[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[SmashChu]

Look, all I'm saying is that there is more than one way to approach this which you don't seem to understand.

Yes, I could go ahead and go into a slow game when I'm starting a game for the first time, OR I can go ahead, learn the mechanics and controls, and then go into the game at its default speed.

Here's a real life experience for you. Today, I went into a soccer game not knowing much of what I was supposed to do since I'm not used to team sports (I'm more of a martial arts guy) along with all the strategy involved in the game. If the game was moving slowly, I would've gotten bored. If I learned the rules and had some tips, among other things, I would've had an easier time getting into the game.

First understand that Smashn is not that slow, but competitive players still complain about it. Those people are more proficient, so they would want the game to be faster. You have a competitive player mindset, so you would also want the game to be faster. But new players need to be able to get into the game.

You are trying to argue simple logic, but are not looking at it in a reasonable matter
Players who are new need the game to be slower to adapt. So, a slower start is best for default as most new players will play on default.

Basically, you have to prove that statement wrong.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Look, all I'm saying is that there is more than one way to approach this which you don't seem to understand.

Yes, I could go ahead and go into a slow game when I'm starting a game for the first time, OR I can go ahead, learn the mechanics and controls, and then go into the game at its default speed.

Here's a real life experience for you. Today, I went into a soccer game not knowing much of what I was supposed to do since I'm not used to team sports (I'm more of a martial arts guy) along with all the strategy involved in the game. If the game was moving slowly, I would've gotten bored. If I learned the rules and had some tips, among other things, I would've had an easier time getting into the game.

How are you not getting this? People prefer things to be slow and basic when they first get into something. That's up there with "people like money" for most obvious things ever.

The only argument I seem to be getting from you is "I want the default setting to be faster so I don't have to go into options the first time I boot up the game." Be more selfish, please.

And in regards to a speed switch, I can't help but think that it may not turn out as well as hoped. The thing is that even if the speed switch could be set up like items, so that it would just start up with the desired level when you start up the game, I would think there would be fissures in the fanbase as to what speed the game would be set at. To that end I think that when it comes to game speeds it would be better to have only 3 or 5 options at most, with 3 being better in my eyes.

We have three right now, the problem is that two of them are rather extreme for most people.

I'd be very VERY surprised if such a feature led to any serious rifts among fans. Even the item switch isn't a big deal at all. Most people probably wouldn't bother touching it, the way they rarely mess around with the damage ratio.

If you're concerned about the competitive community though, I could care less. They'll decide on something either way.

 

[Pieman0920]

We have three right now, the problem is that two of them are rather extreme for most people.

I'd be very VERY surprised if such a feature led to any serious rifts among fans. Even the item switch isn't a big deal at all. Most people probably wouldn't bother touching it, the way they rarely mess around with the damage ratio.

If you're concerned about the competitive community though, I could care less. They'll decide on something either way.

I remember you mentioning that it would be like the item switch, and I remember thinking to myself that something like that doesn't really stack up, but for some reason I didn't say it at the time. Items in general are simply turned off. They are out of sight, and out of mind. The speed though is something you have to have in the game....or you simply wouldn't have a game. What people want as the ideal speed for a tournament may go into flux if there are too many options to go with, because if there are so many opitions for it, different fractions are sure to rise up. If you keep the amounts of choices for speeds fairly low though, you'll certainly get everyone to agree on something as far as the competative scene is concerned. Also if you do not view items in the competative light, and are just applying them to a casual match setting when making a analogy to a speed control, then again its still a bit unapt given that one is a series of options, while the other is a meter. In addition, if you're just playing for fun, any exact number of speed really won't matter all that much.

When I say 3 or 5 setting for speed, I meant that in a sense of something viable, rather than what's been given in both Melee and Brawl, which aren't the same as the proposed thing anyways, as they are parts of special Melee/Brawl. Instead I think a Begining, Intermediate, and Advanced style of speed switch or equivilent if the speed is in five or so tiers.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

you win this one Koopa, since I no longer wish to fight. :V

Yay, that wasn't completely useless. We at least got viewpoints and stuff and so on thrown around,, but I am interested to see what you consider a "Good Choice" Anyways.

Anywho, speaking of which, since you mentioned M&L In there: I personally think Paper Mario/Mario RPG's in general need a stage next time around. Of mario games, they for sure are the most in-depth plot ones. I still however wonder what would've happened If (SPOILERS)

Spoiler

Mario and his group accidentally killed Peach as well in the final battle.

