Peach Tactical GD

[deepseadiva]

This is the Peach Tactical and General Discussion.

Use this thread to discuss any in-game Peach related theories, ideas, questions, or applications. This thread is a catch-all; we can host any type discussion here, may it be a match-up debate or a simple question from a lurker. Regardless though, here are some threads that my better suit your point of interest:

• The Peach Q & A Thread
• Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion
• Peach Critique Thread
• Peach Social Discussion

This thread is a split from the social discussion, which initially contained the GD. Starting below is a small project based off this following quote.

I just thought of an idea for the reasearch threads. Search through the Peach Social Thread archives and record any useful post.

 

[deepseadiva]

Reserving for my own quotes. Expect a lot of Hotgarbage, Praxis, and Niko.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

**** yea I'm Brock

...

That means I use crappy Rock type Pokemon and get beaten up by women D:

I'll look for stuff when I get home

 

[Razmakazi]

oh no dude, I reaaaally disagree with this one. that's just tooooo much work and it's so tedious. the GD is huuuge. don't put yourself through that hahahaha

 

[hotgarbage]

Well, to give you a little bit of a break here I briefly went through my posting history:

Time for some FuN fAcTs

Peach can get a ground-floated fair and a regrab off on squirtle out of grab release. They both require very strict timing though. Oh, and she can also connect with a dash attack, but that's obvious. I'll detail the steps on how to land the fair as it's somewhat tricky:
- jam the control stick diagonal down to start a dash after release
- dash for as little time as possible, the purpose of it is to give your jumping animation momentum, not to actually cover ground with the dash
- jump, start a float, and immediately fair, all while holding the control stick diagonal down (doing so allows you to do all these things)
- squirtle eat crown omnomnomnom
- if you're grab releasing off the stage it's done is the same manner, but you have to release your float once off stage. Also the timing is even more strict, and by that I mean you have no room for error assuming squirtle airdodges :V. He'll be in pretty bad position after the ad though, so it's not a complete loss.


It would take a quite bit of practice to get this down (typical of peach lol), but regrab across the stage -> fair is p cool if PT is giving you hell for some reason.

Random junk:

Fresh dair on a 0% MK gives you a +19 adv. If you land and autocancel her dair perfectly it goes as high as +22. Not ground breaking yeah, but I just found it interesting; I didn't know the adv was that significant.


I looked into dtilt a bit and was rather excited at first, thinking that it yielded a +19 adv on 0% MK. Then I remembered that Brawl is ******** and hits that have enough knockback to be DI'd (read: dtilt) can also be gotten out of stupid early by attacking/airdodging. So your +19 adv goes to -1 if your opponent airdodges and +10 if he/she attacks. Still good; you can hit them when they land after the AD; but not "guaranteed double nair" good.

A bit more about uairrrrrrr

It apparenlty has low base knockback and high/decent knockback growth (common knowledge for some of you I'm sure). Meaning that it sends your opponent nowhere at low percents and can be a kill move at high percents. Which IN TURN means that at low percents it deals out knockback that cannot be DI'd, i.e. knockback that actually has some decent hitstun behind it. Here's a brief look at the adv a ground floated uair -> land will give you:

Against MK:
0%: +4
5%: +5
10%: +9
14%: +11
16%: +12 <-uair lock thing is now guaranteed if you're frame perfect
.....
36: +20


When MK reaches 37% a fresh uair will result in DIable knockback, thus ruining the setup. Against Snake's fat *** this marker is 47%. If your uair is stale these percents will obviously be higher.


So what does all this crap mean? Basically if you hit with a ground floated uair 10%-36% against MK (for instance) you get a free follow-up. Probably another uair.

The more you know~

*comes out of nowhere*

DID EWE KNOW?

If you delay the second hit of your jab so that it connects when your opponent just touches the ground it'll send them further than usual and at a nasty angle; useful for getting folks off the stage.


In other news I've been looking into peach's uair string a bit and the results have been pretty neat. Peach has a 28%-95% combo on snake for instance. I'll probably end up making a thread when I've looked into it some more (no guarantees as to when this will be).

