Overswarm's PROVE IT Contest!

[Gates]

Good start, but you have to follow contest rules!

Make a video explaining what is bad about norfair (if all it is is the ledges, go for it) and try to go ahead attack any counter-arguments you think you might see in your video. The video doesn't have to be long, it can be as little as a minute, just know that the more complete the video the better it is.

WHAT.

I DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN THAT ****. IT'S TOTALLY OBVIOUS.

THIS IS BULL****. GIVE ME MY WII SHOP CHANNEL GAMES.

plz.

 

[Tyr_03]

I'm going to sleep on the piles of money I have earned playing this game.

Quoted for ridiculous exaggeration lol

 

[DanGR]

The camera shift made it clear that the wall was coming. He could probably have grabbed you and thrown you in the other direction had he been more aware of the stage.

That's... the dumbest reason for keeping a stage legal. If you have to keep a better eye on the stage than your opponent, then the stage is probably wack.

 

[TP]

That's... the dumbest reason for keeping a stage legal. If you have to keep a better eye on the stage than your opponent, then the stage is probably wack.

The camera zooms out and shifts like 10 whole seconds before the wall shows up. How can you NOT notice it? Besides, you don't need a reason to keep a stage legal. You need a reason to ban it. That why we started with all stages (except the obvious failures), not FD only.

 

[Linkshot]

"Hey look, the camera expanded. That means lava is coming."

It's not an insignificant red dot or something. It's a massive change in proportions. At that point, you're purposely ignoring the stage and only you are to blame for taking a disadvantage.

 

[Overswarm]

Quoted for ridiculous exaggeration lol

Since Brawl's release, I've earned a few thousand dollars; I've been winning since day one. Not an exaggeration. I've paid off my car, my computer, and never really touched my bank account. Just lived out of my wallet.



If I still had it all and put it all on singles, that'd be a pile. >:[

 

[bobson]

Is anyone actually planning on making a video or did you all just decide to flame eachother instead?

 

[Overswarm]

Is anyone actually planning on making a video or did you all just decide to flame eachother instead?

Of course no one is going to make a video. =P

Doesn't mean I won't give the option.

 

[Mister Eric]

May I expect that you'll show me evidence to why the stages that are banned are broken?

 

[Overswarm]

I'm going to make a vid for one of 'em and write up a list for the others, but don't have a timetable for it yet

 

[SamuraiPanda]

That why we started with all stages (except the obvious failures), not FD only.

Huh. That just gets me thinking... is that actually the truth? Or was it reversed? Meaning, did we (as a competitive community) start with the full stage list and remove them one by one, or did we ADD to the stages that we innately knew were going to stay legal (BF/FD/SV, etc.)?

Now that I think about it.. I feel like the latter was the case. We knew what kind of game we wanted to play, we knew (roughly) what kinds of stages we were looking for, so we moreso added stages to our stage lists than subtracted. And the "we" in this case is clearly not the Midwest (even I decided to cut down from the full stage list), but is instead, well, everyone else.

Interesting distinction, actually. Kinda reveals a lot about the development of our ruleset in the tournament scene. Am I saying one method is better than the other? No. I'm just saying that they both exist, and the reason many people fight OS is because they are from the "adding stages" group rather than the "removing stages" group.

 

[TP]

Huh. That just gets me thinking... is that actually the truth? Or was it reversed? Meaning, did we (as a competitive community) start with the full stage list and remove them one by one, or did we ADD to the stages that we innately knew were going to stay legal (BF/FD/SV, etc.)?

Now that I think about it.. I feel like the latter was the case. We knew what kind of game we wanted to play, we knew (roughly) what kinds of stages we were looking for, so we moreso added stages to our stage lists than subtracted. And the "we" in this case is clearly not the Midwest (even I decided to cut down from the full stage list), but is instead, well, everyone else.

Interesting distinction, actually. Kinda reveals a lot about the development of our ruleset in the tournament scene. Am I saying one method is better than the other? No. I'm just saying that they both exist, and the reason many people fight OS is because they are from the "adding stages" group rather than the "removing stages" group.