Hypothetical but whatever.

I've stated my personal location of a Paper Mario stage: The Thousand Year Door. It's just where all conflict unrolls in the game, and It's not that other locations aren't interesting, It's just that I feel they aren't as interesting/have as much relevance/we have Locations from other games that are a better pick.

However, Excess Express and Glitzville would also be cool. Rogueport could work pretty decently, possibly walk-off and have people in town in general talk. Maybe something Delfino-Esque to give it more spice. I'm still undecided since with playing TTYD so many interesting settings come into mind for a smash stage with each chapter.

 

[Pieman0920]

I consider Ridley and Little Mac as good picks. Anyone else is slightly to much less likely than that in my eyes.

As I've said in the stage discussion topic, TTYD probably won't get a stage. Usually Sakurai goes for the earliest in a game series or the latest in a game series when considering the stages, and thus it would likely be a SPM stage. (Most notably Flipside/Flopside) Also, Excess Express probably wouldn't get in due to how likely a Spirit Track stage is, Glitzville probably won't due to how likley a Punch Out ring stage/New Pokemon Stadium style stage are, and Rogueport would essentially be the same as Flipside/Flopside but not as recent.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I consider Ridley and Little Mac as good picks. Anyone else is slightly to much less likely than that in my eyes.

...Not really to argue anything, but I must say that is a tad bit limited. Oh well, different viewpoints are different.

As I've said in the stage discussion topic, TTYD probably won't get a stage. Usually Sakurai goes for the earliest in a game series or the latest in a game series when considering the stages, and thus it would likely be a SPM stage. (Most notably Flipside/Flopside) Also, Excess Express probably wouldn't get in due to how likely a Spirit Track stage is, Glitzville probably won't due to how likley a Punch Out ring stage/New Pokemon Stadium style stage are, and Rogueport would essentially be the same as Flipside/Flopside but not as recent.

Forgot about Punch-Out; See, I told you. So many good locations already have a similar style taken. We don't know how many new Zelda games they'll release after Spirit Tracks before Brawl comes out.

But I agree on the SPM Part. Sadly I just felt Flipside/Flopside was so lifeless as opposed to Rogueport. While It'd still be so cool; It just doesn't seem to have much of a lasting appeal in potential. In Only one can hope we can have a new Paper Mario game that falls under similar to TTYD.

I'm still moreso on having TTYD or Rogueport. Those just seem to image better in my head, but as long as we get the music from other ones, I'll live with Flipside/Flopside (Or whatever in the world they could think up from the original)

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Pieman: I actually usually compare it to the damage ratio, in that most people would probably ignore it. Competitive players will eventually figure out whatever they want (or have multiple accepted levels), but whatever happens there doesn't matter either way since the competitive scene is such a tiny part of the fanbase.

 

[Jerome]

I must ask did the creators realize Marth could do an infinite on Ness and Lucas? Also did they purposely made Falco and King Dedede able to chaingrab? I find chaingrabing and Marth's infintite VERY cheap. Would it be a good idea if Nintendo removed infinites and chaingrabs in SSB4? Well if you asked me it would balance the roster more and having a more balanced roster is what the next Smash needs! Please! No more broken characters like Metaknight and Snake. I hope they get nerfed. I don't want them to suck I just want them more fair...

 

[Big-Cat]

First understand that Smashn is not that slow, but competitive players still complain about it. Those people are more proficient, so they would want the game to be faster. You have a competitive player mindset, so you would also want the game to be faster. But new players need to be able to get into the game.

You are trying to argue simple logic, but are not looking at it in a reasonable matter
Players who are new need the game to be slower to adapt. So, a slower start is best for default as most new players will play on default.

Basically, you have to prove that statement wrong.

Again, you're using very specific and extreme statements. I'm sure that it's more than just competitive players that would like the game to be faster. A common thing I see in this thread for some people new to the thread involves making the game a little faster, and I don't think every one of them is a competitive player.

Oh, you say I have a competitive player mindset and that I want the game to be faster? If I recall correctly, you were saying that competitive players want their games to be harder, no? Look, not everyone that is a competitive player wants it harder. If anything, most of them probably just want the gameplay to have a lot of depth so they have a reason to keep playing the game. You'll hear that some players might want X move to be easier to land; during my time at SRK, I have yet to see a lot of people wanting to make things harder overall.

