Official Metaknight Discussion

[Overswarm]

I've yet to read a good answer as to why we're OK with banning items and stages that interfere with the top-end game, but banning a character goes too far.

We used arbitrary (and often inconsistent) justifications to ban many items and stages, but numerical and statistical evidence showing MK's ludicrous levels of dominance are simply ignored.

We should play with Smash Balls on or allow Port Town as a CP, because neither of those are "overcentralizing" (lol) and we can't prove they're broken. Some characters' Smash Balls kill instantly or some characters have an easier time obtaining the Smash Ball. "So what?" Maybe these characters are just better, right? Maybe some characters get gayed by the water on Pirate Ship, or maybe it's too easy for some characters to camp the upper platform. Again, I ask: "So what?"

Characters aren't sacred. They can be broken and bannable and undesirable just like items, stages, and infinites that are banned in some areas.. Ban MK.

I enjoy this post. I'd also like an answer.

 

[Espy Rose]

The information comes up after a national because humans, by nature, are emotional creatures. I've heard nonstop complaints and grumbling about MK for a long time now.

This reminded me of something I read in your other thread:

I thought a while back that if I picked up MK, which I did, and started using him in tourney matches, which I did, I would do better... or at least have an easier time beating people, which I did. However, I decided to stick with G&W because so many people don't want me to switch. They like my G&W. I'm one-of-a-kind, or something.

So I did... and after playing through tournament after tournament flooded with MKs (thanks TX) and having to fight so hard so many times... it's just not worth it. People tell me to stay G&W, but they don't know what it's like to play against smart MKs (well maybe they do, but not AS G&W). It's so hard, so annoying. I find in those times I can just switch to MK for MK dittos and do much better with less effort. It makes me feel horrible knowing my favorite character is flat-out hopeless.

Yes, it may be purely off of emotion and personal experience, and has no statistical backing, but I know for **** sure that UTD's not the only one who personally feels this way about Meta Knight.

For example, I feel the exact same way about the entire ordeal.

Hell, that way of thinking may be exactly why some people quit/main Meta Knight.

I'm pretty positive that in a game with (what, 29 characters?)

...39 Characters, when separating Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon, Samus and Zero Suit Samus, and Zelda and Sheik.

 

[Overswarm]

I hit a 2 instead of 3.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Snakeee recently switched to MK, and Dazwa quit the game all together. Top-level mid tier characters are now an endangered species. It isn't just Zac.

 

[Eddie G]

Keep up the good work OS and co. The pro-ban argument is and has been getting stronger while the anti-ban arguments have continually simmered down to mere dismissal topped with Sirlin nut sucking with a hint of "so what?"

 

[Flayl]

What kept Zac from using a secondary?

Hell he could play MK as a secondary.

But I guess that somehow that's too much work? lol.

SFP: Are you seriously suggesting smashballs do not overcentralize?

 

[Nanaki]

Didn't Gness Fliphop win one of the the MK banned HOBOs? If it wasn't him, it was someone else who was unexpected to win.


EDIT: Here are the results from all of the HOBOs with MK banned that I could find:

HOBO 18 <-Razer won
HOBO 17 <-Razer won
HOBO 16 <-Razer won
HOBO 12 <-Fliphop won

That's all of them I think. So yeah, 3 Snake wins and one Diddy win.

I went ahead and did the numbers, even though it's only 4 tournaments. Points assigned like Ankoku's thread, etc.

Results in terms of a % of total points:

Diddy - 36.9%
Snake - 24.7%
Lucario - 7.9%
Marth - 6.3%
Wario - 5.4%
Kirby - 5.3%
DDD - 4.7%
G&W - 4.2%
Toon Link - 1.0%
Falco - 0.9%
ROB - 0.9%
Olimar - 0.9%
Yoshi - 0.8%

Adds up to 99.9, I know. There are several roundings in there to the nearest .1%.

Inconclusive, because of the large lack of data (4 tournaments with 100 entrants or less isn't exactly a huge pool to draw from), but at least there are 2 characters on top instead of 1.

