Pictochat

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Part of being good and playing this game is stage knowledge. You shouldn't be going to a tournament and have never been playing on Picto or preparing for possible hazards. Especially if you are a higher level player.

You should know how many transitions there are and the time frame they change on. They may be random but there is a certain spot on the stage you are unaffected. If you care enough about this stage, ban it. Or learn how to use it to your advantage. This stage is completely fine and usable by either party in this match.

If your argument is "But my character does bad on this stage", well either:
A) you should have banned that stage in the first place if you feared they were going to counterpick you there or you knew youre not good on there
or
B) Pick a different character.

Playing at a higher level people need to stop having johns for stages. Learn them. That's part of the game.

Just get better.

 

[sunshade]

And a particular gust of wind can completely change the score in a golf game. The game would arguably be better if it could be played indoors.

Don't get me started on (American) football. That particular game has some seriously anti-competition rules, such as sudden death OT where the possession is decided by a coin flip.

You are right. It would arguably be better, however the cost of removing the outdoor element is a vast reduction in playability and practicality for the game.

Smash is similar in that there is some depth added by having multiple stages including those with random elements. I won't harp the idea that having a liberal stage list will add an ungodly amount of depth like BPC does, but there is no reason to remove stages with an acceptable amount of randomness. Removing them does not bring us more than is lost by banning them.

I will agree that pictochat goes out of line by having hazards without a schedule that can very easily make or break the game, and I will say the same for wario ware and green greens. Stages with timers on their hazards and massive amounts of warning however are not inherently bad for competition they are simply a part of it that both you and I happen to dislike. This dislike however is not a justifiable reason to ban the stages (although it is encouragement to learn how to make games and create games without these silly issues at hand).

Can you prove that the better golfer / team / player wins 100% of the time given RNG? Can you prove who is better? If Ally and M2K played a match on Delfino would you argue that the same player would win given a different transformation set?.

No I can't. Can you prove when the RNG has caused the lesser player/team to win?

If Ally and M2K played 100 rounds then the impact of the transformations would be exceedingly minor if not virtually nonexistent. Even if you compared the best case scenario for M2K to the best case scenario for Ally there would not be massive differences and certainly not large enough differences to ban the stage (or stages with similar levels of randomness for that matter).

Part of being good and playing this game is stage knowledge. You shouldn't be going to a tournament and have never been playing on Picto or preparing for possible hazards. Especially if you are a higher level player.

You should know how many transitions there are and the time frame they change on. They may be random but there is a certain spot on the stage you are unaffected. If you care enough about this stage, ban it. Or learn how to use it to your advantage. This stage is completely fine and usable by either party in this match.

If your argument is "But my character does bad on this stage", well either:
A) you should have banned that stage in the first place if you feared they were going to counterpick you there or you knew youre not good on there
or
B) Pick a different character.

Playing at a higher level people need to stop having johns for stages. Learn them. That's part of the game.

Just get better.

The issues here is not character balance on pictochat but the transformations that regardless of player ability cannot be reacted to. The line being the biggest offender.

 

[fkacyan]

No I can't. Can you prove when the RNG has caused the lesser player/team to win?

That's not how statistics works. All that has to be proven is that the possibility exists, and if that possibility exists, then the statistical test is more or less moot.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Part of being good and playing this game is stage knowledge. You shouldn't be going to a tournament and have never been playing on Picto or preparing for possible hazards. Especially if you are a higher level player.

You should know how many transitions there are and the time frame they change on. They may be random but there is a certain spot on the stage you are unaffected. If you care enough about this stage, ban it. Or learn how to use it to your advantage. This stage is completely fine and usable by either party in this match.

If your argument is "But my character does bad on this stage", well either:
A) you should have banned that stage in the first place if you feared they were going to counterpick you there or you knew youre not good on there
or
B) Pick a different character.

Playing at a higher level people need to stop having johns for stages. Learn them. That's part of the game.

Just get better.

You are completely missing the point. Would you play a tournament match on Warioware?