I understand that new players need to be able to get into the game. We've had this discussion before. New players can start of with the basics and then climb up the ladder. At the same time, they can do the easiest difficult on Classic Mode since they shouldn't get slaughtered. They don't have to play anyone that's MLG level. Remember, competition is to find out who's the best, and it's completely optional. It's not like I bought Soul Calibur II and was forced to go into competitions. I just played it casually because I had no desire to go competitive.

How are you not getting this? People prefer things to be slow and basic when they first get into something. That's up there with "people like money" for most obvious things ever.

The only argument I seem to be getting from you is "I want the default setting to be faster so I don't have to go into options the first time I boot up the game." Be more selfish, please.

The only argument I get from you is "I want the game to be slow so I can go in right away even though I have no idea what I'm doing." I wonder if you're the one being selfish here.

Yes, people, and that includes myself, like to start off slow, but you're acting as if that's the only thing you need. When I'm sparring, it doesn't make a difference to me how slow my opponent moves if I don't know what to do. With stuff like the Bayonetta tutorial, I'm shown what I have to do and what ways I can be defensive. Then I'm tossed into the game at its default speed and conditions, but I know what to expect and how to handle the situation.

Now, is it a bad idea to have this feature or to go into training mode? Unless people are that impatient, I don't see what's wrong with making the default setting a little faster.

By the way Toise, you did not answer my question from my earlier post: What would be TOO slow?

 

[NeverFiniteX]

The only argument I seem to be getting from you is "I want the default setting to be faster so I don't have to go into options the first time I boot up the game." Be more selfish, please.

Here we go again,

Spoiler

THE ALMIGHTY

Toise

Let the man have his opinion, not everyone sees things the way you do Toise (I wonder how many times I'm going to repeat that). In actuality, giving the game customizable default opinons isn't that bad of an idea. Remember the whole thing with Stock and Time? If you've ever played Melee on an emulator, that savestate option becomes rather friendly

From my own observation, I tried training with all types of settings from stamina to speeds. Somewhere between I recognized that theres only so much that you can understand from each; fortunately, the designers established a little thing called 'Default' in hopes that we might master it first off.

Kuma
I see that you are more often competative minded and your ideal match is 1v1. However, Smash is designed for every gamer in mind, by all modes and all available players. The game must have some middle ground between each type of gamer. This is why I am a little uneasy when you mention things like a combo meter or FS cutscenes. Are they always appliciable in most scenarios? Is there a Competitive Mode or a Casual Mode? No, so far there's just 'Smash'.

Toise
It seems that you often have a knack for over defending New players and their capabilities.
How smart is our gamer?

A new player can play at their own pace, no one is forcing the gamer to play with these settings and apparently, the designers figured that their defualt was easy enough to understand, in any case they must get their product out the door. If what Chu stated before is common for most "People want to get to the meat of the game first" then who can the gamer blame for all the random things that happen their first time playing when they want to play match between three other people, items on Very High?
How smart is our gamer?

Are most of these problems relative to say Halo?

Let's Review:

You play the campaign. You get some weapons here and there. Press 'X' to pick up. The reminders diminish after level 3. The difficulty increases as you progress. You fail. You try again, but fail again. You get frustrated, you turn the game off. You feel like playing again. You succeed. Game Over. Lets see how well can you do on the multiplayer.

Is there an unseen code here? Which avenue should the gamer choose? How smart is our gamer?

Has Smash deviated so far from natural patterns? SSB(1) introduced what the game had to offer in its story mode and most of us who played it turned out ok (well...there's Chu). Even with some of the issues with the new adventure mode in Melee, Brawl still tallied greater revenues within a shorter peroid of its release. Can you answer me this one question? : How smart is our gamer?

Side-

doesn't matter either way since the competitive scene is such a tiny part of the fanbase.

That statement makes me wonder what reason you have for the major portion of the fanbase. I could almost pull my hair out at the mention of such a statement.

 

[Big-Cat]

Kuma
I see that you are more often competative minded and your ideal match is 1v1. However, Smash is designed for every gamer in mind, by all modes and all available players. The game must have some middle ground between each type of gamer. This is why I am a little uneasy when you mention things like a combo meter or FS cutscenes. Are they always appliciable in most scenarios? Is there a Competitive Mode or a Casual Mode? No, so far there's just 'Smash'.

I have to admit, I do forget this from time to time, but every now and then, I get back to reality that Smash is more than one on one. I agree that Smash should always have the different types of modes available for different kinds of gamers. I'm just concerned about the competitive community, but I would be stupid if I didn't care about the casual audience. That's why I'm trying to find a middle ground when it comes to mechanics.