.... Also a random note: when done properly you have a usable 21 frames of invincibility after a ledge-let-go. Combine this with peach's ability to grab the ledge exactly when she wishes to and you've got a very deadly combination that I have yet to see peaches truly take advantage of. I imagine this could really wreck some character's recoveries.....

yerp derp

 

[deepseadiva]

oh no dude, I reaaaally disagree with this one. that's just tooooo much work and it's so tedious. the GD is huuuge. don't put yourself through that hahahaha

wut

No, it's really not hard at all. Just randomly search through the thread, find a good discussion/post and quote it. :/

It's not like we're trying to find everything - just anything we can come across. Regardless, it's much better than ignoring everything anyway.

 

[Airgemini]

Diglett and Dugtrio = Peach Board Readers
Emo Bearded Guy = Dark
Pikachu = Meno
Misty, Ash, Brock = Air, Edreese, and Rickerdy

**** yeah Misty!
I don't get why you picked us three and Dark for those certain categories though....

The GD is so ****ing big.
There's a lot of funny and cool **** in there though.
Once something pops into my head, I'll search for it.

 

[Xyless]

end thread

 

[mountain_tiger]

At the risk of looking conceited I'm going to post some quotes by myself from the GD, involving the Bair and Nair lock (in fact, I think Yaay made a thread about it a while ago...)

Hey guys. While I was trying to find a set-up for the Bair lock (which turned out to be known already ), a thought came to my head.

Surely the Nair lock is better? I mean, it has the same jab lock properties as Bair, but the sourspot comes out faster AND does more damage. So therefore, why don't we use Nair to do the lock instead of Bair?

Better yet, you could use Nair until it got stale enough to cause less than 8% damage (which I would imagine is 3 or so Nairs), and then supplement with Bair a couple of times, then switch back again for maximum damage?

It could rack up a fair bit more damage this way...

I tested this out to see. The sweetspot of the move (i.e. the hitbox that comes out first) is indeed too strong to follow-up with another Nair reliably. And if you hit with an Nair sweetspot after they've already been jab locked at least once, they get forced back up again (why this happens I don't know). However, the 10% hitbox IS weak enough for the opponent to be close enough to follow-up with another Nair (well, it is on heavyweights anyway. I haven't tested it on light characters yet....). According to hotgarbage's frame data thread, the weak hitbox of Nair first appears on frame 7, whereas the weak hitbox of Bair first appears on frame 9, two frames later. On the other hand, Nair does have an extra two frames of landing lag when you cancel it, so in a sense it basically balances out between them. Spacing yourself in such a way that the weak hitbox of Nair always hits is, realistically, no more difficult than spacing Bair correctly.

This can add up in terms of damage, now let's say for example that you manage to get in 7 Bairs for the Bair lock. Total damage for that would be 42.4%. The combination of Nairs and Bairs that gets the most damage in total would be this (again, using lucky 7 to illustrate):

Nair -> Nair -> Nair -> Bair -> Nair -> Bair -> Nair

Total damage here is 58.58%. That means that the amount of damage you achieved has increased by over 16%, and every little helps, right? (BTW, all of the above assumes that Bair and Nair are totally fresh when you start the lock)

I can't believe I actually bothered to work all this out...

Actually, it doesn't work out quite as well as I thought it would. Although the first Nair to hit can be the 10% hitbox, all Nairs afetr that have to be the 9% hitbox, otherwise they get up straight away. That reduces the toal damage listed in the previous post down to 55.34%, though that's still a pretty respectable amount of damage overall.

The timing for this is realistically no more difficult than with the Bair lock. Simply start the Nair, and as soon as you see her twirl, move forward. I've tested this on Bowser and Jigglypuff, and i's worked on both of them, so hopefully it should work on everyone inbetween.

If you think about it, this could be massive. Think about it. As long as you have a turnip in your hand, you can punish almost any mistake by starting off the Nair/Bair lock (look for my thread called 'Potentially new Bair lock set-up inside').

See, here's how it would pan out. Let's say that you're playing Dedede, and he whiffs an attack. As long as you have a turnip in hand, you can Z-drop to footstool, and then you can keep Nair/Bair locking him until he reaches the edge. And then, since he's forced to get-up, you can charge up a USmash until he decides to get-up, and then release it.