 

[ぱみゅ]

"Acceptable" is subjective, and leads to a never-ending debate. I started using "avoidable" as a randomness legality basis.
Baically, every random/hazardous element that can be avoided is legit.

In Brawl, pretty much everything but WarioWare's after-minigame Judgement can be avoided, so it should be legit. Opponent interaction may difficult it, but that's because both are playing on the stage and using its features, and there's nothing wrong with it.
If you think Picto is a problem, just learn to avoid being affected by certain transformations, and to use other certain ones on your favor.
It just takes some few care to do it.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

You are completely missing the point. Would you play a tournament match on Warioware?

No? What point am i missing? The random effects? I thought i read the majority of this thread and the argument was about this stage's random effects and how it alters people gameplay, approaches, and so forth.

 

[T-block]

BPC, when I support Pictochat, I am, on the fundamental level, using that criteria which you stated: the better player still wins on this stage some x% of the time, with x sufficiently large.

Obviously I have no way of proving it, but I truly believe that Pictochat adds an acceptable amount of variance to the outcomes of matches. To use numbers as illustration, if there were a 10% chance of the "worse" player winning on Yoshi's Island, there would be an 11% chance of him winning on Pictochat, not 30%.

 

[sunshade]

That's not how statistics works. All that has to be proven is that the possibility exists, and if that possibility exists, then the statistical test is more or less moot.

I concede on the point in that sentence.

Do you have input or resposnse on any of the rest of the post or are we in general agreement?

"Acceptable" is subjective, and leads to a never-ending debate. I started using "avoidable" as a randomness legality basis.
Baically, every random/hazardous element that can be avoided is legit.

In Brawl, pretty much everything but WarioWare's after-minigame Judgement can be avoided, so it should be legit. Opponent interaction may difficult it, but that's because both are playing on the stage and using its features, and there's nothing wrong with it.
If you think Picto is a problem, just learn to avoid being affected by certain transformations, and to use other certain ones on your favor.
It just takes some few care to do it.

Your standard of avoidable is equally subjective. I used the word acceptable and then continued on the say that if it is avoidable (due to large notice or a set pattern) then it is acceptable.

At this point since we understand that either school of thought is equally non objective we need to move onto the positive and negative ramifications a specific option presents. From there we need to work towards find out what option is to be selected.

 

[Judo777]

@thio your a constant reminder why anybody who repeatedly uses the term strawman is somebody who can't be reasoned with simply because they love arguing for argument sake.

Random factors aren't necessarily bad. Random factors that aren't reasonably controlled are a problem. Peach, D3, and GW's random factors aren't a problem in anyway nor is luigis. They simply have a move that lets them "roll the dice." Its not like 9 hammers randomly pop out when not even the GW expects it. They simply have moves that they are willing to take a risk on getting something that is otherwise bad at the risk of getting something good. This exact sort of thing happens all the time at high levels of play. People aren't ALWAYS predicting the other player. Many times they throw out moves HOPING their opponent will run into it. Its just another calculated risk.

Picto chat only has 4 problematic hazards. The spike arrows upward that are very powerful, the picasso line, the mine cart (which you shouldnt be getting hit with simply because im pretty sure the cart appears last), and the piranha plant. But picto chat does draw new tings on aI believe an exact schedule. If not then its close. Either way its as simple as keeping track of how ling since the last transformation and maintaining ur ground when they do pop up.

 

[Orion*]

Judo the stage is completely random-

Lose money to randomness, then you will reconsider. This game already has enough problems- there's no issue w/ trying to remove them to make it more competitive.

@BPC it doesnt matter in lets say, snake vs mk if you get warning or not sometimes on delfino. I know the stage well enough im already on my way to ground and I get a free juggle // absolute stage control on a lot of transformations. It's a pretty gay stage. Still my favorite though

@Thio i<3u but chill LOL

 

[Ghostbone]

Picto chat only has 4 problematic hazards. The spike arrows upward that are very powerful, the picasso line, the mine cart (which you shouldnt be getting hit with simply because im pretty sure the cart appears last), and the piranha plant. But picto chat does draw new tings on aI believe an exact schedule. If not then its close. Either way its as simple as keeping track of how ling since the last transformation and maintaining ur ground when they do pop up.