In fact, after some thought, you may have noticed that I changed my mind on FS cutscenes. Aside from changing the flow of the game, it would more than likely create problems if there are two simultaneous Final Smashes or more. The combo meter idea, however, would probably work just fine, but I am curious how that would fill up the meter in a four player match.

 

[Pieman0920]

Forgot about Punch-Out; See, I told you. So many good locations already have a similar style taken. We don't know how many new Zelda games they'll release after Spirit Tracks before Brawl comes out.

But I agree on the SPM Part. Sadly I just felt Flipside/Flopside was so lifeless as opposed to Rogueport. While It'd still be so cool; It just doesn't seem to have much of a lasting appeal in potential. In Only one can hope we can have a new Paper Mario game that falls under similar to TTYD.

I'm still moreso on having TTYD or Rogueport. Those just seem to image better in my head, but as long as we get the music from other ones, I'll live with Flipside/Flopside (Or whatever in the world they could think up from the original)

Stage from the original Paper Mario....probably Toad Town I guess. It seems that the main hubs in all three games are the best choices for stages representing the games given that most other ones are specialized parts that only get focus in about one chapter or so. In any case, Toad Town would likely be like Rogueport or Flipside/Flopside, but it would have a good number of toads and other things roaming around in the background. I still think that Flipside/Flopside would be more likely, but as I said, Sakurai does sometimes go for the earliest in a game series when picking a stage.

@Toise: The competative scene is only a small part of Smash's overall fanbase, but its probably the only one to really use a speed setting like that seriously, especially if it automatically adjusts the multiplayer mode, ala the item switch. I just can't see casual players caring that much if the speed could be adjusted to any detailed degree.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Toise
You say that we, as competetive players, are too lazy/selfish to go into options to tone the speed up, but why aren't casuals too lazy/selfish to go into options and tone the speed down?

 

[n88]

Casuals are more likely to be lazy and not change the settings, especially if they haven't played Smash before, and there are more casuals than competitives. Seems logical to me that the default speed should be casual-friendly.

 

[Big-Cat]

Casuals are more likely to be lazy and not change the settings, especially if they haven't played Smash before, and there are more casuals than competitives. Seems logical to me that the default speed should be casual-friendly.

To me, this is like saying that slow speed is basically easy mode. We already have that what with the easy modes in Classic Mode and the Computer Levels which can be easily set to 1. I have a seven year old sister and she pretty much started like this. She's no pro (which would say something about the design of the game), but she can play the game without asking me for help.

If a seven year old can start with these settings, so can casual gamers. There's no need to have a slow setting just so beginners can break in. Like I said before, there's more than one way to break in a beginner.

 

[n88]

@Kuma

This is about what I was thinking for speed:

1---2---3---4---5

1=Slo-Mo
2=Very Slow
3=Brawl-like Physics (Default)
4=Melee-like Physics
5=Super Speed

And, for the record, when I say speed, I'm referring to everything that makes the gameplay faster (Hitstun, Gravity, etc.), not Dash Speed.

 

[Big-Cat]

I know what you mean by speed, but I'm telling you there's more than one way to go about this.

What you have for the speed scale is the same as the established difficulty scale.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I've said this before but I hope the speed for SSB4 is slightly faster than that for Brawl. To me, Melee was too hectic for anything outside of one on one especially if items were involved. It also didn't help that a lot of Melee's stages were very illsuited for 4 players. Brawl got it right when it came to stage size but, in exchange, it seems that more of the items were what I'd label "broken."

 

[Jarxo]

Remove all clones! redesign them, add Krystal,Waluigi,Midna, and so on XD

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I like clones, and dislike Krystla, Midna, and Waluigi

but meh, you're entitled to your own opinion.

 

[★Chaos★]

more sega,all nintendo, with no copies would be awesome!

 

[MasterLucario69]

Super Mario Bros. and Spin-offs
Mario
Luigi*
Peach
Bowser
Toad* (with moves from NSMBWii)
DK
Diddy Kong
King K. Rool*
Yoshi
Kamek*
Wario
Waluigi* (if he appears in a Wario game before SSB4 is announced)

Legend of Zelda
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf*
Toon Link*
Toon Zelda/Tetra*
Vaati*

Pokemon
Pikachu
Jigglypuff*
Mewtwo*
Pokemon Trainer (Piplup, Grotle, Inferape)
Lucario*
Fifth Gen Pokemon*

