Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[FadedImage]

1- They only get 2 un-exploded grenades on the field at one time, so that somewhat limits their powers.

2- Aerials? Tilts? Side-B isn't really even a "rack up damage" move.

I was making fun of Rock's lack of depth and generalizations about the matchup.

As for doing damage with Side-B, yes, it should be used to rack up lots of damage. First, it's ZSS's highest damage single hit move, second, it gets Snake in the air, which should result in more damage.

You aren't going to be shorthopping aerials at Snake, unless you want to get faceraped by f-tilt, you also shouldn't be in range to perform any of your tilts, since he probably already did his first. True, tilts can be handy to try and get a breather, but hardly ever will you rack up serious damage with them.

lol @ cake, thanks for taking the time to address each step, I was thinking about doing it, but decided against it, lol.


So, how does everyone feel about this matchup?
4:6 ZSS:Snake
Snake is a soft counter for ZSS?

Any additional input for how to deal with the matchup? Any more pros and cons?

OHHH, we should talk about counterpick stages toooo.

Pokemon Stadium 1 - I like this stage for ZSS in general, and it holds true in this matchup as well. Stage transformations mean no super boostsmashing everywhere. Short walls mean quicker KOs on a super heavy character. However, it does backlash because it also has a slightly lower ceiling.

Jungle Japes - Just because the ceiling is so **** high. It's not the best ZSS stage, but it could be considered a bad Snake stage, since it will help us survive for a lot longer. The side platforms should also alleviate some of the boostsmash pressure, as well as grenade pressure.

Brinstar - The messed up base makes it tough for Snake to boostsmash, plus, when the lava start coming up he's forced into the air, which is where we want him. The height of the top platform allows you to get high up there and go for u-air KOs close to the ceiling.

Norfair - same as Brinstar, except with the bonus of cutting Snake's ledge camping game. If it's legal...

Rainbow Cruise - just like Japes, it's not the best ZSS stage, but it's a bad Snake stage, keeps him in the air, doesn't let him use c4 shenanigans and such.

Stay away from: Final D (camp-city), Battlefield (too much stage control) and Halberd (low ceiling)​

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Alright now can we come to some kind of agreement on the statistics of the matchup?

In my opinion its somewhere between 50-50 and 60-40, probably 55-45 in snakes favor IMO but what does everybody else think?

 

[FadedImage]

Alright now can we come to some kind of agreement on the statistics of the matchup?

In my opinion its somewhere between 50-50 and 60-40, probably 55-45 in snakes favor IMO but what does everybody else think?

I think we should just stick to base 10 matchups. 55-45 is splitting hairs.

I'd go with 4:6 Snake's advantage.

 

[M.K]

I'd say 55:45 in Snake's favor.
60:40 is too much IMO.

 

[DeliciousCake]

60:40 Snake. I play various good Snakes on a regular basis, and I can say it is normally an aggravating matchup. Also, Jungle Japes is a great stage against Snake, as well as spacies.

 

[bludhoundz]

42.5-57.5

Seriously though I think it is a slight advantage for Snake. Take that as you will - a 10 or 20 point difference. I honestly believe 55:45 and 40:60 are both pretty accurate representations of this matchup.

Faded - IRT your stage discussion

Snake will ban RC immediately. If he doesn't, choose it. An awful Snake stage.

Brinstar is actually a good Snake stage. Also it's hard to see the C4 and grenades on this map. Could work, though, I don't have enough experience to really say.

Norfair is good. Japes sounds good, too. Lots of room to avoid him.

Stay away from small stages like Corneria. Utilt will kill you ridiculously low here.

 

[FadedImage]

Brinstar is actually a good Snake stage. Also it's hard to see the C4 and grenades on this map. Could work, though, I don't have enough experience to really say.

True, it's small size allows him to stage control pretty well, so it's sort of a double-edged sword. Relying on the lava might be a bit much to call it a good counter-pick.

Stay away from small stages like Corneria. Utilt will kill you ridiculously low here.

