Official Metaknight Discussion

[UltiMario]

-"C rank" borderline characters placements in tournament (basically anyone who got wrecked by MK before, how are they doing now)

With maybe one or two exceptions, they'll do as well in tournies as they normally did, except you remove all the slots with "MK" on them, bar a few (The MK mains that actually bother going with this and not just waiting out the 6 months or whatever). Why?

Because they're C Rank for a reason. Not because MK is the best and most common character in the game, its because they're mediocre as characters.

Higher tiered character will still get their leads, some like Marth and DDD even moreso, shutting out many C-tiered and lower characters.



Just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[Ax00x0]

Basically, it's a prolonged exercise in contemplating our navels.

Indeed, what a mess. Still, I salute you for fighting the good ight. I can only hope something substantial comes from all of this.

Snake is my most practiced matchup, just like Fox is in Melee. I honestly think the only reason MK is so used so much is because he's easier to pick up at a lower level, and since people talk about him so much everyone is like oh I guess I'll use him too. If he was really so broken then the top of the metagame would be MKs dominating, not me/ally/adhd/dehf dominating everything almost all of the time

Have you been reading what has been posted at all? This has already been overed-you guys, the PLAYERS, are on a completely elite level-it virtually dsn't matte who you play,y ou're going to place (case n point, Ally with Falcon). Seeing you or any of the others in the top ranks is not a surprise and means absolutely nothing in terms of how good a character is. it's the other people in the top 10 that's worrying, and when those are time and tie again MK users, then we do have a metagam question, as well as problem.

Which is what you and others have made very clearly-far too much of this community basis the whole thing around what MAYBE 1% of the players do. That's a zero sum game-it's like basing US policy around trends of the billionaires, while ignoring the other but less rich, middle class, andpoor. It doesn't show anything.

With maybe one or two exceptions, they'll do as well in tournies as they normally did, except you remove all the slots with "MK" on them, bar a few (The MK mains that actually bother going with this and not just waiting out the 6 months or whatever). Why?

Because they're C Rank for a reason. Not because MK is the best and most common character in the game, its because they're mediocre as characters.

Higher tiered character will still get their leads, some like Marth and DDD even moreso, shutting out C-tiered and lower characters.



Just wanted to throw that out there.

Not really-for example, I mostly main Pit, who has even matchups and is more than able to beat Snake, Falco, DDD, ICs, ROB, and others. the problem is, C characters usually run into MKs early tourney, and never make it farther than that, because the matchup againt Mk just isn't realistic. This has been my personal experince as well, which just causes people to pick higher tier characters (if not MK), just to compete. It's an endless cycle that results in only a handful of characters being played. With MK dropped, I can honestly see a rise in C line players, especially B ranks. Hell, I'll be one of those people.

 

[Masmasher@]

Im not throwing the "get better" saying out there but doesnt every sport have "outliers"

 

[iRJi]

With maybe one or two exceptions, they'll do as well in tournies as they normally did, except you remove all the slots with "MK" on them, bar a few (The MK mains that actually bother going with this and not just waiting out the 6 months or whatever). Why?

Because they're C Rank for a reason. Not because MK is the best and most common character in the game, its because they're mediocre as characters.

Higher tiered character will still get their leads, some like Marth and DDD even moreso, shutting out many C-tiered and lower characters.



Just wanted to throw that out there.

This is absurd LOLOLOL. I don't even know how you look at this and say this is almost a valid statement.

 

[Eddie G]

Im not throwing the "get better" saying out there but doesnt every sport have "outliers"

You mean like LeBron, Kobe, and Wade in the NBA? That sort of thing?

 

[iRJi]

If it's ok with everyone, How about I rewrite up my temp ban proposal. As far as this goes, this is the most agreement we are getting on the situation. I think we need to stop bashing each other, and start compromising.

If everyone is up to it, I'll rewrite it. From there, we can come t an understanding on what to look for, and how to go about this properly without jeopardizing the community.

 

[UltiMario]

So you're saying that just because MK is gone, C Tier characters are going to suddenly rule the world?

You've forgotten how horridly unbalanced Brawl is, RJ.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

people need to understand one concept


when dealing with METAgame u deal with the top levels of play.


that doesnt necassarily include the players that get 4th-9th consistantly, in most cases it means the opposite, the players that get 1-3.

