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Official MBR Tier List

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MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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wow fox is still above everyone even though clearly tournament results show marth is by far the best character by any sort of practical means?

-_-
i think worldwide tourny results would rate sheik as #1
And looking at matchups sheik is CLEARLY #1
no i think the tier list is fine the way it is, I was saying m2k should back up his claim: if sheik is the best character, why doesn't he win with her?
way to read.
And im saying let people win with whoever they want
This list seriously fixed a lot of things. I mean, Marth was 4th last time, and yet Ken and M2K won consistently with him, he has tons of combos, speed, a good wavedash. I always wondered how marth managed to not be higher. A lot of this list looks better. I think some Mew2 players proved that he actually isn't quite the WORST character ever. Pikachu seemed to low from the beginning, and my favorite and best bottom tier character got promoted! Game and Watch!! The only thing I wonder about is Roy. Have you all seen NEO? Well, I guess since he quit maybe theres no one left advancing Roy's meta game... so sad. He obviously has potential, Roy was the only low tier to be mained by anyone who made it on the "Smash Panel Power Rankings", mained by NEO, of course...
but awesome list
Neo's marth could prolly 4 stock his roy
(except that you can play yourself so that doesnt make any sense, but i hope you get my point anyway >.>)

he loses to jiggs as sheik.

also he never wins tournies with sheik.
Mangos jigglypuff
Drephen and alot of other amazing sheiks have lost to mango's jiggs aswell, does this mean they suck aswell? Off course not
Also puff is high tier >.>
 

Hylian

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I am very pleased with how this list turned out :).
 
D

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This list is okay but like alot of people have already said, its based way too much on tourny results.
Actually, if anything, we're not based on tournament results enough. Let's be realistic, what is the point of a tier list?

A tier list should dictate the likelihood of character performance in a tournament setting given a standardized set of rules, and held constant are the variables of player talent. Since we can see that Marth wins the majority of all high level play tournaments, all other factors disregarded, we should come to the conclusion that Marth will likely place the highest in any given tournament in the future. We've accurately done this, as Marth and Fox are the two highest characters on this particular list. Tier lists should reflect tournament results.
What else is the tier list supposed to represent that doesn't involve tournaments?
 

Zicore

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list is win. Glad to see peach still considered 5th. I think ganon is better, but thats just a personal choice. Good ****.
 

Lethal Beauty

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Amazing. This is it, huh? Some of those placements surprised me, but shows how much I know. ;P
 

Pink Reaper

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What else is the tier list supposed to represent that doesn't involve tournaments?
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

You cannot deal in theoreticals for a tier list this late into a games life. It doesn't matter if sheik COULD do X or SHOULD BE ABLE to do X, the fact of the matter is, Sheik hasn't been winning(as much as Fox/Marth......Falco technically >_>) This is why im still a little annoyed with Doc's placement.
 

BananaHammock

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This list speaks the truth. I didn't think there would ever be a new SSBM list but I guess it's fun to have some change. Small tear for Falco dropping out of the dominant position. Good list. Thanks SBR.
 

SleepyK

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My only complaint is that GnW is so low.
Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeee
 

SuperLink9

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I knew Marth would have to be higher. I didn't notice this before. Nice work.

Pretty chuffed to see that Mewtwo isn't bottom. :p It's also good to see Ice Climberas and Jigglypuff so high.
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
You should explain wtf those numbers are in the first post, I don't want to read through 10 pages to figure it out.

I think everyone but link is in the correct tier (I think he's mid, but it's close enough that I don't really care, I just think he's a little too good for low tier tournies without DK and Luigi). Within tiers, I'd do quite a bit of shuffling around, but there's no way to get everyone to agree on an exact order, so I guess it's fine as long as the justifications for ordering are sound.
 

HiIH

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Awesome. I love how nothing has really changed, but what's eligible for low tier tourneys, yet people will still complain.
 

DippnDots

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Ganon should be higher imo, he has even match up with marth, bad match up vs Sheik/fox/falco/falcon but.. he has good match-ups vs Jiggly/peach/Icy/samus and Doc. He also has a good match-up vs all the characters below him except, Dk and Bowser.

To me anyways, i have had no problems whatsoever vs the matchups I just named.
Eh? I've never had troubles with bowser as ganon, guess i've never run into a good enough bowser.
 

hoopspr226

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i think worldwide tourny results would rate sheik as #1
And looking at matchups sheik is CLEARLY #1
How on earth is Sheik clearly #1 when looking at matchups?
Any way you look at it, she's about as good/perhaps worse than Fox and Falco. Let's compare their respective top tier matchups (since they are the most relevant).