Now, USmash can hit a good deal of standing characters, but for some smaller characters it can't (e.g. Kirby and Meta Knight). No problem: simpyl use FSmash instead. Just about every character too small to be hit by USmash will die at early percents from FSmash, and don't forget that they'll be directly on the edge. You can get rid of the frying pan beforehand, and then space for the tennis racket sweetspot. Even if you get the golf club, it'd still be good knockback. All you need to do is predict when they get up.

Theoretically, this means that you can take basically any character from 30-40% or so to death. Of course, all of this requires a great deal of practice, but then so did Fox's waveshine infinites in Melee. I think it could be very promising.

It's very, very situational, true. But if you have a turnip in your hand and you're reasonably close by, it's a fantastic punishing tool. A bit like the ICs chaingrab, except flashier.

 

[deepseadiva]

I rite.

I forgot about this.

Bthrow fresh decays at 11%, 10%, 9%. After you use Bthrow once you get equal damage with Fthrow next time you use it.

Checking Bthrow's freshness with more mores placed inbetween the first and 2nd usage.

Sorry but Peach beats Lucas even on Brinstar =P Just don't approach from the stage, stay under the stage, and approach with up airs from under the stage. Lucas has no trouble killing so refreshing his moves doesn't help him nearly as much as it helps you either. Also his biggest advantage on Peach, being able to play keep with with PK fires and such, is taken away because she can approach from over or under the stage. You can literally refresh your entire movesest without taking damage by ledge camping for awhile (ledge camp and attack the peice that connects 2 parts of the stage, it will take several up airs before it breaks, then u can up air the 2 end pieces of the stage) Peach can refresh all her moveset while camping under the stage, making her a beast at killing on this stage.

Then, when the fire is coming up, this is when you do most of your fighting. Having a float is a huge advantage because everyone else is forced to fight only in certain areas since the fire is in the way, but Peach can mix it up - Lucas becomes predictable, but you don't. He has plenty of buffs on this stage, but IMO I'd rather fight him here than a nuetral.

SH Bair.

Peach's back air kills every non purple pikmin it touches, for the entire duration, and autocancels so you can do it again. If you sweetspot the bair it'll still kill the purples.

Purples are her bane

Basically, approach with SH back air. It destroys his camp game. Then change it up when you get in close. You can pressure his shield with dair and back up and he can't really punish it. You can also Peach bomber pikmin if you feel pressured (Peach bomber bounces you up and away to safety).


Olimar kills Peach way faster...it's almost like MK vs Ice Climbers in a way... Olimar punishes way harder, but Peach has the superior options to allow her to not mess up.

Get Olimar offstage, throw a turnip at him, uthrow a turnip off the ledge, then float against the ledge. The first turnip makes him waste his second jump to avoid. You can release the float right as he up-B's to edgehog him, and if you mess up, the turnip you uthrow'd will knock him off of his tether. xD

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7773972&postcount=8 is where I posted about it, and Ankoku revealed in more detail where bair, nair, and fair works. He helped me figure out this stuff, which I use against Meta players when I get the chance. Even weak turnips work from this angle, too, when you aim for the diagonals of MK's tornadoes. Dair can work a little more to the center, even the weaker hits.

I think the tornado's hitbox is like this...

\- -/
\ /
\/
(of course, SWF ruins this diagram, but you should know what I'm aiming for)

... and the diagonals are VERY weak and able to be broken through. Experiment with the spacing to find the sweetspot for Peach and you won't have to worry AS much about tornadoes.

As I said in that thread, if MK's tornado is touching the ground, Toad and ftilt will break through. If a tornado is coming up at you, dtilt at an angle and ftilt and dsmash can break him out of the tornado and HIT. We all know about utilt, too, and fsmash.

So, really, it's looking more and more like staying in your shield is the LAST thing you want to do about a tornado, and it won't matter too much about turnip pulling because of our ability to float. And I know that it helps to have the strong hit come out, but that's because it moves Peach's body quickly into the vulnerable areas, not because of the strength of the move. The weak turnips breaking him out of it proves this, methinks.