I still don't think that stage should be legal... it's so ****ty. The only advantage here is that you don't have to worry about nade camping as much, since it's so expansive and curved. However, you have to worry about fin camping, which is 10x worse, lol.

 

[TheRockSays]

I'm very pissed, I wrote out a long explanation against all of this and my browser crashed posting it. My responses will likely be much angrier now.

This is so blatantly obvious to do against any character that it should not be considered in almost any matchup.


Getting her opponent in the air is ZSS' general strategy. This doesn't have any effect of the matchup either.


I am going to punch you with the fist of an angry god. "double down smash, up b" IS NOT A COMBO/CHAIN/SANDWICH WHATEVER THE **** YOU WANT TO CALL IT. IT WILL BE DI'ED BY ANYONE WHO IS NOT A MORON.


Any Snake player will do one of the two in this situation: 1. Have another grenade already cooked, or 2. Shield grab you because you're an idiot.


Snake is one of the fastest heavy characters. Mortar-sliding and his dash attack allow him to cover large areas with little retaliation. And don't give me that "paralyzer shots stop him" bull****, you can't react that fast. Stop trying to pretend you're a super human. The only time it's going to stop him is if he's trying to hit you with a mortar-slide from halfway across FD or if you're already charging one beforehand.


So what you're saying is that charging a Snake with a cooked grenade is your best option? He is not going to shield-drop it if you're charging him, he's going to roll-drop backwards so you're standing on the grenade. If you do manage to grab him you're still standing on the grenade. Yes, that's bad, no matter how you look at it. If he doesn't drop it and you go for the grab, you're equally ****ed. Playing a guessing game is not a strategy, it's a guessing game.


Final Destination only makes it easier for Snake to camp and play defensively. Just because it's your "favorite stage" does not make it the best counterpick.


I'm assuming these Snake players are quadriplegics and amputees.


B-air is much more effective in KO'ing Snake, ESPECIALLY if he's recovering. He's a big fat target on his Cypher, why would you not go with your best option? Try using your own brain before telling others to turn on theirs.


Nobody is ******** enough to fall in a perfectly straight line above you.


Snake does not need to crawl, he outranges you. You are forced to approach him. Snake's d-tilt is faster than your d-smash anyways.


You and every other ZSS main. Stop trying to act like you're the only smart one.

Oh, and take the time to respond to people individually. Basically you're showing to us that you don't really care about this argument when you blow people off.

Deliciouscake the difference between you and me is that you spam side b 1 on 1 against snake and thats not the way to go. I'm not giving you freaking attitude so calm the f down.
I said Some ZSS players do i have to go that video for VT power rankings seeing you use Front smash and spamming side b against snake you are the first example.

I learned ZSS by watching Absolute Zero by Claw and i learned somethings and i still lost so i made my own style of fighting with ZSS and it works If you guys want. The only reasons i dont put up videos is cause im not fortunate enough to afford a dam Camera I got my wifi usb Connector working Find Me a pro Snake player with internet and someone that can record so i can prove my point. Because its hard to explain by typing it all down.

i would like to get this done in atleast done by 8pm

 

[ph00tbag]

Japes sounds good, too. Lots of room to avoid him.

All Snake needs to do here, though, is gain a stock advantage, then camp on a side platform, which decimates ZSS's Plasma Whip approach, and forces her to go with Paralyzer or aerials. Japes is easily ZSS's worst stage.

 

[NeoZero]

*hides... someplace FAAARRRRR away where I won't die from the shockwave that will undoubtedly emminate from Rock having posted that*

 

[TheRockSays]

*hides... someplace FAAARRRRR away where I won't die from the shockwave that will undoubtedly emminate from Rock having posted that*

Obviously i can't get no support im on the ZSS side jesus i always want zss to win.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Deliciouscake the difference between you and me is that you spam side b 1 on 1 against snake and thats not the way to go. I'm not giving you freaking attitude so calm the f down.
I said Some ZSS players do i have to go that video for VT power rankings seeing you use Front smash and spamming side b against snake you are the first example. I learned ZSS by watching Absolute Zero by Claw and i learned somethings and i still lost so i made my own style of fighting with ZSS and it works If you guys want.

