Official Metaknight Discussion

[etecoon]

I think the Metaknight mains would be just as rusty from not playing as their character... <_<

considering that you need to be more experienced and outplay the other player considerably in order to beat meta knight to begin with, sending things back to the beginning is not a wash.

 

[salaboB]

considering that you need to be more experienced and outplay the other player considerably in order to beat meta knight to begin with, sending things back to the beginning is not a wash.

People don't forget everything they know instantly.

They may be a little rusty, but it should come back quickly.

 

[MarKO X]

People don't forget everything they know instantly.

They may be a little rusty, but it should come back quickly.

yeah, all they gotta do is plank.

MLG picking up Brawl does make this whole ban MK way more interesting.

I hope that they don't ban MK, leave the rules as is, and have some random person plank the f**k out of the entire competition, just to make anti-ban look like clowns.

Of course, the best course of action is to ban MK outright.... inb4subjective.

 

[Kaffei]

yeah, all they gotta do is plank.

MLG picking up Brawl does make this whole ban MK way more interesting.

I hope that they don't ban MK, leave the rules as is, and have some random person plank the f**k out of the entire competition, just to make anti-ban look like clowns.

Of course, the best course of action is to ban MK outright.... inb4subjective.

What if they put a ledge grab rule

 

[OverLade]

Lol@people who still think Ledgegrab rules will make a difference.

 

[Kaffei]

Lol@people who still think Ledgegrab rules will make a difference.

Don't lol @ me and explain to me why they won't work =(

 

[Spelt]

Seriously, that's the funniest pro-ban argument out there, its right up with the anti-ban argument "It will make us look bad to SRK."

i thought it was more like the "next you'll be saying snake needs to be banned!" one.

 

[salaboB]

Don't lol @ me and explain to me why they won't work =(

Because any ledge grab count that won't restrict normal ledge play can be abused to plank for significant time periods anyway.

 

[MarKO X]

the ledge grab rule DOES make a difference... it limits planking.

without the ledge grab rule, even if you don't plank the entire game, you can plank enough to annoy the hell out of your opponent. With your opponent annoyed and impatient, anger will cloud his judgment and he will blindly rush to his death. Making your opponent blindly rush to their death due to their impatience is a legit strategy.

however, the ledge grab rule limits how long you can plank due to that number, whatever it may be. and since it is clear to everyone now, thanks to DMG, that MK's planking is not only legit, but super-legit, any ledge grab rule is basically saying, "Yeah, MK is broken, but we still want MK in the game."

 

[Kaffei]

Then instead of making the rule "if you time out the person and you have over 30 ledge grabs, you lose", make it "if you have over 30 ledge grabs no matter what, you lose".

Idk

 

[MarKO X]

it still translates to, "MK is broken, but we still want him in the game."

and apparently, people already do that.

 

[Sosuke]

without the ledge grab rule, even if you don't plank the entire game, you can plank enough to annoy the hell out of your opponent. With your opponent annoyed and impatient, anger will cloud his judgment and he will blindly rush to his death. Making your opponent blindly rush to their death due to their impatience is a legit strategy.

Maybe at low levels of play.

 

[Kaffei]

it still translates to, "MK is broken, but we still want him in the game."

and apparently, people already do that.

You already said that like 5 billion times. I get it.

 

[The Brigand]

From what I've seen most Brawl matches don't come within 2 minutes of the time limit, and the ones that do usually involve lots of stalling. Remove the time limit for matches, actually enforce the stalling rule, and keep the ledge grab rule at 40-50 ledge grabs.

The first removes the real reason to plank (forcing time out and winning by default), the second is something that needs to be taken seriously regardless, and the third puts a serious penalty on planking on top of the stalling rule (only suggesting it because of stories I've heard about stalling punishments amounting to "stop stalling please").

Now somebody point out how this won't work so I can get the idea out of my head altogether.

 

[MarKO X]

Maybe at low levels of play.

Anger can cloud anyone's judgment, regardless of "play level."

