Official Metaknight Discussion

[adumbrodeus]

Maybe instead of arguing with hypothetical data, data without controls, and just generally biased data, maybe we could devise a plan to gather data with controls to rule out variables such as popularity, and do it together as a whole community rather than biased fractions. Decide on what we'll test (MK's brokeness, overcentralization, his true match-up ratios based on how much they actually win vs characters, etc) and then decide on limits that would be translated into a "Yes, he's broken" or "No, he's not" or whatever.

It would obviously be complicated, but at least we wouldn't continue volleying the same arguments back and forth...

I proposed one a while back, check the thread.

 

[Gnes]

Third worst in the game?
Excuse me while I go laugh my *** off.

I caught that too...lol

 

[Tien2500]

X uses Sonic.
Sonic sucks, but he's by no means on the same level as GANONDORF.

Lol. 10 lols.

 

[KBM]

loleveryoneignoringjem

you apparently have that mindset and you aren't beating **** are you

 

[Ganonsburg]

I proposed one a while back, check the thread.

Oh right, my bad. I guess I must have missed it between the 10 or so posts appearing every 5 minutes. I'll just sit at my computer here all day so that I don't miss it the next time you say it, and so that I can go back over all 150+ pages of this thread.

 

[Sake-Hato]

WOW

ive been top 8 hecka times =/

 

[Rockan]

X and fow eat mks and look at their characters lmao just step it up mks matagame progressed farther than other characters and the games been out for a year..

 

[MarKO X]

Apparently ADHD, DEHF, and Ally are the only people in all of Brawl who are actually trying.

Everyone is trying...

but if you mentally block yourself every time you fight a MetaKnight, thinking "wow, he's using a character that should be banned," you already lost that match.

hell, M2K doesn't think he can beat Mango, and you see how that plays out.

this is a problem i have with the pro-ban side... because MK has been beaten, it makes anyone who complains about it look like a scrub.

this is why if you really think that Mk is banworthy, no amount of numbers are going to convince anti-ban. you're going to have to actually get out there and win with the honor-less, rule bending MK.

otherwise, play your character and suck it up.

 

[Tien2500]

People fail to see the point. Noone is saying MK is unbeatable or that he has 100/0 matchups across the board. They're saying that he has an advantage to the point where some feel it is unhealthy to the metagame. O_O...

 

[Jem.]

Snake/Diddy/Falco/IC/ can all beat MK. Apparently Sonic can too if you watch X play. And what I meant was, before Sonic was being picked up by good players like X, sonic was around 3 worst in the game.

Metaknight has reached the peak of his metagame, no other character has yet. Everyone will flock to the next popular thing, abuse it, then everyone will whine again. Metaknight is the most predictable character in the game which is very punishable by a lot of the cast, and if you want to debate that with me, feel free.

 

[Browny]

And when the other characters progress their 'metagame', MK adapts and beats it soundly since he will forever have the options to do so. Ever heard of DK/Wario/Lucario going even with MK? Funny how that turned out. Diddy seems to be the current exception to the rule, but his time will come like all others before him.

 

[Espy Rose]

Snake/Diddy/Falco/IC/ can all beat MK. Apparently Sonic can too if you watch X play. And what I meant was, before Sonic was being picked up by good players like X, sonic was around 3 worst in the game.

There was never an argument saying that he was unbeatable. The post right above yours just SAID that.

And just for clarification, Sonic was put at 5th from the bottom on the first tier list.

Metaknight has reached the peak of his metagame, no other character has yet. Everyone will flock to the next popular thing, abuse it, then everyone will whine again. Metaknight is the most predictable character in the game which is very punishable by a lot of the cast, and if you want to debate that with me, feel free.

That's just a baseless assumption.
I thought the slippery slope argument was invalid in this case, and has been invalid for several months now?

 

[Crow!]

Quick update in case anyone cares... My take on analysis of Ankoku's data is going to have to wait until tomorrow night at the earliest. I've been putting off studying for my exam tomorrow for long enough.

 

[MarKO X]

People fail to see the point. Noone is saying MK is unbeatable or that he has 100/0 matchups across the board. They're saying that he has an advantage to the point where some feel it is unhealthy to the metagame. O_O...

and that is merely an opinion.
the funny thing about an opinion is that you can't prove an opinion right or wrong.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Snake/Diddy/Falco/IC/ can all beat MK. Apparently Sonic can too if you watch X play. And what I meant was, before Sonic was being picked up by good players like X, sonic was around 3 worst in the game.

