Official Metaknight Discussion

[Crow!]

As a side note, registration for MLG Brawl events is starting at 7:00pm EST tonight, so... I'm betting MLG will finally post their official ruleset at that time.

If not... well, from a legal standpoint, I'm going to say don't sign up until they do. In theory they could post the rules "Everyone loses. No refunds. Losers owe MLG an additional $1000." And you'd be stuck.

I'm not saying they WOULD do that, but signing up for something and agreeing to abide by yet unwritten rules is like handing someone a blank check.

 

[Omni]

Anyone suggesting that Shino's stall is unstoppable hasn't played high level Melee.

You can do a plethora of things but the two main ones are wavedashing fast falling to grab ledge and simply full hopping fast falling during the frames that Sheik is invincible an attempting to grab the ledge (before the fire hitbox comes out). This will always lead to her suiciding unless she teleports to the stage where in this case you get a free hit.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Anyone suggesting that Shino's stall is unstoppable hasn't played high level Melee.

You can do a plethora of things but the two main ones are wavedashing fast falling to grab ledge and simply full hopping fast falling during the frames that Sheik is invincible an attempting to grab the ledge (before the fire hitbox comes out). This will always lead to her suiciding unless she teleports to the stage where in this case you get a free hit.

I think more the concern is that the people who lose while Shino stalling are doing it wrong. Since I don't know the frame data off the top of my head, even though I've punished Shino stalling I can't say for sure that he's wrong.


I do doubt it though, and I'd like to see the frame data on it.



Yes, I admit I don't know the frame data, I take a different route for melee as opposed to Brawl, namely of just trying to get good as opposed to learning every minute detail about the game, probably the reason why I'm better at melee.

 

[St. Viers]

There was frame data brought up about both it and ganon's stall, a couple pages ago. Both were punishable by grabbing the ledge, and even needlessly taking into consideration human error and bad reflexes (neither of which apply to something as regular as shino stalling), there was a considerable amount of time you could take the ledge from them.

 

[fkacyan]

Seriously? We are comparing Melee's planking and how its compared to Brawl's planking and how it was BANNED , I also lol at your desperate attempt to close this thread like most of anti-ban without even providing a REAL argument

How is it a desperate attempt? Have you been reading the majority of the posts?

It comes down to the fact that, while we can compare to Melee, we certainly don't have to base our decisions on theirs. A discussion about Shino stalling is better held on the Melee boards.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There was frame data brought up about both it and ganon's stall, a couple pages ago. Both were punishable by grabbing the ledge, and even needlessly taking into consideration human error and bad reflexes (neither of which apply to something as regular as shino stalling), there was a considerable amount of time you could take the ledge from them.

It was too incomplete to draw that conclusion from cause it doesn't say how long the hitbox is, how long the ledge is considered occupied, etc.

 

[gallax]

so i hope the bbr realizes that the mlg is going to have to post their ruleset soon. and by soon its probably going to be today. this whole mk thing being banned needs to be decided upon NOW. by stalling people are allowing mk to not be banned and therefore a decision will have been made. this needs to end now.

 

[etecoon]

so i hope the bbr realizes that the mlg is going to have to post their ruleset soon. and by soon its probably going to be today. this whole mk thing being banned needs to be decided upon NOW. by stalling people are allowing mk to not be banned and therefore a decision will have been made. this needs to end now.

nah I can already see how this will pan out. he won't be banned, someone from the SBR will make a topic stating that the issue is dead for now and it won't be discussed again for at least a year, and in 3-5 months OS will force the issue back into the open.

OR

MK is banned, and it is constantly protested and ignored by many TO's, perpetually splitting the community and hastening it's demise

the meta knight issue will end when brawl dies

 

[ElDominio]

nah I can already see how this will pan out. he won't be banned, someone from the SBR will make a topic stating that the issue is dead for now and it won't be discussed again for at least a year, and in 3-5 months OS will force the issue back into the open.

OR

MK is banned, and it is constantly protested and ignored by many TO's, perpetually splitting the community and hastening it's demise

the meta knight issue will end when brawl dies

So, in other words, it's too late for Brawl? Brawl dies in either outcome...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So, in other words, it's too late for Brawl? Brawl dies in either outcome...

Poorly designed games die. Obviously, this one was. >.<

 

[etecoon]

the worst part is that it wasn't even mistakes, it was ****ing intentional lmao

 

[Justblaze647]

Proper planking is literally invincible? Yeah, it's been acknowledged.

This is a problem, no?