So like in that pch viability thread Edrees mentioned that we might have to find ways to get earlier kills with pch so...

how about instead of fthrow at the edge, we all start toying with grab releasing or pummel releasing ppl more? fthrow ends up being di'd and we can do pretty good damage and probably hit with utilt or at least a sourspot usmash after they get barraged with up thrown turnips but perhaps we could gimp ppl better if we make them recover lower.

like...if they air release we could try to fair them. if they don't have the presence of mind to jump outta the way then they'll probably die. if they pummel/ground release the opponent is probably in a better position to get turnip gimped or bair stagespiked or some kind of stock-threatening edgeguard depending on the character.

just throwin' out ideas I guess since I never rly try to come up with anything new. I usually just steal ideas from everyone else lol.

Then it's not infinite >:C
We should call it Not-Infinite Float Dair Thing

Why is everyone ignoring my Nair/Bair lock theory stuff?

Because it's not infinite.

I do this all the time. It's great.

Works wonderfully on Wario, Kirby, MK, and Dedede. And believe it or not, I've done it to a Falco.

Kirby has no reliable approach. You very feasibly CAN run the timer out if he's being campy too. This happened with me and Dojo.

Wario I time out all the time with bair camping.

Dedede can't really get past turnip camping well, so I'm willing to time him out if he won't approach.

MK, I rarely ever actually time out, but the idea is to play him with the mentality that you're going to right from the start. If he won't approach you, great, let the time run. Try to hold out your lead as if the timer was about to go off. Eventually you'll kill him as he rushes you down to try to hit you. Play super gay.





Falco...this is a hard one, but...if you have a stock lead, you can fullhop a float. It'll be right over his short hop laser range So, he'll have to fullhop to hit you. When he fullhops, you fastfall to the ground. You can just kinda keep doing this for a couple minutes until he tries to get to you. xD

Also this is still directed to the people I aimed it to below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNB1EUJg1-w

I dedicate that video to Slik, Edrees, Sky, and Praxis and all the Peaches who at some point fault in there undeniable belief that Peach is nothing but top tier.

 

[Morrigan]

This thread is really useful, but it shouldn't even exist if people used the other thread just for its real and only purpose: OFFTOPIC. Meno you should emphasize that in its OP.
Isn't there a General (not offtopic) thread?

 

[deepseadiva]

Yes, Dekuu! This one now.

I didn't wanna make a new thread, and since this one has a bunch of great info from the SD, might as well use this as a catalyst. So here we go.

Discuss.

 

[Metatitan]

Uh sure why not. When getting comboed I prefer to use Uair to break out instead of Nair. On stage it can combo into up tilt or another Uair (so basically combo them out of their combo) or off stage where it has less ending lag than Nair (so if they bait it they have less of a window to punish you for it). I combo break with Nair generally if I need the angle from it.

 

[lloDownedu74]

I think this has been mentioned before, but KB asked me about it at Pound 4, so I wasn't sure if all of you know about this. When glide tossing forward, you slide a long distance. But when glide tossing backwards, you only slide a little bit. It is possible to glide toss backwards the same distance as forwards.

To glide toss backwards, you basically turn around and then glide toss forwards really quickly. So lets say youre facing right. Pull a turnip, press left, shield, left, and then right on the C-stick. You should glide toss backwards farther than you normally slide, throwing the turnip in front of you.

This is really helpful for running away and camping, and also baiting/approaching. For example, you can hit your opponent, glide toss away (while throwing a turnip at them), glide toss forward (while throwing a turnip at them), and then hit them again.

Hope this helps :D

 

[Corrupted]

3 frame move vs 8 frame move is pretty significant. uairs horizontal hitbox is small too.

 

[r3d d09]

What's some combo strings? i wasn't here when they were discussed so i don't know what time period to look for.

 

[Praxis]

I am going to bring about a golden age of Peach. >-)

 

[r3d d09]

Do it Praxis :D

 

[Morrigan]

I am going to bring about a golden age of Peach. >-)

Did you discover a 0 KO with Toad?

 

[hotgarbage]

Did you discover a 0 KO with Toad?

loooool

Also this thread is great :D. I'll be using this a lot in the future~

 

[r3d d09]

uh... i had the idea manny, not who ever you said >.>

 

[deepseadiva]

K, I updated the OP with credit then.

