*pound* 5

[j3ly]

I gotta pay 1000$ish in something. I sure needed to win some money.

that figure makes me rethink some of what i sad.. ally - i hope you can recover from this situation. thats hopefully an extream example but also fuuuuuucccked

 

[leffen]

didnt he give himself mango first player in bracket this time around? After everyone blaming him for bracket rigging @P4... certainly a sure-fire way to get rid of any doubt there.... which only makes me more suspicious tbh.

Also... did he ever make a traceable statement to why he would quit smash / stop hosting pounds? I think not lol.

 

[Pierce7d]

He's moving across the country if I recall correctly.

SUSPECT? I think so.

 

[kirbyraeg]

goddamn.

I don't know much about this situation, but...chill out guys, just give him the benefit of the doubt for about a week. THEN start jumping down plank's throat again if he hasn't said anything on how he's going to get you your money and how exactly it was all spent by then.

 

[DJRome]

he has already said that he is not planning on paying out

i mean plank could in theory be planning a large post with how he's going to resolve the situation correctly. we'll see

 

[Dorsey]

epic justice to the creator of planking.
i'm a law student - granted a uk law student, but if people in the payout bracket were that intent on a payout, they should have gotten plank to sign something. just saying - i dont think anyone can do jack **** legally and plank has the moral high ground (imo) too, because that money was given to him in good faith. dunno if you guys use that term over in the states.

This is how I see it:

When you pay to enter a smash tournament... you receive a service. It's a contract in itself. Money for service. Plank has already made it clear in his initial post that payouts(prize money) was a part of this service, initially. He didn't keep his side of the bargain. If a dozen people all take plank to court, all with the same story(him owning them $$$$$$) and with a copy of that post, he should lose in court.

Or am I missing something?

 

[AllyKnight]

Sandbagging Mango round 1 lolol

Hes moving to WC.

 

[Nitrix]

Defending Plank is ridiculous

If you mess up, you don't use the resources of others to fix your mistake. There is no excuse for this behavior, this is stealing pure and simple.

Pound was advertised as a tournament, not a smash-fest. The winners deserve their payout.

 

[kirbyraeg]

he has already said that he is not planning on paying out

i mean plank could in theory be planning a large post with how he's going to resolve the situation correctly. we'll see

lol exactly

we should temporarily chill out and then start calling him a grimy *** if he doesn't actually respond to you guys after you give him a bit more time. niceness first, since i bet he's feeling the pain of failing to organize and calculate things out properly and suffering for it more than any individual person is feeling the loss of their winnings.

 

[DJRome]

well, he already deserves **** for spending the money without telling anyone and also not making his mistakes public as soon as he thought there might be trouble

 

[kirbyraeg]

idk, basically just throwing out that even though it's been 2 weeks, he might still be trying his hardest to fix things and doesn't want to post until it's fixed because he's worried about the reaction to a post that says "hey I started working on your problem now, but it won't be fixed any time soon". That's almost blindly optimistic, but it might be true?

 

[Nitrix]

idk, basically just throwing out that even though it's been 2 weeks, he might still be trying his hardest to fix things and doesn't want to post until it's fixed because he's worried about the reaction to a post that says "hey I started working on your problem now, but it won't be fixed any time soon". That's almost blindly optimistic, but it might be true?

I think people would be a lot happier if he said something like that, rather than complete silence. Why leave the possibility of "I will completely screw you over" out in the open?

 

[DJRome]

i mean, ur not going to stop a community from discussion and speculation if that's your goal

 

[Pierce7d]

Defending Plank is ridiculous

If you mess up, you don't use the resources of others to fix your mistake. There is no excuse for this behavior, this is stealing pure and simple.

Pound was advertised as a tournament, not a smash-fest. The winners deserve their payout.

well, he already deserves **** for spending the money without telling anyone and also not making his mistakes public as soon as he thought there might be trouble

I think people would be a lot happier if he said something like that, rather than complete silence. Why leave the possibility of "I will completely screw you over" out in the open?

i mean, ur not going to stop a community from discussion and speculation if that's your goal

All QFT

lol exactly

we should temporarily chill out and then start calling him a grimy *** if he doesn't actually respond to you guys after you give him a bit more time. niceness first, since i bet he's feeling the pain of failing to organize and calculate things out properly and suffering for it more than any individual person is feeling the loss of their winnings.

Armada says hi. He lost 2.5k, compared to Plank's SUPPOSED 1k loss. He stole Armada's money to minimize his own losses. Armada flew here from Europe, and borrowed money for Genesis after he was TOLD he was getting paid, so now he is in debt, while Plank has eliminated his own debt by stealing Armada's money.

And you think Plank is suffering the worst? Not at all bro.