So basically you're going to take a few bad videos of me and compare that to a compilation video that only shows good footage? You're low. Stupid and low. All you're doing is ******** and moaning because most of us don't agree with you. If you think you're right, prove it.

Oh and learn how to type. I don't think The Rock would want a ****** endorsing him.

 

[NeoZero]

Well, It's just that your the method your proposing is... different from what the vast majority of us play. And more then likely, until you have something to show us your supposed "skill" at point blank range, chances are everyone going to refute what you say. Now if you placed well in a major tournament using unorthodox manners and actually have any evidence to prove it, then chances are people would take you more seriously.

All I meant by my previous post is that your probably going to get some... hate filled comments coming your way. Most of them calling out on your "playstyle".

Edit: It has begun!!!

*Finds a more suitable place to hide*

 

[TheRockSays]

So basically you're going to take a few bad videos of me and compare that to a compilation video that only shows good footage? You're low. Stupid and low. All you're doing is ******** and moaning because most of us don't agree with you. If you think you're right, prove it.

Oh and learn how to type. I don't think The Rock would want a ****** endorsing him.

Someone obviously has a bad temper. I would prove it if someone is up for it some recording and get me a snake player i prefer somewere the EC to have less lagg. Also Delicious Cake i pointed out what you did wrong against one single snake player I DIDN'T SAY YOUR ARE SUCH A BAD ZSS PLAYER. Stop your freaking cursing I would not lie if it could not be done. And I saw your Combo video and i give you props your timing is awsome. And by looking at that combo video i don't think you have lost.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Also Delicious Cake i pointed out what you did wrong against one single snake player

How can I be doing something wrong when you can't give a reason as to why it's wrong while everyone else agrees with me.

I DIDN'T SAY YOUR ARE SUCH A BAD ZSS PLAYER.

meet

I said Some ZSS players do i have to go that video for VT power rankings seeing you use Front smash and spamming side b against snake you are the first example.

And I saw your Combo video and i give you props your timing is awsome. And by looking at that combo video i don't think you have lost.

See now I know you're just talking out of your ass. If by "combo video" you mean my non-existent one, then yeah, I'm the best ever. If by "combo video" you mean the 30 second intro to the board compilation that has 1 clip of me, I don't understand how you can draw any sort of conclusion from that.

I learned ZSS by watching Absolute Zero by Claw and i learned somethings and i still lost so i made my own style of fighting with ZSS and it works If you guys want.

If I show you a video of me dash-attack juggling Snake across FD at 150% and then following him off the edge in a falling f-air for the KO, would you just go ahead and assume that it works all the time? Because I have several clips of myself doing that and I would in no way recommend that as a strategy.

I'm off for now, don't really need to prove anything further.

EDIT: Ok look, I don't mean to lose my temper, but the point I'm trying to make is that if you can't even back up your points with some sort of theory as to why it works, you shouldn't be posting them.

 

[TheRockSays]

How can I be doing something wrong when you can't give a reason as to why it's wrong while everyone else agrees with me.


meet



See now I know you're just talking out of your ass. If by "combo video" you mean my non-existent one, then yeah, I'm the best ever. If by "combo video" you mean the 30 second intro to the board compilation that has 1 clip of me, I don't understand how you can draw any sort of conclusion from that.


If I show you a video of me dash-attack juggling Snake across FD at 150% and then following him off the edge in a falling f-air for the KO, would you just go ahead and assume that it works all the time? Because I have several clips of myself doing that and I would in no way recommend that as a strategy.

I'm off for now, don't really need to prove anything further.

you know what im not going to argue with you im just going have to find a snake to beat.

 

[Paff]

One minor nitpick about this argument - Rock, you'd be much better off, in terms of proving your point, playing against a good Snake player in person rather than on wi-fi. The lag from wi-fi, even if you get a relatively good connection, is bad enough to make it very different from in-person matches.

And even if the lag is basically nonexistent, a lot of people will still not be convinced just because it was on wi-fi.

