Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[Adapt]

I love Norfair, it's my counterpick for a lot of matches

Against ROB I prefer small stages that he has nowhere to camp on. PS1 is good too because it is relatively small and our moves will travel through the obstacles while his don't.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I find that Zero Suit Samus has the advantage on R.O.B. ROB definately has the advantage at long range but zero suit samus has a really good mid range game and if rob tries to laser you can side-b him or hit him with the paralyser.

IMO its 60/40 in Zero suits favor.

 

[FadedImage]

sounds like a pretty wide consensus of 6:4 advantage.

Also, I think we should go over the ratio system that we're using:

should we have 6:4 be a slight advantage or a soft counter? I propose using a list something like this:

5:5 even
6:4 slight advantage Ex: Snake's advantage over ZSS or our advantage over GaW
7:3 soft counter (tough matchup, but can be overcome by skill) Ex: ZSS's advantage over R.O.B.
8:2 hard counter (shuts down most of your options, really tough to overcome) Ex: Falco's advantage over ZSS
9:1 near impossible (result of infinites and such) Ex: Dedede's advantage over DK or Marth's advantage over Ness
10:0 absolutely impossible (doesn't exist in brawl)

I dunno, I think if we define it like that, we allow ourselves some more breathing room at the lower level, because honestly, we'll never be using 9:1 or 8:2 (if Falco isn't an 8:2, I can't think of anyone that is).

 

[Adapt]

I think you should use the same system that DanGR uses in his topic in tactical discussion

30/70-10/90(Red)------big disadvantage
40/60-35/65(Orange)-disadvantage
55/45-45/55(Yellow)---even
60/40-65/35(Green)---advantage
70/30-90/10(Blue)-----big advantage

btw did anyone notify the ROB boards?

 

[kuenzel]

sounds like a pretty wide consensus of 6:4 advantage.

10:0 absolutely impossible (doesn't exist in brawl)

Your wrong- Sakurai has a 10:0 advantage over AT's

Luckily, the 8-min timer ran out before he could three stock them.

 

[deepseadiva]

ATTENTION LADIES

The Peach boards are currently discussing Zamus. :3

It's a teeny bit crazy as of now, some saying Zamus is a dazzling Peach counter, others saying it's even. If any of you would like to help us wizen our facts, share some bits of info, or ideally provide some full-frazzled tactical discussion, zip down this link:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178193&page=92

We're also discussing counterpick stages, which is usually somewhat simpler. Just pop in with a "Zamus is good on ____, and bad on ____." And that would be very helpful. Linky link:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194857

Aren't you guys COLD?

 

[TeeVee]

I main rob, used zss alot though for the past few months (won a couple sets with her) and there is nooooo way that the matchup is 6 - 4 zss. If I had more time, I would explain but for now I have to write an essay (I will be back).


For now just ask spec about our matches...

 

[FadedImage]

I think you should use the same system that DanGR uses in his topic in tactical discussion

it's just SOOOO vague.

Also, I like a 10 point system, it's a lot easier to get a consensus, even if it is through generalization.

and yeah, I've been keeping up on posting in the other char boards.

 

[Snakeee]

I actually think we should be using more accurate ratings now even though I didn't in my thread (including ".5's).

EDIT: I know we're not on DDD yet, but I want to copy this little part of a convo I had here so I don't forget it lol. (well I edited it putting only what I said and organized it)

ZSS is almost helpless on the ground against DDD
-even d-smash doesnt pressure him enough
-and I'd say mix it up with grabs but A) a missed grab against DDD with ZSS is TERRIBLE news, and B) his spot dodge is instant and makes it ridiculously hard to pull off on him

The only thing is she has the advantage in the air
- but not by as much as i thought before
because when they anticipate forward B I get f-aired/baired
,and if I don't space up B right or go for an up air I get d-aired everytime

 

[TheRockSays]

ooooooooo 6:4 ratio on zss favor dang i thought it was the other way around well most of the R.O.Bs i face are pretty gay and are very good spammers. ZSS is pressured to much with spammers and R.O.B is one of them.

