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Official Metaknight Discussion

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Flayl

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None of the 9 MK's I listed have lost to Logic or Ninjalink in the past 4 months.

Also, matchups aren't based on the outcome of one tournament. You can argue for ZSS's success against MK if it happens more than once. I'm not saying it's not a potentiall y close matchup, I'm saying that there's not enough evidence for that just yet.
 

Black Marf

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
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I did make arguments. They look like this.
You made assertions.
Me: "Maybe you should double think banning MK, I mean Ally does really well against them, it might even be in snakes favor or even."
Proban: "Ally is too good."
Me: "Other good snakes are doing just fine in there regions too. Alot of them beat well known and good MKs."
Proban: "Trust me, everyone says snake doesn't win. It is just Ally, he is too good."
Me: "ADHD does very well against all the MK players to. He holds a winning record against like everyone. He even 3-0 M2K in one of the most recent, biggest brawl tournies."
Proban: "ADHD is too good too."
Me: "Is it that if you beat M2K that your just too good?"
Proban: "No they do the impossible, thats why they are too good."
Me: "But if they do it, then it can't be impossible."
Proban: "Yea, but No one else does it consistently."
Me: "What about DEHF, Logic, NinjaLink, Meep. I even heard that this good ZSS recently beat a top MK."
Proban: "Those MKs didn't know the match-up"
Use tournament results to back up your claims (like Flayl did).

Hard data is going to convince people more than throwing out names, straw manning, and attempting to ridicule the other side.
 

Sorto

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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>> What? Have you actually studied ancient history?

I should clarify that a culture's understanding of whether or not the Earth was a sphere depended on that culture. Some cultures caught on far later than others. For this reason, discussing how well cultures understood the Earth being flat could take forever, and it in itself has nothing to do with this argument.


The question centers around whether or not Ally's results could be replicated. There hasn't been any statistical analysis done showing that this is the case. Therefore, I (and others) are inclined to assume that other Snake's have NOT replicated his success, therefore he is an outlier.

EDIT:

I can tell you right now that this assumption is probably false, and therefore creates a bias in interpretation. This is especially so because the success of each of these players is further influenced by their knowledge of the matchup, and not just their individual skill.
So every other snake can't beat good MKs? They def have been replicated. Evidence does show that. Sure they didn't beat M2k, but most players can't even if they play the so called broken MK. Top snakes have beaten top MKs consistently. The results aren't as terrible as everyone describes. Snake holds 15% of the wins according to anokus list. Sure MK holds 30%, but there is also a possibility of there being alot more MKs.
 

Flayl

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Razer has beaten Dojo in more than one tournament, but still has a losing track record. But picking him and only him as an example does not work because of the potential skill difference, hence why I've gathered the data for the best 9 MKs (RedHalberd might replace Seibrik if he goes to more tournaments, until then it's Seibrik).
 

MKOwnage

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Just ban the stupid thing. This conversation has been going for too long.
Nah just kidding. I still think that if scrooging and planking were banned Meta Knight would be a lot more suckish.
 

MarKO X

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I stated awhile back. If people find scrooging to be a form of stalling, then it should be banned. As stalling is banned. How do you ban scrooging? It is easy.

Scrooging Ban- If any character goes under a specific stage twice, without recieving or dealing damage inbetween, then that character is in violation of scrooging. Scrooging will result in the same outcome as stalling.

What do people think about this rule? Input would be nice.
I go under the stage twice, wasting plenty of valuable time.
I come back on stage and air camp and/or plank until damage is done.
I go under the stage two more times.

Let's waste that time baby.
 

Sorto

Smash Journeyman
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You made assertions.

Use tournament results to back up your claims (like Flayl did).

Hard data is going to convince people more than throwing out names, straw manning, and attempting to ridicule the other side.
1. Ok here is numbers and logic for you. ADHD is the best Diddy.
2. ADHD hands down beats every MK and holds winning record against them all.
3. The common argument is that no MK who has ever played the matchup knows how to play correctly against diddy. NONE.
4. Current match-up ratio for diddy:mk is 45:55.
5. ADHD's results show the match-up in diddys favor or at the very least even. Had ADHD been used as the diddy representative and any Metaknight Player who has faced him been used as the opponent. Even the one who had the best results. Its simple math ADHD VICTORIES: ANY ONE MK PLAYERS VICTORIES.
6. You could easily say the same for M2K verses any Diddy Player that is not ADHD. But again, one person has disproved the results of others. ANd while M2K would have to disclude one diddy to show MKs favorability in the match, ADHD would have to disclude no MKS.
7. People argue that when MKs learn the matchup that diddy will lose. There is no proof to this assumption. It is based on an MK is the best sort of theory, from what I can figure.
8. Why until then, is the match not in diddys favor?
 