I know you're looking into tournies in your area - probably your best option for showing everyone what you're talking about would be to get some recordings/replays of you playing against Snake players at a tournament.

 

[DeliciousCake]

you know what im not going to argue with you im just going have to find a snake to beat.

It's not whether or not you beat one Snake player, it's whether or not you can consistently beat various good Snake players.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

No more fighting. Im fine with it being 60:40 in snakes favor if thats what everyone else thinks. Im not too experienced in ZSS vs snake cause I usually change to wolf if their using snake so i'll just go along with whatever the majority agrees to.

 

[TheZeroSuit]

Updated OP with information, this matter has been generally decided on. Any votes for next character?

 

[NeoZero]

Wolf... or D3. God I hate those two.

Edit: I'm changing to MK... How did I miss him?

 

[Yankee]

Updated OP with information, this matter has been generally decided on. Any votes for next character?

How about Metaknight? He is the one that people probably have the most trouble with anyway. Or Falco.

 

[TheRockSays]

It's not whether or not you beat one Snake player, it's whether or not you can consistently beat various good Snake players.

i believe i can do it.

 

[FadedImage]

I'd actually like to see what other ZSS mains think about Dedede. We should prolly save MK for a couple weeks. Unless you guys want to kick up a "OMG BAN METAKNIGHT" discussion up in hur.

 

[Adapt]

I'd go with Falco, Pit or Lucario.

These seem to be our hardest matches

 

[Snakeee]

I'd go with Falco, Pit or Lucario.

These seem to be our hardest matches

Pit isn't anywhere near as tough as I used to think he was (probably around even), and Lucario is a bit easier now too but it's definitely still his advantage. Falco is the worst IMO.

And I say DDD is either 45/55 DDD or even.

 

[Bouse]

I vote for Luigi.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I vote for CAPTAIN FALCON!!!

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

so when is this thread gonna be over so we could move to the next char?

 

[TheZeroSuit]

FALCO

Pros:

• Can gimp Falco's recovery.
• Can partially D-Smash Chain Falco (<44% w/ DI, <87% w/o DI)

Cons:

• Falco's stage control will make it difficult for you to approach.
• Falco can gimp ZSS's recovery.
• Falco can chaingrab ZSS at low percents (< ~30%)
• Falco's reflector will minimize the advantage of suitpieces.

Final Verdict: 30:70​

Matchup Advice:

• Game Plan:
  Try your best to get Falco off the stage and force him into repeated edgeguard or gimp attempts.
  
  
• Suitpiece Strategy:
  Falco's reflector is probably the most difficult reflector to deal with. It reflects for the entire duration of the move, both out and back in, and its hitbox's range is just barely under that of our Side-B range. This means that ZSS's primary alternate attack while holding a suitpiece is very difficult to properly space. In order to still maximize the suitpiece advantage, mix-up your suitpiece game with Falco's reflector in mind. When glide-tossing at a Falco, throw up or down instead of forward; many Falco players will reflect on instinct, so dodge the incoming hitbox. Then, punish accordingly with a D-Smash, grab, or other attack.
  
  
• Long Range:
  At a long distance, Falco will cover most of the stage with constant lasers. In order to approach a Falco at long range, you will have to crawl towards him or jump over them. Both of these methods have flaws. When crawling towards a Falco, you are limited to D-Tilts and shield. When jumping, you have no downward facing hitbox to challenge Falco's approach.
  
  
• Medium Range:
  At this range, you'll probably be crawling, in the air, or in your shield. When in the air, be careful what you come down with. If you come down with a Side-B, watch for the lasers that may interrupt you. If you come in with an aerial, it's likely you'll get shield grabbed (which at low percents can be deadly). When you are crawling at this range, watch for two things, boostsmashes and reflectors. Both of these options can be shieldgrabbed. If Falco goes to the air while you are crawling, you should expect a D-Air. You should be able to U-Tilt or Jab out of shield. If you are shielding Falco's lasers, watch out for boostsmashes and dashgrabs. Both of these options can be spotdodge/rolled, but it may be difficult to time properly. If you manage it, punish with a U-Tilt or Jab.
  
