PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[oOTjayOo]

Still not a bad comparison. Air releases do horrible things while Small step Cgs are just Cgs. If you air release Metaknight or squirtle above 80% over the side of any stage without platforms that disrupt you its a easy kill. Also were talking about Charizards Small step Cg. Pfft button mash enough and charizard can probably get around 30% tops across Long stages. If you have extremely fast hands probably even less.

Charizard can only kill ness with a fresh Dtilt at like 180 with bad Di. So thats probably 150 if close to the ledge.

Sheiks GR dacus kills mk at like 110-120
Cfs Gr usmash kills mk at like 130 or somthing.
Tls Gr usmash kills mk at like 110-120

Overall lower percents amirite?

 

[_clinton]

Charizard can only kill ness with a fresh Dtilt at like 180 with bad Di. So thats probably 150 if close to the ledge.

Um, where did you get this info? It is by far lower than 180/150 if you are dealt a sweet spot hit, it is better than what Marth has really with his sour Dsmash or Link's (also sour) Dsmash.

Anyway, I don't know if what D3 does to certain characters is equal to what some other characters like Squirtle, Marth, Charizard, and some others do to Ness/Lucas. With Squirtle being the best at what I just said there.

(Well maybe, while Squirtle's GR distance is by less than those other two, Charizard does have both kill throws and a move that can kill out of the GR, so I feel he has a higher chance at setting up a gimp at higher % than Squirtle, even with the killer Dthrow he has (Marth's throws themselves I don't feel will set up a kill on Ness, but of course he has his Dsmash)).

I mean if you can break out fast enough each time Squirtle and those two others will only be doing like 2-4% per grab because the pummel also gets weaker for each new grab if you use it once during a grab. It also ends if you are lucky to jump release them (which is a lot easier at lower % to get a jump release, especially on Marth who also is the easiest to get a jump release at higher % as well)

And like oOTJay said, the total damage from the GRs can be less than 30% + whatever finisher they may throw out (oh and of course their other moves will be fresh after this).

D3 as far as stale moves go his Dthrow pretty much ends with a 4-5% per throw and he can pummel a bit as well, and of course he pretty much is setting up something at the end of this as well that adds to the damage and could even as well also set up a gimp. Overall I just see D3 doing by far more damage with his than what Ness/Lucas deal with from the certain number of characters that do actually have a regrab. The damage from the CGs is a lot higher, D3's other moves will also be fresh, his other throws do a lot of damage, he also has gimp set ups and ways to pile on more % as well.

Except for DK, because his Fthrow GR doesn't get stale (so 6% each time), he doesn't move at all so it is actually unlimited, and he has a kill move at the end of it. Of course, I've been told that Ness and Lucas can avoid that, but I keep forgetting how so whatever.

Of course, what about Wario's stuff now, doesn't he have a near 0-death on some characters like Bowser or C. Falcon with his Dthrow as well which I guess helps out the fact that he has such a bad air release, or am I mistaken?

I wonder, why is D3's semi infinite stuff banned again (or at least limited based off the number of times you can use it, because I really have no issue with that stuff being limited) but the same isn't said for some of the other characters and stuff like semi infinite GR stuff as well?

 

[Chuee]

Still not a bad comparison. Air releases do horrible things while Small step Cgs are just Cgs. If you air release Metaknight or squirtle above 80% over the side of any stage without platforms that disrupt you its a easy kill. Also were talking about Charizards Small step Cg. Pfft button mash enough and charizard can probably get around 30% tops across Long stages. If you have extremely fast hands probably even less.

Charizard can only kill ness with a fresh Dtilt at like 180 with bad Di. So thats probably 150 if close to the ledge.

Sheiks GR dacus kills mk at like 110-120
Cfs Gr usmash kills mk at like 130 or somthing.
Tls Gr usmash kills mk at like 110-120

Overall lower percents amirite?

No, air releases are still a terrible comparison. With air releases you can get what 2-3 regrabs? And with all but Yoshi you have to stop pummeling early so they get even less damage.
LOL @ dtilt killing at 180%. Don't know what you're smoking.
Where did you get tl at. He can't even force an air release on mk.
Uhh how much damage take depends on where he grabs you. His pummel does 2% and is pretty fast. At low % you can probably escape after 1 pummel but as your % increases the number of pummels he can get before you release increases.
Oh, and did I mention it sets up perfectly for gimps?

