Pictochat

[-LzR-]

Because I'm sure there are high level players who take the time to learn the exact timing for lylat tilts......

That is a horrible argument.
I am sure there are people who are willing to learn to do thing x because it takes skill.

 

[BSP]

There are 27 transformations, and the game cycles through all 27 before repeating any.
It usually takes just over 9 minutes to get through a cycle of 27. This means that in a standard 8 minute match there will be transformations that do not appear. If the game takes 5 minutes, there will be around 15 transformations.
The first transformation appears two seconds into the match.
The time of appearance and duration of each transformation is not predictable in general. See the Timing section for more details.

So basically, until you see a drawing, you have a chance of randomly encountering it at pretty much any point during the match, especially considering,

In other words, duration and appearance of transformations is not 100% predictable, as some have been claiming. The variance in both duration and appearance can be several seconds - a substantial window that makes predicting Pictochat impractical.

So, when you get hit, when your opponent gets hit, when you get grabbed and vice versa, when you're recovering and vice versa, it's all fair game for a transformation that hasn't appeared yet to randomly appear and potentially screw you over and change the match. I can see why this stage is legal already.

Let's think realistic. You're in a match, fighting an opponent. How are you going to isolate yourself, and limit your options, to one safety zone (the pick with the green "safety zone" on the left", that doesn't think about the other guy trying to win) to attempt to avoid transformations that may or may not come up? It's ludicrous guys.

Transformations do not become "active" (you cannot interact with them) until they are completely drawn.

Are you sure? After snake gets randomly gayed by Picto he gets thrown and spiked down, before the spikes are finished drawing. How are we supposed to react to stuff like this?

Missiles do set knockback and generally won't kill with proper DI. Being hit by one does 25%.
The drawing time on the missiles makes them avoidable, or at the very least shieldable, on reaction.
It is very easy to influence the trajectory you are sent on by the missiles. Very rarely should you be hit by one into the other

Yeah, on their on, I agree, you can deal with the missiles.

But you're in a match. We can't assume we're going to be ready to react to everything in a split second once it happens.

What happens when your opponent grabs you, then the missile appears, then throws you into it, then combos off the missile for a good 40% from one mistake? Is it fair how Picto decided to give your opponent 40% from your one screw up? How are you supposed to prepare for that specific situation if 20 other ones could've happened as well?

Arrows, Cart, Plant, Spikes all have knockback that scales with damage.
Spikes will hit you into themselves and kill you vertically if you are sent flying hard enough into them (unconfirmed)

Which can all kill you if they randomly spawn in at an unfortunate time for you. And again, it's impossible to prepare for all these transformations at once if you're actually fighting or recovering or pretty much anything.

Diagonal Line does not allow you to grab the ledge on the left side. It is the only transformation without a hitbox that can kill you, barring some ridiculous circumstance.

Yeah. Pro Picto people will say: don't aim for the ledge.

Ok, let's say I do that and recover high, but the line doesn't appear, because, again, I have no sure fire way of knowing what's coming next unless it's the last transformation, which won't happen in an 8 minute match. Now I'm stuck next my opponent with landing lag and I get punished.

Or what if I predict the line, and aim my recovery a little bit higher, to run into another random transformation? Missile, Wind, or Spikes from Ground maybe?

You see where I'm going? All of this has the same chance to happen. How can we predict/prepare?

The wind on the Blowing transformation does not extend past the far end of the stage.

The wind can also randomly reward an opponent who gets a grab by extending their chaingrab Look at 9:21 and I'm sure there are other problems with the wind...How is this fair?

6/27 transformations (Arrows, Cart, Fire, Missiles, Plant, Spikes) have active hitboxes.

That can appear anytime and potentially decide a match, or make someone's mistake or read much more rewarding/painful...and you CAN'T prepare for all of them mid-match. Did I mention the randomness?

5/27 transformations (Arrows, Cart, Plant, Spikes, Diagonal Line) have the potential to kill you. Missiles is not counted due to set knockback.

See above. Again, you can't predict them all and prepare for them all at once while someone is fighting you.

6/27 transformations (Arrows, Bricks, Diagonal Line, Sailboat, Singer, Whale) have temporary "walls".

That can appear anytime and you can't predict them. They can also set you up for an infinite of some kind or potentially save you from an otherwise fatal blow.

3/27 (Bricks, Sailboat, Whale) could leave one player untouchable, if they spawn around him.

Which have the potential to decide a match going to time, randomly of course.

These examples sound extreme, but the thing is, they CAN happen, and you can't predict it...These types of things happen and decide where the money goes in tournament...and they're ALL RANDOM

We're supposed to aim for less randomness right? Picto constantly has the potential to shift the match...randomly. How is this still legal?

What separates Picto from Wario Ware? The entire match on Picto is running on luck. We might as well have Wario Ware legal if we're ok with luck potentially deciding the match.

Examples I happen to find
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr3oDfzunvI- I don't care if it's Link. Any character that's not Metaknight would've died in that last situation. Again, you're in a match. You can't always choose when and where you'll be someplace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY0VN77EKgw&feature=related enlighten me, what could Espy do at 3:19? Fair right? Also how DEHF goes from 53% to 146% from one mistake. End of the match was pretty fair too am I right? (inb4 tech. I'm pretty sure Espy could've up thrown) Educate me on how DEHF was playing wrong and should've avoided that. He knew it was coming....oh wait, no, there was no way he could....See on picto, that one grab can change EVERYTHING.