If the players getting 1-3 ARENT MK, MK, MK at every national tourny, why is there a mk discussion thread in the tactical discussion boards?


metagame is top players, not the people just below the top players, or one further, the people below the good players, or once further, the casual players.

we only look at the best of the best.



which as it stands goes


Mk, Snake, Diddy, Falco. in a MIXED order, one of which the diddy has most recently been coming out on top. so because there's more mk's than diddy means mk gets banned?

did sheik get banned in melee cuz of her ease of use at the beginning? or did people get used to it? didn't fox end up passing her on the tier list EVEN THO he was much much harder to use?



im not reading this whole thread, and prolly wont even read past this one post i make. when someone decides to refute my statments, if they care enough for a rebuttle from me, they can PM me. anything arguing my statements in this actual thread in my mind is null and void, and is only conceding the arguement, since i'll be unsubscribing from the thread the minute i click post.



-post-

 

[iRJi]

So you're saying that just because MK is gone, C Tier characters are going to suddenly rule the world?

You've forgotten how horridly unbalanced Brawl is, RJ.

No, i didnt forget. I am just saying this is not applicable without knowing what the metagame would become if MK was gone. Everything will shift depending on what characters rise up and what characters go down.

Again: I say this:

If it's ok with everyone, How about I rewrite up my temp ban proposal. As far as this goes, this is the most agreement we are getting on the situation. I think we need to stop bashing each other, and start compromising.

If everyone is up to it, I'll rewrite it. From there, we can come t an understanding on what to look for, and how to go about this properly without jeopardizing the community.
__________________

im just gunna repost it until i get responses to it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So you're saying that just because MK is gone, C Tier characters are going to suddenly rule the world?

You've forgotten how horridly unbalanced Brawl is, RJ.

If you have a bad matchup in marth/ROB/Snake, oh well. Not the end of the world. If you have a bad matchup in a character with about half the tournament use in the entire game, it's bound to be absurdly crippling. You're gonna run into a lot of MK! There's no denying this. Remove MK from the situation and maybe they aren't as good as some top tiers, but they are certainly waaaay more viable.

 

[Overswarm]

Alright, thanks. I just wanted more answers as to what you were looking for in a temp-ban, not just, "oh let's see what happens." That's all seems pretty reasonable.

Otherwise I also agree with adum about redoing the way we think of match-ups. Even if it's a completely seperate issue it seems like something that needs to happen.

We're currently redoing the way MUs are done in the BBR as well, it's just slow going. There are a lot of them!

If you want to see some of the data I've collected that we can look at when the temp ban goes up, check out these threads:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9577148&postcount=5226

It's a lot of reading, but you can go skim them to get a general idea.


It's unfortunate that we can't realiably say what will happen with an MK ban, but all the data shows players out-performing characters. There's no consistency to non-MK mains at all except that Snake does better than most other characters, and Diddy slightly better, at least on an overall basis. Other than that, it is literally up in the air with no consistent trends.

 

[Masmasher@]

You mean like LeBron, Kobe, and Wade in the NBA? That sort of thing?

Yeah.
Its strange. do we disregard the fact completely that these few people have done the "impossible". Sure there is much much more then them that needs to be put into account fo the ban but I would like to know where these "outliers" fall within this decision.
Player skill is not quantitative but their merit should acccount for something.

 

[Eddie G]

So you're saying that just because MK is gone, C Tier characters are going to suddenly rule the world?

You've forgotten how horridly unbalanced Brawl is, RJ.

And you underestimate just how well most C tiers can perform against the top characters (excluding MK). Notable examples of characters who are borderline viable but get hammered down by MK (assuming the MK knows the respectable matchup and can exploit his advantages) are Peach, Lucario, Toon Link, Kirby, ZSS, Pikachu, Sonic (possibly), and more.

I don't advise claiming Brawl to be "horridly unbalanced" if we haven't yet explored an option (you know that I'm talking about) that could possibly result in the game becoming respectably balanced overall. And why? Conservatism? Sticking to what may be outdated principles? You tell me.

 

[MarKO X]

i obviously didn't read this thread.

ok. if you say so.
it's too bad that OS countered this.

 

[UltiMario]

@Seibrik- At this point give up, I've already brought up the point myself, Pro-bans don't give a crap.

@RJ- Well, what do you think is going to happen, the Metagame is going to flip upside-down from MK being gone, or are there only going to be just a handful of shifts?

Anyone with common sense would go for the latter.