Metroid
Samus/Zero Suit Samus
Ridley*

Star Fox
Fox
Falco*
Wolf
Krystal OR Leon* (Krystal has more potential, but Leon is more popular in Japan)

F-Zero
Captain Falcon
Black Shadow*

Mother
Ness
Lucas*
Claus*

Fire Emblem
Marth*
Ike
New FE Lord (if we get a new lord before SSB4 is released) OR Black Knight*

Retro/Other Nintendo Series
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game & Watch*
Pit
R.O.B.*
Little Mac*
Mach Rider*
Balloon Fighter*
Captain Olimar
Stafy
Isaac*

Third Party
Snake*
Sonic*
Megaman*
Banjo & Kazooie*

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I like clones, and dislike Krystla, Midna, and Waluigi

but meh, you're entitled to your own opinion.

You should've seen my Alter-Ego's idea then anyways.

Anyhow, now then, about default speed:
It doesn't really matter what the Default speed is on, but it SHOULD Be on the option most regular to newcomers that isn't completely slow, because I have to be honest here. While I'm more of a "Competitive" Player, when I played Melee, I was just shocked at how fast it was with Melee as oppossed to Smash 64, but when I replayed that, Smash 64 felt a bit too slow.

It doesn't really matter much anyways because If you hate changing it everytime with your disc, you can have a "Save Settings" Option thrown in there too. Presto, awesomeness.

@FMOI: And that is why I wish fourside was back. It's a PERFECT Stage for brawl but it was awful in melee. I have a stage builder copy that I play so much with friends and it doesn't even have the authentic music/backrounds. I'm very tempted to hack my disc just for Fourside.

/Fourside fanbias

Super Mario Bros. and Spin-offs etc yay roster

If you're wanting a realism taste, take out:
-Waluigi (Better wario characters who are actually wario characters)
-Banjo Kazooie (*Insert "RARE WAS WAY BETTER ON THE N64" Here*)
-Leon (If you're going to say popular in japan: Prove it.)
-Vaati (Toon Zelda gets the nod either way but Vaati is looking like a Pipe Dream)

Other then that, I'm pretty fine with that. Props to including Isaac and Claus.

 

[Arcadenik]

I consider Ridley and Little Mac as good picks. Anyone else is slightly to much less likely than that in my eyes.

That is cool and all but why Ridley? I can understand Little Mac, what with his revival and all but Ridley? I don't see it. I don't see him as the main antagonist of the series. He is just a recurring boss character who worked under the main villain-of-the-game. And I am going to bring it up again... he is too big compared to Samus. Well, you have to admit it. He is BIG. At least Bowser's huge size can easily be explained away canonically by Kamek's magic (YIDS, NSMBWii), Vibe Scepter's magic (SPP), or even Bowser's own body functions (M&L:BIS). Not only that, but Bowser's size even changes not only from game to game but even within the same game. For example, people love to say Bowser was huge in Sunshine but they often forget that Bowser was suddenly normal size at the very ending where he told Bowser Jr. the truth about"Mama Peach". Bowser even went back to normal size at the very end in Galaxy after Mario beat the giant Bowser once again (which means we have to assume he was big due to the powers of the Grand Stars). Ridley keeps growing bigger and bigger from one game to the next and now he is too big he can hold Samus's whole body with just two hands in Other M (just like how Ridley held Samus's whole body with only one hand in Brawl). I think Sakurai handled Ridley (and Meta-Ridley) very well in Brawl.

 

[xxmoosexx]

No;

Clones
Ridiculous chain grabs
Fixed character range....*points at MK outranging Marth and most of Ike* i mean he has NO arms and his sword isnt as long as Marth's...its physically impossible

Combo's are back
No outsiders
No more Sonic maybe Sonic chars but otherwise no more sonic

 

[MasterLucario69]

If Captain Olimar, who is canonically the size of a nickel, can be made larger, then Ridley can easily be made smaller.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

That is cool and all but why Ridley? I can understand Little Mac, what with his revival and all but Ridley? I don't see it. I don't see him as the main antagonist of the series. He is just a recurring boss character who worked under the main villain-of-the-game. And I am going to bring it up again... he is too big compared to Samus. Well, you have to admit it. He is BIG. At least Bowser's huge size can easily be explained away canonically by Kamek's magic (YIDS, NSMBWii), Vibe Scepter's magic (SPP), or even Bowser's own body functions (M&L:BIS). Not only that, but Bowser's size even changes not only from game to game but even within the same game. For example, people love to say Bowser was huge in Sunshine but they often forget that Bowser was suddenly normal size at the very ending where he told Bowser Jr. the truth about"Mama Peach". Bowser even went back to normal size at the very end in Galaxy after Mario beat the giant Bowser once again (which means we have to assume he was big due to the powers of the Grand Stars). Ridley keeps growing bigger and bigger from one game to the next and now he is too big he can hold Samus's whole body with just two hands in Other M (just like how Ridley held Samus's whole body with only one hand in Brawl). I think Sakurai handled Ridley (and Meta-Ridley) very well in Brawl.

