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Pikachu boards think they may have found a ~30% to death combo on almost everyone

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,664
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
This is BRAWL, not SSB64 or Melee. Please stop comparing bawrl with melee and/or ssb64, they are all different and they are played differently. Yes I know you could 0death people in 64 all the time and yes, I know you could do that in Melee too, just that it wasnt that easy because (some) combos can be DI'd out of.

Also, combos in 64 and melee actually required skill to perform and sometimes you just had to improvise... There was Z/L-canceling, wavedashes, etc. In brawl you can just push a few buttons and the opponent cant do ****... ex: DDD infinite, DDD CG, pika CG, pika footstool combo, falcos CG, etc etc. They require no skill to perform... See where Im going?

Im just saying that these infinites/chaingrabs/footstool combos ruin brawl in my opinion, a game that has no combos (yes ok, there are combos... lame ones but they exist). Brawl is already lame with all the chaingrabs/infinites/camping/planking and people keep finding new ways to make it even lamer...
Your argument is based on the fact that guaranteed successive hits in Melee/64 took technical skill, while guaranteed successive hits in Brawl don't. And I'm almost certain it's also based on the fact that the Melee and 64 combos are interractive, while the Brawl combos are guaranteed.

1. Technical skill required means little at high levels of play where everyone has that level of tech-skill. Why should it really be different? If someone in Brawl has a guaranteed 0-40% that's just dthrow->dthrow->dthrow->dthrow->dthrow, and someone has a guaranteed 0-40% in Melee that's L-cancelled D-air->Shine->Wavedash->Jab->Usmash->Uair, why are they different?

Of course, the same people who complain of Falco's CG in Brawl don't bother to realize that Fox's Thunder's Combo linked with any other combo does basically the same percent and is also unable to be escaped if the Fox is good and have the tech skill required. They say, "Well Falco's CG is really easy," but at higher levels of play, Thunder's Combo will be easy too, and higher levels of play are what overall matters. Point is, they're both similar things.

2. For whatever reason, people bash non-interactive guaranteed combos, but are fine with ones that they can DI out of (even though realistically, against good players it doesn't matter where they DI, they'll be followed up with something).

ICs chaingrabs in Brawl take a LOT of tech skill to be able to do consistently--this kills your whole argument about similar things in Melee or 64 take skill when Brawl ones don't--yet they still get bashed hard. Why? Most probably because there isn't a chance at all for you to escape. If ICs are doing it right, you aren't getting out, period.

Now let's compare this with Marth's F-air in Melee. You get hit by it, and depending on your percent and what character you are, Marth has an easy follow-up for another aerial or attack, which can follow-up into another aerial or attack, etc. Essentially, this could lead into a combo into the other side of the stage. The general argument is that it isn't guaranteed--which it isn't--but a good Marth player will be able to follow your DI and follow up with something different depending on where you DI. Granted, it isn't the same succession of moves every time, but he has a possible follow-up for any situation no matter where you DI at some point.

Or how about when he gets a tippered F-air off-stage? If he has another jump, you can get spiked. You CAN DI out of it, but often won't be suspecting to and it can easily mean death.

That was a kind of murky example...but I'm just trying to prove a point. People hate something that does a certain amount of damage that is 100% guaranteed, but they're tolerant if they have a chance to get out of it, even if their opponent is good and will most likely not mess up and be able to read their DI.

And honestly, how many infinites are even in the current Brawl meta-game? There are...

IC's Infinites: These take a high level of tech-skill and are situational; both Popo and Nana have to be together for this to work. Plus, ICs have the shortest grab range in the game. This is easily avoidable by camping platforms and using safer moves to seperate the two, then being aggressive on not-many-options-left Popo or punishing Nana's horrible AI.

D3's infinites: This majorly only affects one match-up, Donkey Kong, in a match-up that's arguably in Dedede's favor even without the infinite. I'm not 100% sure, but apparently Mario, Luigi, and Samus can mash out before 120%, and it only works on Bowser and Wolf at the edge. But really, this makes one character (Donkey Kong) who was viable less viable. That's it. How many people does Sheik make unviable in Melee with her down-throw CG?

Grab-release stuff on Wario: Most aren't infinites, only affect one character in the game, and that one character is the character with the best aerial DI and the character who gets grabbed the least ouf of all characters. Works out pretty well.

Planking: Something that was hardly looked in-depth into and prematurely banned in some regions with an inefficient rule. It's something that some characters can easily get past, and many if not all characters can get past in the first place with a well-timed aerial.

ZSS's Footstool Infinite on R.O.B: Makes one already bad match-up much, much worse.