I can't even reveal

can't even reveal

CAN'T REVEAL

If I may pose an inquiry, what exactly are you guys waiting for?

You can reveal that, can't you?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Blaze: I assume they are polling right now, and that the BBR is waiting for the results of the poll.

However competitive gamers are traditionally very thick-headed and conservative so I doubt there will be any change, MK will not be banned.

 

[Justblaze647]

Blaze: I assume they are polling right now, and that the BBR is waiting for the results of the poll.

However competitive gamers are traditionally very thick-headed and conservative so I doubt there will be any change, MK will not be banned.

IMO, there are just too many things that are undoubtedly broken about MK to continue to ignore, or try to wait out. They need to stop trying to nerf individual characteristics of the character, and look at the bigger picture here... which is that we spend too much time and energy on this issue, and that none of the previous "resolutions" have been effective...

 

[etecoon]

the only thing undoubtedly broken about MK is planking, and ****, the head of the pro ban movement hasn't even said that anywhere AFAIK, he keeps saying planking isn't that good <_<

it's really not that difficult to limit planking, you don't see it winning anyone tournaments with the current rules typically

 

[Jack Kieser]

So, wait, MLG is (theoretically and probably) going to post their ruleset tonight? How long have we known about this?? We are literally waiting until the last possible moment to make a decision regarding MK? Or is the SBR hoping to cover their own ***** by letting MLG decide for themselves?

Look, I don't like disrespecting the SBR, especially since now we have guys like Adum and Crow! in there, and since Pierce7D has made that great PR thread in Brawl General... but this is ridiculous. This should have been decided at LEAST 7 days before the MLG signups so that there was time to coordinate with MLG. Now, there's a chance that no matter WHAT we decide, MLG already has their ruleset decided and set. This is unacceptable.

 

[Justblaze647]

SBR is loafing about...

/pokemon reference

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Cutter's post is still the best and more accurate post in this thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9557087&postcount=4412
We are screwed either way.


I'm so glad I'm still affluent in Melee's language.

*Falco forward b's away*

 

[adumbrodeus]

so i hope the bbr realizes that the mlg is going to have to post their ruleset soon. and by soon its probably going to be today. this whole mk thing being banned needs to be decided upon NOW. by stalling people are allowing mk to not be banned and therefore a decision will have been made. this needs to end now.

Well, you're assuming it hasn't been decided, it might have been decided, and we're just waiting on a finalized total ruleset.

This is a problem, no?




If I may pose an inquiry, what exactly are you guys waiting for?

You can reveal that, can't you?

I wish I could, but no.


MLG's gonna release it's entire ruleset at the same time, which includes the solution for MK (if any).

So, wait, MLG is (theoretically and probably) going to post their ruleset tonight? How long have we known about this?? We are literally waiting until the last possible moment to make a decision regarding MK? Or is the SBR hoping to cover their own ***** by letting MLG decide for themselves?

Look, I don't like disrespecting the SBR, especially since now we have guys like Adum and Crow! in there, and since Pierce7D has made that great PR thread in Brawl General... but this is ridiculous. This should have been decided at LEAST 7 days before the MLG signups so that there was time to coordinate with MLG. Now, there's a chance that no matter WHAT we decide, MLG already has their ruleset decided and set. This is unacceptable.

You're assuming that it hasn't been decided, again, I can't say whether or not this is true.


Unfortunately, the announcement came very quickly and caused a great deal of complications, because there were a lot of issues that had to be addressed, MK being only one of them. Given the limited time we had for this, I believe that we're doing a good job dealing with it.

SBR is loafing about...

/pokemon reference

Considering how active the BBR is at the moment because of this, I find this post incredibly ironic.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I though so. I can imagine the BBR going at war over the same topics we are in Fire Emblem style, with OS and Omni being the pro and anti-ban lords LOL.

 

[Justblaze647]

Considering how active the BBR is at the moment because of this, I find this post incredibly ironic.

You see, the problem is that we can't tell how active you guys are being...

I mean, we have this, but it isn't doing very much to pacify our angst...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So, wait, MLG is (theoretically and probably) going to post their ruleset tonight? How long have we known about this?? We are literally waiting until the last possible moment to make a decision regarding MK? Or is the SBR hoping to cover their own ***** by letting MLG decide for themselves?

Look, I don't like disrespecting the SBR, especially since now we have guys like Adum and Crow! in there, and since Pierce7D has made that great PR thread in Brawl General... but this is ridiculous. This should have been decided at LEAST 7 days before the MLG signups so that there was time to coordinate with MLG. Now, there's a chance that no matter WHAT we decide, MLG already has their ruleset decided and set. This is unacceptable.