 

[DeliciousCake]

I actually think we should be using more accurate ratings now even though I didn't in my thread (including ".5's).

EDIT: I know we're not on DDD yet, but I want to copy this little part of a convo I had here so I don't forget it lol. (well I edited it putting only what I said and organized it)

ZSS is almost helpless on the ground against DDD
-even d-smash doesnt pressure him enough
-and I'd say mix it up with grabs but A) a missed grab against DDD with ZSS is TERRIBLE news, and B) his spot dodge is instant and makes it ridiculously hard to pull off on him

The only thing is she has the advantage in the air
- but not by as much as i thought before
because when they anticipate forward B I get f-aired/baired
,and if I don't space up B right or go for an up air I get d-aired everytime

I dunno, I play against an incredible Dedede, and I seem to have less trouble beating him than most of the other people in my crew.

 

[cba]

I just played a spammy rob. his CP was Luigis mansion and that shiz messed it all up for me.=/

 

[TheRockSays]

I just played a spammy rob. his CP was Luigis mansion and that shiz messed it all up for me.=/

well good thing most people can ban that stage in tourneys xD by the way where you live at the bronx i need a sparring partner getting rusty.

 

[cba]

well good thing most people can ban that stage in tourneys xD by the way where you live at the bronx i need a sparring partner getting rusty.

I live around E. 138, im going to Bum's weekly this friday for first time, if you wanna go just let me know

 

[TheRockSays]

I live around E. 138, im going to Bum's weekly this friday for first time, if you wanna go just let me know

dang i live along kingsbridge by the 4 train i wish i could go to bum's weekly but im broke i need a job.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I main rob, used zss alot though for the past few months (won a couple sets with her) and there is nooooo way that the matchup is 6 - 4 zss. If I had more time, I would explain but for now I have to write an essay (I will be back).


For now just ask spec about our matches...

wow, dude dont judge a matchup off a wifi match where you cant powershield...

 

[TeeVee]

Do you honestly think you are the only zss I've ever played?

 

[FadedImage]

Bickering doesn't help the discussion

please post a detailed matchup analysis from R.O.B.'s perspective

 

[cba]

dang i live along kingsbridge by the 4 train i wish i could go to bum's weekly but im broke i need a job.

Wow thats gay.
i live in yonkers but spend the whole day in the Bx. i take the 4(yonkers) bus to woodlawn 4 train and from there to 125 you know the deal.
maybe next time, just pm me.

 

[Hence]

I believe Zero Suit Samus is at a slight disadvantage (55:45) here.
A good R.O.B can be devastating, and has the ability to force an approach.

 

[cba]

I believe Zero Suit Samus is at a slight disadvantage (55:45) here.
A good R.O.B can be devastating, and has the ability to force an approach.

but youre forgetting about a "good" ZSS. either way, i think that ZSS has a slight advantage.

 

[Hence]

but youre forgetting about a "good" ZSS. either way, i think that ZSS has a slight advantage.

No, actually I'm not. If you wish to insult me, take it somewhere else. (PM, AIM)
You've said that ZSS had a slight advantage in another post. Really, there's no need to repeat yourself.

I haven't really played very many offline matches against R.O.B yet, but his spam online is really hard to get around. It makes spacing even more difficult, and his smash attacks have quite the range as well. If one were to pressure R.O.B extremely offensively, I'm sure it would be in Zero Suit's favor. I suppose it really depends on how you play against him. If this counts for anything, the Match-Up chart in tactical discussion lists Zero Suit at a small disadvantage. Although, Fox's Match-Up with Zero-Suit was recently increased, giving us a large advantage against him. (Our only large advantage.) I feel this to be incorrect, so theoretically every other match-up could also be incorrect. Additionally, I'll be playing a very good R.O.B offline soon. I'll be sure to give you guys my imput.