Wario Ware for CP plz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyBpo2DVsi8&feature=related

3:35 - do i have to go into it?
Go to the end. You all saw that coming right?

Wario Ware please.

 

[T-block]

So basically, until you see a drawing, you have a chance of randomly encountering it at pretty much any point during the match, especially considering,



So, when you get hit, when your opponent gets hit, when you get grabbed and vice versa, when you're recovering and vice versa, it's all fair game for a transformation that hasn't appeared yet to randomly appear and potentially screw you over and change the match. I can see why this stage is legal already.

Let's think realistic. You're in a match, fighting an opponent. How are you going to isolate yourself, and limit your options, to one safety zone (the pick with the green "safety zone" on the left", that doesn't think about the other guy trying to win) to attempt to avoid transformations that may or may not come up? It's ludicrous guys.





Are you sure? After snake gets randomly gayed by Picto he gets thrown and spiked down, before the spikes are finished drawing. How are we supposed to react to stuff like this?



Yeah, on their on, I agree, you can deal with the missiles.

But you're in a match. We can't assume we're going to be ready to react to everything in a split second once it happens.

What happens when your opponent grabs you, then the missile appears, then throws you into it, then combos off the missile for a good 40% from one mistake? Is it fair how Picto decided to give your opponent 40% from your one screw up? How are you supposed to prepare for that specific situation if 20 other ones could've happened as well?




Which can all kill you if they randomly spawn in at an unfortunate time for you. And again, it's impossible to prepare for all these transformations at once if you're actually fighting or recovering or pretty much anything.




Yeah. Pro Picto people will say: don't aim for the ledge.

Ok, let's say I do that and recover high, but the line doesn't appear, because, again, I have no sure fire way of knowing what's coming next unless it's the last transformation, which won't happen in an 8 minute match. Now I'm stuck next my opponent with landing lag and I get punished.

Or what if I predict the line, and aim my recovery a little bit higher, to run into another random transformation? Missile, Wind, or Spikes from Ground maybe?

You see where I'm going? All of this has the same chance to happen. How can we predict/prepare?



The wind can also randomly reward an opponent who gets a grab by extending their chaingrab Look at 9:21 and I'm sure there are other problems with the wind...How is this fair?



That can appear anytime and potentially decide a match, or make someone's mistake or read much more rewarding/painful...and you CAN'T prepare for all of them mid-match. Did I mention the randomness?




See above. Again, you can't predict them all and prepare for them all at once while someone is fighting you.




That can appear anytime and you can't predict them. They can also set you up for an infinite of some kind or potentially save you from an otherwise fatal blow.




Which have the potential to decide a match going to time, randomly of course.

These examples sound extreme, but the thing is, they CAN happen, and you can't predict it...These types of things happen and decide where the money goes in tournament...and they're ALL RANDOM

We're supposed to aim for less randomness right? Picto constantly has the potential to shift the match...randomly. How is this still legal?

What separates Picto from Wario Ware? The entire match on Picto is running on luck. We might as well have Wario Ware legal if we're ok with luck potentially deciding the match.

Examples I happen to find
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr3oDfzunvI- I don't care if it's Link. Any character that's not Metaknight would've died in that last situation. Again, you're in a match. You can't always choose when and where you'll be someplace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY0VN77EKgw&feature=related enlighten me, what could Espy do at 3:19? Fair right? Also how DEHF goes from 53% to 146% from one mistake. End of the match was pretty fair too am I right? (inb4 tech. I'm pretty sure Espy could've up thrown) Educate me on how DEHF was playing wrong and should've avoided that. He knew it was coming....oh wait, no, there was no way he could....See on picto, that one grab can change EVERYTHING.

Wario Ware for CP plz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyBpo2DVsi8&feature=related

3:35 - do i have to go into it?
Go to the end. You all saw that coming right?

Wario Ware please.

I'm just concerned about Picto atm

More often than not, they ARE abused, and the chances of abuse (for Picto at least) are COMPLETELY up to chance, and are CONSTANTLY present during the entire match. In theory, yes, they're all avoidable, but in a match, you're not always going to be ready to respond to Picto's random drawings. Every grab, every recovery, and every hit turns into a luck factor on Pictochat...i don't see how this is considered acceptable.

Simple example: I grab you and throw you for normal percent. However, 2 seconds later, you grab me, and one second after that, the spikes on the sides appear. It has been proven in tournament that this type of Randomness can cost players stocks. How is this fair? I can say my opponent took my stock because of pure LUCK, and it's 100% true in Pictochat's case

For YI:B, yes, it does have randomness, but are you guys saying it's comparable to Picto's randomness? Come on now...Can any interaction on YI potentially turn into an infinite or a stock in a second?




They can't be avoided, but they can have just as much as an impact as Picto does. Picto's transformations do have effects whenever they're present. If you're ok with those, what's wrong with Wario Ware's?