From what I've seen most Brawl matches don't come within 2 minutes of the time limit, and the ones that do usually involve lots of stalling. Remove the time limit for matches, actually enforce the stalling rule, and keep the ledge grab rule at 40-50 ledge grabs.

The first removes the real reason to plank (forcing time out and winning by default), the second is something that needs to be taken seriously regardless, and the third puts a serious penalty on planking on top of the stalling rule (only suggesting it because of stories I've heard about stalling punishments amounting to "stop stalling please").

Now somebody point out how this won't work so I can get the idea out of my head altogether.

It might work, it might not.
But why did you come up with this series of rules again?

 

[Kaffei]

From what I've seen most Brawl matches don't come within 2 minutes of the time limit, and the ones that do usually involve lots of stalling. Remove the time limit for matches, actually enforce the stalling rule, and keep the ledge grab rule at 40-50 ledge grabs.

The first removes the real reason to plank (forcing time out and winning by default), the second is something that needs to be taken seriously regardless, and the third puts a serious penalty on planking on top of the stalling rule (only suggesting it because of stories I've heard about stalling punishments amounting to "stop stalling please").

Now somebody point out how this won't work so I can get the idea out of my head altogether.

Isn't it bad to remove the timer because then people can still just take a longer time and play safer, meaning tourneys would be longer = inefficient?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think the Metaknight mains would be just as rusty from not playing as their character... <_<

True, but the point is that it will stall, therefore it will accomplish nothing for that purpose.

They'll learn the MU again. Fast.

Since any major tournament that was reintroducing MK would likely advertise that fact ahead of time as well, anyone serious would spend some time practicing and regain their anti-MK techniques.

Did you ever spend time fighting Dr. Mario, before stopping and letting your techniques slip? Or are you bad against him because you never had a way (Or reason, as appropriate) to get good against him in the first place?

Your point sounded more to me like new techniques wouldn't be found against MK (And I think practicing/MM's would test any new character techniques against him) though, not so much people forgetting how to fight. However I don't think that's really a major problem either.

You're missing the point, I'm not saying that MK players will do better, I said NO SUBSTANTIAL CHANGE.


There's a major major difference.


Metagame advances don't come from new techniques appearing out of the blue, they come from people learning how to apply the techniques in matches. Often these are existing techs, sometimes they're brand new, but in general, people will become used to a metagame without MK, and what will that accomplish? More then likely, any new techniques will take long enough to apply to MK that it won't be substantial.


Unless something truly gamechanging comes out (which is unlikely), then a temp ban is meaningless in terms of helping other metagames advance.


It's for data collection if it happens, to make a decision on whether or not MK will be banned permanently.

From what I've seen most Brawl matches don't come within 2 minutes of the time limit, and the ones that do usually involve lots of stalling. Remove the time limit for matches, actually enforce the stalling rule, and keep the ledge grab rule at 40-50 ledge grabs.

The first removes the real reason to plank (forcing time out and winning by default), the second is something that needs to be taken seriously regardless, and the third puts a serious penalty on planking on top of the stalling rule (only suggesting it because of stories I've heard about stalling punishments amounting to "stop stalling please").

Now somebody point out how this won't work so I can get the idea out of my head altogether.

I'm playing I'm playing Zelda vs. Pikachu, what's my reason to approach... ever? What's pikachu's reason, neither character can force the other, and they make themselves vulnerable, so why?

That's why timers are there, to force a conclusion.

 

[ElDominio]

it still translates to, "MK is broken, but we still want him in the game."

and apparently, people already do that.

QFT

Sure, make rules to limit MK.

By making character specific rules, it basically admits that "this SPECIFIC character needs limiting in this area", which translates to "this is something unfair that no one else can do". No banning Smashville for MKs none of the ledgegrab rules. Either ban MK or kill Brawl.

By imposing ledgegrab rules, we break other characters only metagame, like Pit. Pit's stall game is avoidable, unlike MK's, so even a ledgegrab ban would be seriously unfair.