Sorto

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I go under the stage twice, wasting plenty of valuable time.
I come back on stage and air camp and/or plank until damage is done.
I go under the stage two more times.

Let's waste that time baby.
It flat out says going under twice is scrooging. By the time you had said your first comma, you had already scrooged.

If planking has a ledge grab limit, then that option is now invalid. Air camping if used to avoid combat is a form of stalling. SO then you get called for stalling and lose there. If air camping is used close enough to land a hit, then you are also close enough to be hit.
 

gallax

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Me: I even heard that this good ZSS recently beat a top MK."
Proban: "Those MKs didn't know the match-up"
None of the 9 MK's I listed have lost to Logic or Ninjalink in the past 4 months.

Also, matchups aren't based on the outcome of one tournament. You can argue for ZSS's success against MK if it happens more than once. I'm not saying it's not a potentiall y close matchup, I'm saying that there's not enough evidence for that just yet.
i know for srue that you are talking about nick riddle beating seibrik. seibrik being number 1 in florida while NR is number 4 in florida.

riddle has beaten brik before and usually has bery good matched against brik. now brik and riddle both paly each other all the time so they BOTH know the MU qutie well.
 

Black Marf

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1. Ok here is numbers and logic for you. ADHD is the best Diddy.
Sure.
2. ADHD hands down beats every MK and holds winning record against them all.
He kicks ***.
3. The common argument is that no MK who has ever played the matchup knows how to play correctly against diddy. NONE.
Although that seems to be the common argument, I'd say it's not completely true. They know the matchup pretty well because they can beat the other Diddy's, but they don't know it well enough to fully exploit the hell out of it.

Even if they did, ADHD might still win because he's a masta.
4. Current match-up ratio for diddy:mk is 45:55.
And undergoing research.
5. ADHD's results show the match-up in diddys favor or at the very least even. Had ADHD been used as the diddy representative and any Metaknight Player who has faced him been used as the opponent. Even the one who had the best results. Its simple math ADHD VICTORIES: ANY ONE MK PLAYERS VICTORIES.
The reason why this is false has already been shown. ADHD may very well be an outlier.
6. You could easily say the same for M2K verses any Diddy Player that is not ADHD. But again, one person has disproved the results of others. ANd while M2K would have to disclude one diddy to show MKs favorability in the match, ADHD would have to disclude none.
Although from my understanding, if you take out ADHD the MKs start beating all sorts of Diddy's.
7. People argue that when MKs learn the matchup that diddy will lose. There is no proof to this assumption. It is based on an MK is the best sort of theory, from what I can figure.
There's historical precedence for the assumption that MK will pull ahead. But you're right that there is no proof.
8. Why until then, is the match not in diddys favor?
You failed. All you have shown is that ADHD is exceptional, which was already known. In order to prove that Diddy actually has an advantage on MK, you'd have to be pulling up statistics and win ratios for the second, third, fourth etc best Diddies when facing MKs.

Again, you were asked to argue (using tournament results) that ADHD or Ally's success can be replicated.
 

Judo777

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For anyone who cares i just ran the numbers and people have been posting on this board an average of 1 post every 5 minutes for 6 days straight......
 

MarKO X

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It flat out says going under twice is scrooging. By the time you had said your first comma, you had already scrooged.

If planking has a ledge grab limit, then that option is now invalid. Air camping if used to avoid combat is a form of stalling. SO then you get called for stalling and lose there. If air camping is used close enough to land a hit, then you are also close enough to be hit.
Oops, misread that twice part, but no need to fear.

I go under the stage. I plank and/or air camp. (ledge grab rules limit, not prevent, planking, obviously). damage occurs, I go under the stage again and repeat.

Once again, if I have the lead, I don't have to approach you. My air camping is simply an advantageous defensive position. There are no invincibility frames, save an air dodge, so I don't see how it's stalling. What character(s) are completely invalidated by air camping? please tell me.
 

AvariceX

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More fodder for OS:

Victory Road Pt.2
Jan 29, 2010
Entrants 16
Entry 5

1:Zero (Metaknight/DDD)
2:Enigma (Gaw)
3:Fox16 (Wario)
4:Vato_break (Mario)
5:S!A!D (Snake/Rob)
5:Jebus(Diddy)
7:Jason(Metaknight)
7:SpitFire(Metaknight)

http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=7493
16 person tourney with 3 MK's in top 8 lol. I've personally stopped caring whether he gets banned or not, but OS has the most well-constructed arguments here so I'll support him :)
 

Col. Stauffenberg

Smash Lord
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16-man tournies sure do mean a lot. Especially a 16-man tourney with none of our ranked players lolol.