Is has way more problematic hazards....

Say you're D3 and you've been hit upwards and almost died, the transformation with the two fire balls floating in the air appears. (the time between drawings is completely random, there is no schedule, you can have anything from like 5 seconds to 20 between them, and many of them last for a random amount of time)
His options are now severely limited, and he is likely to get punished a lot harder than would have been otherwise.

In another scenario instead the Picasso line appears, now D3 is pretty much completely safe.

There's also the spikes on the side of the stage, I remember from one of my matches (this is pretty much what tipped me over into wanting the stage banned) I f-smashed a MK with Diddy, then as he was flying away the spikes on the side of the stage appeared and spiked him straight down. (The drawing hadn't even finished drawing at that point...)
The match was also filled with random drawings stalling the match for a long time each, allowing me to pull out bananas and get a better positioning.

It's not simple at all to keep track of the drawings and avoid them all, especially when many don't provide any warning at all. (some have like a 1 second drawing time...OTHERS HAVE THE EFFECTS BEGIN BEFORE THEY'RE DRAWN)

 

[Tesh]

Its a bit narrowminded to assume that only 4 of the drawing can have a significant effect on a match. Alot of things can go wrong with ANY effect that pops up without warning. Apply it to anything remotely dynamic in the game, and it would clearly be banned. Pictochat is random and has far less warning than 99% of legal stage effects.

 

[fkacyan]

@thio your a constant reminder why anybody who repeatedly uses the term strawman is somebody who can't be reasoned with simply because they love arguing for argument sake.

Random factors aren't necessarily bad. Random factors that aren't reasonably controlled are a problem. Peach, D3, and GW's random factors aren't a problem in anyway nor is luigis. They simply have a move that lets them "roll the dice." Its not like 9 hammers randomly pop out when not even the GW expects it. They simply have moves that they are willing to take a risk on getting something that is otherwise bad at the risk of getting something good. This exact sort of thing happens all the time at high levels of play. People aren't ALWAYS predicting the other player. Many times they throw out moves HOPING their opponent will run into it. Its just another calculated risk.

Picto chat only has 4 problematic hazards. The spike arrows upward that are very powerful, the picasso line, the mine cart (which you shouldnt be getting hit with simply because im pretty sure the cart appears last), and the piranha plant. But picto chat does draw new tings on aI believe an exact schedule. If not then its close. Either way its as simple as keeping track of how ling since the last transformation and maintaining ur ground when they do pop up.

T-block has proven that Pictochat's time between transformations and which order they appear in is completely random.

The idea of losing money because a GnW pulled a 9 instead of a 1 is ludicrous, which is probably why I refuse to pay money to play this (except at gamingworld lol). If that's what this community truly considers "high level play", then the community is a huge joke.

I don't think you know what a strawman is, by the way. EDIT: Wait, what? I haven't used the word strawman once in this thread. @_@

@Sunshade: I'm mostly speaking in terms of ideals. Frigate, Halberd, and Delfino are all examples of stages that are essentially fine by me (Halberd sticks out as a stage that is potentially problematic but you can just ban it). The idea is to establish the point that randomness in competition is at base unacceptable, that it should be eliminated where possible, and that there is no evidence to suggest that randomness is not non-competitive.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If G&W hits you with a 1, he's gonna get killed.

 

[Tesh]

I agree that GnW 9 is pretty stupid. I'm glad he is a meh character and the hitbox is small. I can imagine it would piss people off if a top tier had a random instant kill move.

Why would he get killed Ryu? It does 12 damage to himself and then u get a free hit most likely, but if you were both at low percents, the odds are way in his favor. Hell even if he is at high percents, its pretty much the same risk reward as walkoff camping.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If he does it when he himself is at higher % he can be killed, also like you said it does 12% and you get free hits afterwords, is it dumb if he hits you with it? Yeah, but he needs a seriously read and then luck after that point which makes it acceptable.

