Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
I agree with that.
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Official PAL Tier List (Melee)
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
juganthestar
Smash Journeyman
Shiek should be lowered
Ice Should be Higher >.<
Ice Should be Higher >.<
Spam-a-Lamb
Smash Journeyman
Screw Tier lists.
Play to Win!
Play to get better!
Play to Explore!
It doesnt matter. Just pick a character you're comfortable with and have fun.
(Complainers should be put in sleeper holds.)
Uh!
Play to Win!
Play to get better!
Play to Explore!
It doesnt matter. Just pick a character you're comfortable with and have fun.
(Complainers should be put in sleeper holds.)
Uh!
Good list.
I´m suprised Yoshi is so high tho.
I´d put Luigi in 2.nd tier bottom. Too good and kicks falco around.
That´s also the partial reason why shiek should stay top. Falco is great yea, get´s ***** tho if he gets grabbed and ****.
Good thing peach is top. Maybe if there were good CF players in europe he´d make it into top too ?
I´m suprised Yoshi is so high tho.
I´d put Luigi in 2.nd tier bottom. Too good and kicks falco around.
That´s also the partial reason why shiek should stay top. Falco is great yea, get´s ***** tho if he gets grabbed and ****.
Good thing peach is top. Maybe if there were good CF players in europe he´d make it into top too ?
Cronos_Rainbow
Smash Champion
VilNess - nah 
Roy is sexy - I don't even care what tier he's in I know hes ultimate
People who lose Fox dittos and say "NO! You got lucky! Again!" in a strong french accent are also douches right Helios? XD
Roy is sexy - I don't even care what tier he's in I know hes ultimate
People who lose Fox dittos and say "NO! You got lucky! Again!" in a strong french accent are also douches right Helios? XD
shoe
Smash Ace
Playing low tier because it is cool is dumb, plaing low tier because it's a good excuse is even more stupid, but there is nothing wrong with playing low tier for the fun, and the surprise aspect they can bring. By now I've come to the point that I'd probably have more faith in my Luigi beating a Peach, than going into the ditto. Playing low tier to win equals playing top tier to win imo.
Thank you Shoe =)
Are you going to ATM1:2? If so, BEER MATCH!
Shaz - Yes, yes it does.
Are you going to ATM1:2? If so, BEER MATCH!
Shaz - Yes, yes it does.
Mewtwo should be above pichu, And kirby above bowser.
Thats just my personal opinion.
As far as playing low teir for a john excuse or because it's cool, seriously you can say that for any character low teir or high teir.
Its the people that chose to play accordingly to the teir list that are the douches.
Thats just my personal opinion.
As far as playing low teir for a john excuse or because it's cool, seriously you can say that for any character low teir or high teir.
Its the people that chose to play accordingly to the teir list that are the douches.
mr_joey132
Smash Ace
wtf are douches? -_-' in Holland it means showers.. I don't think you mean that.
shoe
Smash Ace
Helios: I don't think that I'll make it onto the list seeing the stupid reserve list.
Joey: dat zijn mietjes
Joey: dat zijn mietjes
TelpeFion
Smash Lord
MIETJES!
As for the list, good job. I'm semi-disappointed with no Finns getting to vote, but on the other hand I can understand that. The list itself is good IMO. I would definitely have reversed the placings of Falcon and the ICs, as well as Pikachu and YL. But good job guys.
As for the list, good job. I'm semi-disappointed with no Finns getting to vote, but on the other hand I can understand that. The list itself is good IMO. I would definitely have reversed the placings of Falcon and the ICs, as well as Pikachu and YL. But good job guys.
Doraki
Smash Lord
lol is that me ? of course, fox dittos rely only on luck, except when I win, in which case, it's because I'm simply more talented. Right ?VilNess - nah
Roy is sexy - I don't even care what tier he's in I know hes ultimate
People who lose Fox dittos and say "NO! You got lucky! Again!" in a strong french accent are also douches right Helios? XD
FrostByte
Smash Lord
I'm sorry, but I just had to ROFL at that.
Omadon
Internal Combustion Power
LIES! ALL LIES!
Beyond that I can't really disagree with the list. Though from a purley British point of view I'm inclined to put Peach above Fox o.o But then again, I'd have Marth above Peach.. but Fox above Marth? All seems somewhat paradoxical, and probably horribly biased, as I am quite a Peach fan myself
So.. I'm not sure what I'm getting at :DOther than that Kirby should so be higher >.> I'd go as far as to put him over Ness any day.
Women's hygene products. Lets not go any futher with this though.
Linkje
Smash Lord
that's a giant douche ......
or a turd sandwich ?
or a turd sandwich ?