*I* probably could have gone to that tourney and gotten first. As could a number of people in Socal.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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Matchup ratios often assume top pros to be at the same level. M2K skill= Ally Skill=ADHD skill.

My argument more so, was the match could be even or in snake or diddys favor. It could be and it is not completely unlikely. Not that it is a guarentee!!!!

The problem is there's no proof that they are equivalent in skill level.


Furthermore, the assumption is not "m2k skill level", it's top of the metagame technically speaking. M2k does not seem to be at the top of the metagame is if he just learned z grabbing...

How on earth does my sampling not have a control for skill?
How could it, that particular sampling is just touching on the top mks. It's data in the aether, the only real way to control is proportionally and compare to other mains.
 

UltimateRazer

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Razer has beaten Dojo in more than one tournament, but still has a losing track record. But picking him and only him as an example does not work because of the potential skill difference, hence why I've gathered the data for the best 9 MKs (RedHalberd might replace Seibrik if he goes to more tournaments, until then it's Seibrik).
Actually if you kept tracked, I believe we are tied when mk vs snake or I'm actually ahead a win. But recently I'm winning.
 

theunabletable

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16 person tourney with 3 MK's in top 8 lol. I've personally stopped caring whether he gets banned or not, but OS has the most well-constructed arguments here so I'll support him
lol none of those people are good. I haven't seen Zero play before, so I don't know how good he is, but the other ones who were there aren't that good.

They don't represent the current high level metagame at all.
 

Flayl

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Final Smash 5 - Razer beat Dojo
HOBO 14 - Dojo placed ahead (Razer lost to Infinity (MK))
College Brawl Vol. 1 - Dojo beat Razer
SWAT - Razer placed ahead of Dojo (who forfeit to let Santi play in GF)
Final Smash 6 - Razer beat Dojo
Oh Snap v5 - Dojo beat Razer
HOBO 19 - Dojo beat Razer
Phase 2 - Dojo beat Razer
Phase 3 - Dojo beat Razer
Hobo 21 - Razer beat Dojo
Final Smash 8 - Razer beat Dojo

6 - 4 for Dojo, 5 - 4 if HOBO 14 doesn't count. But yes, as results show you've beaten him recently.
 

Espy Rose

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Though just a side comment, Flayl, I think Dojo forfeit in winners bracket at SWAT. I think I would know, being that I had to play Dojo in loser's bracket.
lol.

He MIGHT have forfeit in losers as well, but I don't know that information quite well.

Just a little heads up, n' stuff.

Though I can't speak for the other tournaments.
 

Dekar173

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At SWAT Dojo forfeited twice, because it was supposed to be Santi's "going away from Smash" present. At least, that's the way I remember it. I know Dojo FF'd twice though.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Oops, misread that twice part, but no need to fear.

I go under the stage. I plank and/or air camp. (ledge grab rules limit, not prevent, planking, obviously). damage occurs, I go under the stage again and repeat.

Once again, if I have the lead, I don't have to approach you. My air camping is simply an advantageous defensive position. There are no invincibility frames, save an air dodge, so I don't see how it's stalling. What character(s) are completely invalidated by air camping? please tell me.
Aircamping it is possible to hit them, with Planking and Scooging, the way I'm thinking of it where your just going from ledge to ledge, many character can't hit them.

The stage places a physical barrier while they continue to wait it out. From the testing I've done on it at least somewhere between 17-22 character are invalidated by it. The tactics would be justified as positioning, but really running back and forth under the stage where you can't be hit? That sounds more like stalling.
 

UltimateRazer

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HOBO 14 - Dojo placed ahead (Razer lost to Infinity (MK))
College Brawl Vol. 1 - Dojo beat Razer
SWAT - Razer placed ahead of Dojo (who forfeit to let Santi play in GF)
Final Smash 6 - Razer beat Dojo
Oh Snap v5 - Dojo beat Razer
HOBO 19 - Dojo beat Razer
Phase 2 - Dojo beat Razer
Phase 3 - Dojo beat Razer
Hobo 21 - Razer beat Dojo
Final Smash 8 - Razer beat Dojo

6 - 4 for Dojo, 5 - 4 if HOBO 14 doesn't count. But yes, as results show you've beaten him recently.
Yeah I didn't play him at HOBO 14 so it shouldn't count. You also forgot that I beat him at FS5. So that would make it 5-5 :).
 

adumbrodeus

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Aircamping it is possible to hit them, with Planking and Scooging, the way I'm thinking of it where your just going from ledge to ledge, many character can't hit them.