  
• Close Range:
  It's rather difficult to get close to Falco without having had a confrontation already, but just like most matchups, Falco can shield pressure better than you can respond. Stick to high-speed, low-lag attacks: Jab and D-Tilt. The biggest problem with this matchup is that retreating out of close range isn't your best option. You will have to handle Falco's shield pressure with ZSS's normal handicaps, out-of-shield U-Tilt, Jabs, etc.
  
  
• In the air:
  As usual, ZSS's lack of downward facing hitboxes is a problem, however, Falco doesn't have an amazing U-Air, which minimizes the weakness. Falco's D-Air can be out-prioritized by ZSS's U-Air, but it's a tricky timing and must be well spaced or you will trade hits. When hit by N-Air or F-Air, SDI away to avoid the last hit. Otherwise, you should have a slight advantage in the air.
  
  
• When Falco is Recovering:
  Falco really only has one option when recovering, Phantasm. Falco puts himself in an extremely dangerous situation when trying to recover with Firebird: it's slow, easily edgehogged, and easily countered. If Falco is trying to Firebird from below the stage (which is usually the only time Falco should) fall next to him and B-Air him into the stage.
  
  As for Phantasm, there are multiple angles to consider. When Falco is coming back to the edge from far away, he's either going to sweetspot the edge or plan on landing on the stage just above it. If you can properly predict him sweetspotting the edge, edgehog quickly for the kill. If he's planning on landing just above, you can wait for him and D-Smash his landing. If you don't want to predict his choice, you can attempt to interrupt the Phastasm with a B-Air (which is risky but highly rewarding). However, it's less risky to B-Air the Falco before he even starts the Phantasm.
  
  
• When ZSS is Recovering:
  There are two options that Falco has to gimp ZSS. He can properly predict her aerial path and spike her with D-Air (must be above the stage), or he can stagespike you with the B-Air which is made easy by the set-path of ZSS's tether. Be careful of recovering high with Flipjump, since it's very easily spiked. Also be careful of stalling on the ledge with your tether, since Falco can easily drop down with a B-Air and stagespike you (since B-Air's hitbox lasts so long). Try to mix-up your recovery when recovering from below, or recover so high that Falco can't reach you with his aerials.
  
  
• Matchup Unique Information:
  Falco's chaingrab can be escaped at >30% by flipjumping immediately out of hit-stun. Before 30%, Falco will be able to walking chaingrab you.
  

Counterpick Advice:

• Stages to Counter-pick:
  • Brinstar - The fallthrough stage helps make it dangerous for Falco's Phantasm, his only option for recovery. It also doesn't have a stage to spike with, so he can't gimp your tether with B-Air. The close quarters help lower his ability to laser and the lava helps bring the fight into the air, where the fight is more balanced.
  • Frigate Orpheon - Again, small quarters means less laser game. The lack of edge on the right side also helps to remove his choices for recovery, forcing him to Firebird. However, this should be considered a double-edged sword since getting spiked off the right side means death.
• Stages to Avoid:
  • Stages with wide spaces (Final Destination, Jungle Japes, etc.)

Falco Contributors:

GMo
8Angel8
Thanks guys!​

Falco's Thread​

Old Information:

Falco got the most votes and it's probably our worst matchup so it will be good to discuss.

Here's what we got from Orion's:

Falco is an annoying little bird no matter how you look at it. I feel in this match-up Falco has a fair advantage in most situations. Not too huge but he is most definitely a threat and should be treated accordingly.

Falco has SHDL/SHTL along with the chain grab to dash attack-DLX hit-cancel combo with will eat a good 50% or more chunk out of your health. He also has a decent speed, a good bair and dair, a deceptively big range on his side smash (along with it hitting above and slightly behind) and if you aren't careful can laserlock you into a controller throwing fit!

In this match-up make the best use of your armor in the beginning to rack up quick damage and be on an equal or greater level when and if the Falco chain grab combo's you. Be wary but aggressive, once you're at 50% the chain grab is no longer a threat and the Falco will change their approach, so if they're the type don't let them spam lasers from the other side of the stage.