Regarding Wario. On some characters he can CG them with dthrow for a lot of damage, sort of like Pika's dthrow cg.

The damage DK does with his doesn't matter because it's an infinite. You can't escape it unless your opponent messes up.

 

[oOTjayOo]

lol u can get about 5-6 grabs with air releases across stages. Also either my brawl disc sucks really bad or idk cuz i just tested that it killed ness at like 180

Also TL can force mk into air release. I saw Jash do it at a tournament.

Also has any1 tested the Di think on charizards release on Ness?
I did with my friend. I Di toward charizard when he tried to do Dtilt so it got sour spoted. Some1 should test this.

 

[Chuee]

lol u can get about 5-6 grabs with air releases across stages.
No you can't. You can get maybe 4 at best, but from those distances you can get A LOT of grabs in a smallstep cg. Like maybe 10-15 grabs ._.
Also either my brawl disc sucks really bad or idk cuz i just tested that it killed ness at like 180
I just tested it at the edge of SV and sweetspot Dtilt killed at 100% (don't know what's the earliest %)

Also TL can force mk into air release. I saw Jash do it at a tournament.
Then the mk chose to air release. TL cannot force an air release because MKs feet touch the ground in the grab animation
Also has any1 tested the Di think on charizards release on Ness?
I did with my friend. I Di toward charizard when he tried to do Dtilt so it got sour spoted. Some1 should test this.
The sourspot on it has almost no knockback. If you try DIing towards him he can regrab you without having to walk forward, so he can do that until he thinks dthrow will kill.

10character

 

[oOTjayOo]

Im pretty sure the the mk didnt choose to air release it happend about twice in the match when jash was ready for a kill.
Air Releases with Yoshi on Mk is 5-4 on certain stages. Its 5 on FD im sure its 4 on SV
Im talking about the Dtilt set up for Gimps.
Dthrow is not the best kill move. Actually if charizard does dthrow it leaves alot of room for ness to recover if we DI up.

It would probably be best if he Fthrew Ness of the stage if we did Di to get the sour spot on Dtilt. Or Jab. We can DI the second or 3rd hits of the jab if we can predict it.

Di towards > Regrab(Ness gets out fast as he can then Di towards again)
That would leave ness pretty safe. Im sure you can Di towards ledges if your released right on the edge of a ledge. I saw some1 do it b4. If charizard dtilts u and u sour spot hes open for fast fall nair fair and maybe uair idk.

 

[Muffinmonkeys]

i thought the match up for mk would be a little more in ness's favor. let me explain.

People have probably known this but pk fire, his b-air and a couple other moves can break into his tornado, if the pk works then he or she stopped the tornado and still has time to get in a good smash or hit.

Thats the only reason, now prove me wrong XD

 

[oOTjayOo]

Ness vs mk is good onstage and pretty bad offstage. When mk gets ness offstage theres no chance he will be making it back onstage.

Fair is really great against tornado
I did Bair on the upper part of tornado and it went through somehow
Dair on top of the tornado goes through
Pk fire wins against all of mks moves accept shuttleloop when timed right. Shuttle look will go right through pk fire like it was a ghost.

the bad side about fighting mk is that his whole move set is faster than Ness but u can out range some of his moves with Fair.
If you play mk the right way you can beat mk with Ness just dont get off stage and time your moves right so you do them b4 mk does.

I had to learn that mk was faster than ness the hard way.

 

[kennypu]

MK has a great advantage over ness. Ness has a lot of moves to overcome meta's tornado, but tornado alone is not what makes MK beastly(jokes aside). one little landing lag, or move lag, he will run across the stage and punish you. his dash grab range is ridiculous, he can spam his down smash, can gimp you easily, etc. pretty much the only way to beat a good mk is to wait for small mistakes and punish him, as you can kill him pretty early anyway.

 

[Yink]

Ness vs mk is good onstage and pretty bad offstage. When mk gets ness offstage theres no chance he will be making it back onstage.

Fair is really great against tornado
I did Bair on the upper part of tornado and it went through somehow
Dair on top of the tornado goes through
Pk fire wins against all of mks moves accept shuttleloop when timed right. Shuttle look will go right through pk fire like it was a ghost.

the bad side about fighting mk is that his whole move set is faster than Ness but u can out range some of his moves with Fair.
If you play mk the right way you can beat mk with Ness just dont get off stage and time your moves right so you do them b4 mk does.