- Sheik has an advantage over one top tier (Marth), a disadvantage to two of them (Fox, Falco), and is even with herself. (Net score = -1)
- Fox is even with himself and Marth, loses to Falco, and beats Sheik. (Net score = 0)
- Falco beats Fox and Sheik, loses to Marth and is even with himself (Net score = +1)

Even adjusting for the fact that Sheik > Marth is perhaps a larger advantage than spacies > Sheik, Sheik's top tier matchups are still about on par with the spacies. In no way, is it CLEARLY #1.

Even when taking into account the high tiers, Sheik is still not CLEARLY #1. These matchups don't really add to your argument because she's even with ICs while Fox has an advantage on all the high tiers.

Even if you want to argue that Sheik is the best (I can accept that you think she's a little better than Fox and Marth), it's pretty clear that she is not a CLEAR #1. Fox, Sheik, and Marth are for all practical purposes tied, and maining one over another doesn't really yield any advantage or disadvantage. You will pretty much beat the exact same people and lose to the exact same people regardless.
 

Megachuk

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Ganon should be higher imo, he has even match up with marth, bad match up vs Sheik/fox/falco/falcon but.. he has good match-ups vs Jiggly/peach/Icy/samus and Doc. He also has a good match-up vs all the characters below him except, Dk and Bowser.

To me anyways, i have had no problems whatsoever vs the matchups I just named.
Ganon ***** bowser and goes about even with DK. BTW, dippindots I'll play you at season's beatings or Middle of Ohio tourney with my bowser.
 

hoopspr226

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A pattern I've noticed:
People (including top pros) tend to underestimate their main and overestimate characters they are bad against. People like believing its them and not their character that contributes more to their wins and its the character and not the opponent that contributes to their losses.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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I meant at all matchups, not just the top tier ones. It is true that the top tier matchups are the most significant... But the point is, she just ***** everyone/everything except fox and falco, where she is at a slight disadvantage.
If you look at the entire tier list, you'll find characters here and there (high/mid tier especially) that have good matchups (or atleast even) against the the top tiers, except sheik. She ***** just ***** everything in her path.
 

greenblob

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Wow, several surprises here. I was expecting Mario, Pika, and Yoshi to be higher. They have good combo potential. Kinda surprised when Luigi and DK made the jump to mid w/o Pika.

Speaking of Luigi and DK, yay! I was waiting for those two (DK especially--mad combos right there) to make the jump.
 

Apples

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The only thing that even remotely surprises me about this list is Peach> Captain Falcon.
Really good list though, I'm all about that middle tier. Luigi & DK > Mario for real. And gratz to Jiggz for 7th, she deserves it.
 

XIF

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The actual numbers and list went to further decimal placings, the only characters that ended up dead even were Jiggs and Falcon, which seems about right to me. There were other small things, but we felt that the hundreths place was not significant enough to warrant it being a topic of debate.

I personally voted mainly by character ability, but I also based alot of it off of tournament placings, when I was either not sure or tournament placings simply outright disproved my initial opinions.

For instance I really think that Fox and Falco are basically the two best characters in the game, but the fact of the matter is that Marth has always done better in tournament, so I voted Fox Marth Falco.

I think Jigglypuffs jump is appropriate. It isnt just mango. Before Mango it was King, and right now Mango and Hungrybox have been doing well enough to warrant such a jump in the tier list. They certainly have outplaced every CF player at those tournaments. And aside from chudat, all other IC players. I think it also reflects her new developments in the metagame. Where there are better edgeguarding strategies and new interesting rest strategies.

Peach has always been in that Limbo of better than the rest but not quite top 4. She has always had middling top placings at tournaments, and I feel that nothing has changed in her metagame to warrant a drop or rise. I mean before it was sastopher and Mike G placing like 5th or so. Then Wife came in for a bit, and in 2005/2006 Vidjo and Xelic were doing hot. Then in 2007/2007 Vidjo and Xelic still did nicely, and I also jumped in there with some top 32 placings and 9th at TGMTSBCO. But there hasnt been any peach player coming in suddenly and doing far better than before unlike with jiggs and mango/hungrybox. It's always been new players maintaining her level of dominance.