Edit: 36% to 24% is still a pretty large gap, though it may not look like it.

 

[AvaricePanda]

OS, I meant what do the x and y axis represent in those line graphs?

What's the point of posting if you're just going to say the opposition's arguments are bad?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That data doesn't mean anything but it is fascinating nonetheless.

 

[Overswarm]

I went ahead and did the numbers, even though it's only 4 tournaments. Points assigned like Ankoku's thread, etc.

Results in terms of a % of total points:

Diddy - 36.9%
Snake - 24.7%
Lucario - 7.9%
Marth - 6.3%
Wario - 5.4%
Kirby - 5.3%
DDD - 4.7%
G&W - 4.2%
Toon Link - 1.0%
Falco - 0.9%
ROB - 0.9%
Olimar - 0.9%
Yoshi - 0.8%

Adds up to 99.9, I know. There are several roundings in there to the nearest .1%.

Inconclusive, because of the large lack of data (4 tournaments with 100 entrants or less isn't exactly a huge pool to draw from), but at least there are 2 characters on top instead of 1.

Edit: 36% to 24% is still a pretty large gap, though it may not look like it.

My issue is that it's all in the same area. Same players and everything. The only data worthwhile is how well the previous MK mains placed.

OS, I meant what do the x and y axis represent in those line graphs?

What's the point of posting if you're just going to say the opposition's arguments are bad?

The Y axis is number of points, the X axis is different tournaments for each number.

 

[Nicole]

What kept Zac from using a secondary?

Hell he could play MK as a secondary.

But I guess that somehow that's too much work? lol.

SFP: Are you seriously suggesting smashballs do not overcentralize?

MK is never a secondary, because he is better than your main. If you read Zac's post, you'd see that it wasn't too much work to use MK in tournament and that he did better and was able to beat MKs. He simply does not want to use MK because of personal preference.

 

[Eddie G]

What kept Zac from using a secondary?

Hell he could play MK as a secondary.

Do you honestly not see the problem with what you just said? If not then I'm astounded.

 

[Luxor]

We've tried Brawl up until now with MK legal. Why can't we have a six month temporary ban? Consider the findings, the changes in character trends, and then make a final vote after the summer has passed. There is no reason to approach this with an absolute vote now, but rather let us examine the other side of the equation, together as a community. The chief reason that areas do not ban MK, is because other regions do not. Texas's MK play became worse because Hobo didn't allow for MK to be used except once every few months, which lead to Dojo losing his edge. Other areas saw this, and quickly removed any desire to ban MK. No one wants to be the weakest region or state.

Six months. That's all we'd know to come to a proper vote on the subject. To those that claim that the vote must be absolute from the get go, then they are merely showing their childish nativity to the dynamics of rule creation in games. Sports have competition committees that come together and create regulations to make the game maintain popularity and integrity. Many times, the rules that they make are only on an interim basis to test their validity. I'm personally tired of hearing this constantly, and I feel the only way to resolve it would be to have a temporary ban.

Ask yourself this, do we really want to be discussing the MK Ban for another year, or two?

Quoted for truth. We cannot make an informed decision without data- data that we currently do not have.

 

[Espy Rose]

Snakeee recently switched to MK, and Dazwa quit the game all together. Top-level mid tier characters are now an endangered species. It isn't just Zac.

Shugo, one of the better Sonic mains, has also supposedly gone to Falco. Though I've heard through the grapevine that he's also playing, guess who? Meta Knight.

Except that Sonic is low tier, not high-mid like ZSS.

What kept Zac from using a secondary?

Hell he could play MK as a secondary.

But I guess that somehow that's too much work? lol.

Sure, he COULD do that.
But he'd eventually end up just maining Meta Knight anyways, since MK does better against other characters in addition to MK that give G&W match-up trouble.

SFP: Are you seriously suggesting smashballs do not overcentralize?

Technically, you have no statistical proof that they do.

 

[Flayl]

Do you honestly not see the problem with what you just said? If not then I'm astounded.