 

[NeutralDamage]

He got the money, and run. We all should just get over it now. He was smarter. I know it hurts to admit that someone was "smarter" and did that, but he just owned a lot of people like JV5-stock almost.

On a more serious note, I hope the situation resolves and I hope Plank won't do anything stupid now like suicide or anything like that, I know how much the scene meant to him and so on.. ( I know people have killed themselves for less than that).

But yeah, if Plank owes 10k now, that ain't so much to take a loan and pay people back that money. He should just.. well you know.. do it?

 

[Laijin]

10k is a huge loan.
And plank doesn't have an incredibly awesome job to just well..pay the amount he "owes"

 

[LLDL]

I don't understand why plank said that there is absolutely nothing he can do. I don't understand why he just didn't say "I messed up, the pots will not be paid out anytime soon, however I will get a job and pay each player who placed in the money over time with each paycheck, starting with the lower placing players". That's the very first thing any honest person would do imo. Instead, he just says no? What?

 

[W.A.S.T.E.]

I did not attend Pound nor do I have any experience with organizing tournaments, but it does seem like Plank overstepped certain ethical boundaries. I n this situation, the transactions and agreements made between a TO and the attending players are not regulated by contract. Normally, this would not be a major issue since it's the nature of the Melee community to be rather close knit and informal, but it is definitely a problem now.

The well established de facto policy governing all national, regional, and local tournaments is that the winners WILL receive a payout for their placings and this money is to come from the tournament fee. There is nothing contractual obligating the TO to actually give the money to the players, but every TO usually does because it is the proper thing to do. Contract or not, this is the way things are understood to function.

A venue fee exists to help with the cost of the venue and all related, extraneous costs. Since we are working with de facto regulations in this situation, isn't always presumed that an 'underground' TO is taking up the risk of a weak tournament himself? I assumed that was why non-corporate TO's were admired. They allow a specific community to persist at the risk of incurring debt onto themselves.

The appropriate response from Plank would have been to let the community know about the problem from the very beginning, but make it clear to the winning players that they would receive their payout and then proceed to actually pay it out. I'm certain there are friends of his and other generous smasher's that would have done something to help him with the situation. As it is now, Plank took the victory money without the winner's consent to help himself out of a hole he presumably knew he stood a chance of falling into before the event was even generated.

However, given that the exchanges between Plank and all other players were unregulated by anything remotely binding, he can very well take the money without any legal, tangible repercussion. The situation can really be broken down to this:

A bunch of teenagers and young adults/adults entered a tournament and gave their money to one guy and informally agreed that part of their money would go to the winners of the tournament. There is nothing requiring the guy to give any money back to anyone , not even the winners. However, a common sense understanding of tournaments is that money will go to winner. It is expected.

It turns out the guy dug himself into a hole organizing the tournament and making risky formal agreements with real life businesses. He used all the money to help himself out. He has disappeared from the internet and is not giving any money to anyone. No one can do anything about it.

 

[mallu000]

I'm really curious to know if there's been any discussion on how to avoid this kind of things in the future. Like I stated on the other topic regarding M2K's losses among others even before PoundV. Why don't you change your way of organizing these events if people had got screwed before several times? When talking about sums like 1.000 $ or 2.000 $ it doesn't make any sense to just trust someone to pay you without any kind of mutual agreement on writing. That's like asking for someone to screw you all over. To me it doesn't make any sense not to have everything on writing or at least pay in cash right after the tournament or something.

I talked about this whole incident with a friend of mine who's really familiar with esports, how these things usually work and he said it's just ridiculous how this was handled. One guy responsible for all the money and stuff, nothing on writing and everything based solely on the promise of this one guy to pay after X amount of time. Basically he just laughed so hard and said the players and everybody had it coming. He said that if there's this much people and money involved, you shouldn't do anything without some kind of legal partnership and I heavily agree.

All I'm saying that the way to organize things is stupid and asking for trouble especially if you're seriously expecting profit as a player and really trying to make it as a pro gamer or some thing like that than you got to change.

 

[Laijin]

I'm really curious to know if there's been any discussion on how to avoid this kind of things in the future. Like I stated on the other topic regarding M2K's losses among others even before PoundV. Why don't you change your way of organizing these events if people had got screwed before several times? When talking about sums like 1.000 $ or 2.000 $ it doesn't make any sense to just trust someone to pay you without any kind of mutual agreement on writing. That's like asking for someone to screw you all over. To me it doesn't make any sense not to have everything on writing or at least pay in cash right after the tournament or something.

I talked about this whole incident with a friend of mine who's really familiar with esports, how these things usually work and he said it's just ridiculous how this was handled. One guy responsible for all the money and stuff, nothing on writing and everything based solely on the promise of this one guy to pay after X amount of time. Basically he just laughed so hard and said the players and everybody had it coming. He said that if there's this much people and money involved, you shouldn't do anything without some kind of legal partnership and I heavily agree.