Also, Colorado is hosting a HUGE regional tournament this weekend - we've got Kansas, New Mexico, and Las Vegas coming, so there's gonna be some good competition there. I'm gonna try to get on the livestream often enough, and if Light shows up (he lives in Colorado now) I'll make him get on too.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/fighter-frenzy

Watch on Saturday. :D :D :D

Oh, I also plan on making a very thorough AT thread sometime in the near future. So yea.

 

[r3d d09]

sweet :D, i'm sad that utah couldn't go :/ make me happy bro <3

-ps. i really do have hoe powers >.> don't make me use them people...

 

[hotgarbage]

hrmmmm I don't have complete info on this yet, but I guess I should post it here anyways as it's pretty important.
Basically momentum canceling with a turnip throw isn't that great. I don't have the numbers due to a HD crash but I still remember the jist of things:

- when hit towards the corner from the close edge or middle of FD momentum canceling with a turnip is pretty bad. For the former case the effect is pretty ridiculous; like reducing survivability by ~10% iirc. Some of this may be due to the fact that you can't fastfall during turnip throw. I wonder if it actually gives you an upward boost considering how profound the effect was.

- If you DI poorly momentum canceling via turnip throw helps a bit. IIRC it improves survivability from the middle of FD by ~4%. I can't remember if it helps from the close edge.


So yeah. TL;DR: momentum canceling via turnip throw increases horizontal survivability a bit but decreases vertical survivability by a non-trivial margin. If you aim for a corner it will end up hurting you. .....Now that I think about it maybe purposely DIing below the corner and then doing the turnip momentum cancel would be optimal? Dunno lol. That probably wouldn't be practical anyways.


/rambling

 

[Eddie G]

I think this has been mentioned before, but KB asked me about it at Pound 4, so I wasn't sure if all of you know about this. When glide tossing forward, you slide a long distance. But when glide tossing backwards, you only slide a little bit. It is possible to glide toss backwards the same distance as forwards.

To glide toss backwards, you basically turn around and then glide toss forwards really quickly. So lets say youre facing right. Pull a turnip, press left, shield, left, and then right on the C-stick. You should glide toss backwards farther than you normally slide, throwing the turnip in front of you.

This is really helpful for running away and camping, and also baiting/approaching. For example, you can hit your opponent, glide toss away (while throwing a turnip at them), glide toss forward (while throwing a turnip at them), and then hit them again.

Hope this helps :D

Yeah this helps a lot. I just sat sown and started to practice this, and got it down in 5 minutes. This should help my game out a lot. Thanks LLOD.

Now to get in the habit of a quick float nair OoS like Excel does. It's not necessarily "OoS" in the sense that it uses a jump OoS, but more like an immediate jump/float to nair as soon as her shield drops. From what I've picked up, the timing is a little strict and will take some getting used to, but it's VERY reliable as a gtfo move when under shield pressure.

I WILL make sure I get the MK matchup down to a T. That's the only thing holding me back from placing even higher.

 

[Praxis]

You guys just figured that out that you can do glide tosses out of pivots?? >_>

I do forwards reverse glide tosses out of pivots all the time. I like to tell people that the acronym is RARFRGT; Reverse Aerial Rush Forwards Reverse Glide Toss. xD


It actually is a very big deal against G&W.


Man, MK just...clicked overnight for me. I looooove fighting him now. :D He's the next G&W for me :D

 

[Eddie G]

Yeah I kind of ditched the idea of learning it when bonewalking came around for some reason. Now that I got it down as well as a million pointers from Dark and MK users alike at Pound, it's time to take my run against the MU. xD

Have you ever heard of the God Kais crew, Praxis?

 

[r3d d09]

pivot tosses >.> it's easily readable. it's like peaches that just glide toss right after they pull a turnip. I lol.

 

[Xyless]

You guys just figured that out that you can do glide tosses out of pivots?? >_>

I do forwards reverse glide tosses out of pivots all the time. I like to tell people that the acronym is RARFRGT; Reverse Aerial Rush Forwards Reverse Glide Toss. xD


It actually is a very big deal against G&W.


Man, MK just...clicked overnight for me. I looooove fighting him now. :D He's the next G&W for me :D

I didn't even think about doing that until JLo (gantrain) was doing it at a tourney I went to. I was just like OHHHH THAT'S how you can do it backward! Was just a major "doyyyy" moment for me.