 

[Judo777]

T-block has proven that Pictochat's time between transformations and which order they appear in is completely random.

The idea of losing money because a GnW pulled a 9 instead of a 1 is ludicrous, which is probably why I refuse to pay money to play this (except at gamingworld lol). If that's what this community truly considers "high level play", then the community is a huge joke.

I don't think you know what a strawman is, by the way. EDIT: Wait, what? I haven't used the word strawman once in this thread. @_@

@Sunshade: I'm mostly speaking in terms of ideals. Frigate, Halberd, and Delfino are all examples of stages that are essentially fine by me (Halberd sticks out as a stage that is potentially problematic but you can just ban it). The idea is to establish the point that randomness in competition is at base unacceptable, that it should be eliminated where possible, and that there is no evidence to suggest that randomness is not non-competitive.

No but the last time i saw you in a thread you probably said it about 20+ times. Btw i have lost money more times that i can count to randomness. And sry if you get mad because a GW pulled a 9 and not a one but why the hell did you get hit with a hammer? That move is slow as piss. If you get read on a tech chase you deserved to be punished. Accept the fact that everytime you get hit by the move he has 1 in 7 chance to 9 hammer you. And like red ryu said its a risk. He has equally good chances he will get a 1 waste a punish and take an fsmash to the face.

And actually the 4 hazards i said are the only real problematic ones. The fireballs???? really??? The fireballs are one of the BEST hazards to have if ur being juggled. They deal 1% and let you DI which ever way you want. Its literally a get out of jail free card. The ones i listed are the only ones that can kill you and they can all be avoided by standing on the ground on the left half of the stage. Everything else in the stage has set knockback, sure it tacks on free damage but it also ends juggles half the time. I think its a fair trade. And why are you in the air? Stay grounded its a grounded stage.

 

[infiniteV115]

Its literally a get out of jail free card.

No it isn't.

 

[Ghostbone]

And actually the 4 hazards i said are the only real problematic ones. The fireballs???? really??? The fireballs are one of the BEST hazards to have if ur being juggled. They deal 1% and let you DI which ever way you want. Its literally a get out of jail free card. The ones i listed are the only ones that can kill you and they can all be avoided by standing on the ground on the left half of the stage. Everything else in the stage has set knockback, sure it tacks on free damage but it also ends juggles half the time. I think its a fair trade. And why are you in the air? Stay grounded its a grounded stage.

No they're not, pretty much all of them can be problematic in certain situations.

And if I'm not mistaken one fireball hits you into the other...so the only way to DI out is back up....which doesn't help at all.

It seems like you're basing everything off the fact that nobody should get hit.
That just doesn't happen, and people shouldn't be randomly rewarded whenever they hit the opponent....

 

[Judo777]

No they're not, pretty much all of them can be problematic in certain situations.

And if I'm not mistaken one fireball hits you into the other...so the only way to DI out is back up....which doesn't help at all.

It seems like you're basing everything off the fact that nobody should get hit.
That just doesn't happen, and people shouldn't be randomly rewarded whenever they hit the opponent....

No you can DI one and not get hit by the other. But even if you DI the first one wrong, you can DI the second right and take.............2%.

 

[fkacyan]

No but the last time i saw you in a thread you probably said it about 20+ times. Btw i have lost money more times that i can count to randomness. And sry if you get mad because a GW pulled a 9 and not a one but why the hell did you get hit with a hammer? That move is slow as piss. If you get read on a tech chase you deserved to be punished. Accept the fact that everytime you get hit by the move he has 1 in 7 chance to 9 hammer you. And like red ryu said its a risk. He has equally good chances he will get a 1 waste a punish and take an fsmash to the face.

And actually the 4 hazards i said are the only real problematic ones. The fireballs???? really??? The fireballs are one of the BEST hazards to have if ur being juggled. They deal 1% and let you DI which ever way you want. Its literally a get out of jail free card. The ones i listed are the only ones that can kill you and they can all be avoided by standing on the ground on the left half of the stage. Everything else in the stage has set knockback, sure it tacks on free damage but it also ends juggles half the time. I think its a fair trade. And why are you in the air? Stay grounded its a grounded stage.