Metaknight has reached the peak of his metagame, no other character has yet. Everyone will flock to the next popular thing, abuse it, then everyone will whine again. Metaknight is the most predictable character in the game which is very punishable by a lot of the cast, and if you want to debate that with me, feel free.

I'm pretty sure Sonic has peaked.

 

[Espy Rose]

and that is merely an opinion.
the funny thing about an opinion is that you can't prove an opinion right or wrong.

Well duh.

If you had an opinion and backed it up with infallible, factual data, it becomes a fact.
The moment you prove an opinion right, it becomes a fact, in other words.[/doesn'treallycareandjustdidthistogivehimsomethingtodootherthanhomework]

@Legendary: I wouldn't say Sonic has "peaked" just about yet.
But he might as well have. He ain't getting any better from here on out. The only direction he can go is down.

 

[etecoon]

SMetaknight has reached the peak of his metagame, no other character has yet. Everyone will flock to the next popular thing, abuse it, then everyone will whine again. Metaknight is the most predictable character in the game which is very punishable by a lot of the cast, and if you want to debate that with me, feel free.

meta knight has more options in most situations than any other character, there's no way he's the most predictable character LOL

 

[adumbrodeus]

Oh right, my bad. I guess I must have missed it between the 10 or so posts appearing every 5 minutes. I'll just sit at my computer here all day so that I don't miss it the next time you say it, and so that I can go back over all 150+ pages of this thread.

No, the thread I made, I just referenced to it here.

 

[Tien2500]

and that is merely an opinion.
the funny thing about an opinion is that you can't prove an opinion right or wrong.

Of course this is opinion based. There is no proven formulas or bodies of law we can use to regulate fighting game communities. Its not a science. Its based on what the community feels is best for the game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well duh.

If you had an opinion and backed it up with infallible, factual data, it becomes a fact.
The moment you prove an opinion right, it becomes a fact, in other words.[/doesn'treallycareandjustdidthistogivehimsomethingtodootherthanhomework]

@Legendary: I wouldn't say Sonic has "peaked" just about yet.
But he might as well have. He ain't getting any better from here on out. The only direction he can go is down.

That's probably true. Unless some finds a ridic AT for him.

 

[MarKO X]

Well duh.

If you had an opinion and backed it up with infallible, factual data, it becomes a fact.
The moment you prove an opinion right, it becomes a fact, in other words.[/doesn'treallycareandjustdidthistogivehimsomethingtodootherthanhomework]

opinion =/= theory
if you wanna call it a theory, then you can...

 

[Tien2500]

opinion =/= theory
if you wanna call it a theory, then you can...

He didn't call it a theory O_O...

 

[MarKO X]

He didn't call it a theory O_O...

he said that you can prove an opinion to be a fact...

but you can't.

you can do that with a theory though. and you can debunk it.

and if you want MK banned based off of an opinion... well... yeah, good luck with that. if he has unfair advantages (which I think he does, actually), then you gotta go out there and SHOW people that. You can talk about it all you want, but these unfair advantages don't really get used to their fullest extent, and as a result, don't seem to be that big of a problem, especially when people are beating MK.

It's like this:
Opinion: MK is unhealthy to the metagame.
Fact: People can beat MK.

what holds more weight?

 

[Espy Rose]

That's probably true. Unless some finds a ridic AT for him.

That's not gonna happen.

He didn't call it a theory O_O...

I didn't.

In terms of what Mar said, the entire thread is full of golden opinions.

he said that you can prove an opinion to be a fact...

but you can't.

Of course you can't. Because the moment you do, it's no longer an opinion.

 

[ADHD]

I think we should all watch my mewtwo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkztFJXDDmc

 

[Tien2500]

he said that you can prove an opinion to be a fact...

but you can't.

you can do that with a theory though. and you can debunk it.

and if you want MK banned based off of an opinion... well... yeah, good luck with that. if he has unfair advantages (which I think he does, actually), then you gotta go out there and SHOW people that. You can talk about it all you want, but these unfair advantages don't really get used to their fullest extent, and as a result, don't seem to be that big of a problem, especially when people are beating MK.