And I'm glad you figured out MK (and shared some ideas).

 

[Corrupted]

Now to get in the habit of a quick float nair OoS like Excel does. It's not necessarily "OoS" in the sense that it uses a jump OoS, but more like an immediate jump/float to nair as soon as her shield drops. From what I've picked up, the timing is a little strict and will take some getting used to, but it's VERY reliable as a gtfo move when under shield pressure.

You can't buffer the nair after the ground float thats why its tricky. Sometimes i don't snap back the control stick which leads to a ground float dair..

 

[White-Peach]

You can't buffer the nair after the ground float thats why its tricky. Sometimes i don't snap back the control stick which leads to a ground float dair..

If you were a melee peach this was a big thing back in the day. Fast NAirs on the ground in melee didnt transfer over to brawl, you had to slow it down. I remember trying so hard to insta-NAir and never getting it to work and wondering what I was doing wrong ;P But doing the jump NAir is easy, you just press them at almost the same time with jump slightly earlier. It slips into muscle memory and you're golden~

 

[r3d d09]

I do OoS Nairs. it's awesome.

 

[hiROI]

So I'm going to money match Nick.Riddle soon at a tourney, may I have tips on ZSS please? =^^=

Meno made me put it here ;(

 

[r3d d09]

ha hiroi got boned. lets talk about tactical ways of him getting boned more and better

 

[Xyless]

It's amazing how few Dededes know about Peach's CG on him. Also, I practiced the uair string today. I suck at it (getting better), and don't know what %'s to start it. :\

 

[Akariss]

I've had a few issues lately on a few certain match-ups that I need some general point of view from anyone that's willing to provide input.

ROB - His camping gets to me, I CPed Frigate and did far better on it than I did on a Neutral (Yoshi's Island).
I need some advice on getting through the tops/lasers (aerial or ground) however you guys do it.

Diddy - Bananas do become an issue sometimes, but what really works on me is SH banana throws while I float to get past the ground bananas. (Didn't know about ground float banana pick-ups, till I looked into this myself)

Generally looking into personal opinions on how you guys approach these certain match-ups and no I'm not looking for ratios, looking for approaches/defensive options against these guys in particular with my descriptions in mind.

kthx

 

[_Keno_]

It's amazing how few Dededes know about Peach's CG on him.

Do we? Down-throw during what %s.

 

[Airgemini]

With the Diddy thing perhaps you could time an aerial or airdodge out of Float to catch the banana.

 

[Akariss]

Air Dodge

3-29 / 39 Metaknight
4-29 / 39 Zero Suit Samus
4-29 / 39 Diddy
4-29 / 39 Pit
4-29 / 39 Squirtle
4-29 / 39 Ivysaur
4-29 / 39 Charizard
4-29 / 39 Ike
4-29 / 39 Snake
4-29 / 39 King Dedede
4-29 / 39 Lucario
4-29 / 39 Wario
4-29 / 39 R.O.B
4-29 / 39 Olimar

4-29 / 48 Ice Climbers
4-29 / 48 Ness
4-29 / 48 Sonic
4-29 / 48 Lucas

4-30 / 49 Bowser
4-29 / 49 Mario
4-29 / 49 Donkey Kong
4-29 / 49 Link
4-29 / 49 Samus
4-29 / 49 Kirby
4-29 / 49 Fox
4-29 / 49 Pikachu
4-29 / 49 G&W
4-29 / 49 Luigi
4-29 / 49 Zelda
4-29 / 49 Sheik
4-29 / 49 Falco
4-29 / 49 Yoshi
4-29 / 49 Ganondorf
4-29 / 49 Wolf
4-29 / 49 Toon Link
4-29 / 49 Captain Falcon
4-29 / 49 Jigglypuff

5-30 / 49 Marth
4-19 / 49 Peach <- WTF r u srs?

Makes me want to cry whenever I have to air dodge for any reason, and as shown from my quote, it is VERY EASY to punish Peach's air dodge.

Honestly this was like a slap in the !@#s by Sakurai, give us a great air game and then screw us with that.

But ya air dodging to catching a banana, is something I'll try a few times at least for the benefit of the doubt .

 

[Razmakazi]

u cud just z catch w/o the airdodge lol...

just tap z, no airdodge.