 

[HeroMystic]

From what I've seen most Brawl matches don't come within 2 minutes of the time limit, and the ones that do usually involve lots of stalling. Remove the time limit for matches, actually enforce the stalling rule, and keep the ledge grab rule at 40-50 ledge grabs.

The first removes the real reason to plank (forcing time out and winning by default), the second is something that needs to be taken seriously regardless, and the third puts a serious penalty on planking on top of the stalling rule (only suggesting it because of stories I've heard about stalling punishments amounting to "stop stalling please").

Now somebody point out how this won't work so I can get the idea out of my head altogether.

What's the difference between stalling and camping?
What forces a player to approach with no time limit?
If neither player wants to approach, which player is stalling?

 

[Sosuke]

Anger can cloud anyone's judgment, regardless of "play level."

Define what makes a good player.

 

[The Brigand]

It might work, it might not.
But why did you come up with this series of rules again?

No Time Limit: Like I said, in most matches I've seen the threat of running out of time never seems to come up. In the matches where it does, it's because one of the players spent an extended amount of time actively avoiding confrontation. Basically, I don't feel that Brawl matches run long enough to justify the use of the timer.

Stalling: It's already banned, but I've never seen somebody get DQ's because they stalled. But then there's always the possibility that I'm wrong and need to watch more matches (or that those matches just don't get uploaded).

Ledge Grabs: Like I said, I've never seen somebody get DQ'd over stalling, so if the punishment for stalling was severe enough this wouldn't be necessary. Otherwise it exists solely to stop one player (and MKs in general) from planking until their opponent just quits.

 

[MarKO X]

Define what makes a good player.

victories.

No Time Limit: Like I said, in most matches I've seen the threat of running out of time never seems to come up. In the matches where it does, it's because one of the players spent an extended amount of time actively avoiding confrontation. Basically, I don't feel that Brawl matches run long enough to justify the use of the timer.

Stalling: It's already banned, but I've never seen somebody get DQ's because they stalled. But then there's always the possibility that I'm wrong and need to watch more matches (or that those matches just don't get uploaded).

Ledge Grabs: Like I said, I've never seen somebody get DQ'd over stalling, so if the punishment for stalling was severe enough this wouldn't be necessary. Otherwise it exists solely to stop one player (and MKs in general) from planking until their opponent just quits.

understood.
i don't think no time limit and enforcing stalling would work for Brawl, simply because of it's defensive nature (as opposed to melee and smash64) and the amount of area any given character can navigate (as opposed to non Smash fighting games).

 

[salaboB]

Metagame advances don't come from new techniques appearing out of the blue, they come from people learning how to apply the techniques in matches. Often these are existing techs, sometimes they're brand new, but in general, people will become used to a metagame without MK, and what will that accomplish? More then likely, any new techniques will take long enough to apply to MK that it won't be substantial.


Unless something truly gamechanging comes out (which is unlikely), then a temp ban is meaningless in terms of helping other metagames advance.


It's for data collection if it happens, to make a decision on whether or not MK will be banned permanently.

You have yet to demonstrate in this argument that anyone's metagame is advancing significantly against MK either. No big loss if it slows even more?

I agree that it would primarily be for a test, but I don't think that metagame vs. MK is an issue either way for the temp ban - it's a complete wash. People won't forget what they know, and the already slow advancement against him means not much will be lost if it's decided to not ban him in the end.

 

[Spelt]

victories.

i win against all of my scrub friends at school, i guess that means i'm a top level player!

 

[adumbrodeus]

You have yet to demonstrate in this argument that anyone's metagame is advancing significantly against MK either. No big loss if it slows even more?

Again, you're missing the point, what I'm SAYING is that there will by no substantial difference in the pre and post metagames, so why bother? You're saying what's the big deal, but if you want it to advance other characters, you gotta make a case.



As I said, data, data is where it's at.

 

[Nanaki]

Lol@people who still think Ledgegrab rules will make a difference.

^^THIS X 2098345720938475903820475CANDYBARS203984672093847

I've never met you, but I think I love you.

From what I've seen most Brawl matches don't come within 2 minutes of the time limit, and the ones that do usually involve lots of stalling. Remove the time limit for matches, actually enforce the stalling rule, and keep the ledge grab rule at 40-50 ledge grabs.