Because when discussing supporting characters, Metroid is one of the bigger series now without one (Well, ZSS Kinda counts. Just wish she could be changed without L+R)

The real problem is not how big ridley is. It's obvious ridley can be resized; The problem comes down to how much of a hassle he would be to program.

 

[Arcadenik]

If Captain Olimar, who is canonically the size of a nickel, can be made larger, then Ridley can easily be made smaller.

We have Kirby who is supposedly 8 inches tall. We also have Meta Knight and King Dedede who are about the same size or slightly bigger than Kirby in the Kirby games. Both their sizes fit Kirby's size just fine. Kirby is not a Mario character so it does not matter if he looks the same size as Mario. Olimar is not a Mario character so it does not matter if he is around Mario's size in Smash even though he is the size of a quarter in the Pikmin games.

Now, we have Samus. She is probably 6 feet tall in the Metroid games. Ridley towers her by about a couple dozens of feet in the Metroid games. Ridley would look fine resized if he was standing next to other Nintendo characters but he would look out of place when he is standing next to Samus. His size has to compliment Samus's size.

Look at Petey Piranha. He is huge in Brawl. His size looks right when standing next to Mario just like in Sunshine. Even Porky's spider mech and the Porky statue looked bigger than Lucas in Mother 3 and it was the same way in Brawl on both counts. Rayquaza is one of the largest Pokemon and standing next to any Pokemon, it looks just right. Their sizes don't matter to other Nintendo characters, only to the characters from the same games.

If Pikmin 3 introduced us to a new important character who is the size of a human baby, that character wouldn't look right standing next to Olimar in Smash when resized down.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

When it comes to music, I've made a top 15 as to which ones I would like to see (no order):
1. Wario's Theme (Super Mario Land 2)
2. Boss Battle (Kirby 64)
3. Bowser Battle (Super Mario Galaxy)
4. Stonecarve City (Wario Land: Shake It!)
5. Mt. Lava Lava (Wario Land: Shake It!)
6. Crisis City (Sonic the Hedgehog 360/PS3)
7. Bowser Battle (Luigi's Mansion)
8. Primal Dialga Battle (Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Explorers of Darkness/Time/Sky)
9. Final Eggman (Sonic Adventure)
10. It Doesn't Matter (Sonic Adventure)
11. Onett Daytime (Mother 2/EarthBound)
12. Rumble Falls (Donkey Kong Jungle Beat) *Odd this it isn't in brawl, even though the stage itself is*
13. Main Theme (Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land)
14. Overworld Theme (Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks) *best I could find for now*
15. Phantom Ganon (Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker)

 

[Arcadenik]

Because when discussing supporting characters, Metroid is one of the bigger series now without one (Well, ZSS Kinda counts. Just wish she could be changed without L+R)

No offense but this kind of thinking is why I think some people want Ridley, Dark Samus, Sylux, whatever from the Metroid series for the sake of having two slots devoted to Metroid characters on the character select screen instead of one slot, even though that one slot have two characters in it. It is like wanting Zelda and Sheik to be separate characters so we can have five slots for Zelda characters or something like that.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

No offense but this kind of thinking is why I think some people want Ridley, Dark Samus, Sylux, whatever from the Metroid series for the sake of having two slots devoted to Metroid characters on the character select screen instead of one slot, even though that one slot have two characters in it. It is like wanting Zelda and Sheik to be separate characters so we can have five slots for Zelda characters or something like that.

But the thing is: Ridley is pretty viable to Metroid unlike Sylux/Dark Samus/etc.

The fact of the matter isn't really his size, and even from what Sakurai sounded like he was saying, It's more about programming him. Programming him will probably be a living nightmare.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

When it comes to Ridley and the "he's too big" arguement, I've thought about this for a while and have come to this conclusion: the reason Ridley is always huge is because he's always a threat. Let me use Bowser as an example of what I mean.

