PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Sinji]

I like falco dittos based off of the player's execution. If the falco finishes off their opponent on time (mango) then I respect that falco.

Falcon dittos in terms of a campy falco vs a rush down falcon is interesting to watch.

Nice to hear from Brookman again.

 

[Dr Peepee]

dear PP,

check my **** on fb when you get a chance.

your friend,
mike brookman


/logs off indefinitely

GUHHH totally forgot. I'll do that tonight. XD

.....make that tomorrow. I'm tired lol



I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people are saying that Axe's/Armada's Falcos could beat me, so I'll just leave that alone I suppose.


Dittos tend to bring out how people play and mess with it more. If people play Falcon gay then Falcon dittos suck because it's just Nair spacing battles or something similar lol. If you like comboing a FF'er with no shine to death, then this matchup is pretty darn awesome lol. Personally, Falco dittos are kind of tough for me because I'm not used to having little time to think about my next move. Thinking quickly and being able to play more aggressively when needed is good for me though, so I'm glad the Falco ditto exists, even if it challenges my core of how to play Melee. Gay Falco dittos are the WORST though lmao. Feels so awkward. XD


I edgeguard pretty well with Marth onstage or offstage, but yeah going out there is mad fun haha.

 

[Divinokage]

There should be always a solution for everything someone does so playing gay for me no longer exists. I honestly always feel like when someone says something is gay then that means generally they can't deal with it. Imo it needs to stop.

 

[CK Momentum]

GUHHH totally forgot. I'll do that tonight. XD



I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people are saying that Axe's/Armada's Falcos could beat me, so I'll just leave that alone I suppose.


Dittos tend to bring out how people play and mess with it more. If people play Falcon gay then Falcon dittos suck because it's just Nair spacing battles or something similar lol. If you like comboing a FF'er with no shine to death, then this matchup is pretty darn awesome lol. Personally, Falco dittos are kind of tough for me because I'm not used to having little time to think about my next move. Thinking quickly and being able to play more aggressively when needed is good for me though, so I'm glad the Falco ditto exists, even if it challenges my core of how to play Melee. Gay Falco dittos are the WORST though lmao. Feels so awkward. XD


I edgeguard pretty well with Marth onstage or offstage, but yeah going out there is mad fun haha.

Dr. PP I'll help you train at apex ;] Also Dr. PP, I'll try and do some research on what you can do to physically increase your reaction time, besides taking speed before the tournament. Look for that sometime around Monday, since I have finals (ughughgughg). Maybe you could play Pop N Music, or Beatmania or something. 70% serious there. But the real answer probably lies in proper nutrition.

There should be always a solution for everything someone does so playing gay for me no longer exists. I honestly always feel like when someone says something is gay then that means generally they can't deal with it. Imo it needs to stop.

That's gay. :] Team Fashion Sense Back Room knows whats up. :]]

 

[onionchowder]

Dittos tend to put a lot of emphasis on the notable qualities a character has, often in a bad way. Monotonous Bair-spam Jiggs dittos are a great example, as are high-octane Fox dittos or Nair-camping Falcon dittos. Perhaps most notably, ICs dittos are nothing like any of their other matchups. I believe that mirrors are generally a poor way to judge skill at a character, since the skills emphasized in the ditto matchup are often different than the skills used in an asymmetric matchup.

This trend is seen in other games as well. In SC2, the mirror matchups are the most unstable matchups (with the exception of TvT, which is still pretty weird as far as matchups go).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr. PP I'll help you train at apex ;] Also Dr. PP, I'll try and do some research on what you can do to physically increase your reaction time, besides taking speed before the tournament. Look for that sometime around Monday, since I have finals (ughughgughg). Maybe you could play Pop N Music, or Beatmania or something. 70% serious there. But the real answer probably lies in proper nutrition.

Haha my reaction time is fine enough. I just need to apply it well I believe. It's all in my head already, I've seen it. =p

I should probably train my reaction time just because though. Focusing on playing more reactively while playing is certainly a great way to get there.

Dittos tend to put a lot of emphasis on the notable qualities a character has, often in a bad way. Monotonous Bair-spam Jiggs dittos are a great example, as are high-octane Fox dittos or Nair-camping Falcon dittos. Perhaps most notably, ICs dittos are nothing like any of their other matchups. I believe that mirrors are generally a poor way to judge skill at a character, since the skills emphasized in the ditto matchup are often different than the skills used in an asymmetric matchup.