 

[ph00tbag]

I haven't really played very many offline matches against R.O.B yet, but his spam online is really hard to get around.

The match-ups in this chart are all offline. Online match-ups are bound to be different. You said ZSS could have the advantage if she maintained offensive pressure. But if she has the advantage there, then she has the advantage, period. Just because your playstyle doesn't work against ROBs doesn't mean everyone's is in the same boat. My playstyle sucks against Foxes, but ZSS still beats the **** out of Fox on paper, and that's what this thread is about.

 

[Snakeee]

Apparently the back room is discussing banning ZSS' d-smash chain on Fox . If that happens I'll just use Sheik though. Honestly, I feel that we'll be at a pretty strong disadvantage against him in that case. It wouldn't be the worst match up, but it would be tough

 

[Hence]

You can dsmash chain Fox, if so to what %?

 

[Snakeee]

You can dsmash chain Fox, if so to what %?

Heh, its a 0-death, and you get get in two d-smashes each time. It's easiest to end it with a single d-smash to b-air or forward B. You have to get the timing down though.

 

[NeoZero]

Wait, why would they ban the d-smash chain? I know its great, but its incredibly hard to use on a good player. If they wanna ban the downsmash chain, shouldn't other, easier things be banned too???

*wanders off to ponder this for some time*

 

[Hence]

The Process: First, D-Smash an opponent. After a short period, they will leave the stun animation and fall backwards, if their recovery isn't good enough, they will touch the ground before being able to jump again. When they are landing, their stun cooldown is being refreshed, therefore allowing ZSS to D-Smash them again, succeeding in stunning them once more. If you have good timing, they will not be able to even shield the attacks. Thus, on certain characters, ZSS has a 100% guaranteed combo.

The Escape: Now, DI can help quite a bit, lowering the "guaranteed" percent a healthy amount. If the opponent DIs their joystick vertically UP (horizontal doesn't matter) at the moment they leave the stun, they will have more time in the air, which will give them more time to recover, and more time to jump. Sadly, there is never any "bad" DI, there is either useless/no DI or good DI. Now, like I said before, charging the D-Smash will knock an opponent higher into the air, giving them more time to jump out of the chain, so try to use the shortest charge possible, or just c-stick it altogether.

The Solution: On the other hand, degenerating your D-Smash by using it repeatedly will make it more difficult for your opponent to escape. This has great implications! The best way to keep your opponent in a D-Smash chain longer is to D-Smash chain them longer! What this means is that if you start a D-Smash chain at a low percent, then by the time you get up to the character's limit, you'll have degenerated your D-Smash enough that you will be able to continue the chain!

The List: Alright, I bet your mouths are watering with curiosity, wondering who the poor victims are. Well with no further ado, here are my findings:

(None and Full refer to the amount of degeneration, so None means you haven't used the D-Smash for 9 moves, and Full means you've used it 8 times in a row.)


--------------------- with DI ------- w/out DI ----------
Character : ---- None - Full ------ None - Full --------
Bowser : --------- 0% - 0% -------- 2% - 24% -------
Diddy Kong : ---- 0% - 0% -------- 0% - 13% -------
Link : ------------- 0% - 0% -------- 1% - 24% -------
Sheik : ---------- 22% - 55% ------ 39% - 91% ------
Ganondorf : ----- 0% - 4% -------- 27% - 63% ------
Zero Suit Samus: 0% - 0% -------- 0% - 3% --------
Metaknight : ----- 0% - 0% -------- 0% - 14% ------
King Dedede : --- 0% - 0% --------- 0% - 4% -------
Fox : ------------ 58% - 120% ----- 58% - 121% ----
Falco : ---------- 20% - 44% ------- 35% - 87% -----
Wolf : ----------- 39% - 91% ------- 56% - 117% ---
Captain Falcon : 12% - 44% ------- 39% - 93% -----
Squirtle : -------- 0% - 0% --------- 0% - 15% ------
Ike : ------------- 0% - 0% --------- 0% - 4% --------
Lucas : ---------- 0% - 0% --------- 0% - 1% --------
Sonic : ---------- 0% - 0% --------- 0% - 2% --------
Basic Explanation: If you connect with a D-Smash while the listed opponent is below the listed percent, before the D-Smash, you will always be able to connect with another D-Smash. For instance, if you were D-Smash a Sheik at 21%, you will always be able to D-Smash her again. Even though her percent will go up to 32% from the D-Smash, since she was below the listed percent before the D-Smash, then you are guaranteed another D-Smash.