Makenshi
Smash Apprentice
why Link is in low tier :'( ! it is good when you know played with him
(see Aniki ! just sheik can stop it ! )
(see Aniki ! just sheik can stop it ! )
Mr P
Smash Ace
haha makenshi i know, i was the only one who didnt put link in low tier.
Makenshi
Smash Apprentice
Next tournamant, i will play Link and.. i will own everybady :embarrass
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Pretty cool list. I didn't realize that Sheik was still so overpowered even with all those weakenings.
Sheik is wayyyy too high, imo. NTSC Sheik would certainly be top material, but her major dthrow and uair nerfs put her at a clear disadvantage compared to the minor changes of those also in the top tier. She may still be better than Peach, but certainly not Falco, who has a near impenetrable offense and defense.
Mr P
Smash Ace
I do agree with you that Falco is certainly a better character than sheik as not a lot happend to Falco, sure he lost his spike but his d air is still a beast. But even though sheik lost her dthrow and u air she wasnt the character that got nerfed the worst in top tier. Fox got gimped worse if you ask me, him losing recovery length, power on his up smash and a lot of weight. Instead of the matches he wins in NTSC like against sheik and maybe about even with Marth, in PAL sheik is a very hard match for him and i think Helios would argue certainly that Marth beats fox in PAL, characters like Peach and many other will take a fox player a lot closer too, thats really the reason why sheik was placed above fox although i cant really defend Falco being placed lower. I personally placed both above sheik but the general concensus was that sheik was the best overall, mainly due the performances of Captain Jack and Amsah. OH and Sheik does still win vs Peach in Pal i think, but only just its very stage dependant
Come play Amsah, then say this with a straight face =P
I have plenty of experience with both PAL and NTSC play. And I've played M2K's Sheik a lot... does that count? We played a fair amount of PAL games previously and found a drastic change in the Peach/Sheik match due to dthrow and uair being nerfed to oblivion. As Peach I could pretty much CC everything without pretty major punishment, to his frustration. Sheik's grabs went from being a death sentence to being no punishment at all, her tilts still remain CCable to reasonably high percents, and they're all easily DI'd to prevent combos. Peach's dtilt also remains as potent as ever against Sheik. I could also risk taking a hit from uair, which is otherwise 80% of my causes of death in NTSC. The only major threat I can see from PAL Sheik is her needle canceling.
Marth is notably another very hard match for Sheik in PAL due to her changes. Marth's CC-grab is absurdly powerful against Sheik because of her lack of a grab game, which pretty much only leaves Sheik with needle approaches that Marth can cancel out anyway. Even in NTSC, a Marth who employs the CC-grab technique a lot has very good odds of taking out Sheik, Azen being the best example of this.
I already explained most of Sheik's differences in the vs. Peach paragraph. In general, dthrow-tilt/aerial and uair killing are a large part of her game against anything that isn't a fast faller. Her game against fast fallers is generally the same, as dthrow never lead into straight combos and uair is a comparatively ineffective killer as opposed to fair. That might even be a good thing against certain characters, as uair juggles become more viable. Floaties, namely Marth and Peach, become a huge threat.
Fox's usmash did get weakened, but not to the extent of Sheik's uair so that it takes 30+ more damage to kill. Uthrow-uair is the killing method of choice even now in NTSC. If they can't hit the enemy with an uthrow to uair combo, that means they're a floaty and usmash still kills at low percents anyway. The recovery issue is also moot for the most part, as Forward+B is his primary recovery move, which did not get shortened.
When we played around with Falco, what we observed was the second half of his dair hit window being unable to spike. The first half, still a reasonably large window of time, spikes perfectly, and none of us judged this as game breaking. Thus, Falco is free to own everyone in almost the same SHL-abusing manner as his NTSC counterpart, while Sheik has to work much harder for her kills and damage than she did before. Her DIable tilts and dthrow are nothing compared to Falco's pillaring.
The weight changes in general are not strong enough to make or break placings except in the event of Marth getting knocked over by Fox's shine. Otherwise we're talking a 4-5% damage differential at most when it comes to how much the various weight changes affect sending power.
As someone who owns and plays both versions, I would rank the PAL Top 5 this way:
Falco/Marth
Fox/Sheik
Peach
Anything below them essentially remains the same.
Marth is notably another very hard match for Sheik in PAL due to her changes. Marth's CC-grab is absurdly powerful against Sheik because of her lack of a grab game, which pretty much only leaves Sheik with needle approaches that Marth can cancel out anyway. Even in NTSC, a Marth who employs the CC-grab technique a lot has very good odds of taking out Sheik, Azen being the best example of this.