You do know MK is one of G&W's worst matchups right? Is picking a secondary for a character's worst matchup that astounding to you? Do I need to to draw you a picture?

It doesn't have to be MK.

 

[MarKO X]

SFP: Are you seriously suggesting smashballs do not overcentralize?

There's no hard data that they do overcentralize.
As far as I can tell, they're dominant. That's it.

Edit: Ninja'd. Espy's too fast... maybe I should go back to maining Sonic.

But more on that... there are good Final Smashes and there are bad Final Smashes. Just like in "regular" fighting games, there are good Supers and there are bad Supers. Some characters are better at getting the smashball (some characters are better at filling their super bar) than others. But there is nothing that suggests that Smashballs are overcentralizing.

Just like there is nothing that suggests that MK is overcentralizing...

Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

[Nanaki]

My issue is that it's all in the same area. Same players and everything. The only data worthwhile is how well the previous MK mains placed.

Yep, the names were almost all the same. 1 oddball here or there. Makes the data...pretty uninformative.

There isn't enough data involving MK mains in that tiny set (especially in top8's) to get anything useful.

 

[Eddie G]

Shugo, one of the better Sonic mains, has also supposedly gone to Falco. Though I've heard through the grapevine that he's also playing Meta Knight.

This is true. I've played him in tournament and he used both Falco and MK. No Sonic at all.

You do know MK is one of G&W's worst matchups right? Is picking a secondary for a character's worst matchup that astounding to you? Do I need to to draw you a picture?

Sure, he COULD do that.
But he'd eventually end up just maining Meta Knight anyways, since MK does better against other characters besides MK that give G&W trouble.

Logic says otherwise, my friend.

It doesn't have to be MK.

WEEEEAAAAAK argument. MK is the optimal choice, it would be illogical to select a different character and take the bigger risk of losing. I'm sure logic junkies like yourself can appreciate this fact.

 

[Overswarm]

I've yet to read a good answer as to why we're OK with banning items and stages that interfere with the top-end game, but banning a character goes too far.

We used arbitrary (and often inconsistent) justifications to ban many items and stages, but numerical and statistical evidence showing MK's ludicrous levels of dominance are simply ignored.

We should play with Smash Balls on or allow Port Town as a CP, because neither of those are "overcentralizing" (lol) and we can't prove they're broken. Some characters' Smash Balls kill instantly or some characters have an easier time obtaining the Smash Ball. "So what?" Maybe these characters are just better, right? Maybe some characters get gayed by the water on Pirate Ship, or maybe it's too easy for some characters to camp the upper platform. Again, I ask: "So what?"

Characters aren't sacred. They can be broken and bannable and undesirable just like items, stages, and infinites that are banned in some areas.. Ban MK.

The only answer I've received so far:

ITEMS AND DUMB STAGES ARE RANDOM AND STUPID

okay, it wasn't just that.

ITEMS AND DUMB STAGES ARE RANDOM AND STUPID

Stages like RAINBOW and BRINSTAR do not have normal fields of fighting. We all know you want every stage on like "Lybra" and all this other custom crap you made. Personally I (and many others) want to minimize as many elements out of our control as possible, such as rising and falling LAVA (or acid, whatever). I heard it has a pattern of like 17 combinations or something idk if that's true maybe it's not 17 but many people will agree it's not nearly as much Player vs Player as it is Player vs Stage vs Player or however you want to word that and no one is going to memorize all that stuff anyway. In fact when Bum counterpicked Jungle Japes on me in Melee I was ****** him then got Klap Trapped at 0% and died from that random bull**** (I know it's not TECHNICALLY random but you might as well call it random) and then on Poke Floats next game I fell through seal (or dewgong) at 0% and died from that. That's STUPID. Rainbow is a moving stage that few people have memorized and that one is in my opinion that it should be gone, but people will make rules how they want anyhow.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SFP: Are you seriously suggesting smashballs do not overcentralize?
The point is, that's the game. We change the game to fit our wants and needs as a community on a constant basis. If you were that worried about these things you'd be as worried about MK's dominance as you are about the possibility of Smash Balls overcentralizing. Hell, we banned those before competitive play really even began; we knew virtually nothing about them except that they spawn in random locations and that some characters have really ****ing good Final Smashes; even the times they spawn at aren't random.