You seriously believe only the damaging sections are problematic?

 

[Alphicans]

Aside from those, only the diagonal line transformation is problematic (which is probably the worst one anyways). The wind one is pretty lame too, but I've never seen it become a pivotal force in a match.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Aside from those, only the diagonal line transformation is problematic (which is probably the worst one anyways). The wind one is pretty lame too, but I've never seen it become a pivotal force in a match.

I'm actually surprised how many matches are affected by the line.

 

[fkacyan]

Aside from those, only the diagonal line transformation is problematic (which is probably the worst one anyways). The wind one is pretty lame too, but I've never seen it become a pivotal force in a match.

When I get home I am going to go transformation by transformation and explain why the majority are problematic.

It's actually patently obvious, but I guess there's nothing wrong with enumerating it for you.

 

[Tesh]

When I get home I am going to go transformation by transformation and explain why the majority are problematic.

It's actually patently obvious, but I guess there's nothing wrong with enumerating it for you.

It wouldn't be hard to explain a common situation where the any transformation could pop up and screw things up.

Its just obviously bad to have things popping up with no warning. Its not really about any transformation being a huge problem once its already popped up.

 

[T-block]

@Judo: Fireballs are definitely not a "get out of jail free card", as has already been pointed out. The fact remains that you still have to land, and this drawing limits the options you have for doing that. What is important to know about this is that you are only taking 1% per hit, so each time you touch the drawing you shouldn't be taking more than 4%.

@Alphicans: It was pointed out earlier than the Blowing drawing is also solid and can mess up recoveries in the same way as Diagonal Line. I've actually seen that happen to Dan in a match against me once.

@Thio and everyone else:

Before we delve any further into this argument, we need to define problematic. I know you're going to come here and list each drawing that hurts you saying that damage might have changed the match, and each drawing with walls saying "what if they appear when Dedede has you in a chain grab", and then probably each drawing with platforms saying they are bad if you're being juggled, etc. However, is that really problematic?

I UNDERSTAND the idea of eliminating as much randomness as possible, and I realize the idea does have its merits. However, putting aside the fact that I think this is an enjoyable, strategic stage that adds something to the game, I'd also like to point out the hypocrisy we see from those who wish to eliminate as much randomness as possible. I do not see how you can advocate Yoshi's Island's legality, and even starter status, while calling for a ban on Pictochat. If you are truly saying we should eliminate as much randomness as possible, and then say the stage list should be BF/FD/SV/maybe a few others, then fine - I acknowledge that this is coming from your ideals, and I can't really argue with that. However, I do take issue when people want to ban Pictochat without realizing how "random" it is in comparison with what is already legal.

 

[Tesh]

Problematic is things popping up without fair warning. Platforms, spikes, lines, walls, ceilings, springs, carts, faces, anything. Its not that they hugely ruin gameplay after that initial moment, but its just as random as turning on items with NONE of the benefits.

 

[fkacyan]

I do not see how you can advocate Yoshi's Island's legality

I don't under the current CP system, ideally. I only do realistically because the community is stupid and certain things not being advocated put too many people off.

Before we delve any further into this argument, we need to define problematic. I know you're going to come here and list each drawing that hurts you saying that damage might have changed the match, and each drawing with walls saying "what if they appear when Dedede has you in a chain grab", and then probably each drawing with platforms saying they are bad if you're being juggled, etc. However, is that really problematic?

Yes, it is. They are situations that can put drastically change a players situation without any input from either player.

 

[Teh Future]

im using picto as a neutral for my tournament LOL

 

[napZzz]

nothing like a stage that can kill you at low percents and do insane damage from stage hazards while giving plenty of walls and a long flat surface inbetween to overall combine into one hell of an awesomely should be legal stage

yep.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't under the current CP system, ideally. I only do realistically because the community is stupid and certain things not being advocated put too many people off.