Whoa, this is a great find. I remember reading this and thinking it was a combo with an Up+B. Heh. I wounder if I can pull off a single dmash into two more if a MK doesn't DI out of the combo. (At the beginning of the match, that is.)

 

[Snakeee]

Eh, it doesn't even work for me on falco once at 0 unless maybe I'm absolutely frame perfect. It's only really useful on Fox, and occasionally on Wolf at 0. But, usually I get hit when I try to d-smash Wolf and it hardly ever pays off

 

[ph00tbag]

Apparently the back room is discussing banning ZSS' d-smash chain on Fox .

Dude, **** that ****. Seriously, there should not even be discussion. This nonsense has got to stop. The SBR as of late has been too quick to give consideration to the whining of scrubs who are just mad that their character was poorly designed. The MK ban discussion is understandable. The Dedede infinite cg ban discussion is tolerable. This borders on stupidity. It's not even an infinite, and it's actually kinda tough to pull off. This wouldn't even make Fox any better. They'd have to ban all of the other gay infinites on Fox, and at that rate, we may as well just ban Dedede and MK. Falco, too.

And there's my rant.

 

[Snakeee]

Well I think the MK ban is completely ridiculous, but the DDD infinite should be a no-brainer to ban

 

[DeliciousCake]

If this is banned they might as well finally ban wobbling.

 

[Hence]

Well I think the MK ban is completely ridiculous, but the DDD infinite should be a no-brainer to ban

Ice Climbers can 0%-Death all characters, while King DeDeDe's chaingrab is character specific.
The real question is this:
When discoveries were found in Melee, were they banned? No.
They were utilized, abused, and completely changed SSBM's metagame.

 

[Snakeee]

Ice Climbers can 0%-Death all characters, while King DeDeDe's chaingrab is character specific.
The real question is this:
When discoveries were found in Melee, were they banned? No.
They were utilized, abused, and completely changed SSBM's metagame.

If something is really game-breaking it should be banned. Wobbling was usually banned in Melee.

What's weird is my region seems to be like the only one where usually: IC's super broken type cg is banned (well actually I don't think it is in NY but it is in NJ), DDD's infinite cg is banned, and all grab release infinite cg's are banned.

I actually wasn't sure about banning ZSS' chain on Fox. But, now that I think about it, it shouldn't be banned because it is situational. It can't be done at mid-high percentages if the d-smash is fresh. And it's also very hard to pull off a d-smash on Fox in general.

 

[ph00tbag]

Well I think the MK ban is completely ridiculous, but the DDD infinite should be a no-brainer to ban

If the MK ban is completely ridiculous, the DDD cg ban is, too. DDD's chain grab makes five characters unviable, four of whom are barely viable or worse, anyway. MK does the same to more than twice that. Why ban the infinite if MK is so much better?

 

[Hence]

If the MK ban is completely ridiculous, the DDD cg ban is, too. DDD's chain grab makes five characters unviable, four of whom are barely viable or worse, anyway. MK does the same to more than twice that. Why ban the infinite if MK is so much better?

An MK without skill doesn't make me unviable, but I do see what you're getting at.
Metaknight is the only character that can 2-Stock me, considering all of the matches I've played thus far. IMO, if something is character specific and considered an exploit, it shouldn't be banned. That's what counterpicks are for.

 

[Snakeee]

If the MK ban is completely ridiculous, the DDD cg ban is, too. DDD's chain grab makes five characters unviable, four of whom are barely viable or worse, anyway. MK does the same to more than twice that. Why ban the infinite if MK is so much better?