Oh, and for those collecting data (OS adur), I know you probably have already thought of this, but PLEASE remember to take into account that fact that if MK gets Temp banned, that you're cutting off nearly a third of the metagame. I don't want to walk into some thread full of BS later.


Edit: @KB- You can't ban MK to balance Brawl, Brawl has a sizable chunk of complete trash characters. You can't balance the bottom, only the tippy top.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

people need to understand one concept


when dealing with METAgame u deal with the top levels of play.


that doesnt necassarily include the players that get 4th-9th consistantly, in most cases it means the opposite, the players that get 1-3.

If the players getting 1-3 ARENT MK, MK, MK at every national tourny, why is there a mk discussion thread in the tactical discussion boards?


metagame is top players, not the people just below the top players, or one further, the people below the good players, or once further, the casual players.

we only look at the best of the best.



which as it stands goes


Mk, Snake, Diddy, Falco. in a MIXED order, one of which the diddy has most recently been coming out on top. so because there's more mk's than diddy means mk gets banned?

did sheik get banned in melee cuz of her ease of use at the beginning? or did people get used to it? didn't fox end up passing her on the tier list EVEN THO he was much much harder to use?



im not reading this whole thread, and prolly wont even read past this one post i make. when someone decides to refute my statments, if they care enough for a rebuttle from me, they can PM me. anything arguing my statements in this actual thread in my mind is null and void, and is only conceding the arguement, since i'll be unsubscribing from the thread the minute i click post.



-post-

This again? Read the thread; being broken isn't the only reason to ban something. If you objectively stare at the metagame, you ignore the bottom 99.999%. Let me put it to this way-imagine you go to a national and win, and you get 100 bucks. Not 5000, not 1000, 100. This is because the bottom 99.9% has decided they are sick of giving you money because you obviously don't care about them. Dramatization, sure, but this is basically why you can't shove this off that way.

 

[Dark Fawful]

He was sent to losers by Ksizzle in MK dittos. Before that the only set he won against with MK was Cable (a DK whom he would've beaten with Snake too).

HE LOST TO VEX' BOWSER WITH MK AND DESTROYED HIM AFTERWARDS WITH SNAKE

He beat Seibrik with Snake
He beat Havok with Snake
He beat Ksizzle in revenge with Snake after losing to him with MK
He lost to M2K on game 5 with M2K running the clock.

All his important wins were with Snake. MK shouldn't even be next to his name.

Ksizzle beat him in winners in mk dittos and his snake on halberd.

 

[Mew2King]

I know ADHD plays Wifi a lot and gets a variety of MU exp, more MK than others but I don't know %ages obviously, and I know that I play the game more than Ally does because I talk with him about it. DEHF I do not know. I do know they are against banning him though. You do not know much of what you are talking about with reference to them.

 

[MarKO X]

lol @ mentioning the NBA.

I just wanna randomly mention the 2007 NBA Playoffs.

Lebron went in. Detroit Pistons didn't know the matchup against Lebron. Literally, in one game (game 5 of that best 4 of 7 series), Lebron scored more points than the entire Piston's team in the final 7 or 8 minutes of the game (2 or 3 minutes of regulation plus overtime), 29-25. Then Cavs won game 6 and went to the NBA Finals.

Spurs 4-0'd the Cavs.

This is actually a pointless post... but I think that someone might get something out of that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I know ADHD plays Wifi a lot and gets a variety of MU exp, more MK than others but I don't know %ages obviously, and I know that I play the game more than Ally does because I talk with him about it. DEHF I do not know. I do know they are against banning him though. You do not know much of what you are talking about with reference to them.

I know common sense, which dictates that with about half of the metagame being MK, you will die if you aren't good against MK.

 

[Spelt]

saying that MK makes up 1/3 of the meta game and saying he shouldn't be banned in the same post is hilarious to me.

 

[Mew2King]

You will die if you aren't good against Fox in melee too. I got good against Fox in melee.

 

[Overswarm]

So you're saying that just because MK is gone, C Tier characters are going to suddenly rule the world?

You've forgotten how horridly unbalanced Brawl is, RJ.

All the data I've collected shows a very tight-nit group of characters with Diddy being slightly ahead, all the way down through C rank. Snake is a bit farther ahead, and MK is waaaay ahead.

Most C rank characters are literally forced into C rank because of MK. D rank and below have consistent bad matchups with virtually everyone above them.

people need to understand one concept


when dealing with METAgame u deal with the top levels of play.


that doesnt necassarily include the players that get 4th-9th consistantly, in most cases it means the opposite, the players that get 1-3.