A philosophical debate about the inherent value of game content! This thread sure has come a long way from the flamefest of an hour ago.

It appears that some people would add to FD and others would subtract from the whole. Your preference comes down to what you want out of the game. Some feel that we should act like other fighting communities, so they stick to the more basic stages. Others feel that stages are one of the things that make the series unique, so their diversity should be encouraged. Is one ideology better than the other? Probably not, but this separation between two groups of players is probably the source of people debating over what makes a stage "broken".

 

[wazgood]

yoshi's island melee is broken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VblbenUkjc

 

[Linkshot]

Didn't the Melee metagame start out with all stages and items, and go from there?

 

[Kantō]

haha looks fun, a lot of those stages CAN be broken. but most arent.

 

[Tyr_03]

I was going to repeat how futile it is for anyone to spend time on making a video. But instead I'll try to be productive.


This thread isn't going to make progress on this debate. OS knows it. We know it. Why not just take a vote and settle this once and for all? The stagelist is for tournaments that we're ALL going to. Why shouldn't we all have a say in what stages we're playing on? It seems like the most fair solution to the problem and might settle some differences rather than keeping our region split up into as many groups as we are.

 

[bobson]

Didn't the Melee metagame start out with all stages and items, and go from there?

Melee started out like that, but when Brawl came around a good chunk of the competitive players who used to play Melee "knew better" than to start out like that. That's not to say everything wasn't tested, but certain aspects were definitely thrown out before being proven broken.

 

[Overswarm]

I was going to repeat how futile it is for anyone to spend time on making a video. But instead I'll try to be productive.


This thread isn't going to make progress on this debate. OS knows it. We know it. Why not just take a vote and settle this once and for all? The stagelist is for tournaments that we're ALL going to. Why shouldn't we all have a say in what stages we're playing on? It seems like the most fair solution to the problem and might settle some differences rather than keeping our region split up into as many groups as we are.

?

This thread is about a contest.

"Voting" doesn't matter to me. Never will unless I specifically ask you to vote.

I've given a contest to everyone to let them try to prove why a stage should be removed, and a guaranteed prize to the winner if 5 people participate. That's what the thread is about; Lain just came in with his flamethrower because I've got control of his brain. He doesn't even read my posts anymore, he just goes RAEWTJKAWEKLGJAWKLGJAFAJLDJ inside his head and goes into a blind, impotent rage.

 

[Linkshot]

Luls. Hammer of the King?

Annnnywaaaaay...

I'm saying maybe Brawl SHOULD have started that way. Melee is extremely successful and lovable, and maybe Brawl needed to be kicked off the same way Melee was, instead of treated as a Melee improvement.

 

[Landry]

Luls. Hammer of the King?

Annnnywaaaaay...

I'm saying maybe Brawl SHOULD have started that way. Melee is extremely successful and lovable, and maybe Brawl needed to be kicked off the same way Melee was, instead of treated as a Melee improvement.

It was a very different community coming to Brawl than that coming to Melee. The very limited competitive community that existed for Smash 64 for the most part didn't carry over to Melee. When people came to Melee they played all stages and with items because those were the default settings of the game. As the community improved and evolved we switched to stock matches, no items and we narrowed the stagelist to what it is today. Brawl was different. The competitive community of Melee did begin playing Brawl. Because of this we used some of the rules we had already established (stock matches, no items; although to my knowledge the SBR did do some testing with items, or at least to smash ball, to see if it would work in competitive gameplay). We had already played versions of FD, BF and PS1 so those were the stages we began playing. Everything sort of went from there. I see what your saying but you've got to understand that the community was at a very different point entering Brawl than we were for Melee, hence some of the differences.

 

[Eddie G]

Luls. Hammer of the King?

Annnnywaaaaay...

I'm saying maybe Brawl SHOULD have started that way. Melee is extremely successful and lovable, and maybe Brawl needed to be kicked off the same way Melee was, instead of treated as a Melee improvement.