The first removes the real reason to plank (forcing time out and winning by default), the second is something that needs to be taken seriously regardless, and the third puts a serious penalty on planking on top of the stalling rule (only suggesting it because of stories I've heard about stalling punishments amounting to "stop stalling please").

Now somebody point out how this won't work so I can get the idea out of my head altogether.

If you want to be the TO that has no time limits on matches and has to enforce stalling at every single match, be my freaking guest. I wouldn't plan a single tournament that you didn't have a week to finish at minimum, though.

Timers are in place mostly so that tourneys can finish in a decent amount of time - most large tourneys don't end until 3am or later, and removing a timer would just making things ridiculous.

TO's have trouble enforcing stalling because they can't watch every match to call it out. People don't always have hacked Wiis on hand, so replays are out. There isn't a super efficient way to enforce it. It's also a pretty subjective thing to try to call, and DQ'ing someone needlessly would really really suck.

Ledge grab limits have failed to limit the 'gay' stuff MK can do already. 40-50 ledgegrabs is plenty for MK to plank out a good chunk of an 8 minute match.

I'm sure I've been ninja'd on all of these topics already.

 

[Sosuke]

victories.

You're confusing "good" with "successful".

 

[MarKO X]

i win against all of my scrub friends at school, i guess that means i'm a top level player!

lol.
i had a feeling that it was too easy. but obviously you're top player amongst your friends. You're only as good as the people you play.

ok, let me try again. What makes a good player?
Victories. I stand by what I say.

You're confusing "good" with "successful".

No I'm not. Bad players don't win.

 

[Kaffei]

QFT

Sure, make rules to limit MK.

By making character specific rules, it basically admits that "this SPECIFIC character needs limiting in this area", which translates to "this is something unfair that no one else can do". No banning Smashville for MKs none of the ledgegrab rules. Either ban MK or kill Brawl.

By imposing ledgegrab rules, we break other characters only metagame, like Pit. Pit's stall game is avoidable, unlike MK's, so even a ledgegrab ban would be seriously unfair.

Putting rules on a character defines him as "broken", but it also lets people who enjoy playing that character play as that character... but no one cares about that

 

[ShadowLink84]

No Time Limit: Like I said, in most matches I've seen the threat of running out of time never seems to come up. In the matches where it does, it's because one of the players spent an extended amount of time actively avoiding confrontation. Basically, I don't feel that Brawl matches run long enough to justify the use of the timer.

The reason most matches do not last long is because of the timer.
With the exception of Metaknight, there is also ways of attacking those who are aircamping or ledge stalling.

It also limits the amount of time it would take for a match to finish.
Otherwise, the matches would last much longer than necessary and far beyond what the venue's would allow.

Stalling: It's already banned, but I've never seen somebody get DQ's because they stalled. But then there's always the possibility that I'm wrong and need to watch more matches (or that those matches just don't get uploaded).

Stalling is indeed banned, and the reason you do not see anyone being DQ'ed is simply because they aren't stalling.
Stalling in itself is where you are placing yourself in a position where it is impossible for your opponent to attack or harm you without great risk to themself.

Ledge Grabs: Like I said, I've never seen somebody get DQ'd over stalling, so if the punishment for stalling was severe enough this wouldn't be necessary. Otherwise it exists solely to stop one player (and MKs in general) from planking until their opponent just quits.

Most character's lack the same tools to make use of ledge stalling to the same extent as MK.
SO far, the only one's who truly have show their ability to stall on the ledge in a viable manner were MK, Pit and G&W.

The only one which is EXTREMELY difficult to stop from stalling is Metaknight; to a lesser extent, Pit.

i win against all of my scrub friends at school, i guess that means i'm a top level player!

It does, for your school.

Its just the miniature version of a local tournament. <_<

 

[adumbrodeus]

No Time Limit: Like I said, in most matches I've seen the threat of running out of time never seems to come up. In the matches where it does, it's because one of the players spent an extended amount of time actively avoiding confrontation. Basically, I don't feel that Brawl matches run long enough to justify the use of the timer.

lol

M2k vs gnes

Do some research.