This trend is seen in other games as well. In SC2, the mirror matchups are the most unstable matchups (with the exception of TvT, which is still pretty weird as far as matchups go).

Well sure it's unstable since everyone has similar options, but does that make it a bad judge of skill? Could being in control more often of an unstable matchup prove one's merit as a player(more than another matchup, at the least)?

 

[Sinji]

GUHHH totally forgot. I'll do that tonight. XD



Personally, Falco dittos are kind of tough for me because I'm not used to having little time to think about my next move. Thinking quickly and being able to play more aggressively when needed is good for me though, so I'm glad the Falco ditto exists, even if it challenges my core of how to play Melee. Gay Falco dittos are the WORST though lmao. Feels so awkward. XD

I had the same problem earlier this year. I had trouble with falco dittos till I took the matchup in much more of a aggressive approach. Dair> dsmash mostly. I use fsmash to negate their up b sweet spot edge.

 

[tarheeljks]

disagree with using dittos as a "better player" barometer. i see the appeal for using them as such b/c they are inherently even on paper, but they are still just one matchup. player tendencies will naturally make some people better/worse in particular matchups; could be the case against your own character. to give a (relatively) recent example, at an ownapalooza in the late winter/early spring waffles and shroomed doc dittoed. waffles beat him twice, and pretty convincingly iirc, and then shroomed went marth/sheik and won the set. waffles has typically had the edge over shroomed in the ditto, but both would agree shroomed is the better player

 

[FoxLisk]

Dittos tend to put a lot of emphasis on the notable qualities a character has, often in a bad way. Monotonous Bair-spam Jiggs dittos are a great example, as are high-octane Fox dittos or Nair-camping Falcon dittos. Perhaps most notably, ICs dittos are nothing like any of their other matchups. I believe that mirrors are generally a poor way to judge skill at a character, since the skills emphasized in the ditto matchup are often different than the skills used in an asymmetric matchup.

This trend is seen in other games as well. In SC2, the mirror matchups are the most unstable matchups (with the exception of TvT, which is still pretty weird as far as matchups go).

but SC2 is fundamentally different from SSBM in about a million different ways that make this particular analogy fairly moot. PvP is unstable (or was, anyway) because you have to 4gate because if you dont the other guy 4gates, so every game is a 4gate which influences the whole course of the game. ZvZ is unstable because if you get greedy you just absolutely lose to someone who goes for an early pool and that similarly influences the whole course of the game. Falco v Falco isnt like that because if you go aggressive early on you don't have to stick with it forever because there's no economy.

 

[CK Momentum]

So Dr. Peep, I found this article which generally outlines the things that improve/diminish your reaction speed. You basically fit into all the "good" categories, which include but aren't limited to

1. being a male
2. college aged
3. Don't have a brain injury
4. Anxious about what you're doing. ( can't say definitively but I would guess so, since you're always thinking about what to do next)

It goes pretty in detail as far as saying that

http://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Courses/InformationInSpeech/CDROM/Literature/LOTwinterschool2006/biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm

There's also this shorter and less technical article on how eating a higher protein diet might affect your reaction speed positively. The study only uses healthy adult men which I assume you might be.

http://www.fyiliving.com/diet/sports-nutrition/could-eating-protein-help-your-reaction-time/

I'm sure there's more but a lot of the scholarly articles on the topic are not really easy to read, and I can't translate them quickly enough. I have that the Navy SEAL team uses to train their bodies/minds or whatever that I'll check out before I go to NH for a day or two this winter.

 

[Druggedfox]

Leffen, I can *definitely* see that, I was just speaking from the videos. Armada's definitely a very technical, precise player; his tech skill is great. I'd find it hard to believe it's better than mango's (mango is just...ridiculous) but I can definitely believe that it's very good. I'd like to see armada's falco over here, just to see what it would look like vs. various players; it'd be fun to watch.

Hm.. speaking of europeans who don't main falco... how many of you guys have seen amsah's falco? It's actually pretty sick, last I saw of it, anyway.