The stage places a physical barrier while they continue to wait it out. From the testing I've done on it at least somewhere between 17-22 character are invalidated by it. The tactics would be justified as positioning, but really running back and forth under the stage where you can't be hit? That sounds more like stalling.
Is it impossible?

Then it's stalling, congrats.
 

deepseadiva

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For anyone who cares i just ran the numbers and people have been posting on this board an average of 1 post every 5 minutes for 6 days straight......
Yea, lol.

Every time I check this thread now, I just scroll the page for colored names and read those posts. :laugh:

Same thing I do with the tier list thread. It's fast, fun, and 80% less excruciating to my soul.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Is it impossible?

Then it's stalling, congrats.
For MK you have a 3 frame window if he does it right, and you need a move that outranges his Uair.

Or your psychic and can Power shield Uair a 2 frame move on reaction. If you can power shield it you can punish MK with a lot more tools.

There are some characters like Pika and Snake that can hit him without needing to guess and check what MK will do, but for the most part, it turns the game into counter planking or you lose.
 

Zodiac

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After every major tournament there's a call for a ban on meta knight... Take a hint.
 

*Tyson*

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Also there is unknown factors to everyone else. Like Razer having arguably the best practice on a constant bases (Gnes) while dojo had nothing at all for many months, thus resulting in never playing the game. Yes Razer is an amazing player and is constantly getting better (which i am happy about) but i also think the other has something to do with it as well.
 

Ax00x0

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I'm glad to see the MK debate is being re-opened, especially after the Pound 4 placings, but I have very much restrained opptimisn. Every vote, the public has favored him gone. Last time, so did the SBR...not the majority required to pass the act, byt a majority none the less. The pro-ban's writen argument was near flawless, citing how overcentralization is ruining the game and has completely evaporated the scene in entire areas/states, the list of MK's OP frame data, how he breaks the game's counter system, both stage and character wise (is broken) and how he's surpressing the desire to explore the rest of the cast's potential, and is almost a requiremnt if one wishes to do well at a major tournament. Oh, and MK takes a huge % of all tournament winnings totalled and averaged thus far.

The anti-ban's side argument could be be summed up as "nuh-uh", and provided virtually no evidence. I questioned many people who voted anti-ban on how they could do so when the pro-ban's written arguement was clearly better-surprisenly, many agreed, but said they voted against it anyways for X reason, and 100% of the time the reason was unrelated to the current debate, or completely stupid.

It takes a lot to ban a character, but what else is needed? The proof and arguemnts have been provided countless times. Another Pound where 8 of the top 10 has Mk at their disposal? More matches won due to time-outs/airstalling, not actual skill? I mean, I was flabbergasted at how easily players were DQ'D for being tardy, yet airstalling, something almostly completely unique to MK, went unpunished. Why hasn't this been enforced better, like planking? Why has 1 character caused 2 major rule changes not simply been banned, instead of just making up new rules to govern his alien nature?

As it stands, MK, the SBR, and the referee system is broken. There's hope though-these are (or rather, SHOULD be) easy fixes. The community simply needs to use logic to see past this injustice. Something radical has to be done at some form. AT LEAST, a "trial period" ban should be put on him, perhaps 6 months? If areas who have been ravaged by Mk overuse rebuild, and we start seeing more diverse tourney outcomes, I think that should be evidence enough that life would be beter without him. A test period is the least we owe this high strung debate.
 

swordgard

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I got a question for all of you, are we willing to sacrifice a character to get an healthier metagame if it is already healthy?(not insinuating anything, just a question)
 

Tien2500

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I got a question for all of you, are we willing to sacrifice a character to get an healthier metagame if it is already healthy?(not insinuating anything, just a question)
If a game's metagame was already healthy then you would have less to gain by changing anything. If a metagame is unhealthy than some sort of change needs to be made.
 

Sorto

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Sure.

He kicks ***.

Although that seems to be the common argument, I'd say it's not completely true. They know the matchup pretty well because they can beat the other Diddy's, but they don't know it well enough to fully exploit the hell out of it.

Even if they did, ADHD might still win because he's a masta.

And undergoing research.

The reason why this is false has already been shown. ADHD may very well be an outlier.