...just stop.

Brawl is CAMPY, slow-paced, etc.

Melee is...Melee.

There are reasons why Melee is/was extremely successful. It's intense, GFs don't usually put people to sleep, um...well...combos, you get the picture.

We were right to kick-start Brawl the way we did. There are already enough tedious factors about the game to deal with as it is, a step-by-step squabble about picking off stages here and there is asinine and a waste of time.

Edit: ooooor what Landry said.

 

[Overswarm]

There were a lot of people who would rather Smash be like Street Fighter; why they want to emulate a game played by less people and less often is beyond me, but becuase of this they see Smash as being "player vs. player" and see anything out of the ordinary as an opposition to that. Like hazards and whatnot.

This results in a botched game because, ultimately, removing any stage makes certain characters worse or better. We arbitrarily alter the path of the game this way, and that is something we cannot do as a competitive community. Some people, like Lain, do it without even thinking they are. Their characters play the best on stages like FD or Battlefield, and they don't understand why others would want to play on stages that make them play differently. This creates a hostile reaction because they feel threatened by any change going away from them. Host a tournament with FD and Smashville banned and see how Diddy and IC players react.

 

[Eddie G]

There were a lot of people who would rather Smash be like Street Fighter; why they want to emulate a game played by less people and less often is beyond me, but becuase of this they see Smash as being "player vs. player" and see anything out of the ordinary as an opposition to that. Like hazards and whatnot.

I'll take Street Fighter over Centipede or Pac-Man any day, thank you.

 

[Linkshot]

I understand wholeheartedly why Brawl started this way. I'm implying maybe it needs a fresh start the way Melee started.

IMO, there needs to be a large tourney that has a side event of "counter/banned" only stages. Yes, you start on a Starter, back you MUST counterpick one of the Counter/Banned. Once true bias is shown (one strategy popping up on a stage that completely wipes out everybody), then we know it gets the boot.

We've established that Pirate Ship has water camping, and now Rudder Camping. Though, does it always win? Does it force being beaten only be itself?

 

[Eddie G]

Too. ****ing. tedious.

Just play the game and focus on self-improvement already. Get yer hands dirty the ol' fashioned way, with hard work. None of this hocus pocus I wanna be all super dependent on stages bull****. That's settling for individual player mediocrity when it comes to crunch time during a match.

 

[Landry]

Too. ****ing. tedious.

Just play the game and focus on self-improvement already. Get yer hands dirty the ol' fashioned way, with hard work. None of this hocus pocus I wanna be all super dependent on stages bull****. That's settling for individual player mediocrity when it comes to crunch time during a match.

QFT. Neutrals make you better. CPs do not. Straight up.

 

[Tyr_03]

Obviously this thread is to prove a point in your twisted little mind. You want to show the world that these stages aren't really broken and justify using them. I really don't know how you don't see the connection between the community's general annoyance at your stagelists and this thread. And I also realize you don't care about a vote. You never would ask for a vote because you know that the majority doesn't hold the same opinion as you.

I'm suggesting a different thread needs to be made to vote on the stages we want set as counter, counter/ban and ban within the midwest. Since you're so interested in making the midwest community stronger and whatnot, you'd be the perfect person to create such a thread.

I hope that made sense to you this time.

 

[Overswarm]

Not really. People still say garbage like "neutrals make you better". They don't.

I love it when people CP me to starters (no such thing as a netural, FYI Landry). It means they're handicapping themselves. If I win 100% of the time on my CP due to my practice and win 50% of the time on starter stage (a bad ratio for a good player), my odds of winning are pretty good if opponents take me to starter stages. The only exception to that is for characters that get huge advantages from starters, of which there are several.

 

[Count]

Don't ban FD vs me since you love starters so much

 

[Xisin]

I CP you to starters because that's where i feel more comfortable and have the overall better chance of beating you, this by midwest standards includes castle siege sometimes. the last set was a pretty experimental one for me, just seeing if it worked... never know til you try. Most stages don't bother me to play on i just prefer some to others. I actually only hate one maybe 2 stages at best.