But for ****s and giggles, let's say that Smash Balls were legal. They spawn at set intervals and when one player is super-behind another player to help even the game. The latter situation would almost never happen in a three- or four-stock 8-9 minute game, so we can virtually ignore that possibility, but even if we couldn't, other fighting games (you know, the ones that anti-ban reference so often) have similar mechanics, like the ones in SF4 (Ultra attacks). The player who gets the Smash Ball first gains a "Super Attack" and potentially (probably) removes a stock from the opponent. Nothing random has happened; player skill matters, character ability matters. So why are Smash Balls banned?

Again, even if you argued that we try to eliminate random elements, these are still global changes we've made to the game to preserve, for lack of a better phrase, a "standard of play" in Brawl that we arbitrarily chose based on... what? Our whims? Thin air? Because we certainly didn't choose to eliminate elements we deem random or "stupid" based on statistical analysis or even a stupid pie chart.

There's no hard data that they do overcentralize.
As far as I can tell, they're dominant. That's it.

Also, this.

 

[Flayl]

Sure, he COULD do that.
But he'd eventually end up just maining Meta Knight anyways, since MK does better against other characters besides MK that give G&W trouble.

According to this thread G&W has several matchups where he's better in than MK. Unless of course MK's are understimating themselves and G&W's overrating?

Technically, you have no statistical proof that they do.

Simple testing shows that they do... I mean you could run tournaments but the results are so obvious it's a waste of time.

It's like asking to run several tournaments showing Dedede shuts down DK... You don't have to when the statistics are pretty clear.

edit: Jack Kieser has tested smashballs and he's come to the conclusion that they do in fact overcentralize. You can read about it in his thread about ISP.

 

[Overswarm]

Simple testing shows that they do... I mean you could run tournaments but the results are so obvious it's a waste of time.

It's like asking to run several tournaments showing Dedede shuts down DK... You don't have to when the statistics are pretty clear.

We have run tournaments and the results are generally pretty standard around here. Sonic is top tier, btw.

 

[Flayl]

We have run tournaments and the results are generally pretty standard around here. Sonic is top tier, btw.

Good for you? I don't know what I'm supposed to say about that. Glad someone ran that kind of tournament?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

edit: double post see below

 

[Flayl]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263082

????

What are you doing?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

edit: Jack Kieser has tested smashballs and he's come to the conclusion that they do in fact overcentralize. You can read about it in his thread about ISP.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263082

????

My response to that would be basically your response to the above thread: sure, you've proven they're dominant, but are they "overcentralizing?"

By the way, it doesn't actually matter of MK is overcentralizing. We have all we need to ban him based solely on the fact that we have to microban individual parts of him to make him balanced enough for tourney play.

 

[Nanaki]

If Smashballs overcentralize, who exactly (besides Sonic) do they overcentralize towards? Falco? And is the overcentralization more or less profound than MK's domination?

If it's not more of a centralizing factor than MK is, I'm calling shenanigans on the 'standards' of competitive play in this game as a whole.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If Smashballs overcentralize, who exactly (besides Sonic) do they overcentralize towards? Falco? And is the overcentralization more or less profound than MK's domination?

If it's not more of a centralizing factor than MK is, I'm calling shenanigans on the 'standards' of competitive play in this game as a whole.

Even if it was, "So What?"

In this hypothetical universe where they were legal, if you didn't like it, you could just not play or switch to a character that handles smash balls better, or play a better game.

 

[MarKO X]

Sonic is top tier, btw.

Lol @ taking things out of context. This is soooooooo siggable.

Remember memphischains?

 

[Frolossus]

We don't need a thread to "talk" about mk.
We need action!

 

[Flayl]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263082

????

My response to that would be basically your response to the above thread: sure, you've proven they're dominant, but are they "overcentralizing?"

I'd say having an invincible long lasting final smash with 2-3 hit KO's is overcentralizing, yes...