Yeah, you're right that marth can just jab a second time, but try shortening as a sweetspot. If you shorten at the right spacing you know how you'll only grab the ledge because of your character's grab range? So you sort of "teleport" to the ledge? That'll get around marth's dtilt and stuff, and jab will whiff. I definitely think its edgeguardable (mostly by run off fair), but I think it gives sooooooooooo many free recoveries that people don't have an excuse not to use it.

 

[Deleted member]

zelda dittos are obviously the best. let's play "don't jump" for 8 minutes and see if we can still beat the timer.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Falco vs Falco = ZvZ SC:BW, where you lose one more unit than the other person and then you lose.

Puff vs Puff = TvT SC:BW, where you have 45 minute tank standoffs, until someone goes for a rest (in which case neither Terran player goes tanks and you see a mass Vulture game instead, Flash vs Fantasy I think it was)

Fox vs Fox is very fun IMO, a lot funner than Falco dittos.

 

[CK Momentum]

Falco vs Falco = ZvZ SC:BW, where you lose one more unit than the other person and then you lose.

Puff vs Puff = TvT SC:BW, where you have 45 minute tank standoffs, until someone goes for a rest (in which case neither Terran player goes tanks and you see a mass Vulture game instead, Flash vs Fantasy I think it was)

Fox vs Fox is very fun IMO, a lot funner than Falco dittos.

Do you watch CholeraSC's old casts. They're amazing and what got me into video games in general.

 

[crush]

great article clone king. its unfortunate that im inferior to even female college age students :/

 

[CK Momentum]

great article clone king. its unfortunate that im inferior to even female college age students :/

But seriously crush, theres a world of tournament preparation that I think needs to be explored in order for smashers to reach their fullest potential. Chess Grandmaster Bobby Fischer once said

"Your body has to be in top condition. Your chess deteriorates as your body does. You can’t separate body from mind."

He's pretty much the quintessential competitor. FSBR has a lot to live up to. And Bobby had a lot of great quotes.

 

[Niko45]

Shortened illusion can still definitely get around (between) double jab if the timing and distance is right. Marth should be double jabbing naturally because a regular side B with up DI will just fall on to the ledge if Marth only jabs once anyway.

 

[CK Momentum]

Shortened illusion can still definitely get around (between) double jab if the timing and distance is right. Marth should be double jabbing naturally because a regular side B with up DI will just fall on to the ledge if Marth only jabs once anyway.

Does that still work even if Marth is as close to the ledge as possible?

 

[V3ctorMan]

i think axe would get rolled in the ditto these days.

I disagree, I won't say whom I think would win. Both PP and Axe are tremendous players but Axe getting "rolled" in the ditto, nah, You're not giving his falco enough credit...

Spoiler

It's cool though, I'm the one who called his Pikachu extraordinary and best 4 years ago and NOONE believing me till they saw it performing, so it's fine..

I know Kevin respects Axe's Falco as well.
/Axe's defense.

 

[Winston]

I have the most success edgeguarding really good shorten sweetspots with Marth's ftilt, walking to the very edge before I do it. I don't think you can cover Falco's normal side B with this method as well, though.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Dittos tend to bring out how people play and mess with it more. If people play Falcon gay then Falcon dittos suck because it's just Nair spacing battles or something similar lol. If you like comboing a FF'er with no shine to death, then this matchup is pretty darn awesome lol. Personally, Falco dittos are kind of tough for me because I'm not used to having little time to think about my next move. Thinking quickly and being able to play more aggressively when needed is good for me though, so I'm glad the Falco ditto exists, even if it challenges my core of how to play Melee. Gay Falco dittos are the WORST though lmao. Feels so awkward. XD

Okay, on a related topic, I would like to ask for advice from you. I feel like I play way too defensive almost all of the time. The thing is I have no idea how to shift my gears and make myself more offensive without putting large holes in my play and exposing myself to getting hit a lot. Especially in Falco dittos. Whenever I watch better falcos then myself play that matchup, it looks almost nothing like how I play it; in that both parties are usually in each others face.

I feel like my defensive habits (among other things) are holding me back because it relies more heavily on my opponent messing up on their own, rather than me forcing them into messing up. Westballz, another falco from socal, is crazy aggro every match and it works really well for him (though he may be too aggro), and I'd like to be even half as "in your face" as he is. However, I don't know where to start.