 

[bobson]

QFT. Neutrals make you better. CPs do not. Straight up.

Playing on starters (and I refuse to call them "neutral" stages as long as there exists at least one character who can use the stages better than another) only will improve your skill on starters only. A similar situation would be playing Chess with a board half the size and with only three unique pieces; you would assuredly reach a higher level of skill in this mini-Chess than you would if you spent the same amount of time playing real Chess, but you would only do so because you're playing a version of the game that's been arbitrarily weakened in terms of strategy and content. If Captain Falcon was the only character allowed, we would all get better at playing the Captain Falcon VS Captain Falcon matchup at a much faster pace than we would if we were playing other characters, but that really doesn't mean anything outside of the Captain Falcon-only metagame.

The problem arises when the majority of regions think that Brawl can only be competitive if Captain Falcon is the only character allowed and host all their tournaments to that effect. So, in a way, you're right. As long as everyone's playing mini-Brawl instead of Brawl, playing mini-Brawl only will make you better faster... but I want to play Brawl, not mini-Brawl.


And I have to ask, if all of these stages are broken, why isn't there anyone in the Midwest who makes piles of money abusing these stages wherever they're allowed and never places anywhere else? If they disrupt gameplay so much as to be unrecognizable, why do the best players still win consistently regardless of the stagelist? How can you possibly argue that these things are true about the stages when the stages are allowed in your own region and they aren't happening?

 

[Wafles]

The fact that Landry thinks he has some presence here is baffling.

Landry = one of the scrubbiest smashers in WI, I wouldn't take much he says with more than a grain of salt.
No offense meant, but it pains me to see someone without a real presence in the community talking about this stuff.

 

[lain]

I haven't ead ****, Im drunk as ****.

I just wnna point out that OS's placings have been lke....

5th 8x
7th 8x
13 2x
1 3x

those three times he won, were all scrub tourneys that no one was at.

this is in regard to OS always saying he makes money at this game, which irks me, cause i haven't seen him place well in singles (i.e. where the money is at) for like... a year and a half.

i'm pretty sure nothing's happenned in this thread. i'm prety sure it's agrreed that OS is not good at the game and no one wants him running ANYTHING (except linkshot, who is truly an idiot).

OS doesn't take any advice, and never backs down. he is stubborn, and a complete thorn in the balls of the midwest. sure, MW has always been behind in smash, but OS is not only making bad rule sets from which we learn nothing about competitive play on a NATIONAL level (which is what we suck at), but he is also spreading his ******** ideals about smash which people listen to cuase they're dumb and they get worse.

for instance, last tourney, OS was apparently all pissy cause Nope's monthly tourney had 25 edge grab limit rule, so he started gliding under the stage the entire time just to delay the tournament.

he still got 7th, or 5th. idk.

WHAT A ****ING IDIOT

i believe what you said to me sir, was "if you don't like the ruleset at a tournament, don't go".

well eat a ****ing ****. i'm sick and ****ing tired of your stupid bull****.

first, you ran the MW circuit before, and guess what I got payed for winning doubles championships? ZERO ****ING DOLLARS. i wonder where all that money went. Anther and I were given about $40 each. Then you came back to us and said you needed the money back to "recalaculate". I gave you the money (anther didn't), and i never got **** back. guess who was in the lead for doubles circuit before championshios? OS and Joshu. either you're a douche, or you're an idiot at handling things.

next, you create these stupid ****ing custom stages for people to use and claim their "neutral in the backroom". what a load of ****. your agenda to get MK banned, and to do better, is sickening. all the custom stages are perfect MK stages.