Okay, seriously...

Guys, this is ridiculous. BBR members are not allowed to leak any info... info that the community is hinging on. Great. Good going. This level of pointless opacity is ********. Can we at least know WHY we're being kept in the dark so long?

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I don't think it would be THAT worth it. It would probably end up something like the secret of Patrick's Secret box. LOL

 

[etecoon]

I think pretty soon they're going to make them change their purple names and be anonymous lmao

 

[adumbrodeus]

I though so. I can imagine the BBR going at war over the same topics we are in Fire Emblem style, with OS and Omni being the pro and anti-ban lords LOL.

lol, amazing imagery.

But understand, that's just one of many issues being explored for the ruleset, and we're not releasing anything until everything's finished and MLG releases their ruleset to avoid undercutting them.


For example, the current ruleset has Norfair and Luigi's mansion, when's the last time you guys saw those stages in a tournament?


There's also the planking ruleset, and a ton of other contentious issues you might not even imagine would be brought up.


MK's just one facet, sure he's a big facet, but far from the only.

You see, the problem is that we can't tell how active you guys are being...

I mean, we have this, but it isn't doing very much to pacify our angst...

All I can say is, when the MLG ruleset comes out, we'll have had influence on every aspect of it, with some members clocking in 100+ hours dealing with it.


Ironically, we can't update that because it all relates to one project with an announcement already planned (so no early release), at the same time, you'll see the fruits of our work soon.

Okay, seriously...

Guys, this is ridiculous. BBR members are not allowed to leak any info... info that the community is hinging on. Great. Good going. This level of pointless opacity is ********. Can we at least know WHY we're being kept in the dark so long?

To avoid undercutting MLG.

 

[Jack Kieser]

What exactly do you mean by "undercutting MLG"? I don't understand how the Smash community knowing about issues extremely important to the Smash community, things we should be deciding for ourselves regardless of MLG hosting us or not, undercuts them.

Serious question. Really. Please make me understand.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What exactly do you mean by "undercutting MLG"? I don't understand how the Smash community knowing about issues extremely important to the Smash community, things we should be deciding for ourselves regardless of MLG hosting us or not, undercuts them.

Serious question. Really. Please make me understand.

This.
10this

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Because without the assumption that MLG knows more about competitive gaming than everyone else does, they lose a huge leg up in their marketing strategy? And because the board is owned by the company in question?

Come on, now.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Because without the assumption that MLG knows more about competitive gaming than everyone else does, they lose a huge leg up in their marketing strategy? And because the board is owned by the company in question?

Come on, now.

Oh right. They automatically have to know more about a game most "competitive" gamers laugh about than the people who play that game a lot.

TBH, I think it would be better for PR if they came across as knowing nothing from smash.

 

[Jack Kieser]

What does that even have to do with their marketing strategy? Their marketing strategy is a middleman approach for sponsors; as long as people are watching the matches and are coming to the events, thereby seeing the advertisements for the sponsors that pay for everything, MLG is doing its job. That's all MLG does: arrange a meeting place that lots of people will look at, then get people to pay them so that they can plaster ads in front of all of those people.

From a business standpoint, MLG's knowledge about the games they run is irrelevant; the sponsors don't care what they do as long as it brings people to events, and the gamers don't care because we already know that no one knows more about the games that are in the circuit than each game's respective community.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What exactly do you mean by "undercutting MLG"? I don't understand how the Smash community knowing about issues extremely important to the Smash community, things we should be deciding for ourselves regardless of MLG hosting us or not, undercuts them.

Serious question. Really. Please make me understand.

Because we're working together to develop the ruleset for MLG which by extension, will become the new community standard (come on, you know this is gonna happen).


As such we (BBR and MLG) made the decision that MLG is gonna announce it.


I personally agree with this from a PR standpoint because MLG is incredibly important to unifying the community (you guys remember my "doom and gloom scenario", MLG is the only thing that can keep it from happening).


That's why it's important that it's understood that the MLG ruleset is the BBR ruleset as well, if not explicitly created by the BBR, one developed in conjunction with and endorsed by the BBR.

 

[HeroMystic]

I though so. I can imagine the BBR going at war over the same topics we are in Fire Emblem style, with OS and Omni being the pro and anti-ban lords LOL.

Oh, Fire Emblem debates are much more erractic than this.

 

[Justblaze647]

When can we expect this announcement?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Because we're working together to develop the ruleset for MLG which by extension, will become the new community standard (come on, you know this is gonna happen).