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Starting with the Super Nintendo, Bowser has been shown to either be huge compared to Mario, or barely. In Super Mario World Bowser was causing trouble on Yoshi's Island. He was also big compared to Mario as well. However, in Super Mario Kart, Bowser was only competing in the grand prix. Not only that, but he was not much bigger than Mario in that game.

Super Mario 64 had Bowser stealing the castle stars and trapping everyone inside behind the walls. Mario was barely bigger than his tail in that game. In Mario Kart 64, Mario Golf, and Mario Tennis, Bowser was around the same size as Donkey Kong. In Mario Party, Bowser was either stealing coins or stars from the players and guess what, even Donkey Kong was somewhat smaller than him.

Although it was his son that did the dirty work in Super Mario Sunshine, Bowser was still a threat when fighting him, hence why he was huge during the battle. When he was talking to his son in the ending, Bowser appeared smaller. He wasn't being a threat during that scene either. In the spinoffs, again, Bowser was only competing (Mario Power Tennis opening is one of the three exceptions, but even then in this one, he was just throwing Bob-ombs and shooting one Bullet Bill), and like before, he wasn't much bigger.

Once again, in Super Mario Galaxy, Bowser was causing trouble once more to not only the Mushroom Kingdom, but the entire universe as well. As you can guess, Bowser once more towers Mario. If the spinoffs AGAIN, Bowser was competing once more (Mario Super Sluggers is the second exception, but we only see Bowser when playing baseball). The last exception is Mario & Sonic at the Winter Games, but I haven't played that yet so I can't comment on that one.

Short version, when Bowser is being a threat, he is also big compared to Mario. When Bowser isn't being a threat, he isn't much bigger compared to Mario.

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If Ridley wasn't trying to be a threat (which is never, givin his behavior), odds are he may not be huge compared to Samus, but because he's always a threat, he's always big.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

The only argument I get from you is "I want the game to be slow so I can go in right away even though I have no idea what I'm doing." I wonder if you're the one being selfish here.

Yes, people, and that includes myself, like to start off slow, but you're acting as if that's the only thing you need. When I'm sparring, it doesn't make a difference to me how slow my opponent moves if I don't know what to do. With stuff like the Bayonetta tutorial, I'm shown what I have to do and what ways I can be defensive. Then I'm tossed into the game at its default speed and conditions, but I know what to expect and how to handle the situation.

Now, is it a bad idea to have this feature or to go into training mode? Unless people are that impatient, I don't see what's wrong with making the default setting a little faster.

By the way Toise, you did not answer my question from my earlier post: What would be TOO slow?

Okay, let me break this down to you:

First-timers need the game to be slow and simple. You admit this yourself.

Brawl has a very excellent speed for newcomers because it's not too fast. It makes for a great default setting.

You want the default (the DEFAULT, mind you) to be faster on the grounds of "newcomers can deal with it," even though Brawl is pretty perfect where it is for beginners.

Why tamper with it? With a speed switch, the default is irrelevant for anyone capable of using the options menu (which is everyone who already knows how to play the game).

The only reason I could possibly understand is if you somehow think Brawl's speed is insulting to these people (which would mean you lack the perspective that these people do in regards to understanding what's happening on screen).



And why do you guys still listen to Arcadenik? Here's a guy who lives in a world where Ridley isn't a very important Metroid character and the Duck Hunt Dog makes people happy.

Also shame on everyone for not noticing Ganon was scaled down in comparison to Link and DK was scaled UP in comparison to Diddy. It's like everyone only notices Bowser and Olimar and quarters and whatnot.

 

[Arcadenik]

That is a good explanation. I like it but Bowser was a threat even when small, most notably in the RPG games.

But the thing is: Ridley is pretty viable to Metroid unlike Sylux/Dark Samus/etc.

The fact of the matter isn't really his size, and even from what Sakurai sounded like he was saying, It's more about programming him. Programming him will probably be a living nightmare.

How is Ridley more viable than Dark Samus, Sylux, etc.? Just say Ridley is more important than them and I would agree but more viable? How?

And if programming Ridley would be a nightmare, why would the development team waste much time trying to make Ridley fit in Smash when they could have used that time for other popular characters who would not be a hassle to program into the game like Little Mac, Starfy, Isa from Sin & Punishment 2, the new protagonist from Golden Sun DS, or even Toad?