I already explained most of Sheik's differences in the vs. Peach paragraph. In general, dthrow-tilt/aerial and uair killing are a large part of her game against anything that isn't a fast faller. Her game against fast fallers is generally the same, as dthrow never lead into straight combos and uair is a comparatively ineffective killer as opposed to fair. That might even be a good thing against certain characters, as uair juggles become more viable. Floaties, namely Marth and Peach, become a huge threat.
Fox's usmash did get weakened, but not to the extent of Sheik's uair so that it takes 30+ more damage to kill. Uthrow-uair is the killing method of choice even now in NTSC. If they can't hit the enemy with an uthrow to uair combo, that means they're a floaty and usmash still kills at low percents anyway. The recovery issue is also moot for the most part, as Forward+B is his primary recovery move, which did not get shortened.
When we played around with Falco, what we observed was the second half of his dair hit window being unable to spike. The first half, still a reasonably large window of time, spikes perfectly, and none of us judged this as game breaking. Thus, Falco is free to own everyone in almost the same SHL-abusing manner as his NTSC counterpart, while Sheik has to work much harder for her kills and damage than she did before. Her DIable tilts and dthrow are nothing compared to Falco's pillaring.
The weight changes in general are not strong enough to make or break placings except in the event of Marth getting knocked over by Fox's shine. Otherwise we're talking a 4-5% damage differential at most when it comes to how much the various weight changes affect sending power.
As someone who owns and plays both versions, I would rank the PAL Top 5 this way:
Falco/Marth
Fox/Sheik
Peach
Anything below them essentially remains the same.
mr_joey132
Smash Ace
I thought tier list was about what characters are best IF PLAYED ON THE SAME SKILL LVL.. or am I wrong? lol. If I ain't wrong, taking Amsah as a reason why Sheik is so high isn't a good reason, because he's skill is way better than the skill of teh other players. (@Helios)
TelpeFion
Smash Lord
I agree with Ryoko about the Sheik vs. Peach matchup. I'd say that in NTSC it's Sheik > Peach, but in PAL it's the other way round. No easy KO off a grab or even a tilt really hurts Sheik in PAL.
Ryoko - I said come play AMSAH, not m2k
I still claim there's a huge difference between the way we utilize this character in europe and in the US, altho players like KDJ are narrowing the gap quite a bit.
I don't know about peach vs sheik, but sheik still beats marth, fox and falco hands down.
Joey - Ehm, exactly what are you talking about?
I still claim there's a huge difference between the way we utilize this character in europe and in the US, altho players like KDJ are narrowing the gap quite a bit.
I don't know about peach vs sheik, but sheik still beats marth, fox and falco hands down.
Joey - Ehm, exactly what are you talking about?
I think what Joey is trying to say is that the tier list saying Sheik > everyone shouldn't be based upon the fact that Amsah, CJ's level is way > everyone. It's a valid point of concern, especially with the PAL community being as dispersed as it is. That and tier lists in general are not based 100% on what goes down in tourney and are much more theoretical. I mean, tier lists have always been based on the fundamentals of "character potential" and the players involved being of "equal skill level." Do any Marth or Falco mains at Amsah's/CJ's level exist in your scene?
I dunno what Falcos in particular exist outside the states aside from Bombsoldier (who isn't PAL anyway) but Sheik will always have a HORRIBLE time defeating him. Sheik has the same problems everyone else does with Falco except her moves also suck at building up his damage without getting SHL/pillared to death. Sheik's difficulties against Falco was never based on her dthrow not sending fast fallers low off the edge or that her uair not have enough juggling potential either, so the PAL changes are mostly irrelevant.
And, in PAL, Sheik will also have a horrible time fighting a smart Peach. In NTSC Sheik has an advantage, but it's largely based upon grab-dthrow leading straight into damage and eventually KOs, and uair killing Peach outright at low percents which negates Peach's recovery advantage. Without the uair, Peach is extremely hard to kill - harder than it is for Peach to kill Sheik.
I dunno what Falcos in particular exist outside the states aside from Bombsoldier (who isn't PAL anyway) but Sheik will always have a HORRIBLE time defeating him. Sheik has the same problems everyone else does with Falco except her moves also suck at building up his damage without getting SHL/pillared to death. Sheik's difficulties against Falco was never based on her dthrow not sending fast fallers low off the edge or that her uair not have enough juggling potential either, so the PAL changes are mostly irrelevant.