All I'm saying that the way to organize things is stupid and asking for trouble especially if you're seriously expecting profit as a player and really trying to make it as a pro gamer or some thing like that than you got to change.

See here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=292064&page=14
The entire thread is basically a discussion of ethics and how things should be done. Feel free to read. its a good read

 

[DJRome]

10k is a huge loan.
And plank doesn't have an incredibly awesome job to just well..pay the amount he "owes"

so explain why he doesn't "owe" this prize money again?

 

[Laijin]

so explain why he doesn't "owe" this prize money again?

I don't think I ever said he doesn't "owe" the prize money. Go back and reread my post.

 

[ANTi_]

I'll be satisfied if he gets arrested.

Let's do it.

EDIT : And Laijin you put the word owe in quotations which implies that he doesn't owe us money, which he does...

 

[Laijin]

How does that imply he doesn't owe you money.
I put it quotations because him owing you money is 100% subjective. I'm not saying he shouldn't pay you your money. I'm saying theres an argument against him being 100% obligated to you your money and until thats disproved, he doesn't really owe you anything. Its more of a matter of he morally should pay you the money.

 

[DJRome]

then ur just confused. he 100% owes the winners their money

 

[Pi]

Did you even read my post?

Um. yes.
Saying 'it was already agreed upon' is meaningless.
Just because that's how things are generally done, doesn't mean that's how they'll always play out. Ideally yes the tournament fee's would have gone to the winners, but obviously that situation didn't play out as intended. There was nothing signed or 'agreed' upon saying that that's exactly the way the funds were going to be distributed.

What are you trying to do? Please, explain your intent clearly.

Basically I'm saying that even though what plank did was a mistake, the players based it all on good faith, and nothing more. They assumed that that was how things were going to play out, nothing was set in stone as to how the funds were to be distributed, it was just based off of how things are generally done.

Please clarify a situation where someone expected a return of money they didn't actually earn. No one came to Pound expecting it to pay the bills. However, after the tournament victors were decided, they had EVERY RIGHT to expect their winnings. Also, if the concept of "The pot is comprised of the entry fees" wasn't relatively concrete, this game's competitive scene wouldn't exist.

I don't remember any mention of the pot or how it would be distributed, sure that's how things usually are, but it's not like this is the first time something like this has happened, not saying this is to be expected from tournaments now, but it's always been a possibility. If you're allocating more funds than you care to spend into going to something like this and planning on receiving money back through placing well in the tournament you might want to be crystal clear on how exactly things are being handled.

But he did it, that was HIS CHOICE. Also, I'm pretty sure he guaranteed a refund.

Uh, either way, he did not have to refund people's money, he did it because generally he's a good guy. That's why I mentioned it.

okay . . . stating intention of attendance and not coming is detrimental to the planning of any event, but one of the reasons WHY we have pre-registration is so that this isn't an issue. This is something the planner of any event should know to compensate for.

However so many people cancelled their rooms or no-showed the weekend of the tournament that it dropped the room rental down below the threshhold and I got charged EVEN MORE (the money I planned on paying entrants).

He can't force people to pre-reg rooms online. Regging for the tournament and regging for the hotel are seperate things, plank had it on good faith that people would be staying at the venue cause that's all he could do.

The money generated to pay the winners is SEPARATE from the money generated to pay tournament expenses. This is why VENUE FEE and TOURNAMENT ENTRY FEE are listed as TWO SEPARATE FEES. The tournament entry fee PAYS THE WINNERS. Just because Plank screwed up does not give him the right to steal money from the winners. It means there wasn't enough money to FUND THE TOURNAMENT. As the person who rented the venue, this is a debt that PLANK has incurred.

Generally & ideally yes, but **** hit the fan and it didn't play out that way. There is nothing written down about how tournament funds should always be distributed. Some tournaments have venue fee's, some tourneys dip into the pot to pay for the venue, in this case both happened.

And what exactly would these contracts say? If anything, that would be fine, if the contracts said "If you top the tournament, you have a right to your winnings, which is calculated as follows . . . number of entrants multiplied by the entry fee, multiplied by a decimal based on the percentage earned by your placing."

If you tried to draw up a contract stating that the tournament entry fee belonged to the tournament organizer, nobody would go to your tournament.

A contract to state exactly how funds are going to be distributed among the tournament expenses, and prize winnings. As well as behavior, conduct, tardiness, etc. whilst being in the tournament venue.

If you tried to draw up a contract stating that the tournament entry fee belonged to the tournament organizer, nobody would go to your tournament.