 

[Pieman0920]

That is cool and all but why Ridley? I can understand Little Mac, what with his revival and all but Ridley? I don't see it. I don't see him as the main antagonist of the series. He is just a recurring boss character who worked under the main villain-of-the-game. And I am going to bring it up again... he is too big compared to Samus. Well, you have to admit it. He is BIG. At least Bowser's huge size can easily be explained away canonically by Kamek's magic (YIDS, NSMBWii), Vibe Scepter's magic (SPP), or even Bowser's own body functions (M&L:BIS). Not only that, but Bowser's size even changes not only from game to game but even within the same game. For example, people love to say Bowser was huge in Sunshine but they often forget that Bowser was suddenly normal size at the very ending where he told Bowser Jr. the truth about"Mama Peach". Bowser even went back to normal size at the very end in Galaxy after Mario beat the giant Bowser once again (which means we have to assume he was big due to the powers of the Grand Stars). Ridley keeps growing bigger and bigger from one game to the next and now he is too big he can hold Samus's whole body with just two hands in Other M (just like how Ridley held Samus's whole body with only one hand in Brawl). I think Sakurai handled Ridley (and Meta-Ridley) very well in Brawl.

Eh? Why spark up a Ridley deabte of all things? Haven't you been over this? Haven't we all?

Ridley's the main antagonist overall, which is fairly unquestioned in the Metroid canon. He's the one who killed Samus' parents, and he's the technical leader of the Space Pirates. He's also the villain who shows up again and again to torment Samus. Heck, Bowser recently has been playing second fiddle to several villains as of late, yet he's certainly Mario's main antagonist.

Size isn't a issue in the slightest. Olimar is the size of a quarter. Kirby is 8 inches tall. Pikachu is like a foot tall while Charizard is like five feet. As Koopa said, its probably a bigger deal with programing him in there, but Sakurai said it would be possible, and given Charizard's inclusion, I'm inclined to believe that. Really, the size debate it worthless at this point.

Also shame on everyone for not noticing Ganon was scaled down in comparison to Link and DK was scaled UP in comparison to Diddy. It's like everyone only notices Bowser and Olimar and quarters and whatnot.

Well Bowser and Olimar are at the higher and lower ends of the scale. Personally I feel that Pokemon should be the bigger indicator that size has nothing to do with anything in Smash, since unlike the other series, all of the Pokemon have a established size.

 

[Arcadenik]

And why do you guys still listen to Arcadenik? Here's a guy who lives in a world where Ridley isn't a very important Metroid character and the Duck Hunt Dog makes people happy.

Also shame on everyone for not noticing Ganon was scaled down in comparison to Link and DK was scaled UP in comparison to Diddy. It's like everyone only notices Bowser and Olimar and quarters and whatnot.

Keeping up with the personal attacks, huh? Nice.

Ganondorf was scaled down and Donkey Kong was scaled up? I guess no one noticed it because it was not as extreme as you would like it to be.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

How is Ridley more viable than Dark Samus, Sylux, etc.? Just say Ridley is more important than them and I would agree but more viable? How?

And if programming Ridley would be a nightmare, why would the development team waste much time trying to make Ridley fit in Smash when they could have used that time for other popular characters who would not be a hassle to program into the game like Little Mac, Starfy, Isa from Sin & Punishment 2, the new protagonist from Golden Sun DS, or even Toad?

Don't know about Metroid that well, but Sylux/etc have the whole "Nobody really has priority over any of them" Isa and the GS DS Protaginist aren't even popular yet but going on...

Because Ridley has a ridiculous amount of fan request and is one of the series that's clearly turning more important to Nintendo? That, and he's for sure important as I keep hearing.

edit: I meant to say "Not popular" Over "Exist" Whoops.

 

[majora_787]

...Another Ridley argument? Really, guys? That was the last thing you did when I stopped reading this thread... Please tell me you talked about something ELSE and it isn't the same argument...

 

[Pieman0920]

We actually haven't brought up Ridley in a long time. Arcadenik just brought up for some reason. =/

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Keeping up with the personal attacks, huh? Nice.

Ganondorf was scaled down and Donkey Kong was scaled up? I guess no one noticed it because it was not as extreme as you would like it to be.

It doesn't matter if it's extreme or not, just the fact that he changed them is what matters. TP Ganon was almost twice as tall as TP Link, but in Brawl it's more like 4:3. DK and Diddy are normally about the same height when DK's hunched over, but in Brawl DK's at least a head above Diddy.

Ridley will still be bigger than Samus and he'll still dwarf most of the cast, I don't see what the problem is.


And if criticism of crappy ideas and theories counts as personal attacks, then I guess I've earned the title of "SSB4 Thread Douchebag." Oh well.