Speaking of stage this is a very big factor in the match-up as well. Any kind of long flat stage such as FD and Bridge of Eldin are a definite no no in your favor. Besides the fact the Falco can be cheap and chain grab you off the edge of the stage for a quick death on BoE stages that are long work in favor of chain grabs and laser spams. If able try and avoid FD, BoE, Smashville, and Yoshi's Island. Try places with platforms, Battlefield has been my best stage in this match-up by far but it's all up to what you're comfortable with.

"Shine time". Falco's reflector is also an annoying little device in his arsenal. I goes through walls can punish short hop neutral b's and is an overall good defense against dash attackers as well as a decent edge guard tool. Since you have to be pretty offensive against Falco's this can throw a wrench in the machine known as your game plan. Don't be afraid just cautious of this fact when facing down this foe.

In summary ZSS seems to have a pretty decent sized disadvantage in this match-up and it might come down to stage advantages whether you end up a winner or loser. Keep into account the chain throws, lasers, the reflector, and his overbearing annoying accent and you might just able to turn the tables to make this into a fairly easy face-off for you.

His chain-throw doesn't work on ZSS, thankfully. Second, attempting to spike you with his d-air will fail if you react quickly enough with the tether. It's just a matter of getting close enough to him.

So, you guys know the drill: Pros + Cons, Advice: ground, air, off the stage, and good/bad stages.

 

[Snakeee]

Did we discuss what stages to use vs Snake? I'm good with counter-picking stages so I want to contribute to each character in that department.

For Snake I say use either Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise. Brinstar is probably the best bet because it removes a lot of Snake's options and forces a more face to face battle (yet gives you enough room to space him). Both stages make him much easier to KO as well.

I like Delphino for Falco, but I can't explain why at the moment. I'll add more on that later lol

 

[ph00tbag]

Falco, Falco, Flaco.

This guy is nigh unapproachable. His lasers force you into the air, or down into a crawl. The first option just gets him under you (bad), and the second one gets him pulling his reflector on you (bad). Once you get close, his grab game is amazing, his pressure game is even better, and his aerial game is comparable to yours. His reflector also makes it difficult to begin a match strong by pressuring him with suit pieces, so you can't even put him at a disadvantage early on.

Possible approach idea I just had: crawl under the lasers, then do your best to PS his reflector, then tick grab him. You may even be able to do this if you just normal shield the hit.

Falco doesn't need to do much to beat you. As for you, your primary goal should be to get him off of the stage. Falco is bad, bad, bad off of the stage. The above approach idea might be a good one for this, because you can start off with throwing him off the stage. Once he's off the stage, I like to hang out around the middle of the stage. Why? Because a lot of Falcos like to Phantasm onto the stage, and when they do, I catch them in a dsmash. This is important, because you can get a free 40-80% (or something like that) on Falco, depending on DI. Once you've done this. Go about your business tossing him off the stage again (easier said than done, but that is your goal). Edgeguarding Falco isn't too tough.

Don't worry too much about recovering. Falco, again, is very bad off of the stage. Generally, recover high, then once you're flush with the ledge, recover as the situation dictates. If you go to the ledge, use aerials to try to get Falco to back off.

Appendix A
Things I've interrupted Phantasm with:
Plasma Whip's muzzle flash
Jab
Dsmash
Utilt

There may be a slew of other things that will do this. Dsmash is probably the most profitable. Jab is the most reliable. Utilt is the one that made me feel sexiest.

Appendix B
Falco's CG:
Falco can't CG you. Flip Jump is amazing. Use it.

Despite what I've said here, Falco is still really really hard. He can keep up the pressure at all distances, and almost always has the advantage. You'll notice that my advice revolved around Falco being off the stage. That's because that's the only time you have a good chance against him. Falco is a winnable match-up, but since it depends on your ability to get him off the stage, the match-up is just plain bad.

No better than 4:6, although that would be pushing it. 3:7 is more likely.