There is no comparison here, stop pretending there is.

 

[Eddie G]

Hmm...does anyone else notice a double standard regarding bans or is it just me? :/

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'd say having an invincible long lasting final smash with 2-3 hit KO's is overcentralizing, yes...

There is no comparison here, stop pretending there is.

Actually, that's entirely subjective. Also, if you don't like it, you could just play a different game or pick a character better at dealing with Smash Balls, just like you can pick MK or pick a different character if you don't like getting chaingrabbed forever.

 

[Nanaki]

Even if it was, "So What?"

In this hypothetical universe where they were legal, if you didn't like it, you could just not play or switch to a character that handles smash balls better, or play a better game.

Yeah, that's kinda the point. There's no consistency there.

I'd say having an invincible long lasting final smash with 2-3 hit KO's is overcentralizing, yes...

There is no comparison here, stop pretending there is.

Overcentralizing towards what? Smashballs themselves?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

According to this thread G&W has several matchups where he's better in than MK. Unless of course MK's are understimating themselves and G&W's overrating?


Simple testing shows that they do... I mean you could run tournaments but the results are so obvious it's a waste of time.

It's like asking to run several tournaments showing Dedede shuts down DK... You don't have to when the statistics are pretty clear.

edit: Jack Kieser has tested smashballs and he's come to the conclusion that they do in fact overcentralize. You can read about it in his thread about ISP.

All right... Now how does a Beam Sword overcentralize the metagame? How does Mario Bros overcentralize the metagame? How do Gooey Bombs, Bumpers, etc overcentralize the metagame? How does FOOD ON LOW overcentralize the metagame?

Essentially, the the anti-ban argument for banning is, "it has to overcentralize". If a tournament had, say, food on low set up, would it overcentralize the game towards sonic, who can pick up food way faster than anyone else?

@KB: This is a problem.

Anti-ban: 0
Pro-ban: 100

 

[Eddie G]

Also, if you don't like it, you could just play a different game or pick a character better at dealing with Smash Balls.

Do you enjoy eating your own words, anti-ban?

 

[Espy Rose]

This is true. I've played him in tournament and he used both Falco and MK. No Sonic at all.

Well, that's a **** shame.

Lol @ taking things out of context. This is soooooooo siggable.

Remember memphischains?

He'd have a fit. I'm conflicted in sigging that quote...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, that's kinda the point. There's no consistency there.

Yeah there is, we are "consistently" banning things that are popular among a select few players with no, uh, consistency at all.

MK is certainly bannable based on current precedent. Ban him.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

My issue is that it's all in the same area. Same players and everything. The only data worthwhile is how well the previous MK mains placed.

The characters in parentheses are the characters they normally use (to the best of my knowledge).

HOBO 18:

Lee Martin (MK/Lucario)->3rd.
Inui (MK)->9th
Dphat (MK/Marth iirc)->13th
Light (MK, ROB, Sheik)->17th

Those are the only people in the top 9, beyond that I don't know.

HOBO 17:

Dojo (MK)->3rd
Lee Martin (MK/Lucario)->5th
Light (MK, ROB, Sheik)->33rd


HOBO 16:

Dojo (MK)->4th
Dphat (MK, Marth)->7th
Romeo (MK/Snake I think)->13th
Light (MK, ROB, Sheik->13th

HOBO 12:

Lee Martin (MK/Lucario)->2nd
Dojo (MK)->9th
D4BA (MK, Snake, Falco)->17th
Sandtrao (MK)->17th


There you go.

 

[Flayl]

Actually, that's entirely subjective. Also, if you don't like it, you could just play a different game or pick a character better at dealing with Smash Balls, just like you can pick MK or pick a different character if you don't like getting chaingrabbed forever.

See, you and King Beef are being irrational now. I've pointed out why your comparison doesn't work, it's up to you 2 to stop and think now. I can't make you think, although I wish I could.

BPC, none of those items have anything to do with what we're talking about, if you're interested in seeing if they overcentralize or not I suggest looking at Jack Keiser's thread.