The ledge dissapearing when the microgame starts? Just predict it like Picasso Line or the wind face(which you can't....and you can get punished for doing so)

You turn giant and get combo'd? You turn giant and get an early kill? Just as bad when Picto spawns a wall and you get infinited, or the spikes or missiles come and you get combo'd or get a kill from PURE LUCK.

You or your opponent turns invincible and the other doesnt? Just like how Picto's untouchable transformations can leave someone invulnerable as well while they harass you with projectiles or just disjoints in general. Heck, Brawl is extremely defensive anyway. Even if someone did get invincibility, I'm sure you could find a way to avoid them. And at least you're going to get some kind of reward on WW. On Picto, it's usually just one player getting a massive benefit.

Tell me a way Wario Ware can screw you over that puts it in a league above Picto.



Yeah, we have randomness everywhere. We have to draw the line somewhere, and if Wario ware is on the banned side, Picto should be too IMO.



But that's player controlled and should be considered differently IMO.



Is it Picto level? Is Delfino? You said it yourself, it's impractical to attempt to predict Picto, so any interaction has a luck factor in it. Does that happen on YI? Does every interaction with the players contain a luck factor that could swing the match?




For starter criteria, I agree.

People putting YI in the same category as Picto come on.

K there's a lot of stuff here.

Transformations not becoming active refers to those with hitboxes. Walls appearing before they are drawn has been pointed out before, but thanks for pointing it out again - I will edit it into the OP.

Okay, so most of your argument seems to be based on "Pictochat could screw you over based on chance because your are forced to interact with your opponent". I completely agree. My defense will then consist of the following: an attempt to show that the comparison to Wario Ware is invalid, and an attempt to show that Yoshi's Island: Brawl effects a similar degree of randomness.

On Pictochat, you could grab your opponent and get a throw off, and then your opponent could grab you five seconds later and get a throw into Missles. True. On Wario Ware, you could both win a mini-game and both get healed, and then you could both win the next mini-game and you could be enlarged while your opponent becomes invincible. Also true. Both involve two similar situations where the outcome was drastically different, decided only by the stage.

The difference lies in frequency, because this is what affects the most important aspect of randomness: how often it can significantly sway the outcome of a match. For Wario Ware, it's not unreasonable to expect this to occur in over half of the matches. For Pictochat, it's probably what... 5%? That's probably being generous too.

When it comes to randomness, we ultimately care about, roughly speaking, "how often does it allow the "worse" player to win? It should be clear that Wario Ware does so much more often than Pictochat ever could, especially considering that an unfortunate event on Pictochat, while completely attributed to randomness, may not even have that large of an effect - we've been talking extremes (recoveries being screwed over, 25% from the missle), but often it's just another 10% taken (being thrown into the plant or mine cart at non-KO percents, for example), whereas such an event on Wario Ware could easily happen several times in one match.

More on Yoshi's Island later today.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So... why does a low frequency of occurrence suddenly make the randomness alright? You have no way of knowing that the 1% of the time it might happen could be the grand finals of a major tournament.

And it ISN'T comparable to YI:B. I've explained this before.

There are only two possible positions that the support platform can come up from, and only one matters at a time. As long as you always assume that the platform will come up when it matters, BOTH players can re-act with near-equal ability.

You're trying to compare this to Pictochat where there are LOTS of random events that could happen, several of them can drastically affect the game, and when they do affect the game, often only one player can do anything about it (the one who it didn't affect).

 

[BSP]

Picto vs Wario ware

Ok, to be honest, I was slightly trolling with the wario ware part (I agree with what you say), but my point still stands on the randomness that Picto has. It is EXCESSIVE.

We agree that Pictochat, throughout the entire match, has the chance of allowing the worse player to win, or just heavily screw up the match in general, solely based upon random chance. I'm not even kidding with this statement, it's 100% true.

Again, how is this acceptable for tournament? Do we want Grand Finals to be determined by one person getting lucky off that one grab, or hitting just at the right time?

Does Yoshi's Island compare to this?

Can any interaction on YI potentially turn into an infinite or a stock in a second? Is EVERY interaction on YI accompanied by a luck factor? For picto, the answer is YES to both of these questions.

Answer that, and that will tell you if YI is on the same level of Picto in terms of randomness.

You're trying to compare this to Pictochat where there are LOTS of random events that could happen, several of them can drastically affect the game, and when they do affect the game, often only one player can do anything about it (the one who it didn't affect).

This is why pro-Picto's prediction thing doesn't stand. I'm 100% positive that you can't play through a match on Picto and be ready for everything 100% of the time. Even when you try to predict something, something else could happen, and you get screwed. You can legitimately say, "he/she got lucky" This is a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXg3C9mhTkw#t=1m42s

I found the video that I was talking about before. There is no way that the person could have avoided that [without going headfirst into that F-Smash], and he was attacked from the MIDDLE of the stage.

EDIT: Gah . . . . if you're replying to this, place the quote in the Pictochat thread.

What was Kismet supposed to do? Predict the line and go straight into the Fsmash? Or go high and run into a missile or maybe the cart....yeah, great stage we've got to decide who's the better player. You see what we're saying? YOU CAN'T PREDICT THIS STAGE. You are forced to make decisions on something that MIGHT happen? This is ludicrous for tournament.