Pika's Footstool Infinite: Is situational, because you have to be hit by a reverse U-air. You also have two chances to DI out of it.

Oh yeah, there's so many game-breaking infinites and lame things in Brawl, why does anyone play it?
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,197
Location
Pika?
Your argument is based on the fact that guaranteed successive hits in Melee/64 took technical skill, while guaranteed successive hits in Brawl don't. And I'm almost certain it's also based on the fact that the Melee and 64 combos are interractive, while the Brawl combos are guaranteed.

1. Technical skill required means little at high levels of play where everyone has that level of tech-skill. Why should it really be different? If someone in Brawl has a guaranteed 0-40% that's just dthrow->dthrow->dthrow->dthrow->dthrow, and someone has a guaranteed 0-40% in Melee that's L-cancelled D-air->Shine->Wavedash->Jab->Usmash->Uair, why are they different?

Of course, the same people who complain of Falco's CG in Brawl don't bother to realize that Fox's Thunder's Combo linked with any other combo does basically the same percent and is also unable to be escaped if the Fox is good and have the tech skill required. They say, "Well Falco's CG is really easy," but at higher levels of play, Thunder's Combo will be easy too, and higher levels of play are what overall matters. Point is, they're both similar things.

2. For whatever reason, people bash non-interactive guaranteed combos, but are fine with ones that they can DI out of (even though realistically, against good players it doesn't matter where they DI, they'll be followed up with something).

ICs chaingrabs in Brawl take a LOT of tech skill to be able to do consistently--this kills your whole argument about similar things in Melee or 64 take skill when Brawl ones don't--yet they still get bashed hard. Why? Most probably because there isn't a chance at all for you to escape. If ICs are doing it right, you aren't getting out, period.

Now let's compare this with Marth's F-air in Melee. You get hit by it, and depending on your percent and what character you are, Marth has an easy follow-up for another aerial or attack, which can follow-up into another aerial or attack, etc. Essentially, this could lead into a combo into the other side of the stage. The general argument is that it isn't guaranteed--which it isn't--but a good Marth player will be able to follow your DI and follow up with something different depending on where you DI. Granted, it isn't the same succession of moves every time, but he has a possible follow-up for any situation no matter where you DI at some point.

Or how about when he gets a tippered F-air off-stage? If he has another jump, you can get spiked. You CAN DI out of it, but often won't be suspecting to and it can easily mean death.

That was a kind of murky example...but I'm just trying to prove a point. People hate something that does a certain amount of damage that is 100% guaranteed, but they're tolerant if they have a chance to get out of it, even if their opponent is good and will most likely not mess up and be able to read their DI.

And honestly, how many infinites are even in the current Brawl meta-game? There are...

IC's Infinites: These take a high level of tech-skill and are situational; both Popo and Nana have to be together for this to work. Plus, ICs have the shortest grab range in the game. This is easily avoidable by camping platforms and using safer moves to seperate the two, then being aggressive on not-many-options-left Popo or punishing Nana's horrible AI.

D3's infinites: This majorly only affects one match-up, Donkey Kong, in a match-up that's arguably in Dedede's favor even without the infinite. I'm not 100% sure, but apparently Mario, Luigi, and Samus can mash out before 120%, and it only works on Bowser and Wolf at the edge. But really, this makes one character (Donkey Kong) who was viable less viable. That's it. How many people does Sheik make unviable in Melee with her down-throw CG?

Grab-release stuff on Wario: Most aren't infinites, only affect one character in the game, and that one character is the character with the best aerial DI and the character who gets grabbed the least ouf of all characters. Works out pretty well.

Planking: Something that was hardly looked in-depth into and prematurely banned in some regions with an inefficient rule. It's something that some characters can easily get past, and many if not all characters can get past in the first place with a well-timed aerial.

ZSS's Footstool Infinite on R.O.B: Makes one already bad match-up much, much worse.

Pika's Footstool Infinite: Is situational, because you have to be hit by a reverse U-air. You also have two chances to DI out of it.

Oh yeah, there's so many game-breaking infinites and lame things in Brawl, why does anyone play it?
God i love you.
 

Teh_Chef

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
21
what a statement. 3 stock on ally? and most of the time?!? just make everything impossible. even m2k cannot 3 stock ally consistenly.
M2K can't even beat Ally consistently at this point, let alone 2, or even 3 stock.
*Not knocking M2K, just pointing something out*
 

Lemon?

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
169
Location
Portugal
So yeah, I actually read the whole post and since you went through the work of writing all that, Ill reply, but you cant seriously expect me to reply to the whole thing so Ill just say this: Youre right. Youre absolutely right. Guess I was exaggerating, these things really arent that game breaking like I made them sound.