Even top DDD players I played think it's ********. And what kind of logic is saying that the characters aren't viable? You should really play against Bum he makes bottom tier characters look incredible. I think there are very few, if any, characters in this game that are not really capable of winning a big tourney.

Metaknight is not as broken as people make him out to be, he's just almost certainly the best character in the game. The top tier in Melee was more broken than Meta was to Brawl. I was just talking to M2K yesterday and he said this too. And the reason so many people want to ban him is that at lower levels of play, Metaknight completely wrecks them. Of course there are less people that are at a high level of play, and know what to do against him.

 

[ph00tbag]

Even top DDD players I played think it's ********. And what kind of logic is saying that the characters aren't viable? You should really play against Bum he makes bottom tier characters look incredible. I think there are very few, if any, characters in this game that are not really capable of winning a big tourney.

Metaknight is not as broken as people make him out to be, he's just almost certainly the best character in the game. The top tier in Melee was more broken than Meta was to Brawl. I was just talking to M2K yesterday and he said this too. And the reason so many people want to ban him is that at lower levels of play, Metaknight completely wrecks them. Of course there are less people that are at a high level of play, and know what to do against him.

Top DDD players don't have to use it. If they don't, then a ban isn't even necessary. I have no issue with a soft ban if DDD players simply decide not to use the infinite.

I don't care if Bum can make a bottom tier look good. KDJ's Pichu could hand any of us our ***** on a silver platter. That doesn't mean he could take that Pichu to MLG Anaheim and win the tournament. That's what viability means. ARS is one of the best Falcons in my state and has thoroughly beaten people many a North Carolinian into the pavement, but he does not win tournaments. Low and Bottom tier characters are generally where they are because it takes exceptional individuals to win big tournaments with them. True, some of them don't belong in those tiers, but that has nothing to do with the fact that characters that do belong there genuinely suck, and no amount of Bums and KDJs in the world can make them viable at big tourneys.

Yes, the top tier in Melee were incredibly broken compared to the rest of the cast. So what? That's Melee. This is Brawl. I'm not arguing that MK should be banned or that he's broken. I'm saying that he is by a significant margin the best character in the game, and few characters stand to fight him, let alone beat him, between high level players of equal skill.

I just want you to compare this to DDD's infinite, which only works against five characters, four of which will likely not be winning tournaments anyway due to plenty of factors other than DDD. Given that MK is not broken, DDD's infinite is not broken at all on its own.

 

[Snakeee]

But Bum DOES win tournaments. In fact he wins every single time in NY, and he's won even when he used other characters besides DK that were bottom tier including Falcon, Ganon, and Jigglypuff.
I heard...well I think it was Silent Spectre that places high in Brawl tourneys using all Falcon.
This isn't the point though and I agree that people will very rarely win a tourney with a character of such low caliber.

I don't see how you think DDD's standing cg is not broken though. Saying that the characters it works on are low tier is a VERY poor argument. So, you don't want to ban something that is an automatic KO from a single grab because the characters suck anyway?

 

[Hence]

But Bum DOES win tournaments. In fact he wins every single time in NY, and he's won even when he used other characters besides DK that were bottom tier including Falcon, Ganon, and Jigglypuff.
I heard...well I think it was Silent Spectre that places high in Brawl tourneys using all Falcon.
This isn't the point though and I agree that people will very rarely win a tourney with a character of such low caliber.

I don't see how you think DDD's standing cg is not broken though. Saying that the characters it works on are low tier is a VERY poor argument. So, you don't want to ban something that is an automatic KO from a single grab because the characters suck anyway?

If you play against a D3 player using a character who can be infinited, use a different character against him. Really, it's that simple. Come on now, if he could do it to every character, it would most certainly be broken. ATM, I don't see it as a problem - Counterpick.

Lol, we're rather off-topic.
We could always turn this into King DeDeDe week.