I had to learn that mk was faster than ness the hard way.

If you know what you're doing you can make it back onstage, just don't get thrown off at like 30%.

So, Tornado:

1. If I remember this correctly anything that hits from the top of the tornado hits MK, hence why your bair and dair worked Tjay. I know for a fact I've seen Snakes drop grenades in there before. I might (probably) be wrong though.

2. Just use fair or shield, at least that's what I think you should do.

What to do (what ken already basically pointed out). This matchup is a nightmare because if you make a mistake it could mean you go offstage and can be gimped. You have to either be really aggressive and catch the MK by surprise (which I don't think I'd recommend) or play patiently and wait for a mistake.

The ONLY saving grace Ness really has is that he can kill fast and can kill MK pretty early. Save up that bthrow and don't be super obvious about it, or else you could get read and punished for it. bair if need be, etc I assume you know Ness' kill moves.

 

[kennypu]

also, a small 2cent for you guys.

this is something I read on the diddy boards, but it works with any1 pretty much. if you are above metaknight, and he tornados, unless you know what you are doing, don't dair, or bair. Don't dair in ness's case because his dair's start up time is a bit slow, so unless you know you're going to hit him, he will probably get you first.

instead, fast fall fair. it sounds weird, but they will get hit by it.

 

[HailCrest]

i was thinking ness' nair would be better if you get caught in the tornado since its priority and startup is the pwnz. SDI up, nair.

 

[oOTjayOo]

Kennys pretty right. Mk is pretty much the god tier character with no mistakes. Ive played Mks that run in and do dumb stuff then theres the ones that wait and be mad patient. A patient mk is probably the worst enemy for ness or any other character without the camping game like falcos. When a good mk messes up or approaches thats when I would start thinking of options. When you try to approach mk he has many ways to punish.
Grab releasing Ness across the stage with mk is a free kill if they can time it right. Some1 grab released me across the stage then Dsmashed after the release on the ledge. Got gimped on the way back to the stage.
I would just say be perfect about everything when fighting mk with Ness. Time everything right don't get hit, don't get grabed, save your second jump and use it wisely, don't let mk get under you thats a huge weak spot.
I would probably never use Dthrow on Mk
Try do to Fair right after his dthrow unless you know hes going to do a tornado
Never do uthrow
Id just stick to bthrow when you know it can kill and fthrow whenever you get the chance.
No tilting
No smashing
Just trying to get by with some aireals pk fires and grabs.

 

[kennypu]

if you're fighting a grab happy mk (because they have a WTF-long dash grab), just expect when they will grab you, and do a retreating pivot grab. you will grab them instead of them grabbing you. I will never fight a mk using ness during tourneys (unless I'm going brinstar), but if you do, mix it up. play patient for one second punishing what they do, then the next second read when they will try to air camp in put in a few aerial moves in them. then run away again. doing this will rack up damage faster, and it will keep them coming for you. use your pk thunder to you advantage too, but don't spam it, or leave it out too long so that they can punish you. lastly, try to master the timing of when to spike them out of their shuttle loop. really easy kills from that.

 

[oOTjayOo]

Brinstar is ok against mk but if you get hit with a uair string and shuttle offstage u die faster. I think Brinstar would mean you have to be up on you stage control. Control the stage with your moves and Camp the platforms. It saves me some time. Using pk thunder 2 to hit people is safer on brinstar than other stages as well. If brinstar is banned I would probably go to Fd or battle feild. Not delfino because if mk grabs you once he Cgs you on the walkoffs and he controls the water very well. Dairing you until he shuttles you right out of the water making you lose a stock.Hitting mk with pk thunder 1 while hes offstage a long ways is good. On stage they will nado right through it. I think theres a spot at the top that makes pk thunder hit nado. Just hit the top of nado with the head of pk thunder. Idk bout all the tail business i think the whip works. To get shuttle look i just Shield to full hop nair or uair oos. Offstage theres really nothing you can do about it since spiking shuttle loop is like a 1 time chance. When mk is dair camping me i just jump and fair camp him while being on the side of him.