Also, Brawl does have a lot of lame things but I still like the game despite all its flaws, its a good game in its own way, like melee, or ssb64... Just different thats all, cant really be compared to the other two.

Anyway, yeah thats it. Goodbye, have a nice day. :p
 

Curaga

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
584
Location
Deltona, FL: USA
Well this would be excellent news for Pikachu. I'd say this makes the world worse for Foxes, but Fox players in particular aren't really effected by this, because I'm sure a ton of us have a secondary just to not play Fox vs Pika. o_o

Is it possible to up-B before the footstool? For example, Sonic?
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,664
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Well this would be excellent news for Pikachu. I'd say this makes the world worse for Foxes, but Fox players in particular aren't really effected by this, because I'm sure a ton of us have a secondary just to not play Fox vs Pika. o_o

Is it possible to up-B before the footstool? For example, Sonic?
Marth's up-B could probably easily get him out of this, as could other quick start up moves, like MK's Nair.
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Pika?
No it can't. I tested it so that the characters with 1 frame moves had frame DISadvantage so pikachu could get the footstool off.
 

Dark 3nergy

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Your argument is based on the fact that guaranteed successive hits in Melee/64 took technical skill, while guaranteed successive hits in Brawl don't. And I'm almost certain it's also based on the fact that the Melee and 64 combos are interractive, while the Brawl combos are guaranteed.

1. Technical skill required means little at high levels of play where everyone has that level of tech-skill. Why should it really be different? If someone in Brawl has a guaranteed 0-40% that's just dthrow->dthrow->dthrow->dthrow->dthrow, and someone has a guaranteed 0-40% in Melee that's L-cancelled D-air->Shine->Wavedash->Jab->Usmash->Uair, why are they different?

Of course, the same people who complain of Falco's CG in Brawl don't bother to realize that Fox's Thunder's Combo linked with any other combo does basically the same percent and is also unable to be escaped if the Fox is good and have the tech skill required. They say, "Well Falco's CG is really easy," but at higher levels of play, Thunder's Combo will be easy too, and higher levels of play are what overall matters. Point is, they're both similar things.

2. For whatever reason, people bash non-interactive guaranteed combos, but are fine with ones that they can DI out of (even though realistically, against good players it doesn't matter where they DI, they'll be followed up with something).

ICs chaingrabs in Brawl take a LOT of tech skill to be able to do consistently--this kills your whole argument about similar things in Melee or 64 take skill when Brawl ones don't--yet they still get bashed hard. Why? Most probably because there isn't a chance at all for you to escape. If ICs are doing it right, you aren't getting out, period.

Now let's compare this with Marth's F-air in Melee. You get hit by it, and depending on your percent and what character you are, Marth has an easy follow-up for another aerial or attack, which can follow-up into another aerial or attack, etc. Essentially, this could lead into a combo into the other side of the stage. The general argument is that it isn't guaranteed--which it isn't--but a good Marth player will be able to follow your DI and follow up with something different depending on where you DI. Granted, it isn't the same succession of moves every time, but he has a possible follow-up for any situation no matter where you DI at some point.

Or how about when he gets a tippered F-air off-stage? If he has another jump, you can get spiked. You CAN DI out of it, but often won't be suspecting to and it can easily mean death.

That was a kind of murky example...but I'm just trying to prove a point. People hate something that does a certain amount of damage that is 100% guaranteed, but they're tolerant if they have a chance to get out of it, even if their opponent is good and will most likely not mess up and be able to read their DI.

And honestly, how many infinites are even in the current Brawl meta-game? There are...

IC's Infinites: These take a high level of tech-skill and are situational; both Popo and Nana have to be together for this to work. Plus, ICs have the shortest grab range in the game. This is easily avoidable by camping platforms and using safer moves to seperate the two, then being aggressive on not-many-options-left Popo or punishing Nana's horrible AI.

D3's infinites: This majorly only affects one match-up, Donkey Kong, in a match-up that's arguably in Dedede's favor even without the infinite. I'm not 100% sure, but apparently Mario, Luigi, and Samus can mash out before 120%, and it only works on Bowser and Wolf at the edge. But really, this makes one character (Donkey Kong) who was viable less viable. That's it. How many people does Sheik make unviable in Melee with her down-throw CG?

Grab-release stuff on Wario: Most aren't infinites, only affect one character in the game, and that one character is the character with the best aerial DI and the character who gets grabbed the least ouf of all characters. Works out pretty well.