If the players getting 1-3 ARENT MK, MK, MK at every national tourny, why is there a mk discussion thread in the tactical discussion boards?


metagame is top players, not the people just below the top players, or one further, the people below the good players, or once further, the casual players.

we only look at the best of the best.



which as it stands goes


Mk, Snake, Diddy, Falco. in a MIXED order, one of which the diddy has most recently been coming out on top. so because there's more mk's than diddy means mk gets banned?

did sheik get banned in melee cuz of her ease of use at the beginning? or did people get used to it? didn't fox end up passing her on the tier list EVEN THO he was much much harder to use?



im not reading this whole thread, and prolly wont even read past this one post i make. when someone decides to refute my statments, if they care enough for a rebuttle from me, they can PM me. anything arguing my statements in this actual thread in my mind is null and void, and is only conceding the arguement, since i'll be unsubscribing from the thread the minute i click post.

None of this is true, and you don't post in the BBR at all nor contribute so I don't think you can say what the BBR does in any way shape or form.

I've looked at the "top players", the top 8 of every tournament with 150+ players and then again with 100+ players from the beginning of Brawl. MK shows continued dominance, and Snake is a huge step below him with everyone else a huge step below Snake.

Basically, everything you said was wrong and is based off of... nothing at all, really. Maybe you had one or two tournaments in mind, I'm not particularly sure.

 

[Spelt]

You will die if you aren't good against Fox in melee too. I got good against Fox in melee.

...or sheik and marth.
and jigglypuff.

 

[Kaffei]

saying that MK makes up 1/3 of the meta game and saying he shouldn't be banned in the same post is hilarious to me.

Adapt .

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You will die if you aren't good against Fox in melee too. I got good against Fox in melee.

M2K, does the term "outlier" mean anything to you?

Also, in melee, there were 4-6 chars where you either knew the matchup or you lost. Not one. You were guaranteed to run into a few peaches, a few foxes, a few sheiks... not 5-6 foxes in brackets, and maybe one CF.

Also, fox had weaknesses and, arguably, bad matchups.

 

[Mew2King]

All you do is bring up genesis and pound4 over and over again and ignore everything that doesn't support your case. Your charts are extremely biased and presented in a way it would be to sell something to people on commercials. I've already explained that I'm a huge reason for the MK dominance and the easy to pick up + everyone thinking they have to pick him up is making his numbers greater than the would be otherwise. People even go MK and lose then have MK next to their name then points added to your chart for that stupid **** which should not ever count. And what Seibrik said most of it is true. The top 4 in this game right now are me/ally/adhd/dehf

@ spelt - there are like no more sheiks or marths anymore. Jiggs is only used by Mango/Hbox. Everywhere I go in Melee I see Fox/Falco being played by everyone. Even C.falcon is more common than Marth and Sheik

 

[iRJi]

again I will post this until i get reponses:

If it's ok with everyone, How about I rewrite up my temp ban proposal. As far as this goes, this is the most agreement we are getting on the situation. I think we need to stop bashing each other, and start compromising.

If everyone is up to it, I'll rewrite it. From there, we can come t an understanding on what to look for, and how to go about this properly without jeopardizing the community.
__________________

 

[Masmasher@]

lol @ mentioning the NBA.

I just wanna randomly mention the 2007 NBA Playoffs.

Lebron went in. Detroit Pistons didn't know the matchup against Lebron. Literally, in one game (game 5 of that best 4 of 7 series), Lebron scored more points than the entire Piston's team in the final 7 or 8 minutes of the game (2 or 3 minutes of regulation plus overtime), 29-25. Then Cavs won game 6 and went to the NBA Finals.

Spurs 4-0'd the Cavs.

This is actually a pointless post... but I think that someone might get something out of that.

its hard to apply that cause basketball is more of a team sport but i sorta see what you're saying.
LOL i remember watching the finals. I raged so much

 

[Mew2King]

Also, fox had weaknesses and, arguably, bad matchups.

WOW you just lost all possible credibility

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

again I will post this until i get reponses:

If it's ok with everyone, How about I rewrite up my temp ban proposal. As far as this goes, this is the most agreement we are getting on the situation. I think we need to stop bashing each other, and start compromising.