Also, right before that, the island with the flag appears, randomly. Big Lou takes a chaingrab because of this....this isn't fair. Kismet is also RANDOMLY FORCED to be above MK, the guy with the extremely fast Uair for platform pressure. Even the transformations without active hitboxes can change the match.

Please ban this thing.

 

[Tesh]

To add to that last part for BSP, people rarely take into account when defending this stage that a transformation without hitboxes can still change the course of a match by alot. At high level play, little mistakes can be punished pretty hard. Having walls and platforms pop up to instantly prevent or enable a punish is just....poor for competition.

Ideally we wouldn't have YI:B either because of the ghost platforms imo. But I'll admit being ready for 1 single game changing possibility is more reasonable than being ready for 20+ game changing possibilities.

 

[BSP]

No, you can't compare YI:B randomness to Picto randomness. Just ask yourself this:

Can any interaction on YI potentially turn into an infinite or a stock in a second? Is EVERY interaction on YI accompanied by a luck factor? For picto, the answer is YES to both of these questions.

Should be fairly obvious.

 

[UberMario]

On YI: Brawl, the Support Ghosts aren't that big of a deal.

Did you knock your foes away?

Stand at the edge and be prepared to use a long-ranged FSmash or jump for a killer aerial if their prospects of reaching the edge are low.

Did your opponent go into a freefall?

Jump above them and do a N-Air/D-Air or two just in case they get assistance [after refreshing your jumps, of course], as they still have landing lag, the end of the freefall, and the surprise of being saveed to deal with.

Did your opponent start falling while not in a freefall?

Stay near that edge anyway to counter!

It's really simple, and much easier to deal with by both parties than the Picto drawings.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^This is what I've been trying to say.

 

[Alphicans]

Lol at assuming you can hit them without shielding, and lol at assuming you can kill them period. There are more issues with randomness in yoshi's island. Please look at my post. Those are real threats that happen OFTEN.

"Can any interaction on YI potentially turn into an infinite or a stock in a second? Is EVERY interaction on YI accompanied by a luck factor? For picto, the answer is YES to both of these questions."

No for the first one, yes for the second one. The shyguys, as far as I know, are completely random, as is the platform moving.

 

[T-block]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5sJ27yJ5x4#t=5m55s

OH MY GOD

 

[Espy Rose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY0VN77EKgw&feature=related enlighten me, what could Espy do at 3:19? Fair right?

It's perfectly fair. I could've DI'd to avoid it, I could've not have approached Falco, or I could've made an attempt to mash out faster to avoid the throw into the spikes.

I didn't do either of those three, so I got punished for it. Sounds fair to me.

Also how DEHF goes from 53% to 146% from one mistake.

He made several mistakes:

1: He chose to dsmash, a move that gave me an eon of time to run up, grab, and bthrow. Falco has plenty of other options to avoid getting grabbed/hitting Sonic into the spikes at that time.
2: He could've DI'd to avoid the spikes.
3: He AIRDODGED after spikes hit him. Had he done ANYTHING ELSE, my second grab wouldn't have happened.
4: He could've DI'd the bthrow again.
5: He could've done ANYTHING AGAIN to avoid my bair KO.

There was a series of alternatives that would've altered the scenario greatly during that part of the match. DEHF made the worst simultaneous choices he could've possibly done, and paid a stock for it.

DEHF was not KO'd off of "one mistake". You'd be blind to not see all of the options available to him.

End of the match was pretty fair too am I right? (inb4 tech. I'm pretty sure Espy could've up thrown) Educate me on how DEHF was playing wrong and should've avoided that. He knew it was coming....oh wait, no, there was no way he could....See on picto, that one grab can change EVERYTHING.

Uthrow would've KO'd him too, BSP. He was dead no matter what I did.

One grab doesn't change everything unless you're Dedede, Ice Climbers, or any other chaingrab based character. The choices made after the grabs are what make it seem like that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm certainly with espy on this one; his kill against DEHF was perfectly legit and DEHF made some serious mistakes. Doesn't stop the rest of the bull**** from making the stage really bad though.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm not arguing for the legitimacy of PictoChat.
Just the legitimacy of those KOs.

Just thought I should clarify.

I DO think there's really not much wrong with Picto, but that's just me. I heavily enjoy the stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

/biased Sonic main

 

[BSP]

It's perfectly fair.

It's fair that the spikes appeared after you made your decision (with no accurate way of predicting it) and when DEHF got that grab?

It's a good thing the line had showed up already, or I would've mentioned that too.

I could've DI'd to avoid it,

eh ok. But Picto still randomly gave DEHF chance to put massive % on you.

I could've not have approached Falco,

Fair enough, but the stage shouldn't randomly punish for a decision with no warning. We may as well turn on items if we're ok with that.

And come on, you have to do things based on what MIGHT happen? and you could be wrong on whether or not they actually happen.

or I could've made an attempt to mash out faster to avoid the throw into the spikes.

At +100%? but ok. My point still stands that the stage randomly punished you for your decision and gave the other player an advantage.