Let me put it this way, anyone named AdumbroDeus, Overswarm, Plank, DMG, or a variety of others will gladly stall you for 8 minutes when given the chance, hell we'll stall you for 5 days if necessary. Please, don't make it necessary.

Stalling: It's already banned, but I've never seen somebody get DQ's because they stalled. But then there's always the possibility that I'm wrong and need to watch more matches (or that those matches just don't get uploaded).

The problem is it's hard to differentiate stalling vs not stalling, hence why techniques capable of infinite stalling are banned. Period.

Ledge Grabs: Like I said, I've never seen somebody get DQ'd over stalling, so if the punishment for stalling was severe enough this wouldn't be necessary. Otherwise it exists solely to stop one player (and MKs in general) from planking until their opponent just quits.

People don't get DQ'd from stalling because figuring out when a player is stalling is nearly impossible. So yea, there's a good reason for that.

 

[Sosuke]

No I'm not. Bad players don't win.

So if a good Ganondorf player loses to an average IC player, the IC player is better?

 

[TLMSheikant]

Putting rules on a character defines him as "broken", but it also lets people who enjoy playing that character play as that character... but no one cares about that

Why would they care? If a character is deemed broken enough to be banned, it is banned. Simple. We really shouldnt care for people that like the character. Just play him in friendlies and pick another main/second for tournies or quit competitive brawl.

 

[theunabletable]

Putting rules on a character defines him as "broken", but it also lets people who enjoy playing that character play as that character... but no one cares about that

Not quite. If the planking that DMG presented in his thread truly makes the game unplayable to the point where it fits the SBR definition, the only viable option to stop something that already breaks the rules would seem to be a ledge grab limit solely built around MK.

We banned the IDC because of stalling, if DMGs planking truly makes the game unplayable (as in 100% unbeatable and the only point of doing so is to stall out the timer) and is stalling using the SBR definition, then SOME WAY of enforcing that "no stalling" rule needs to be made.

Imo a ledge grab rule does stop that kind of stalling (if it does count as the SBRs definition of stalling, which it seems like it does). It happens to limit MK as well, but it seems to be the only viable way to stop this unbeatable planking that DMG made.

So if a good Ganondorf player loses to an average IC player, the IC player is better?

How are we defining skill?

The Ganon might be a better player overall, but I can tell you right now he's a ****** for picking Ganon against ICs.

Why would they care? If a character is deemed broken enough to be banned, it is banned.

Why did we ban IDC and not just ban MK? Because it was STALLING using the SBR definition of it, but just banning the stalling portion would make it almost imposible to define when someone is stalling with it, or just using it. So the whole technique was banned.

If DMGs planking is stalling, then some rule needs to be made to enforce the no stalling rule that we already have.

 

[MarKO X]

So if a good Ganondorf player loses to an average IC player, the IC player is better?

can you prove the Ganon player is better than the IC player?
if yes, how do you prove it?

 

[Spelt]

To realistically describe skill in brawl one would have to write a well organized essay about all the different aspects of the game.
this is the main reason i believe brawl is a better game than melee, but that's beside the point...

 

[Sosuke]

can you prove the Ganon player is better than the IC player?
if yes, how do you prove it?

You said that the winning player is better.
This means that the losing player is always worse.

Of course there are going to be cases where the Ganon player is better, therefore the winning player is not always the better player.

 

[Asdioh]

Let me put it this way, anyone named AdumbroDeus, Overswarm, Plank, DMG, or a variety of others will gladly stall you for 8 minutes when given the chance, hell we'll stall you for 5 days if necessary. Please, don't make it necessary

I finally understand.


The easiest way to get into the BBR is to prove that you love camping and timing people out.

I'll keep this in mind...

 

[Spelt]

how do you go about timing someone out with kirby?

 

[Asdioh]

I main Fox you noob. My name PROVES it.

Or I can just use MK or something.