-libra, the middle platform is too high for any character to reach with a short hop to effectively pressure and outspace on that platform. MK can camp the **** outta that. plus the two plats on the side save MK from saving ******** up+b suicides (which you do you alot)
-equity is not only SUPER ****ing small, but the blastliunes on the side are closer (better for MK). the TWO MOVING PLATFORMS constantly move off the stage, allowing MK's to upb really far off the stage and recover.
-abyss is just stupid. my only input is that it was made like a year and a half ago when anther was winning everything, then OS ran a "custom stage side tourney" with like two of these 3 stages. guess what, he won. anther didn't like abyss cause it ruined a lot of pikas things (like the plats on the sides screwing up his thunder).

now you're running a circuit where to's are forced to pickm out of a ******** pool of stages. why would i want to pick two stages from a pool of like... distant planet and luigi's? wtf is wrong with you?

it's not JUST os creating this myriad of suck in the MW. sure he's a large contributor (and no one likes him), but there are other things (distance between smashers, few tournies, etc).

i just really need people to step things up.

 

[Overswarm]

Im drunk as ****.

07:16 AM

We should all be more like Lain.

 

[Wafles]

I like how Overswarm is too full of himself to read the post and actually make a reasonable comment about it.
Even though Lain = drunk, he makes way more sense than anything you ever post OS

 

[Eddie G]

Stuff.

You give too much credit to Brawl's sub-par level of depth compared to other games/activities, my friend.

And I have to ask, if all of these stages are broken, why isn't there anyone in the Midwest who makes piles of money abusing these stages wherever they're allowed and never places anywhere else?

Why should they have to if they're good enough on neutrals to the point that they'll absolutely wreck all of us in games 1 and 3 anyway (assuming we even make it to a game 3)?

If they disrupt gameplay so much as to be unrecognizable, why do the best players still win consistently regardless of the stagelist?

Read above. Because the best players we have are from MI, and MI for the most part seems to be adamant on players improving through the use of neutrals (don't needlessly nitpick me for using the word). They (MI's best) come over and wreck everyone except M2K nearly every visit, silly CPs or not.

So my question to you is...WHY shouldn't we put aside all of this "I want to be a pioneer for change" bull**** and focus on improving as players on neutrals first and foremost? The most important game of a set is played on them, and it is on those stages that we get wrecked by MI, and by the other regions who practice the same ideology about stages, the hardest on. It's ok to get a hang of CP stages, but from the lot of you who oppose Lain's argument, it seems as if your CP stage dependency has been escalated to a rather pathetic degree; almost as if you EXPECT yourselves to lose the first game on a neutral. The remedy to that has already been revealed. O.~

The fact that Landry thinks he has some presence here is baffling.

Landry = one of the scrubbiest smashers in WI, I wouldn't take much he says with more than a grain of salt.
No offense meant, but it pains me to see someone without a real presence in the community talking about this stuff.

Get that elitist garbage out of here. There's no need for that, everyone is entitled to their words and opinions on a matter. We are the Smash COMMUNITY, not a group of *** kissing groupies toward only the top players.

 

[Wafles]

Get that elitist garbage out of here. There's no need for that, everyone is entitled to their words and opinions on a matter. We are the Smash COMMUNITY, not a group of *** kissing groupies toward only the top players.

He can share his opinion all he wants, however, I just thought I'd let other people know that what he says shouldn't carry much weight. When did I ever say he was "an *** kissing groupie"?

 

[Eddie G]

He can share his opinion all he wants, however, I just thought I'd let other people know that what he says shouldn't carry much weight.

Why not? Because he doesn't place well, right?

When did I ever say he was "an *** kissing groupie"?

I never said you did; I said not to EXPECT that kind of behavior from people. Telling people "not to listen to so and so" just because of his supposed "scrubbiness" shows the very presence of an elitist mindset. That's what I'm getting at. Keep that nonsense to yourself please.

 

[Wafles]

Why not? Because he doesn't place well, right?



I never said you did; I said not to EXPECT that kind of behavior from people. Telling people "not to listen to so and so" just because of his supposed "scrubbiness" shows the very presence of an elitist mindset. That's what I'm getting at. Keep that nonsense to yourself please.

Alright, have fun getting half of your advice from scrubs who don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Baro]

Have you guys even TRIED to play seriously with each other on banned stages? You'd be surprised how often the better player wins.