And, in PAL, Sheik will also have a horrible time fighting a smart Peach. In NTSC Sheik has an advantage, but it's largely based upon grab-dthrow leading straight into damage and eventually KOs, and uair killing Peach outright at low percents which negates Peach's recovery advantage. Without the uair, Peach is extremely hard to kill - harder than it is for Peach to kill Sheik.
mr_joey132
Smash Ace
yea, that's what I mean.
J03
Smash Master
not that the tier list really makes that much difference i dont think sheik should be at the top, she should at least be second to falco. sure shes easier to use, but im sure amsah would be just as good has he taken up fox, marth or peach. the char doesnt make the player...or is helios just making deep johns
other then that...swap mario and link, you know im right ^^
other then that...swap mario and link, you know im right ^^
Oh my god, no no no
Ryoko, it's quite obvious that you don't know the true potential of sheik vs the fastfallers. Even Amsah would agree with me here, altho he doesn't have access to the internet for the time being.
Hell, you're underestimating sheik, plain and simple.
Ryoko, it's quite obvious that you don't know the true potential of sheik vs the fastfallers. Even Amsah would agree with me here, altho he doesn't have access to the internet for the time being.
Hell, you're underestimating sheik, plain and simple.
What's there to underestimate? I've seen a great deal of top-level NTSC Sheik, and they all struggle against the top Falcos. I know Sheik does a number on Fox and CF, but fighting a top notch Falco is a different story entirely.
I know you main Falco yourself, but your distaste for CJ/Amsah's Sheik is better explained by CJ/Amsah > you, not that Sheik > Falco. "Sheik owns Falco hands down" is a fallacy.
I know you main Falco yourself, but your distaste for CJ/Amsah's Sheik is better explained by CJ/Amsah > you, not that Sheik > Falco. "Sheik owns Falco hands down" is a fallacy.
Well, to be quite honest, I also believe NTSC sheiks aren't as good vs the space animals as the PAL ones are. It is my firm belief that Amsah would embarrass KDJ in terms of knowledge of the character, but I can only go by what I've seen. I hope Amsah gets a chance to go **** Americans soon ^^
Mr P
Smash Ace
I wont be able to paragraph this because of my keyboard, bare with it. Ryoko: First question, who wins between you and mew2king sheik vs peach ? My guess is that mew2king wins, even if he is a better player it doesnt really do a lot to help your case does it ? I know Sheik got screwed big time with the down throw and her ability to KO with the upair but sheik can still combo Peach badly with her d throw. D thow into dash attack and then f air, sheik is still pretty much guarenteed to combo something out of her down throw, its pretty nasty. Peach has the same CC game in PAL vs sheik as in NTSC and a good sheik will know how to deal with it most of the time, if the sheik plays it really safe with needles and smart apraoches she definately still has the upperhand vs Peach in PAL. I think the only way i can be convinced otherwise is if either A) i start beating Amsah hahaha or B) Mikael comes over and ***** him.......................................................................................................................................................................... ......................I think Both Helios and Ryoko make good points about the Sheik vs Fox/Falco matchups and i think they are both right to a degree. Amsah is certainly better than Helios but i also think that Amsah has a greater knowledge of Sheik than KDJ does, he also definately has better edgeguarding vs the space animals, he just knows how to gimp them much better. But to the same degree PC chris has a better falco than helios, its really hard to judge who wins in PAL, we might have to hope that PC comes over so that we can see how well a top level pal Sheik can handle a top level Falco. It also should be noted that since the knockback reduction on sheiks up air ithas become AMAZING at comboing space animals.
Fuzzyness
The Reality!
i was playing ntsc today, i believe shiek is a lot more likey to win in games due to the advantages of his throw although fox and falco and marth are a lot better in these versions too, making them stand a lot more of a chance against shiek. After playing it for a bit i realised it wasnt too bad compared to pal, just mainly shiek gays low tiers which eliminates the likelyness of people playing them in tourneys (eg: Shiek VS Link). After a discussion of versions i feel pal is more balanced due to mainly the shiek nerf which obviouisly allows low tier to stand more of a chance.
Kinda get used to ntsc after a while since it feels the same and generally the better player wins still
Kinda get used to ntsc after a while since it feels the same and generally the better player wins still
i think the teir list seams alright but link is defently far to low and some of the lower teir charicters might need tweeked out.
and yeah i think sheik dose well agenst fox and gose even with falco though i do think sheik has a tuff game agenst peach, i dont know about ntsc but in pal, peach has the advantige.
and yeah i think sheik dose well agenst fox and gose even with falco though i do think sheik has a tuff game agenst peach, i dont know about ntsc but in pal, peach has the advantige.
Doraki
Smash Lord
well.. the mid tier aren't as bad as in NTSC where top tier is more overpowered..
but it's still not THAT great.
but it's still not THAT great.