It's like this:
Opinion: MK is unhealthy to the metagame.
Fact: People can beat MK.

what holds more weight?

Opinions and theories are not mutually exclusive. An opinion is your viewpoint on any matter which is not a known fact. So at one point believing the Earth to be round was an opinion. It was also a theory and eventually was proved. A theory is also something very specific in science. Being able to be proven or disproven by facts is one element but not the only one.

Also I'm not sure I understand the example you gave.

Opinion: MK is unhealthy to the metagame.
Fact: People can beat MK.

If either of these statements were true they wouldn't negate the other. Of course MK can be beaten. Otherwise he's have 100-0 mathups against everyone. But just because he is beatable does not mean he is healthy for the game. I hate using Street Fighter as an example but you seem familar with it so here goes.

Opinion: O. Sagat is unhealthy to the metagame.
Fact: O. Sagat can be beaten.

O. Sagat was banned.

 

[Tommy_G]

I don't agree with any argument that starts off with "assume this this and this"

So posting graphs and charts with manipulated data is any better?

To MK pro-banners: Get better.

 

[Tien2500]

So posting graphs and charts with manipulated data is any better?

To MK pro-banners: Get better.

Or use MK. Or stop playing.

 

['V']

O. Sagat was banned.

Sagat was "soft-banned".

Not the same thing as a ban, sir.

 

[Tien2500]

Sagat was "soft-banned".

Not the same thing as a ban, sir.

Why do people adress others as Sir on the internet... -_-...

Take Akuma from HD Remix if you don't like the Sagat exapmple.

 

[MarKO X]

Opinions and theories are not mutually exclusive. An opinion is your viewpoint on any matter which is not a known fact. So at one point believing the Earth to be round was an opinion. It was also a theory and eventually was proved. A theory is also something very specific in science. Being able to be proven or disproven by facts is one element but not the only one.

theories are not exclusive to science. if you have a hunch about something, you can call it a theory, and try to prove it with facts and stuff.
opinions are statements that can be backed by facts, but ultimately cannot be proven.

Also I'm not sure I understand the example you gave.

Opinion: MK is unhealthy to the metagame.
Fact: People can beat MK.

If either of these statements were true they wouldn't negate the other. Of course MK can be beaten. Otherwise he's have 100-0 mathups against everyone. But just because he is beatable does not mean he is healthy for the game. I hate using Street Fighter as an example but you seem familar with it so here goes.

Opinion: O. Sagat is unhealthy to the metagame.
Fact: O. Sagat can be beaten.

O. Sagat was banned.

O. Sagat was softbanned in Japan because you can't cp in Japanese tourneys, and O.Sagat shut down maybe half the cast.
O. Sagat is not banned in USA play, and as far as I can tell, there is nothing unhealthy about O.Sagat in ST.

 

[Espy Rose]

opinions are statements that can be backed by facts, but ultimately cannot be proven.

Because they become facts once they are (proven).

 

[Tien2500]

theories are not exclusive to science. if you have a hunch about something, you can call it a theory, and try to prove it with facts and stuff.
opinions are statements that can be backed by facts, but ultimately cannot be proven.



O. Sagat was softbanned in Japan because you can't cp in Japanese tourneys, and O.Sagat shut down maybe half the cast.
O. Sagat is not banned in USA play, and as far as I can tell, there is nothing unhealthy about O.Sagat in ST.

A theory in laymans terms is just an opinion really. Being proven with facts only applies to scientific theory. A soft ban is pretty much a ban but we don't have an equivelent in USA cause we play to win. I believe a similar situation happened with Akuma in remix though.

 

[Inaphyt]

Opinions and theories are not mutually exclusive. An opinion is your viewpoint on any matter which is not a known fact. So at one point believing the Earth to be round was an opinion. It was also a theory and eventually was proved. A theory is also something very specific in science. Being able to be proven or disproven by facts is one element but not the only one.

Also I'm not sure I understand the example you gave.

Opinion: MK is unhealthy to the metagame.
Fact: People can beat MK.

If either of these statements were true they wouldn't negate the other. Of course MK can be beaten. Otherwise he's have 100-0 mathups against everyone. But just because he is beatable does not mean he is healthy for the game. I hate using Street Fighter as an example but you seem familar with it so here goes.

Opinion: O. Sagat is unhealthy to the metagame.
Fact: O. Sagat can be beaten.

