Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[Ing.]

dude you make my post look like ****. Information is way different. i'v red all your and i quite disagree with some parts. but most of it is true and i have not implyd in my post.

To me everybody plays different and dont play as alwayz described, even with me.
but i can ensure that most people may play as u have described. thou also comming back to people dont playing the same, i havnt come across any falco users who play with such a wide range or techniques

Not Disrespect.

 

[Mith_]

Pros: Easy to gimp (tether > phantasm). If the Falco knows that then he won't aim for the ledge, so mix up your gimp game. Down+B means ZSS can't be Chaingrabbed.
Cons: Reflector can own your armor.
Final Verdict: I think it is a 5-5 even matchup.
Matchup Advice: Mindgames and don't get predictable.
On the ground:

At long range: Watch out for lasers lol.

At medium range: Over B

At close range: Jabs & Tilts


In the air: I think ZSS aerials are better than falco's.



Off the edge: ZSS is better than Falco.


Counterpick Advice:
Stages to Counter-pick: Norfair, Brinstar, Frigate (lol metroid stages)
Stages to Avoid: Jungle Japes, although your tether may be good here. Final Destination.
Falco Contributors:

 

[Bouse]

dude you make my post look like ****. Information is way different. i'v red all your and i quite disagree with some parts. but most of it is true and i have not implyd in my post.

To me everybody plays different and dont play as alwayz described, even with me.
but i can ensure that most people may play as u have described. thou also comming back to people dont playing the same, i havnt come across any falco users who play with such a wide range or techniques

Not Disrespect.

...ow.

10grammarnazis

 

[Charby]

A nice Trick against Falco is to side b when you are holding an armor part, he 'll usally down b reflex when approaching.
Throw away 2 parts and approach holding one

 

[Mith_]

Run close to him and toss it down.

 

[Ing.]

Or even better. you could just throw the armor off the stage at the start of the game. thats what i usually do

 

[Bouse]

The best way to fight Falco players, I find, is to set down your controller and punch them right in the ****. The match gets a lot easier from that point out.

But seriously, it's all about powershielding the lasers, watching out for his broken dash and DAC, and learning to use Down+B when he Dthrows you.

Falco's aerial game (excluding SHDL, which are really only annoying... not frightening) used to really frighten me, but when you know where the hitboxes are and how fast the moves can come out it shouldn't even be a challenge to compete with him in the air.

His ground game is probably one of the most annoying things in the game. His SHINE kick is annoying spacing, and his Dsmash is pretty fast.

I've been playing Link for the last couple of months so I might be off base by a little bit, but Falco is 10x harder for Link than Zero Suit... trust me on that. That being said it's possible for Links to kill Falcos, so ZSS shouldn't have that much harder of a time.

ZSS:Falco
35:65
Hard, but manageable.

Edit: Oh and armor piece mindgames can ruin a Falco player in the first stock if you use them properly. Learning to juggle the way Snakeee does all the time will save you tons of grief. Glide Toss Down/Up->Sidestep->Dsmash is a fairly common example. He thinks you're going to be tossing it at him, he tries to reflect. You sidestep the SHINE and Dsmash him. Think of your own but remember that just because an armor piece is in your hand doesn't mean you have to throw it at them.

Falco's phantasm is probably the best form of recovery he has, learn the timings and so on and so forth.

If he ever Up+B's and you're further off the stage than him, just tether and don't retract. It's my favorite way to KO Falco players.

 

[8AngeL8]

If the Falco player can space this matchup properly, it's his advantage. He obviously wins at long range, and at medium range the reflector and SHL can keep her at bay. Close up, Falco's ftilt, jab combo, and dash attack have the range to space her.

ZSS's attacks that outrange Falco's ftilt and jab combo are slow enough to be spot-dodged, too.

Falco can't properly chain-grab her though. He can get two throws by doing Dthrow->FFdair -> Dthrow -> ffdair. ZSS also has really good combos on Falco because of his fast fall speed. She can gimp him fairly easily, too.

Overall, I'd say 65:35 Falco's favor.