 

[Snakeee]

That's a bit of a stretch to say 40-80 percent off the d-smash ph00tbag, but otherwise really good post.
I'm starting to think that maybe the best way to edge guard falco is by timing a D-smash from the very end of the stage. That might hit him even if he goes for the edge with phantasm.

 

[FadedImage]

40-80% is right, if they are low percent to begin with, you can chain them for like, 30-50 damage, and then f-air them out of it.

As for things that can hit through phantasm... B-Air, B-Air, B-Air, and B-Air...

Seriously, I just started trying it, but I don't think it would be too hard to fall with a Falco/Fox and predict a phantasm. If you connect, all you gotta do is tether the edge and watch them die. Needs more live testing (haven't been to a tournament since I came up with this theory) but it's got good potential.

I'll do a full synopsis post in a bit.

 

[ph00tbag]

As for things that can hit through phantasm... B-Air, B-Air, B-Air, and B-Air...

I was thinking about this as I was posting. I've never tried it, but I think it could be very useful, especially when Falco is at high percent.

That's a bit of a stretch to say 40-80 percent off the d-smash ph00tbag, but otherwise really good post.

I admit, I pulled the numbers up from my memory, which is probably intensely clouded by the disproportionate amount of 64 I've been playing lately.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Bleh I hate falco. Hes just annoying, even though he cant do his grabby tricks as good as on some characters hes still really hard to approach. It takes hardly any skill to beat a zero suit player when using falco so 7/3 imo in falcos favor.

 

[Ing.]

Pros:
-Easy Edge Hog/Guard

Cons:
-Reflect Zap Beam

Final Verdict:
6:4

Matchup Advice:

* On the ground:
-Flaco has easy evasion by using Side B
-Zss is easly able to link moves after her dash attack

At long range
-Hard to get close due to spam of falco's B move
-Disadvantage due to lack of Long Ranged attacks and magority is mid-ranged

At medium range
-Zss Is OK in the Mid-ranged due to Whip
-Disadvantage is her Zap gun due to reflection

At close range
-Falco is able to quikly Flick Zss away with the use of DownB
-Zss has strong attacks which makes her deadly in close and able to link attacks easyly

* In the air:
-In Zss Attacks from the front of falco he can flick once again
- if Uaired from the bottom of falco and timed right then it is realy effective


* Off the edge:
-easy to edge hog with a descent length of the whip (recovery Move)
-as falco Charges to the edge with hes Uair he is able to be countered with a downA. (only if timed CORRECTLY)

Stage Counterpick Advice:

* Stages to Counter-pick:
-Pokemon Stadium
-Smash Ville
-Battle Field
-Lylat Cruise

* Stages to Avoid:
-Most stages with very little room to move

 

[DeliciousCake]

I'm very tired currently, was up for 10 hours playing Smash. Anyways, I'll post some on Falco after I get some sleep. Only thing I wanted to mention is that Falco's CG to spike is limited (thankfully) in that having one of the longest recoveries will almost always allow her a grip back on the edge.

 

[Ing.]

Wow a really dedicated SSB. player... thats a pritty long time to play.. well hope u get some rest and post alot 2morroe

 

[FadedImage]

Oh Falco, he makes me phear teh bread.

Might as well go with the format!

Pros:

• Fairly easily gimped
• Partial D-Smash chain

Cons:

• Insanely good stage control
• Low percent chaingrab
• Good gimp game (spike and bair)

Final Verdict: 3:7​

Matchup Advice:

• On the ground:
  
  At long range... cry? This is a pretty bad range to be at, since Falco is going to be SHDLing the crap out of you. You'll have to try to jump over the lasers or crawl under them to slowly close the gap between you and him. If you crawl, be wary of boostsmashes and reflectors. When you jump, make sure he doesn't predict your landing and punish with a grab/smash.
  
  At medium range it's still too risky to be trying to space with side-bs, since you'll probably just eat a laser to the face. If you are crawling in at this distance, you really have to be ready to shield a reflector and grab to punish (as ph00t suggested earlier). Keep looking out for boostsmash/grabs. Otherwise, not much different from long range.
  