Well yes, exactly, but this wasn't the intention of plank or any TO. I'm just saying if a contract was made and signed by players they would have something to stand on as far as what happened here. If they signed something stating that their venue fee was going to pay for the expenses of the venue, and that the tournament fee was going directly and explicitly to the winners of the tournament, then there would be absolutely no ****storm. Plank would be ****ed, in the hole $x,xxx, the winners would have their winnings, and there would probably be donation threads for plank.

I have no qualms with forcing people to abide to certain behaviors, tardiness (which I assume the penalty would be DQ), etc. This just causes the event to run more smoothly. Actually, MLG DID have this.

How old are you?

I am 20

Are you serious? I'm not just "assuming" a payout. I took my money that I earned with my job, and put it into the pot. This means that I'm expecting this money to go to the winners of the tournament. In exchange, I can ENTER the tournament, and have a shot at that money. This is how it works.

'This means', why does that mean that. Where did it state that that is what would happen, you assumed it.

Now, Plank made a contract with the hotel, expecting to fill a certain number of rooms, and encouraging us not to steal. However, this was a DUMB IDEA, because it was pretty obvious that people were going to cuddle up in few hotel rooms. It was his decision to make such a foolish contract with the hotel. That does not give him the right to steal money from the pot.

Not saying it does (though I refuse to call it stealing), but the community does need to be called out on this.

Plank's miscalculation is his own problem to deal with. He can ask for our help to compensate, but he should not steal money from us to fix his problem.

We do not owe money to Plank for not showing up/cramming hotel rooms, because he was not SELLING THE HOTEL SERVICES. We owe that money to the hotel. If the hotel owners were to come in here and accuse us all of stealing from them, I would have no defenses against such accusations. However, right now, I'm more concerned with the fact that Plank has stolen from us.

Plank himself said that he saw people cramming rooms, if he were an ******* he could have informed the hotel staff and had people kicked out. But he didn't. Plank took us as his responsibility. You can link it directly from us to the hotel but in reality we ****ed over plank, and ourselfs, by doing this. If the hotel looked to us instead of plank to pay for the debt than the winners would get paid, but that's not the case because we were planks responsibility.

I'll be satisfied if he gets arrested.

Let's do it.

EDIT : And Laijin you put the word owe in quotations which implies that he doesn't owe us money, which he does...

Will not happen.

 

[Omni]

lol, if he's in jail you don't get paid, Anti.

think green; not mean!

 

[DeLux]

You can be jailed and be forced to pay damages for whatever criminal offense it is.

 

[ANTi_]

lol, if he's in jail you don't get paid, Anti.

think green; not mean!

I don't care.

I wanna see him suffer through rough times.

He could easily be lying to us and pocketed the dough.

No one knows ANYTHING.

 

[Mike G]

I don't care.

I wanna see him suffer through rough times.

He could easily be lying to us and pocketed the dough.

No one knows ANYTHING.

Well if you don't know anything why do you want him to suffer so much?


settle down, dude.

 

[AllyKnight]

I'm sure Plank said he'd be checking every room (thats what he told me) to make sure no one scrams more than 4 people in each room

I guess Plank tried to scare us and got back fired because of this. Way to go right guys?

 

[ANTi_]

Well if you don't know anything why do you want him to suffer so much?


settle down, dude.

Either way he stole from us, and from what i hear nowadays stealing is illegal...

Break the law, go to jail.

People = Happy.

I know it won't get me my money back but w/e. I'd rather not see a thief roam free and do as he pleases.

 

[Mike G]

what ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty?" lol

I guess in plank's case, it's not looking so good though. =/

 

[Xyro77]

Im more mad that because plank didnt pay anti.........anti cant come to whobo 3!

THAT IS THE ULTIMATE CRIME!!!!

 

[Pi]

what ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty?" lol

He's clearly guilty bro, pocketed the money and is toking it up in Amsterdam w/ some hot Amsterdam *****es.

 

[ANTi_]

what ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty?" lol

So if you were in my position, what would you do?

Don't give me some bull**** response.

 

[Mike G]

Well he's guilty for not taking me with him then


ANTI: I'd find out what the deal is before throwing around random posts on the boards about "I'm going to sue. **** that *****"

 

[Charlesz]

what ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty?" lol

I guess in plank's case, it's not looking so good though. =/

He's already guilty, he admitted that himself. The onus is on him to make things right.

 

[ANTi_]

Well he's guilty for not taking me with him then


ANTI: I'd find out what the deal is before throwing around random posts on the boards about "I'm going to sue. **** that *****"

Seems like a half-***** response, especially since i know your good friends with Wes' crazy ***.

But w/e, that's you.

 

[Mike G]

I'd say more but I'm on my itouch johns atm lol


Charlesz

He said he had to use money from the pot to pay the debts to the hotel or w/e but People are accusing him of pocketing the money and we aren't sure if that's the case yet.


w/e I'm done lol I have class soon