He made several mistakes:

1: He chose to dsmash, a move that gave me an eon of time to run up, grab, and bthrow. Falco has plenty of other options to avoid getting grabbed/hitting Sonic into the spikes at that time.
2: He could've DI'd to avoid the spikes.
3: He AIRDODGED after spikes hit him. Had he done ANYTHING ELSE, my second grab wouldn't have happened.
4: He could've DI'd the bthrow again.
5: He could've done ANYTHING AGAIN to avoid my bair KO.

There was a series of alternatives that would've altered the scenario greatly during that part of the match. DEHF made the worst simultaneous choices he could've possibly done, and paid a stock for it.

Fair enough. But if one player gets lucky, they still could take a stock off you with Picto's random aid.

DEHF was not KO'd off of "one mistake". You'd be blind to not see all of the options available to him.

Gotcha.

Uthrow would've KO'd him too, BSP. He was dead no matter what I did.

One grab doesn't change everything unless you're Dedede, Ice Climbers, or any other chaingrab based character. The choices made after the grabs are what make it seem like that.

But still, that random decision by Picto helps prove that Picto can randomly reward one player. The point still stands.

 

[Tesh]

Eh, I don't see how Espy getting thrown into a spike was "fair". What he did to get grabbed wasn't the right move, and DEHF could have killed him during the lag after probably (Fsmash/Upsmash). But DEHF made the choice to grab instead and got a big reward randomly. Niether of them had any reason to expect the spikes to pop up at that moment. The situation is random.

And yea DEHF was dead the moment he got grabbed, but the situation shows the possibilities to ruin fair play. What if Espy had grabbed him at 130% and thrown him into the spikes? Sonic can't kill off of a grab at 130 but he would have with the spikes. What if the pyramid had popped up and saved DEHF, allowing him to win the match?

Its not really about who made what bad decision to get put in what situation. Its about the rewards and punishment for those risks being so random and unpredictable.

Anyway I don't think we are gaining any ground here. I haven't seen any TOP level matches decided by Pictochat. Maybe that alone is some evidence that you can have an awareness of the possibilities and plan for it. Perhaps if we can't agree on where to draw the line, we can agree that Pictochat presents a degree of randomness not present in any other legal setting. A degree of randomness that the community has already removed in many cases.

 

[Tesh]

I'd like to point out a few things in this match : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyBpo2DVsi8&

01:53 - a potentially deadly juggle ended by a safe landing suddenly becoming available

03:15 - this 30 second stretch is a good one, first note how Denti goes for a dash grab as a wall suddenly draws in. I can't tell if Polt's spotdodge would have saved him anyway, but the wall clearly broke up a close combat situation suddenly.

the next part should be obvious, Denti is punished at 70% with a dash grab and stakes suddenly rise to a 30+ damage punish/combo setup.

04:48 - A safe landing spot, suddenly disappears, resulting in a punish

05:48 - obviously

Is all of this stuff okay?

 

[ぱみゅ]

01:53 - a potentially deadly juggle ended by a safe landing suddenly becoming available

I don't see why that's ban-worthy, he's only used a stage change for his temporary advantage (not arbitrary since stage does not decieded to help anyone, stage just change by its own).
I don't think is any different than a temporary bigger BF, where people can't juggle freely anyways.

03:15 - this 30 second stretch is a good one, first note how Denti goes for a dash grab as a wall suddenly draws in. I can't tell if Polt's spotdodge would have saved him anyway, but the wall clearly broke up a close combat situation suddenly.

Arguably intrusive, but shouldn't surprise anyone since the stage was blank.
I also wouldn't consider that ban-worthy.

the next part should be obvious, Denti is punished at 70% with a dash grab and stakes suddenly rise to a 30+ damage punish/combo setup.

Bolded.
He deserved a punish. Stage changhed and offered a temporary advantage (again, not arbitrary) that Polt capitalized well.
Not ban-worthy since it can't be pulled off consistently.

04:48 - A safe landing spot, suddenly disappears, resulting in a punish

"Safe"? it was there for a while, it was obvious that it was gonna dissapear at any moment.

05:48 - obviously

He was planking as Olimar on the left side of Pictochat while Picasso hadn't appeared yet.
Do I need to mention how many things are wrong on that sentence?


Sorry for bring opinions here, but randomness can't be measured objectively...

 

[Tesh]

Again, its not what the stage changes into, but how sudden it is and with no warning. Its the fact that Polt more or less made the correct decisions to put his opponent into a bad position and was not allowed a chance at his reward. Had he been juggling Denti on Battlefield in the first place, I would expect him to consider the possibility of the platform being there.

The 2nd part shows a CLEAR unfairness in how you can be rewarded on this stage. Denti goes for a dash grab, only to get *********** by a random and sudden wall. Polt goes for a dash grab and gets a powerful kill setup. Yes, he was forced into a bad position and he deserved to be punished, but the amount of punishment turned out to be randomly decided after he made his mistake. We all know that normally dash grabs don't = death in that situation at 70%, but it randomly did this time.

Alas, I still maintain that these issues are the sudden nature of the random events. If Denti had lost his last stock due to no ledge on Frigate, it would be reasonable as it has sirens, flashing lights and plenty of time to prepare imo.


Don't apologize for your opinion, thats all it really comes down to really.

 

[Raziek]

I'm gonna have to side with Tesh on this one. That video was an excellent example of the problems with Picto.