  At close range you're still kind of screwed. ZSS isn't the greatest close range combatant, and yet, Falco MAKES you go there. This is mainly why this matchup can be considered a hard counter because Falco puts you exactly where you don't want to be. You don't really have any safe moves that won't get shieldgrabbed (which at low percents will lead to 30-40% of chaingrab damage). Try to space some d-tilts and f-tilts and punish any rolls he tries as movement out of shield (with the usual u-tilt).
  
  Falco is going to be hard to hit with a D-Smash, since you're basically gonna have to catch him with his pants down to do it. There really isn't a time he's going to be approaching you and you can stop his dash with a d-smash or such.
  
  Another extra note. Falco's reflector is almost the same length of our side-b (just a tiny bit smaller) so when you start the match with suitpieces, be very very careful. His reflector is godly: stays out for the entire duration of the move, not just the hitbox part. So, if you try to trick him into thinking you're going to throw a piece, and then side-b (like you normally do against reflector characters) make sure you are just barely out of range for his reflector, but still in range for your side-b, it's tough.
  
  
• In the air:
  
  Luckily, Falco's u-air is subpar as far as u-airs go, so you don't have to worry too much about coming down on him. However, when trying to combo him with u-airs, be very wary of his d-air, it comes out very fast and hits hard. I'm fairly sure the u-air can override the d-air (it does on fox's for sure, and I'm pretty sure I've hit through falco's too). However, you need to be very precise about it. In general, Falco's other aerials are about par, try to SDI his multi-hitters (nair and fair). F-air is super punishable if he lands with it. B-Air is good, but I'll talk about that in edgeguard.
  
  
• Off the edge:
  
  When Falco is recovering, he's only really got one option, phantasm. Now, he can phantasm into two places, back onto the stage and onto the ledge. If you KNOW he's going for the ledge, tether it and hang loose, easy kill. However, Falco's will generally go for the stage, so you have to train them to be scared! <theorycraft> When a Falco is recovering, RAR a shorthop and slowly start falling with him, when you see him start a phantasm, immediately B-Air. After this, it should be extremely difficult for the Falco to make it back to the stage with his phantasm, so tether the edge and wait for him to die. </theorycraft> If the Falco isn't that far out yet, do what ph00t said and chill in the middle of the stage, he'll come, they always do... hahahah. No, but really, a fair amount of Falcos have this weird tendency to phantasm even when they don't need to at all. Wait for it, and punish.
  
  When you're recovering, be very careful about being predictable. If you down-b too close to the stage, it's an easy spike for Falco (since your trajectory is so easy to track). However, also be very careful of tethering with Falco around. A good Falco will wait until you are about to tether and drop along the wire with a b-air. His b-air stays out long enough so that if you reel in while he's dropping, you'll immediately get stage spiked: BE READY TO TECH. If you tech the stage when he does this, you can even turn it around into your gimp kill. He'll probably have to up-b to get back to the edge, use invinc frames/tetherhog for the kill.
  

Counterpick Advice:

• Stages to Counter-pick:
  • Brinstar - Close quarters help nullify the laser game. Fallthrough stage makes it tough for Falco (if he phantasms and misses the edge sweetspot, gg).
  • Yoshi's Island - ??? maybe? The small size and platform make for very intimate combat. Shy guys can help stop lasers. The wall on Yoshi's goes all the way down, making for easier walltechs (when Falco spike ***** you). Uneven stage means you might escape chaingrab earlier.
• Stages to Avoid:
  • Final Destination - Okay, I can't say this enough. His stage control is absurd with no platforms, don't even think about going here.
  • Jungle Japes - This stage already sucks for ZSS, it's just that much worse with Falco. CG spikes into the water blow pretty hard, and his recovery can't be gimped off the right side. The high ceiling means you might gain a bit of survivability (because of u-smash), but you'll probably lose it in water-gimp kills + klaptrap.

In response to Snakeee: Delfino is pretty good for Falco (cuz it's a fallthrough over half the time) but the water part sucks. If you fall in the water, get ready for a ****ton of spikes.