Yes, it is. They are situations that can put drastically change a players situation without any input from either player.

Sometimes I wonder if the community is really that dense like people say it is.

I tend to think no with my experiences working with this community.

 

[Judo777]

You know what stage also shouldn't be legal..... Lylat and Yoshis. I would hate to think that i lost money because the tilt kills me or the ghost platform saves my opponent.......

 

[Tesh]

Tilt falls under fair warning though. Where the ship will go is random, but how it tilts when it gets there is not random so if you pay attentio to the background.....Its like Delfino.

 

[fkacyan]

You know what stage also shouldn't be legal..... Lylat and Yoshis. I would hate to think that i lost money because the tilt kills me or the ghost platform saves my opponent.......

It would be really cool if you read my posts and saw that I address these things.

Really cool.

 

[Ghostbone]

You know what stage also shouldn't be legal..... Lylat and Yoshis. I would hate to think that i lost money because the tilt kills me or the ghost platform saves my opponent.......

You know what stage should be legal?

WarioWare

I mean hell you can adapt to that better than Picto.

/My point is that we have to draw the line somewhere and it's most likely picto is over that line.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@Thio and everyone else:

Before we delve any further into this argument, we need to define problematic. I know you're going to come here and list each drawing that hurts you saying that damage might have changed the match, and each drawing with walls saying "what if they appear when Dedede has you in a chain grab", and then probably each drawing with platforms saying they are bad if you're being juggled, etc. However, is that really problematic?

It's very, very hard to figure out what actually is problematic, but when a specific example shows up, then pointing to it is easy. Just sayin'. Like, pictochat? It's a problem. We're not sure where the line is, but we're pretty sure that the ability to randomly gimp someone instantly out of nowhere with 0 chance of survival is somewhere on the far side of it.

I UNDERSTAND the idea of eliminating as much randomness as possible, and I realize the idea does have its merits. However, putting aside the fact that I think this is an enjoyable, strategic stage that adds something to the game, I'd also like to point out the hypocrisy we see from those who wish to eliminate as much randomness as possible. I do not see how you can advocate Yoshi's Island's legality, and even starter status, while calling for a ban on Pictochat. If you are truly saying we should eliminate as much randomness as possible, and then say the stage list should be BF/FD/SV/maybe a few others, then fine - I acknowledge that this is coming from your ideals, and I can't really argue with that. However, I do take issue when people want to ban Pictochat without realizing how "random" it is in comparison with what is already legal.

The difference between Pictochat and Yoshi's Island is pretty considerable. The difference is how much each player can react. Tell me this-when you gimp an opponent on YI, and the cloud pops up and saves them, what are your options? If you are smart (remember,this is a situation where your opponent has literally no options beyond "hope the cloud pops up" and once that happens, they almost always have quite a bit of lag due to specialfall), you are making sure that doesn't happen. Both the player saved and the player harmed by the hazard can react to it; the player saved by aiming for where he knows it could pop up, and the player harmed by being there as well, jockeying the opponent out of that position, or punishing the lag when the platform does show up (say, if you're Ike, you can go out and fair the position where the platform would show up, and regardless of how it turns out, your opponent is dead-either they died off the bottom, or your fair killed them).

On pictochat, however, there is a difference. This is the inherent difference between a hazard that saves and a hazard that harms-in one case, both players can react. In the other, only the player not harmed has a chance to react and make the best of the situation. You get suddenly gimped by the picasso line, and there's no reaction. There's nothing you can do to improve your situation. It's not like the platforms on YI, where the "harmed" player can prepare for it and screw his opponent over (or at the very least keep them in a horrible position) if they would get saved; no, the harmed player just dies and cannot do anything about it. He should've been more careful, I guess.

You know what stage also shouldn't be legal..... Lylat and Yoshis. I would hate to think that i lost money because the tilt kills me or the ghost platform saves my opponent.......

Troll is bad.

 

[Judo777]

Because I'm sure there are high level players who take the time to learn the exact timing for lylat tilts......