Ok, so THIS isn't the part that would undercut them...

As such we (BBR and MLG) made the decision that MLG is gonna announce it.

THIS is the part that would undercut them. That's what you're saying, right? That you don't want to steal MLG's thunder by talking to us about the SBR's decisions... because the SBR and MLG has decided that they should be the ones to make the announcement?

I personally agree with this from a PR standpoint because MLG is incredibly important to unifying the community (you guys remember my "doom and gloom scenario", MLG is the only thing that can keep it from happening).

That's why it's important that it's understood that the MLG ruleset is the BBR ruleset as well.

It's fine that the MLG and SBR rulesets be the same; that's how it should be. And it's good to know that you all were at least coordinating all of this ahead of time (because, you know... it's not like we knew that or anything). It just that all of this "shadow group" business has everyone on edge, and with good reason. This is a decision that may very well decide whether this game lives or dies, and we have NO IDEA what's happening, because you all decided that we're not important enough to know, or rather, that MLG making some press release is more important than us being active members of the process (even if it's just by knowing what's going on).

You have to understand (and I'm sure you, personally, do) that this is bound to piss some people off.

 

[adumbrodeus]

When can we expect this announcement?

I can't say for sure, partially because I'm not positive myself. All I can say is wait a bit longer.

Ok, so THIS isn't the part that would undercut them...



THIS is the part that would undercut them. That's what you're saying, right? That you don't want to steal MLG's thunder by talking to us about the SBR's decisions... because the SBR and MLG has decided that they should be the ones to make the announcement?

Yep

It's fine that the MLG and SBR rulesets be the same; that's how it should be. And it's good to know that you all were at least coordinating all of this ahead of time (because, you know... it's not like we knew that or anything). It just that all of this "shadow group" business has everyone on edge, and with good reason. This is a decision that may very well decide whether this game lives or dies, and we have NO IDEA what's happening, because you all decided that we're not important enough to know, or rather, that MLG making some press release is more important than us being active members of the process (even if it's just by knowing what's going on).

You have to understand (and I'm sure you, personally, do) that this is bound to piss some people off.

I think it was very strongly implied throughout the process that the BBR and MLG were working together on this, remember MLG does own the board and has reps in the BBR and I'm pretty sure that it was explicitly stated on a couple of occasions by MLG.


And yes, I understand it would piss people off to do it this way, but at the same time, we're at a point where the community could crack in two very easily, and the only thing we can do to protect that integrity is to protect MLG's legitimacy as much as possible in the eyes of the community.


So, I understand your annoyance, but this is the best route all things considered, and I hope you guys can understand that.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I appreciate you even saying that much; knowing that you can acknowledge why people are mad right now is at least a step in the right direction.

I will say this, though... MK or no MK, MLG doesn't need the SBR to "protect [its] legitimacy"; $60,000 in prizes does that well on its own. Nothing will stop the competitive community from entering the MLG circuit if it means 60k in cash money. Nothing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I appreciate you even saying that much; knowing that you can acknowledge why people are mad right now is at least a step in the right direction.

I will say this, though... MK or no MK, MLG doesn't need the SBR to "protect [its] legitimacy"; $60,000 in prizes does that well on its own. Nothing will stop the competitive community from entering the MLG circuit if it means 60k in cash money. Nothing.

*looks at Evo 2008*


It's not so much a matter of getting entrants and making sure the community sees MLG as a legitimate standard for tournament play, which is turn means that rulesets will be able to be accepted uniformly.

My concern is more about MLG being successful without setting the standard and resolving the community split that could tear the brawl community apart.

 

[Justblaze647]

I, also, appreciate you at least attempting to quell our outrage right now...

Good thing you're in the BBR now!

 

[adumbrodeus]

I, also, appreciate you at least attempting to quell our outrage right now...

Good thing you're in the BBR now!

NP, I'll say as much as I can without getting into privileged information.


Honestly, the BBR is a good group in generally, unfortunately most of us aren't that skilled in PR, so we appear to be a lot worse off then we actually are.


Having a PR manager helps however, but remember we're still a volunteer organization that got picked based on our understanding of the game, so we don't exactly select for PR as a skill.

 

[Jack Kieser]

*looks at Evo 2008*

I just want to say... LOLEVO2K8. Really? That's the argument? A MK ban, even in the eyes of anti-ban, will NEVER be the same as an item ban. Playing with items? Lolsauce. Playing with MK? Well... still lolsauce, but not nearly as bad.