Planking: Something that was hardly looked in-depth into and prematurely banned in some regions with an inefficient rule. It's something that some characters can easily get past, and many if not all characters can get past in the first place with a well-timed aerial.

ZSS's Footstool Infinite on R.O.B: Makes one already bad match-up much, much worse.

Pika's Footstool Infinite: Is situational, because you have to be hit by a reverse U-air. You also have two chances to DI out of it.

Oh yeah, there's so many game-breaking infinites and lame things in Brawl, why does anyone play it?

Man if people on this forum could write such logical posts, we'd have less bullsh*t and more honest to god truths.

About D3's infinite's; It's much more trickier to start the infinite's on those characters at lower %--like below 50%. Easier to break out below that point iirc. When i was practicing the D3 infinite on himself at the ledge starting from 0%, the rag doll would often break out after the first pummel.
 

choknater

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Well for DDD's infinite you don't have to pummel...do you?
yes you do :)

after like 5 grabs or so with no pummels, the grab will stale and you cant regrab them for some reason

pummeling once per grab after that is good enough refresher to keep it going though
 

2Sko

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
74
Location
New Jersey
looks real hard, but u need patience for this too, and the power to not being bored in a match..
 

GimR

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After the first footstool -> quick attack you can just QAC lock to death.
the problem with the quick attack lock is that if someone SDI's in one direction it's really hard to keep up with them.(It may not even be possible)
 

gallax

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
5,641
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Orlando(UCF), Fl
the problem with the quick attack lock is that if someone SDI's in one direction it's really hard to keep up with them.(It may not even be possible)
its not that hard since we can angle the qa. any pika main that knows how to qac and use it well can angle the qa into your opponent thats lying on the ground. the difficult part is being a little patient before using the qa to see where your opponent is DIing.
 

Cold Fusion

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ JIGGLYPUFF OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
836
Can you SDI to the left on the right and left hit to slowly go out of it?
I assume it is possible because that is just how foostool combos work, but it will not help your situation if the Pikachu can follow your SDI. This can actually cause you to die at a lower damage if you approach the edge of the stage. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
 

The Truth!

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
991
the problem with the quick attack lock is that if someone SDI's in one direction it's really hard to keep up with them.(It may not even be possible)
It's actually not that hard. You can either angle the QA like gallax said, or you can wait for them to move to the edge of the QA and then just do a second QA in the same direction and proceed with the lock from there, or better yet a combination of the two.

And Y462 that is correct. The idea is once they move to the edge of the stage, you end it with a thunder 2, which kills very early.
 

rugoodat

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Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
337
Location
Phoenix, Arizona Call me Duff
Of course, the same people who complain of Falco's CG in Brawl don't bother to realize that Fox's Thunder's Combo linked with any other combo does basically the same percent and is also unable to be escaped if the Fox is good and have the tech skill required.
Stopped reading right there.

Thunder's Combo is escapable. You just tech the shine.
 

Muro

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 25, 2009
Messages
1,060
Location
Portugal
You can move slightly after you are footstool to make the pikachu have to aim towards you, but the pikachu shoudl be able to react.
what about SDIing the uair, cant it mess up the timing/placement of the footstool and make it harder? even with QCDI?

Muro, start yelling reeeeeeally loudly and pray the Pika has sensitive ears.
lol what? xD
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
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Indianapolis, Indiana
Stopped reading right there.

Thunder's Combo is escapable. You just tech the shine.
Thanks.

Whether or not Thunder's Combo is escapable has nothing to do with the overall point of what I was trying to say. Read the entire post before going, "Oh, one thing's wrong about this, I think I'll nit-pick it and go away."

And what ESAM said.
 

sasook

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
2,338
Location
New York
^ouch, harsh much, sir.

Also, Muro, scream and yell really loudly, and pray the Pika player has sensitive ears. There's your way to help mess up the technique.

If you're playing wifi, pray for lag. If it's a good connection, call him and yell into the phone.

Success!

lol, /ihatethisdiscovery
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,197
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Pika?
I actually did this on wifi, about 4 in a row to death (guy was already at like 40) so beware.
 

Muro

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 25, 2009
Messages
1,060
Location
Portugal
^ouch, harsh much, sir.

Also, Muro, scream and yell really loudly, and pray the Pika player has sensitive ears. There's your way to help mess up the technique.

If you're playing wifi, pray for lag. If it's a good connection, call him and yell into the phone.

Success!

lol, /ihatethisdiscovery
i dont like wifi, as for offline wouldnt an elbow to the chin have the same effect? (could someone answer my last post lol)
 
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