 

[PSI Locke22]

samus insnt prettier than tear from tales of the abyss. PT is the best.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Well, you guys have pretty much nailed out most of this matchup. Definitely use glide-tossing to your advantage; up/down throws of an armor piece can really throw a Falco player off, especially since his reflector has a much harder time controlling those. Another useful hint (which will work against Fox players as well,) is that if you can manage to nail a recovering Falco using Phantasm with a baby paralyzer shot, most likely they'll start jamming forward-b in order to recover. However, if they're close enough to being in line with the stage, they'll end up falling below the ledge when they do manage to get out of the stun, and will Phantasm to death.

samus insnt prettier than tear from tales of the abyss. PT is the best.

Reported.

 

[Ing.]

If armor is thrown Up/Down, doesnt fox's Reflector allow the throw item to bcom hes?

 

[DeliciousCake]

Yes, it does.

 

[NeoZero]

Yes, but it's completely impractical in just about every context since it leaves him wide open. The only time it would be useful would be if he whacks Zss away and then does it. Even then, he could just wait a few seconds and pick it up once it bounces, or he could catch it in the air if he's feeling like a show off.

This should apply to wolf too. Although I still dont know why they would do it.

 

[FadedImage]

Yes, but it's completely impractical in just about every context since it leaves him wide open.

Well, Falco can reflect the suitpiece while it's bouncing, I'm pretty sure it won't change its momentum, just who has possession. Also, it actually doesn't leave them open, because you can jump cancel the shine when you reflect something (at least Fox can, dunno bout Wolf). So technically he shouldn't have any lag (just most Fox players don't run into a situation where they need to jump cancel a shine very often).

Another useful hint (which will work against Fox players as well,) is that if you can manage to nail a recovering Falco using Phantasm with a baby paralyzer shot, most likely they'll start jamming forward-b in order to recover. However, if they're close enough to being in line with the stage, they'll end up falling below the ledge when they do manage to get out of the stun, and will Phantasm to death.

That sounds like a really good edgeguard, fire out a neutral-b to scare them from phantasming, and then tether the ledge... must try...

EDIT:
So does everyone agree, 3:7, Falco is a hard counter to ZSS?

posttesting edit:

I got a friend to play Falco with me and we tested out a couple things:
I wasn't able to escape the walking chaingrab until I left the dthrow at 31%, and then I escaped by spamming down-b.
Phantasm: neutral-b stun shots will stun if they hit Falco directly, if they are slightly over or under the phantasm they will clank/get overridden. Also, when I stunned him over the edge, he recovered rather quickly out of the stun and was able to phantasm without a loss of height.
When I used the B-Air tactic, I had mixed results. It seemed my best method wasn't trying to predict the phantasm and interrupting it, it was just tracking Falco himself and hitting him in the startup lag of phantasm.
If you can train the Falco to recover high after chasing him out for a couple times, I suggest predicting with d-smashes, they seem to work well.
As for hogging his recovery, neither options have a hitbox long enough to warrant a tetherhog. They should both be regular edgehogged (with invinc frames).

 

[Ing.]

falco is not really @ a disadvantage wen deflecting a up/down throw suit piece due to that by the time he reaches the fround most of the time he is already recovered. and if u try to run in on him hes shield would just it you if i am currently correct.

 

[NeoZero]

Well, Falco can reflect the suitpiece while it's bouncing, I'm pretty sure it won't change its momentum, just who has possession. Also, it actually doesn't leave them open, because you can jump cancel the shine when you reflect something (at least Fox can, dunno bout Wolf). So technically he shouldn't have any lag (just most Fox players don't run into a situation where they need to jump cancel a shine very often).

Stuff.

falco is not really @ a disadvantage wen deflecting a up/down throw suit piece due to that by the time he reaches the fround most of the time he is already recovered. and if u try to run in on him hes shield would just it you if i am currently correct.

I know this, thus explaining why I never bothered to mention Falco. If you do look back, Ing, you mentionned fox, and not falco, so I was addressing him.

Now, this is my reasoning:

If a suit piece is bouncing downwards, it basicly means it's a hitbox the size of a person. The only way a fox could use his reflector to gain possession is by jumping over it and then using it. He cant go under it (maybe on the first bounce if thrown downwards) since it while just whack him back before he's in a position to use his reflector. We can also hit him with whatever attack we want if he's trying to reflect it. If he does reflect it, congratz, but you still have us with maybe another piece to hassle you with or just side>B

If the suit piece is in the air, I don't realistically see a Fox player just waiting under it in his shine. Just way too impractical. If he jumps under it and then reflects it while coming down, then sure, thats viable. If he jumps cancels out of his shine, all thats really ganna happen is that the suitpiece is still in the air, only under his control.

