Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[infiniteV115]

Not to mention that you're very inexperienced because (iirc) you said that you only play on Wifi, and then also once a week with this one friend of yours. It takes tons of experience to get anywhere close to as good as Calzorz.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Joe, I don't think Semifer has even played Calzorz at all <_<

 

[Seagull Joe]

Joe, I don't think Semifer has even played Calzorz at all <_<

I thought I saw a vid of him losing to a on youtube before he "quit". Which was that? I'll check youtube.

I was thinking of Tay.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It was TaY

 

[Seagull Joe]

How good is Tay compared to Calzorz?

 

[Calzorz]

Not to mention that you're very inexperienced because (iirc) you said that you only play on Wifi, and then also once a week with this one friend of yours. It takes tons of experience to get anywhere close to as good as Calzorz.

appreiciate tht comment haha ,

well im the only snake to really beat players like mr r and staco etc so i guess there is a gap between me and any other european snakes

 

[zmx]

Mr. R seems to have a pretty good snake as well.

Edit:

Infinite, it is possible to gain a ton of experience through wifi. Though like I've said, this is only if you setup matches with players that actually know what they're doing and he's probably never faced such a Snake. Obviously the lol basic brawl won't help you much.

 

[infiniteV115]

Fair enough.

Dude, you're in my region. You should know better than to call me 'Infinite'

 

[zmx]

Fair enough.

Dude, you're in my region. You should know better than to call me 'Infinite'

I've spoken to you many times on here now and I'm pretty sure that's what I've always called you without you objecting. You prefer to be called V115 then?

Btw I think infinite sounds cooler than V115. But to each their own.

 

[hichez50]

^^^^
ture.

 

[DarkISDA]

I'd like to see a marth vs olimar match-up writing, this match-up is by far my worst and I really don't know what to do in it. (as a marth main).

 

[Fuujin]

ISDA you're just bad.

 

[DarkISDA]

I thought we could ask for a match-up writing, since it was mentionned in the first post, and I never got a good answer in the marth boards in the past, so I'm not willing to ask again.

 

[zyth]

is there a write up for DK vs. ICs?

 

[MechaWave]

Doc King still isn't banned yet. Wtf is this?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Things I think should be changed:

MK: vs Marth to +2, vs Pikachu to +1, vs Olimar and Fox to 0
IC: vs Diddy to +1, vs DDD to +2, vs ZSS to 0
Marth: vs Olimar, Snake, Falco, Kirby, Fox and Sonic to 0, vs MK and DDD to -2, vs DK to +1

 

[Cassio]

I think the current MK MUs are probably fine with brinstar and RC legal. Thats sort of the caveat with Apex results. Without them Id say even ICs could be argued even.

That also seems a bit harsh for Marth, lol. At least fox...marth seems to do well vs fox.

 

[Flayl]

Why would Marth VS DK be +1?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Things I think should be changed:

MK: vs Marth to +2, vs Pikachu to +1, vs Olimar and Fox to 0
IC: vs Diddy to +1, vs DDD to +2, vs ZSS to 0
Marth: vs Olimar, Snake, Falco, Kirby, Fox and Sonic to 0, vs MK and DDD to -2, vs DK to +1

Diddy doesn't do bad against ICs. He can separate them very easily and his spike is actually useful against nana

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah and losing your stock when getting hit by a banana thrown by IC helps a lot too.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

ICs don't really have a glide toss so you have to be pretty bad in order to get grabbed after a banana toss

 

[Player-1]

right cuz getting tech cased successfully once automatically makes you bad.

 

[infiniteV115]

Things I think should be changed:

MK: vs Marth to +2, vs Pikachu to +1, vs Olimar and Fox to 0
IC: vs Diddy to +1, vs DDD to +2, vs ZSS to 0
Marth: vs Olimar, Snake, Falco, Kirby, Fox and Sonic to 0, vs MK and DDD to -2, vs DK to +1

I think you're the first person I've ever known to say that ZSS:ICs should be even. Or, to be even more specific, first to say that it isn't in ZSS' favour. Why do you think this?