That said, Denti really shouldn't have been ****ing around on the ledge there at the end, but the example of how the dash-grabs were rewarded or *********** is a perfect example of the problem.

Both players attempted exactly the same action, at nearly the same time. (relative to when the drawing came in) Denti got *********** completely, Polt got rewarded with a free kill setup. How is that fair?

 

[BSP]

Tesh covered it pretty well, and I didn't notice that dashgrab thing (great example), but here's what I thought. Actually, I feel like I came off rather harsh compared to him, sorry.

Spoiler

I don't see why that's ban-worthy, he's only used a stage change for his temporary advantage (not arbitrary since stage does not decieded to help anyone, stage just change by its own).

Just like how items appear on their own and don't chose to help anyone.

I don't think is any different than a temporary bigger BF, where people can't juggle freely anyways.

That's not the point. The point is that Picto decided to randomly interfere in a confrontation that could've meant Denti's death, especially with a fast character like Yoshi chasing him. Is it fair that Polt's work to set up Denti in a bad position was just thrown away by Picto's decision?

And tesh missed one point at about 3:01. It's fair that Denti gets randomly stuck above the ground and put in a worse position?

Arguably intrusive, but shouldn't surprise anyone since the stage was blank.
I also wouldn't consider that ban-worthy.

Really? Because I was expecting the missiles, or some random platforms, or ANY of the possible transformations Picto could've drawn. So you knew that whale was coming? That's the thing with this stage, everything is a surprise. You can't possibly know what's coming next. If we're supposed to just deal with that, we may as well turn items on.

Bolded.
He deserved a punish. Stage changhed and offered a temporary advantage

So random reward is totally acceptable? Turn on items.

It's fair that Polt's grab was randomly rewarded into a kill setup? It's fair that none of Denti's grabs never got randomly rewarded?
It's fair that Denti got randomly punished for a mistake that cost him a stock? If random interferences potentially causing stocks is acceptable, we should be ok with Bombs on.

(again, not arbitrary) that Polt capitalized well.
Not ban-worthy since it can't be pulled off consistently.

It's extremely easy to combo someone from spikes -> ko move, and it has happened quite a bit I'm sure.

"Safe"? it was there for a while, it was obvious that it was gonna dissapear at any moment.

Just like it's obvious that a bomb could appear at any moment and you should take that into consideration obviously.

Again, random rewards. Why couldn't the platform dissappear a little later? Not to mention that we can't predict when it's going to disappear.

He was planking as Olimar on the left side of Pictochat while Picasso hadn't appeared yet.

So you expect him to make decisions on things that MIGHT happen.

Should he have gotten up and possibly get killed?

this random reward with zero warning is acceptable?

We had NO way of knowing Picasso was coming next. We knew it could come, but we aren't certain. We are being forced to make decisions that could mean death because of random factors, and we could be wrong.

Sorry for bring opinions here, but randomness can't be measured objectively...[/color]

We can determine how much the randomness can interfere with the match at least.

The biggest problem with this stage is the one sided random reward, with no warning, and that's pretty easy to see.

That said, Denti really shouldn't have been ****ing around on the ledge there at the end, but the example of how the dash-grabs were rewarded or *********** is a perfect example of the problem.

So......what was he supposed to do? Expect the line and get up....and die because of Picto's BS?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Jeez.....

BSP, get this right: stages (and items for the argument's sake) do not decide.
You always use it as argument, but it is a bad argument, you make me want to drop discussions everytime you say stage decided something to happen just because how dumb is to saying that...
It's all about semantics, son.

As for everything else you said, I'm not against playing with items, but:
1. It is not the standard.
2. They change results not only random, but instantly and by their own. In Picto player action is needed.
3. Unlike on Pictochat, you never know where Items will spawn and they have even less warning when spawning. You literally don't know what can happen next, in Pictochat possibilities are much reduced than that.

Also, "It's extremely easy to combo someone from spikes -> ko move."
I didn't meant the spike followup can't be pulled off consistently.
I meant that hitting someone into spikes (and the consequent followup) everytime they appear can't.



@Raziek:
Your comment is one of the best ones for the argument right now.
As I said, wall intrusion is a good argument actually, since collission boxes appears at the same time the draw does (before the respective lines does).

I'll think of some response later, I'm pretty tired (and the only one defending the stage) right now.

 

[BSP]

Jeez.....

BSP, get this right: stages (and items for the argument's sake) do not decide.
You always use it as argument, but it is a bad argument, you make me want to drop discussions everytime you say stage decided something to happen just because how dumb is to saying that...
It's all about semantics, son.

Ok, do you want me to say "the line appeared here" instead of "pictochat decided to do X"? Does it really matter? I get the point across don't I?

As for everything else you said, I'm not against playing with items, but:
1. It is not the standard.
2. They change results not only random, but instantly and by their own. In Picto player action is needed.
3. Unlike on Pictochat, you never know where Items will spawn and they have even less warning when spawning. You literally don't know what can happen next, in Pictochat possibilities are much reduced than that.

Fine then, ignore the items part. I don't really care about their place since they'll probably never be legal, so I'll stop bringing them up. But you do see the problem with these random rewards right?