The only things I personally disagree with largely is the big gap between Sheik and Falco (there are simply far more Good falcos than sheik), and the gap between Doc and Mario, and Ganon being a bit too low. For the most part, mid tier needs a revamp to something like:

Ganon
Doc
Luigi
Mario
DK

Maybe ganon right below samus or something, because chaddd, linguini, and before that Thomas Tipman (emphasis on tipman) have done well. You also have Kage, and he gets special mention for 3 stocking plairnkks sheik =)

But for the most part everyone in the backroom was fairly pleased. That is certainly a rarity nowadays, to say the least. Everyone had small qualms, but I think the tier list was the first topic of debate that didn't turn nasty <_<;

Well, there's always M2K, but he's delusional. He's sooner have Jigglypuff in her own broken tier with Sheik at the top after that. :rolleyes:

I wish that was a joke.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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^^I think you're forgetting Armada when it comes to Peach players that do really well. He was 3rd at ESA2 iirc.
but i dont know if SBR takes european smash into consideration when they made this.
Actually im pretty sure you don't, not placing sheik on top and all
 

XIF

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^^I think you're forgetting Armada when it comes to Peach players that do really well. He was 3rd at ESA2 iirc.
but i dont know if SBR takes european smash into consideration when they made this.
Actually im pretty sure you don't, not placing sheik on top and all
I have heard great things about armada and his Peach, and I left him out of my example simply because of my more readily available knowledge on the US scene, which is truthfully simply more robust and developed than other regions. (Although I'm fairly sure Armada is up there with our Xelics and such, but he'll never be as good as me!!! >=D) The SBR was generally of the opinion that we would take into consideration the US smash scene only.

I mean, it's hard to construct a valid tier list between version differences in PAL and NTSC. It's like 2 different games (albeit still very very very similar) But things like marth's spike being meteor cancellable and Fox's up smash being less powerful in PAL will change their tier list in ways that do not effect NTSC.

As for Japan, their rulesets (while I think are superior to the US ruleset because of FD only) are just too different, and it is hard to apply tournaments from Japan using FD only to the 15+ stages at most US tournaments.
 

otg

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I don't think saying this is the "final list" is fair. People will continue to play and host melee tournaments and things could change in the future.

I'm just very glad that the SBR updated the list based on the changes that took place in the metagame over the last year or so. This list is pretty accurate, and I'm really glad that DK/Luigi got moved into the midtier.

Fantastic.

Edit:

Question though, why is Samus not in High Tier? Also, Doc > Ganon sorry. Just because more people play Ganon doesn't prove anything.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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which is truthfully simply more robust and developed than other regions.
Really?
Tell me about other regional smash scenes in comparison to the US's and why the US's is more developed.
That would require that you actually know something about other regional scenes though. Whoops.

I don't mind the SBR not taking european or japanese smash scenes into consideration by the way. Like you said there are differences in rulesets, philosophies, how the game is played in general, NTSC and PAL versions etc.
 

BrawlLover

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I don't think saying this is the "final list" is fair. People will continue to play and host melee tournaments and things could change in the future.

I'm just very glad that the SBR updated the list based on the changes that took place in the metagame over the last year or so. This list is pretty accurate, and I'm really glad that DK/Luigi got moved into the midtier.

Fantastic.

Edit:

Question though, why is Samus not in High Tier? Also, Doc > Ganon sorry. Just because more people play Ganon doesn't prove anything.
exactly! there are actually untapped potential!
 

darkatma

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Really?
Tell me about other regional smash scenes in comparison to the US's and why the US's is more developed.
That would require that you actually know something about other regional scenes though. Whoops.

I don't mind the SBR not taking european or japanese smash scenes into consideration by the way. Like you said there are differences in rulesets, philosophies, how the game is played in general, NTSC and PAL versions etc.
it's because we have the better players.

edit:
also because we have a larger country, and more dense population, more tournaments being held locally, more travelling, etc.

don't get me wrong, i love the good swedish smashers like Ek and Sparken and Armada (and Amsah from the Netherlands), but they aren't going to place top against our top.
 

buDinoNC

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hmm, young link is too underrated imo, mb it's cuz it isn't used on competitive tournments, i remember chudat' young link was rly competitive (not like ICs but a lot good). no dubts about marth and fox
 
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yeah I have to say that I think ek and amsah would do just fine over here after they got used to the few (minor) changes of NTSC. Watch a few recent videos, it's not hard to see that they play very smart and very much like our own top players.
 
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