 

[Lord Chair]

Yeah and losing your stock nana when getting hit by a banana thrown by IC Diddy helps a lot too.

You're absolutely right.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think you're the first person I've ever known to say that ZSS:ICs should be even. Or, to be even more specific, first to say that it isn't in ZSS' favour. Why do you think this?

There is no reason to assume ZSS wins.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

right cuz getting tech cased successfully once automatically makes you bad.

I don't get how we can't assume that a player isn't going to make all the right decisions out of a banana slip, yet ICs are never going to drop a grab. If we aren't, then a grab isn't always going to = automatic death.

 

[Neon!]

I agree with snake vs pika being -2 snake after seeing razer vs esam.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

@_@ It's not like that's the first time I've bodied a Snake.

Also, ZSS > ICs
ICs > Diddy
ICs > ICs
ICs < Olimar's fair

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

Lucario -1 vs. D3

I can't john after losing this matchup anymore...but I no longer have to worry about training my pocket Pikachu, either

Also yay for (technically) no longer having anything worse than a -1. And still moving down like 4 places, lol.

 

[san.]

My feelings on Ike's MUs:

I feel that these -1s are 0:

: Ike can play pretty safe with smart use of nair and jab. Pika has a tough time killing Ike. I feel the CG helps bring the MU from Ike's favor to even if it's pulled off in a match. Pikachu is also a character that can be jab utilted.



This just feels even overall. Unlike other Ike MUs where each character has chances to mess the other up pretty badly, I feel that with wolf neither character can do anything extremely bad against the other. Bair is tough but it can be powershield jabbed. Wolf is easy to jab but that's offset by his weight.



Ike can play keepaway with nair, jab, and pivot grabs pretty easily and bring in a lot of damage. This is offset by how easy it is to get a fart on Ike, which drastically increases Wario's damage potential on him. Ike can bthrow->dash attack on wario anyways so Ike can still fight wario on stages with platforms just fine. Grab release to utilt/ftilt depending on the situation.



ROB's tilts, gyro, and lasers help ROB control the ground. Regular B reversals and gyro reversals help ROB's movement in the air, but it's difficult to actually confront Ike with attacks in the air. ROB has trouble landing some kill moves since they're all outranged. I feel ROB has trouble camping the ledge against Ike since Ike can reach pretty far down and outrange rising aerials. I feel that ROB is not very hard to spike, but ROB usually survives it anyways. ROB's weight helps but it feels like he has a lot of trouble dying off the side.



Ike can punish ICs incredibly hard for many single things. Ike can outrange blizzard wall and has easy kill setups on nana. Due to IC's traction, Spaced aerials and movement can keep ICs away. ICs can definitely lay pressure and ICs can intercept Ike on whiffed aerials.



I feel that these -1s MIGHT be 0:

: Trying to understand how easy it is to properly space against kirby, and how easy it is to grab Ike. At times I feel it can be pretty hard for kirby.

: MU not played enough. It seems difficult for pit to plank since Ike's aerials dig underneath the platform. Up close seems pretty even to me.

: I'm unsure how much upB disrupts Ike in the MU, and how easily GW can punish with smash attacks (especially after a power shield). I feel it's not that hard at all, but I feel I do not know enough to say.

: feels pretty even to me. Marth has easier punishes out of shield and offstage. Ike has easier punishes through outranging. Marth's punishes are better at low %. Ike's punishes are better at mid-high %. Ike can aim aether at a certain spot near the ledge to interrupt most dolphin slashes to the ledge to gimp Ike. Marth is one of the tougher taller characters to jab cancel, too.



advantages:

is imo +1 Ike. She can get jabbed and hit pretty easily. Samus can combo him, but she can't really kill him. Samus is also more of an aerial character which is easier for Ike to handle.

I feel :jiggs: is +1 Ike, but it will take very good spacing and some MU knowledge in order to shut down jigglypuff like I know he can. Jigglypuff can punish Ike heavily at times, but jigglypuff runs the risk for death at like 70-80.

is at least +1 for Ike. jabs, aerials, aether, and offstage shenanigans are just too much for Mario to want to mess with. Mario has some solid strings though and can kill pretty reliably on Ike after 150. Mario's offstage shenanigans can usually be avoided but they are still somewhat of a threat and I can see a high level Mario pulling one off in 3 games.