 

[kennypu]

Brinstar is ok against mk but if you get hit with a uair string and shuttle offstage u die faster. I think Brinstar would mean you have to be up on you stage control. Control the stage with your moves and Camp the platforms. It saves me some time. Using pk thunder 2 to hit people is safer on brinstar than other stages as well. If brinstar is banned I would probably go to Fd or battle feild. Not delfino because if mk grabs you once he Cgs you on the walkoffs and he controls the water very well. Dairing you until he shuttles you right out of the water making you lose a stock.Hitting mk with pk thunder 1 while hes offstage a long ways is good. On stage they will nado right through it. I think theres a spot at the top that makes pk thunder hit nado. Just hit the top of nado with the head of pk thunder. Idk bout all the tail business i think the whip works. To get shuttle look i just Shield to full hop nair or uair oos. Offstage theres really nothing you can do about it since spiking shuttle loop is like a 1 time chance. When mk is dair camping me i just jump and fair camp him while being on the side of him.

I just posted a video in the video thread of a match I had 2 days ago at a tourney fighting MK on brinstar, should watch it. It should give a good summary of how to fight a mk, and also what not to do/what can happen as seen on my last stock.

 

[oOTjayOo]

I need to update it ive had no internet for some time now. leme get started.

 

[KrayzeeGuy]

Please excuse this if this is in the wrong area, I haven't been to this board in a long time.

Call this a shot from left field, but being a Ness main and fighting a very annoying and very predicting Pikachu player, I think Ness honest to goodness has a few tricks up his sleeve enough to bring his arrangement against Pikachu up to 55/45 Ness's favor.

The reasoning behind this is basic, nothing too fancy, but Pikachu is highly dependant on how a majority of characters are tall in stature and their attacks have lower priority when it comes to lower hits, ie) forward smashes taking longer to hit lower. Ness dodges this category with his bat, and his height in general.

Pikamping isn't possible either because of Ness's PSI Shield, but that's just plain obvious.

Pikachu's special moves are no threat to Ness because Pikachu's Skull Bash will usually go overhead (or be an easy down-dodge) at full power, or just require a dodge and swing if any less. Not to mention obvious Thunder is obvious and if it got any more obvious you could PSI Shield all day.

Pikachu's smashes are pretty stellar, don't get me wrong, his down smash is defensive enough for any player in general to rip their hair out.

Less cunning players tend to spam down smashes, but more cunning will shield then use the spare frames to get a down smash in, Ness's defensive game though requires a bit more prodding than Pikachu can give, because of Ness's bat speed and length, it should either cancel out the down smash or hit Pikachu if done prematurely.

I can understand though if the equality for Pikachu and Ness comes from aerial attacks, but I find that Ness has more priority with a majority of his aerials. The only way I can imagine a Pikachu user stopping a Ness from recovering, or an aerial, is with a nice 45 degree Thunderjolt, or jumping down and risking PK Thunder-tackle death.

I have a feeling this entire thing will be blown away in at least two posts because I know for a fact you guys have psychic powers and totally have like, a two page explanation of why I'm wrong, lol.

 

[Eagleye893]

Please excuse this if this is in the wrong area, I haven't been to this board in a long time.

Call this a shot from left field, but being a Ness main and fighting a very annoying and very predicting Pikachu player, I think Ness honest to goodness has a few tricks up his sleeve enough to bring his arrangement against Pikachu up to 55/45 Ness's favor.

The reasoning behind this is basic, nothing too fancy, but Pikachu is highly dependant on how a majority of characters are tall in stature and their attacks have lower priority when it comes to lower hits, ie) forward smashes taking longer to hit lower. Ness dodges this category with his bat, and his height in general.

Pikamping isn't possible either because of Ness's PSI Shield, but that's just plain obvious.

Pikachu's special moves are no threat to Ness because Pikachu's Skull Bash will usually go overhead (or be an easy down-dodge) at full power, or just require a dodge and swing if any less. Not to mention obvious Thunder is obvious and if it got any more obvious you could PSI Shield all day.

Pikachu's smashes are pretty stellar, don't get me wrong, his down smash is defensive enough for any player in general to rip their hair out.

Less cunning players tend to spam down smashes, but more cunning will shield then use the spare frames to get a down smash in, Ness's defensive game though requires a bit more prodding than Pikachu can give, because of Ness's bat speed and length, it should either cancel out the down smash or hit Pikachu if done prematurely.

I can understand though if the equality for Pikachu and Ness comes from aerial attacks, but I find that Ness has more priority with a majority of his aerials. The only way I can imagine a Pikachu user stopping a Ness from recovering, or an aerial, is with a nice 45 degree Thunderjolt, or jumping down and risking PK Thunder-tackle death.