Everytime I'm being juggled and I go into the fireball i take 2% max and get to the ledge for free because people aren't fast enough to keep up with me (and sheik's airspeed is terrible). Fireballs are great if ur in a bad spot.

 

[Tesh]

Because I'm sure there are high level players who take the time to learn the exact timing for lylat tilts......

Everytime I'm being juggled and I go into the fireball i take 2% max and get to the ledge for free because people aren't fast enough to keep up with me (and sheik's airspeed is terrible). Fireballs are great if ur in a bad spot.

Its not about whether or not top players are lazy. Its about whether or not the stage is reasonable. At least you CAN learn and prepare for lylat.

Your argument for fireballs isn't good anyway. You realize that if its randomly and suddenly helping or hurting you, its still a negative aspect of the stage competitively right?

 

[Alphicans]

@Alphicans: It was pointed out earlier than the Blowing drawing is also solid and can mess up recoveries in the same way as Diagonal Line. I've actually seen that happen to Dan in a match against me once.

Lol oh really? Damn. Well I guess I can't take my own experience to be the truth. However, I've always believe the wind transformation was one of the worst ones (worse than the fireballs and missles imo).

It's very, very hard to figure out what actually is problematic, but when a specific example shows up, then pointing to it is easy. Just sayin'. Like, pictochat? It's a problem. We're not sure where the line is, but we're pretty sure that the ability to randomly gimp someone instantly out of nowhere with 0 chance of survival is somewhere on the far side of it.



The difference between Pictochat and Yoshi's Island is pretty considerable. The difference is how much each player can react. Tell me this-when you gimp an opponent on YI, and the cloud pops up and saves them, what are your options? If you are smart (remember,this is a situation where your opponent has literally no options beyond "hope the cloud pops up" and once that happens, they almost always have quite a bit of lag due to specialfall), you are making sure that doesn't happen. Both the player saved and the player harmed by the hazard can react to it; the player saved by aiming for where he knows it could pop up, and the player harmed by being there as well, jockeying the opponent out of that position, or punishing the lag when the platform does show up (say, if you're Ike, you can go out and fair the position where the platform would show up, and regardless of how it turns out, your opponent is dead-either they died off the bottom, or your fair killed them).

On pictochat, however, there is a difference. This is the inherent difference between a hazard that saves and a hazard that harms-in one case, both players can react. In the other, only the player not harmed has a chance to react and make the best of the situation. You get suddenly gimped by the picasso line, and there's no reaction. There's nothing you can do to improve your situation. It's not like the platforms on YI, where the "harmed" player can prepare for it and screw his opponent over (or at the very least keep them in a horrible position) if they would get saved; no, the harmed player just dies and cannot do anything about it. He should've been more careful, I guess.



Troll is bad.

You're assuming your aeiral will kill in every situation... I can tell you that this is almost never the case. Ike's fair is a bad kill move usually anyways (not saying this is your point, but it was a bad example).

Also you're assuming the ghost is the only problem. The platform moving and the shyguys are an issue as well.

When the platform moves, you can sometimes accidentally platform cancel and get punished for it pretty badly. This happened to someone I was vsing and I got a free fsmash on a MK because instead of dropping through dair, they just platform canceled.

The shyguys are an issue because they extend the duration of hitboxes. I've gotten fully charged usmahes (as GaW) because the shyguys came down and I hit them, and made the timing of a punish incorrect.

 

[UberMario]

It was pointed out earlier than the Blowing drawing is also solid and can mess up recoveries in the same way as Diagonal Line. I've actually seen that happen to Dan in a match against me once.

Even worse is that a good chunk of the solid hitbox doesn't match properly with the face, so you can hit what seems to be an invisible wall around the back of the head. I forget where exactly it is, but if you use a gliding character like Meta-Knight and go into testing mode [and time it so that you're behind it after it starts forming, I had to keep reseting the room and raising the speed to not spend time waiting when I tested it a few months ago], I'm sure you'll know what I mean.