I didn't meant the spike followup can't be pulled off consistently.
I meant that hitting someone into spikes (and the consequent followup) everytime they appear can't.

We won't get anywhere arguing this, but I'd just like to note it can happen. And even if the fatal KO follow-up doesn't happen, it's still an unfair +30%

 

[Raziek]

So......what was he supposed to do? Expect the line and get up....and die because of Picto's BS?

He wasn't supposed to expect the line at all, but he should be well aware that being on the left ledge when that transition has NOT appeared yet is extremely dangerous. He spent several seconds down there when the transition was about to draw in.

If I was him, I'd have tried to get back on stage ASAP. Even if he'd gotten hit, as long as he didn't die, he'd be able to DI properly and either land on the line, or have it drawn in before he got sent flying.

Hell, that's something to think about. What if he had done a get-up roll, was attacked, but bounced off or teched the line, and managed to bring it back and score the KO? Could have been a very different outcome.

The only reason I tolerate Pictochat is this: Though we cannot predict or react to the events, we can PREPARE for their appearances and play in ways that put us in less compromising positions, should something go wrong.

 

[Tesh]

Jeez.....

BSP, get this right: stages (and items for the argument's sake) do not decide.
You always use it as argument, but it is a bad argument, you make me want to drop discussions everytime you say stage decided something to happen just because how dumb is to saying that...
It's all about semantics, son.

As for everything else you said, I'm not against playing with items, but:
1. It is not the standard.
2. They change results not only random, but instantly and by their own. In Picto player action is needed.
3. Unlike on Pictochat, you never know where Items will spawn and they have even less warning when spawning. You literally don't know what can happen next, in Pictochat possibilities are much reduced than that.

Also, "It's extremely easy to combo someone from spikes -> ko move."
I didn't meant the spike followup can't be pulled off consistently.
I meant that hitting someone into spikes (and the consequent followup) everytime they appear can't.



@Raziek:
Your comment is one of the best ones for the argument right now.
As I said, wall intrusion is a good argument actually, since collission boxes appears at the same time the draw does (before the respective lines does).

I'll think of some response later, I'm pretty tired (and the only one defending the stage) right now.

2. They change results not only random, but instantly and by their own. In Picto player action is needed.

Most items don't activate themselves. Pictochat....actually does so you are hurting your argument there.

Also, the LACK of consistency that you are hailing as a strong point for the stage is exactly the problem. You can't consistently use the stage skillfully because there is no warning for anything that will happen.

Edit: Raziek I'm dissappointed. Are you are suggesting that he should have anticipated the line would show up THEN do something obvious that would otherwise be very stupid and hope that the line would show up at the just the right time to **** block another juggle save him from dying off the top? Polt was in the perfect spot to punish an obvious ledge roll and obvious ledge hops. Sure YOU might have done the obvious ledge roll, but you would have gotten hit, because that wouldn't be a very smart thing to do. Denti was trying to be patient and wait for the right moment to recover. You aren't supposed to force everything ASAP based on random risks.

What are you even talking about with proper DI? He was at 130%, you don't "properly DI" any of Yoshi's smashes at that percent with a lightweight and survive (unless a wall pops up).

This competition isn't supposed to be like a casino.

 

[BSP]

If I was him, I'd have tried to get back on stage ASAP. Even if he'd gotten hit, as long as he didn't die, he'd be able to DI properly and either land on the line, or have it drawn in before he got sent flying.

He was at 130% with one of the lighter characters in the game. A usmash or Fsmash would've been death there.

What you just described is my problem with the stage: being pressured to take risks for things you can't predict and have no warning of.

Hell, that's something to think about. What if he had done a get-up roll, was attacked, but bounced off or teched the line, and managed to bring it back and score the KO? Could have been a very different outcome.

It'd just be another point against the stage.

The only reason I tolerate Pictochat is this: Though we cannot predict or react to the events, we can PREPARE for their appearances and play in ways that put us in less compromising positions, should something go wrong.

I only agree to an extent. Disagree if you want, but I think it's impossible to put/keep yourself in a position that is 100% safe from anything that could appear. I.E. you don't want to be combo'd into side spikes, so you stay in the center, then the flower or cart appears.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ok, do you want me to say "the line appeared here" instead of "pictochat decided to do X"? Does it really matter? I get the point across don't I?

It's just that it sounds like "stage is mean and wants to bad stuff happening to players. BAN".
I use to get your point but saying that it was stage's choice is....
Again, it's all about semantics...

Most items don't activate themselves. Pictochat....actually does so you are hurting your argument there.

But they do, while in Picto, in order to players being unable to avoid some situations or use some others for their advantage, their action is needed.
Walls however, is a good argument I'll look into later so don't bring them here right now.

Also, the LACK of consistency that you are hailing as a strong point for the stage is exactly the problem. You can't consistently use the stage skillfully because there is no warning for anything that will happen.

Look at this:

He was at 130% with one of the lighter characters in the game. A usmash or Fsmash would've been death there.

What you just described is my problem with the stage: being pressured to take risks for things you can't predict and have no warning of.

There's where opinions differ.
Some people think that something interferring between you and your oponent reduces skill.
Some people think a change that can't be racted to reduces skill.
Some people think that being able to manage stage and opponent's pressure increases skill.