I have a feeling this entire thing will be blown away in at least two posts because I know for a fact you guys have psychic powers and totally have like, a two page explanation of why I'm wrong, lol.

the thing is, you haven't seen anther play.... He's mad good. I can say that safely, and the last time I saw him play was a year ago.

 

[_clinton]

I personally feel Ness vs. Pikachu is in Ness' favor as well to a point, but whatever.

 

[milesg2g]

Been a while since I've seen this thread lol.

 

[Yink]

Yeah and next monday we're picking up where we left off lol.

 

[milesg2g]

Yeah and next monday we're picking up where we left off lol.

NO NOW!

SNAKE:NESS 60:40 NESS

Done.

 

[Yink]

Wtf lol. We're not starting high, we're working from low to high. SO STOP IT.

Also that matchup is fun IMO.

 

[milesg2g]

Wtf lol. We're not starting high, we're working from low to high. SO STOP IT.

Also that matchup is fun IMO.

The most fun in the game imo.

 

[Eagleye893]

Ness vs. Ness?

Ness vs. MK?

 

[_clinton]

Ness vs. Lucas?

 

[milesg2g]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan Idk but these kids on wifi are starting to get mad lol. They're actually getting ready to consider Ness as a wifi character due to my success like idk what to say lol. He's so *** online.

 

[_clinton]

Show them Shaky videos or FOW videos

 

[milesg2g]

Show them Shaky videos or FOW videos

IK it's really starting to piss me the **** off. They're saying that I'm only winning because of Ness being a wifi character when that's totally not the case.

 

[Eagleye893]

IK it's really starting to piss me the **** off. They're saying that I'm only winning because of Ness being a wifi character when that's totally not the case.

lol xD thats like the reason you wouldn't be winning a wifi match. xD

also, you know how someone was being dumb in their score reporting with you on the AiB ladder? someone did that to me today... -.- some people...

 

[milesg2g]

lol xD thats like the reason you wouldn't be winning a wifi match. xD

also, you know how someone was being dumb in their score reporting with you on the AiB ladder? someone did that to me today... -.- some people...

I got my score. 77+ points ^_^

 

[_clinton]

also, you know how someone was being dumb in their score reporting with you on the AiB ladder? someone did that to me today... -.- some people...

What happened?

 

[Eagleye893]

Okay, I played this one guy. He went lucario the first match (idiotic against my psimagnet mastery, right?) and I got a couple lucky breaks and won. Second match It wAs the same but on a different stage. I was careless and ran into millions of aura spheres in the last stock. Every other part I absorbed though. Then he goes mk as I cp brinstar. We both go last stock and I get a break with a fairly lucky spike outta his shuttle loop. I say ggs and that they were close matches, but he just sent the score as his win (conflicting with my report) and signed outta the chat. I kept asking him why he reported the wrong score as he re-entered the chat, but he kept signing off.

Cowardly, idiotic people. Once you mess with me, you get the full force of my fury. I don't take such things lightly. I like it when things are all fair.

 

[milesg2g]

People are being really stingy on wifi ladders and don't like losing to Ness mains apparently.

 

[_clinton]

I've had some fun with them. At least 10 or so people just off the top of my head have commented about how awesome my control over PKT is.

 

[milesg2g]

I've had some fun with them. At least 10 or so people just off the top of my head have commented about how awesome my control over PKT is.

How do you do that in lag though? It's hard as **** lol.

 

[_clinton]

I don't always have to deal with a lot of lag because overall my connection is good. Trust me, when the game is slow I **** up thunder a lot as well when trying do stuff like recover.

 

[KrayzeeGuy]

Lag really does kill PK Thunder unless it's in the usual quick-loop E-Z Recovery. Personally I prefer good connection for my matches *states obvious*.

On topic though for if Monday is the restart for discussion, I'd really like to go into Pikachu vs. Ness MU, it really seems that Ness has some quarter against Pikachu.

 

[milesg2g]

Lag really does kill PK Thunder unless it's in the usual quick-loop E-Z Recovery. Personally I prefer good connection for my matches *states obvious*.

On topic though for if Monday is the restart for discussion, I'd really like to go into Pikachu vs. Ness MU, it really seems that Ness has some quarter against Pikachu.

Maaaaaaaaaan I'm really starting question a lot of Ness' MU's. He should be way higher on the Tier List imo. I'm not just saying that because he's cool I'm saying that because he's a really good character regardless.