MUs that might improve later on:

People used to say that DDD can gimp Ike easily. I feel that nowadays it's a pretty tough challenge to finally get that bair wall setup properly. On the other hand, offstage is becoming a very dangerous place for DDDs.


MUs that might be worse:

and may be able to match the damage and other nasty stuff we deal to them due to their camping abilities (namely PK thunder harassment). I could see these going closer to 0.

I feel is only a +1 from what I experience. Luigi can bring in a lot of damage and kill early. Luigi's jab is 1 frame faster, and if luigi gets a jab in he can dsmash for more damage.

I have never really played against a PT before so I am also curious why that is +2.

 

[Ussi]

if only you weren't busy with classes during the panel :|

also @Marth/Ike being even: *insert hilter version 2 video*

 

[san.]

Yeah, MIGHT be 0 means that I am fine with it being -1 but I could understand arguments for 0 and could be swayed to that.

 

[-LzR-]

You're absolutely right.

That is also true, but the risk/reward is for IC here.

@Jebus: You don't need a glidetoss to get followups out of bananas wtf?

 

[Shaya]

Ike is a man and brother in arms.
Being even with a bro is all bro enough for me.
Pikachu is/are **** though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's weird, almost all of the Wolf players argued that Ike / Wolf should be even on our panel - it were the Ike players that didn't care about changing the match-up so a discussion never happened.

 

[Cassio]

We are the pikachus that stole christmas 3:]

San I think the bigger thing that came up pika vs Ike was edgeguarding and Ike on the ledge. I agree with your summary though. Pika has about 6 or 7 MUs that are evenish that are determined his slight advantage based on better cgs, strings, juggling, and/or edge/ledgeguarding. I wouldnt have minded even, but there was surprisingly strong unanimity for +1/-1 on both sides.

 

[phi1ny3]

That is also true, but the risk/reward is for IC here.

@Jebus: You don't need a glidetoss to get followups out of bananas wtf?

no kidding, sheik and snake, when they have a banana still get plenty of options (more sheik, snake gets either ftilt/utilt/grab at close range, DA/DACUS from far away), and neither of them have an official glidetoss (although you could substitute with jump-cancel tossing)

Ike is a man and brother in arms.
Being even with a bro is all bro enough for me.
Pikachu is/are **** though.

hear hear on that last bit lol

 

[Marc]

The chart was updated to an image file (thanks Slhoka!). All mistakes/inconsistencies that were pointed out to me were fixed. Expect more writeups in a week or so, as we can get back on quality checks with APEX behind us. I haven't been able to read all of the topic, so if something is particularly urgent you can PM me.

 

[MegaRobMan]

It's weird, almost all of the Wolf players argued that Ike / Wolf should be even on our panel - it were the Ike players that didn't care about changing the match-up so a discussion never happened.

Yeah, Wolf Ike is pretty even. I guess it could be +1 Wolf on big stages, but it's +1 at worst, Even at best.

 

[PMC66]

haha i live in scunthorpe man its near sheffield / doncaster

Sheffield I live in Warrington that's not a massive distance away lol maybe we can meet some time?

and @Seagull I know gimping with Wolf's blaster is unlikely, the main scenario i tried to give was a risky read scenario of snake aproaching wolf Wolf's blaster can out prioritise snakes tilts i wouldn't use this particularly often but when i'm uncomfortable rolling away and when he's right inside me then maybe i'd try a close range blaster shot on him on low percent on high i'd never consider doing it 50% chance of death for very little pay off if snake is as high as i am no thank you.

Mario V those characters i said 'evenish' I know Mario looses to everyone in the game do you think I use Wolf because I like using him? well yeah i do but given the option if Mario was as broken as Meta Knight i'd pull an M2K and just main him sod secondaries if SSB4 has a broken Mario then i'll be happy.

btw Gheb i think Ike V Wolf is even also I love that MU same goes for DK