O. Sagat was banned.

This is the most intelligent post i've ever seen, i can image Mk cornered after that hahaha.

The truth is Anti bans or w/e you call them, just will not listen they have their opinion fixated and will refuse to budge regardless of them being wrong or right.

There's so much evidence cold hard facts very unique and interesting points pointing to the ban in this thread there's nothing more to debate?

Who has the POWER to ban Mk? maybe probanners should speak to those people instead of the falling on deaf ears in this thread.

 

[Tien2500]

This is the most intelligent post i've ever seen, i can image Mk cornered after that hahaha.

The truth is Anti bans or w/e you call them, just will not listen they have their opinion fixated and will refuse to budge regardless of them being wrong or right.

There's so much evidence cold hard facts very unique and interesting points pointing to the ban in this thread there's nothing more to debate?

Who has the POWER to ban Mk? maybe probanners should speak to those people instead of the falling on deaf ears in this thread.

Well I mean its not so much right vs wrong as different people have different opinions on what makes a metagame good. Some are strict sirlinists with a play to win mentality and then you have other people who think balance is more imporant etc.

Now that I've said something about smash to keep on topic everyone should watch Important Things with Demitri Marting on Comedy Central O_O its awesome. Unlike MK.

 

[MarKO X]

A theory in laymans terms is just an opinion really. Being proven with facts only applies to scientific theory. A soft ban is pretty much a ban but we don't have an equivelent in USA cause we play to win. I believe a similar situation happened with Akuma in remix though.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

dunno how much weight dictionary.com holds in your eyes, but... yeah...

with HDR akuma, sirlin (a designer of the game) basically said that he failed to balance Akuma correctly. Mind you, Sirlin did design that game with competition in mind, has won tourneys, etc. Also, it was claimed that Damdai (who got 3rd in evo2k9 in HDR) had broken tactics with Akuma as well, and with a fireball that crosses up and a teleport that can lead to a dp cross up, I'd believe it.

once again, I think that MK can in fact destroy Brawl, but no one is playing that honor-lessly, so to speak. This is why if you really think that MK should be banned, at this point, no amount of data or evidence is going to do it. You're going to have to go out there and play honor-less MK and prove it.

 

[Tien2500]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

dunno how much weight dictionary.com holds in your eyes, but... yeah...

with HDR akuma, sirlin (a designer of the game) basically said that he failed to balance Akuma correctly. Mind you, Sirlin did design that game with competition in mind, has won tourneys, etc. Also, it was claimed that Damdai (who got 3rd in evo2k9 in HDR) had broken tactics with Akuma as well, and with a fireball that crosses up and a teleport that can lead to a dp cross up, I'd believe it.

once again, I think that MK can in fact destroy Brawl, but no one is playing that honor-lessly, so to speak. This is why if you really think that MK should be banned, at this point, no amount of data or evidence is going to do it. You're going to have to go out there and play honor-less MK and prove it.

Eh I'm really not going to debate the meaning of theory. It doesn't seem relevant.

I don't really think that the developer intent matters even if it is Sirlin and frankly I'm not good enough to prove MK is broken by winning high level tournaments with him. I'm not that devoted. Just killing time on the internet really

 

[Espy Rose]

Same here Tien. Little comments spark the most unnecessary things.

 

[Zankoku]

Why do people adress others as Sir on the internet... -_-...

Take Akuma from HD Remix if you don't like the Sagat exapmple.

Sure thing!

STHD didnt change all that much from vanilla ST, a few character tweaks and balance options, but no new gameplay elements. That would constitute the same game. Akuma has always been banned in ST, so the question was "Do we keep him banned, or remove the ban?"

Akuma was too powerful and had a corner lockdown in the original. He was tweaked and given a super meter, which in turn makes him too powerful.

We waited as long as possible before banning him, even after several major events had occured. The problem is, Damdai the key Akuma player didn't play him at these tournaments. This means either that he has moved on from the character, or is saving his strats for a national event.

Even the rebalancer for the game, David Sirlin said he made some poor choices on Akuma, and that was not the way he was supposed to end up.

When you can see the immediate brokenness of a character, but dont see him in tournament play, something is fishy, so we decided to keep the ban on Akuma.

This will be the last post in this topic, as to you have our reasoning, and we will leave it at that.

 

[Tien2500]

But espy that's part of the fun of the internet.