But the real point im trying to make is that it just takes much effort for so little results. While he's setting himself up to do one little trick that probably wont do anything for him, we can just pressure him with our side-B or aerials. If he really wants results, he would catch the suit piece in the air while its falling (Thrown upwards), or just defend the bouncing suit piece and pick it up when it's done bouncing.

It's just too big a risk for so little results. It's just not practical for a fox player, IMHO, to use his reflector to gain possession of a flying suit piece

Edit: clearified first phrase; was refering to FALCO.

 

[Ing.]

But the real point im trying to make is that it just takes much effort for so little results.

Dude. anything that happends to manipulate the enemys % is never a little result. as i alwayz say "every % counts, no matter how little it is". so to me pulling that off just to get in acouple of %'s is a big deal and may even look complicated and shoking to the other players.

But also good points

 

[NeoZero]

@Faded: Yes, I do agree with it being 3:7, with falco being a hard counter.

@Boards: Do we invite the Falco's over and see what they think?

 

[FadedImage]

@Boards: Do we invite the Falco's over and see what they think?

Took care of it already. If there aren't any objections by tonight, we'll get Falco finalized and then move on to the next char.
Any votes?

I say Lucario.

EDIT: for Falco, add any stage counterpicks that no one has covered yet.

 

[NeoZero]

I vote D3.

 

[Taalcon]

Ness, he's surprisingly good, no lag air moves, annoying fair, strong bair, and his back-throw is a ***** and kills at 130% from the far side of FD with DI.

 

[cba]

Olimar is a biatch, but ZSS > G&W, i think we should do top-high tiers first.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

i wanna do wario. like i wanna see if ppl have another strategies to fight him other then dodge his aerials and grab release into dsmash etc.

 

[Yankee]

I vote lucario, although i would really like to vote meta.

 

[cba]

G&W, although i think ZSS has a 60-40 or 55-45 ADVANTAGE

 

[Charby]

Snake!! utilt FTL

 

[NeoZero]

I'm thinking your joking. Also, what does FTL mean?

Reason for Edit: Typos like there was no tomorrow!

 

[Yankee]

I'm thinking you joking. Also, what does FTL mean?

It means for the loss. And i'm thinking poor use of sarcasm or he didn't see the first post.

 

[NeoZero]

Never heard that one before. Thanks for da info, it's really appreciated.

 

[Charby]

Seriously Snake can kill you on any neutral stage at 90% except FD with an UTilt so...

 

[cba]

i think PIT is her worse matcup after Falco.

 

[FadedImage]

Seriously Snake can kill you on any neutral stage at 90% except FD with an UTilt so...

lol charby, check OP, Snake was the first char we did. If we can't get some sort of consensus we're gonna hafta just /roll randomize it, lol.

 

[NeoZero]

Fine then, I'm changing my vote to Game and Watch.

 

[Ing.]

ill vote for Game and watch

 

[cba]

Fine then, I'm changing my vote to Game and Watch.

ill vote for Game and watch

yes, yes, say and do as me.

 

[Charby]

If you think GW's turtle is annoying put 1

 

[James Sparrow]

Probably not as annoying as zss's side b is to G&W

 

[cba]

If you think GW's turtle is annoying put 1

when Spammed as if it was the only move he had, 1.

Probably not as annoying as zss's side b is to G&W

Exactly, i know people(G&W) that ZSS pisses them off, i mean, G&W cannot absorb her Suit and for me, that is a +. Not to mention her Plasma whip.

 

[Nibbles 2]

i wanna do wario.

Very nice.

 

[TheRockSays]

i think zss worst match ups are Game and watch 2nd with his annoying turtle shell is pretty much self explanatory. 3rd Falco to much prio. 4th Sonic He moves to fast for most of zss moves. I don't have a 5th at the moment but Bum163's ike Caught me of guard He two stocked me With my main, i used kirby dropped him 2 1 life i believe he was using peach,and then i played luigi against his mario dropped him to 1 life Then again Bum is the best NY i did what i could.

Number 1 obviously goes to MK. Snake is probably 6th.