 

[Tesh]

There is no skill involved in "reading the stage", because you can't do it. Its random. There is no skill involved in "managing the stage's pressure". Its not remotely the same as figuring out what your opponent might do through mindgames, baits and logic. Its just plain luck.


Why isn't it skillful in your opinion to deal with the pressure of items then?

 

[Raziek]

Edit: Raziek I'm dissappointed. Are you are suggesting that he should have anticipated the line would show up THEN do something obvious that would otherwise be very stupid and hope that the line would show up at the just the right time to **** block another juggle save him from dying off the top? Polt was in the perfect spot to punish an obvious ledge roll and obvious ledge hops. Sure YOU might have done the obvious ledge roll, but you would have gotten hit, because that wouldn't be a very smart thing to do. Denti was trying to be patient and wait for the right moment to recover. You aren't supposed to force everything ASAP based on random risks.

What are you even talking about with proper DI? He was at 130%, you don't "properly DI" any of Yoshi's smashes at that percent with a lightweight and survive (unless a wall pops up).

This competition isn't supposed to be like a casino.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm not suggesting he should have anticipated the line. He's not psychic. What I meant was that he should be aware that being on that ledge is dangerous, and should have taken action to not be on it, ASAP.

I was just brainstorming his options. I agree that it's unfair and unfortunate that the line appeared, because staying on the ledge would have been his best option on any other stage.

As for the DI part, I was referring to the fact that taking action and being punished for it (and possibly surviving) is still better than certain death. It was a matter of risk vs. reward.

He was at 130% with one of the lighter characters in the game. A usmash or Fsmash would've been death there.

What you just described is my problem with the stage: being pressured to take risks for things you can't predict and have no warning of.

It'd just be another point against the stage.

I only agree to an extent. Disagree if you want, but I think it's impossible to put/keep yourself in a position that is 100% safe from anything that could appear. I.E. you don't want to be combo'd into side spikes, so you stay in the center, then the flower or cart appears.

I guess I need to say it again: I'm very torn on Pictochat.

I love the stage, I enjoy playing on it, and I believe you can play in a "safe" manner FOR Pictochat, but I cannot refute that the events are extremely intrusive and often game-changing. It's probably my biggest internal conflict when it comes to stage legality.

 

[Tesh]

Don't think about how you enjoy playing on the stage. I enjoy WarioWare, Green Greens and Japes to an extent, but I don't recommend them for tournament play.

As for the DI part, I was referring to the fact that taking action and being punished for it (and possibly surviving) is still better than certain death. It was a matter of risk vs. reward.

On frigate, yes. But this wasn't certain, it was random.

 

[ぱみゅ]

"Reading the stage"?
Wait, what?
I'm not comparing stages with players, that's why I disagree with stuff being "decided" by stages.

Now, Pictochat has 27 specific possible changes, which reduces as the battle advances. Which transformation will appear next IS random, but you do not need to react to any if you're prepared for something to happen and act accordingly, and/or force your opponent into being unable to.


Any -active- item can appear anywhere at any moment. Sice it is impossible to be prepared for them, you MUST react to them, which in some cases (explosives mainly) is plainly impossible.

 

[Tesh]

When the stage is blank, you DO have to we ready for something to suddenly affect you regardless of where you are.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXg3C9mhTkw&t=1m45s

Kismet has no options here beyond go for the ledge. No, seriously. NONE. It's either "go for the ledge" or "eat an fsmash and die". So he goes for the ledge and guess what: a 1 in 20 chance flat-out kills him. THIS IS NOT OKAY!

 

[Alphicans]

Actually if he had sideB'd earlier, he would've been fine. However, that doesn't make what happened ok. I am actually starting to question this stage. I honestly am really surprised how many examples of that line ****ing over matches there are + other things.

 

[BSP]

Actually if he had sideB'd earlier, he would've been fine.

I disagree. The flames, Flower, or Kart could've appeared and screwed him over too. An earlier side B would've also been giving Lou a free grab.

Also, just to note, 1:04. The wall's appearance saves kismet from a punish. I know it's small, but it's the little things that count.

 

[WindMajor]

If you guys want to do something about the stage, you guys should get organized and do it.

As in, gather quite literally all the videos you can find and have them in a single post for reference, then go video by video explaining how each video shows excessive randomness or whatever.

I'm neutral as to the legality of this stage, and doing this could provoke more insightful discussion from both sides.

 

[Alphicans]

I disagree. The flames, Flower, or Kart could've appeared and screwed him over too. An earlier side B would've also been giving Lou a free grab.

Also, just to note, 1:04. The wall's appearance saves kismet from a punish. I know it's small, but it's the little things that count.

Flames would have saved him, the flower would've been too far inside the stage, the kart would've been too high up, and a free grab is not a huge deal.

 

[Tesh]

Landing on stage is exactly what the MK was had committed to punishing. An earlier side b could have been punished by pretty much anything. A dsmash, fsmash or grab would put him right back offstage again in the same situation, if not dead.

 

[Alphicans]

He wouldn't have died from anything. I am not even disagreeing with the point, I am just pointing out that he had other options that let him live.