Although from my understanding, if you take out ADHD the MKs start beating all sorts of Diddy's.

There's historical precedence for the assumption that MK will pull ahead. But you're right that there is no proof.

You failed. All you have shown is that ADHD is exceptional, which was already known. In order to prove that Diddy actually has an advantage on MK, you'd have to be pulling up statistics and win ratios for the second, third, fourth etc best Diddies when facing MKs.

Again, you were asked to argue (using tournament results) that ADHD or Ally's success can be replicated.
how much better do you believe adhd to be then every other player. And i know az does very well against mks and is a decently big diddy player. The issue is, diddy is also not as popular as mk and his metagame is rather new, since the original leading force behind it, ninjalink abadonned it early on. Adhd is proof of what diddy can do. It is programmed into the game, and with human reaction time and brain and hand functions it is all possible. I have nothing against future bans of mk. But atm, i believe do it when the proof is staggering, when it really is play mk or get lost. Adhd and ally are still reasonably proof at the moment. The proof of possibility.
 

Overswarm

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For MK you have a 3 frame window if he does it right, and you need a move that outranges his Uair.

Or your psychic and can Power shield Uair a 2 frame move on reaction. If you can power shield it you can punish MK with a lot more tools.

There are some characters like Pika and Snake that can hit him without needing to guess and check what MK will do, but for the most part, it turns the game into counter planking or you lose.
If you just run up and shield where his dropping u-air hitbox will be, you either get a powershield or you don't. IF you don't, roll backwards and let your shield recharge. If you do, run off and bair/dair/whatever.

It's a flawless strategy; there is no risk. The issue with it is that it is inconsistent and at lower % the hit won't kill or stage spike the MK (meaning he could turn it around on you), not that you have to be super psychic.




Also, I'm thinking people should just ignore Sorto. We've posted data multiple times in multiple formats showing the exact players that have won against the top MKs over the past 4 or 5 months in more than one isolated incidence, data showing the performance of characters at the top level (both 150+ entrants and 140-149 entrants), have shown overall performance of characters in the metagame that pale in comparison to MK, among other things... all of which solidify the use of certain players as outliers and not a statistical trend, yet his entire argument hinges on "BUT ADHD!!!!!" and then continues to straw man and make assertions with no actual backing.

Oh, and pro tip: Matchup ratios are bogus.

Not only are they bogus, but the SBR doesn't even use them anymore. No one good does. Know why? They're arbitrary and don't mean anything.

55:45 in one forum is 60:40 in another, and 60:40 in one forum is 70:30 in another. All you can say is "advantage, disadvantage, neutral, heavy advantage, heavy disadvantage". That's it. You can't compare Diddy vs. MK to Snake vs. Marth. It's apples to oranges.

Oh, and the prominent Diddy mains say it's either in MKs favor or an even matchup. You're grasping at straws to confirm that Diddy merely has a chance to win. Really, come on. :\
 

Sorto

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409
Oops, misread that twice part, but no need to fear.

I go under the stage. I plank and/or air camp. (ledge grab rules limit, not prevent, planking, obviously). damage occurs, I go under the stage again and repeat.

Once again, if I have the lead, I don't have to approach you. My air camping is simply an advantageous defensive position. There are no invincibility frames, save an air dodge, so I don't see how it's stalling. What character(s) are completely invalidated by air camping? please tell me.
it depends how high you go. if you go high enough and can not be reached by your opponent then its a stall. Mk has a great down air. But most upairs will trade hits and mk trading hits is not a very beneficial thing as he is light and due to air camping is toward the top of the screen. he dair camps and hits your sheild well then he better be ready to take a majority of the casts upairs to the face. lets say jiggly somehow gets a stock advantage on an opponent all the same issues would apply, she could time you out too, its not the character, its the fact that stalling is banned and people still do it
 

etecoon

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Oh, and pro tip: Matchup ratios are bogus.

55:45 in one forum is 60:40 in another, and 60:40 in one forum is 70:30 in another. All you can say is "advantage, disadvantage, neutral, heavy advantage, heavy disadvantage". That's it. You can't compare Diddy vs. MK to Snake vs. Marth. It's apples to oranges.
it's still somewhat useful to give someone a rough idea what you think of a matchup beyond a simple "disadvantaged, even, advantaged", but in addition to those things making it unreliable matchups can also be extremely stage dependent in this game, meaning that they play out very differently depending on stage striking, CP's, what stages are legal in that region etc.

and being a slave to laziness I'd rather type 4:6 than "medium disadvantage" : p
 
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