If everyone is up to it, I'll rewrite it. From there, we can come t an understanding on what to look for, and how to go about this properly without jeopardizing the community.
__________________

I completely support this.

All you do is bring up genesis and pound4 over and over again and ignore everything that doesn't support your case. Your charts are extremely biased and presented in a way it would be to sell something to people on commercials. I've already explained that I'm a huge reason for the MK dominance and the easy to pick up + everyone thinking they have to pick him up is making his numbers greater than the would be otherwise. People even go MK and lose then have MK next to their name then points added to your chart for that stupid **** which should not ever count. And what Seibrik said most of it is true. The top 4 in this game right now are me/ally/adhd/dehf

@ spelt - there are like no more sheiks or marths anymore. Jiggs is only used by Mango/Hbox. Everywhere I go in Melee I see Fox/Falco being played by everyone. Even C.falcon is more common than Marth and Sheik

The community is not going to put the top 4 (judging from SSBB sales, about the top 0.0005%) in front of the top 1%. >.> It isn't about banning MK because he's broken.

EDIT: All right, I'm going to be more charitable... the sales figure I pulled up was 875k or something, let's use 100k, which is 60k less than smashboards (adjusted slightly for non-brawl players, puppet accounts, etc.)... Whoa. You guys are STILL 0.004%. And we're supposed to put your wishes above everything else.

 

[ADHD]

Adapt .

Because you are worth it - L’Oreal Cosmetics

 

[Overswarm]

All you do is bring up genesis and pound4 over and over again and ignore everything that doesn't support your case. Your charts are extremely biased and presented in a way it would be to sell something to people on commercials. I've already explained that I'm a huge reason for the MK dominance and the easy to pick up + everyone thinking they have to pick him up is making his numbers greater than the would be otherwise. People even go MK and lose then have MK next to their name then points added to your chart for that stupid **** which should not ever count. And what Seibrik said most of it is true. The top 4 in this game right now are me/ally/adhd/dehf

@ spelt - there are like no more sheiks or marths anymore. Jiggs is only used by Mango/Hbox. Everywhere I go in Melee I see Fox/Falco being played by everyone. Even C.falcon is more common than Marth and Sheik

How is using every tournament with 100 or more players from the start of Brawl to the current data ignoring data?

 

[Pierce7d]

Uh, you say yourself that Fox loses to Jiggs, and we all know Fox being gimpable is his weakness.

 

[JesiahTEG]

lmao i ****ing love mew2king LMAOOOOOOOOOOO i miss you

Also pierce, with Fox's ridiculous angles, ability to shorten side b, tech to instant phantasm, airdodging options, ability to shine in stall...A good fox is hard to gimp nowadays

 

[Mew2King]

Fox vs Jiggs / Fox vs Falco / Fox vs Marth are all about 50:50 on neutrals. Jiggs beats Fox because she has auto-win brinstar allowed where if you ban that she can pick DL64 and never die and KO you at 10 damage still and tie a game up that you're winning with very little effort or get an easy lead. Corneria is never allowed on anymore, and neither is Green Greens.

 

[iRJi]

Fox vs Jiggs / Fox vs Falco / Fox vs Marth are all about 50:50 on neutrals. Jiggs beats Fox because she has auto-win brinstar allowed where if you ban that she can pick DL64 and never die and KO you at 10 damage still and tie a game up that you're winning with very little effort or get an easy lead. Corneria is never allowed on anymore, and neither is Green Greens.

So... What you are saying is fox has a bad matchup? or are they just 50:50's lol. the first part says all 50:50, but then you say Jiggs beats fox.

Careful what you say btw, =]

 

[Masmasher@]

Why did they take off coneria?

 

[iRJi]

Bleh forget it. It's not important. Brawl talk time.
--------------------------

If it's ok with everyone, How about I rewrite up my temp ban proposal. As far as this goes, this is the most agreement we are getting on the situation. I think we need to stop bashing each other, and start compromising.

If everyone is up to it, I'll rewrite it. From there, we can come t an understanding on what to look for, and how to go about this properly without jeopardizing the community.

Again, I ask for your input.

you wouldn't see it so much if you would just answer it =]

 

[Mew2King]

Jiggs does beat Fox slightly with the rules right now. On neutrals, the MU is stage dependent. Fox wins cuz of Green Greens and Corneria, which are off now, but Brinstar is still legal. I think Jiggs has a small advantage because of current ruleset (stages mostly). That doesn't mean it's a bad MU, it's just a gay one