Here's an example of me playing like my super lame self from a recent tournament: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK7nvpUydFU

And another example of me vs westballz himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-2HvSctXE

I'd really appreciate it if you (or anyone else reading this), could help steer me in the right direction.

 

[Armada]

Thanks for all the good things people said about my Falco =)

I have to agree with Leffen tough. We both played way below what we normaly does. I played really bad overall at Beauty . In singles with Peach I played better then for the most part of the event but with Falco I played not that good and leffen did either (big reason why many random things happend during the set)

Enough johns no sience my shape is good atm but I would love to play some Falco dittos with PP at Apex =)

 

[unknown522]

^ Just saying. If I made a post like that, people would be on my *** about how I "john too much".

But anyways, PP I'll get on that response soon

 

[Strong Badam]

Stop johning so much Ryan

 

[unknown522]

this guy.

you know what really grinds my gears?

YOU! and this is why:

JK <3

 

[Armada]

^ Just saying. If I made a post like that, people would be on my *** about how I "john too much".

But anyways, PP I'll get on that response soon

But I don´t john normally =)

<3

 

[Max?]

This thread gives me a huge headache.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Lol of what I've seen of Armada's Falco, it's pretty good (Anything is good after watching Hbox play something other than Puff)

Axe's Falco is amazing in dittos.



Oh and CK, yeah I watch most SC:BW channels, but it sucks that Jon747 got taken down

Now it's all nevake

Did you all know that nevake is a smasher too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TNqQULH40c
That was from 2006

 

[Mew2King]

so Axe, Armada, Shiz, Mango's falcos are all good at dittos?

pp u rly need to get better at this MU over next 3 and half weeks

 

[Beat!]

It's so weird. At Pound V it looked like PP was holding his own against Mango in dittos. Sure, friendlies, but still.

 

[Veetaak]

PP got dis

 

[Bones0]

It's so weird. At Pound V it looked like PP was holding his own against Mango in dittos. Sure, friendlies, but still.

What color though?




Don't worry PP. I'll come down to NC and play you so you can be prepared for amazing Falco's. ;D

 

[Dark Hart]

Lol of what I've seen of Armada's Falco, it's pretty good (Anything is good after watching Hbox play something other than Puff)

Axe's Falco is amazing in dittos.



Oh and CK, yeah I watch most SC:BW channels, but it sucks that Jon747 got taken down

Now it's all nevake

Did you all know that nevake is a smasher too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TNqQULH40c
That was from 2006

I KNOW NEVAKE FROM THE 1P COMMUNITY!!!!!

/missing 1p community

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks for all the good things people said about my Falco =)

I have to agree with Leffen tough. We both played way below what we normaly does. I played really bad overall at Beauty . In singles with Peach I played better then for the most part of the event but with Falco I played not that good and leffen did either (big reason why many random things happend during the set)

Enough johns no sience my shape is good atm but I would love to play some Falco dittos with PP at Apex =)

Eh, it happens. Tournament and whatnot(SCRUB OMFG [loooolllll]).

You owe me some Fox/Peach and Marth/Peach(your peach obv LMAOOOO my peach is booty) games if I'm playing your Falco though =p



I'll respond to the rest in a bit.

 

[Warhawk]

PP what if you just learned the Falco matchup with Marth really well and CP'd Marth against Falco? From what you've said it sounds like Falco dittos go against your fundamental playing style with Falco, so maybe it would be better if for the Falco matchup you didn't go Falco since it forces you to change your Falco to an uncomfortable play style. I guess I don't really know how good your Marth is, but I've heard its really good and that matchup for Marth wouldn't force you to be more aggressive than you normally are or more than you want to be.

 

[leffen]

Advanced slob picks kinda ruins it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP what if you just learned the Falco matchup with Marth really well and CP'd Marth against Falco? From what you've said it sounds like Falco dittos go against your fundamental playing style with Falco, so maybe it would be better if for the Falco matchup you didn't go Falco since it forces you to change your Falco to an uncomfortable play style. I guess I don't really know how good your Marth is, but I've heard its really good and that matchup for Marth wouldn't force you to be more aggressive than you normally are or more than you want to be.

I'm considering it as a potential CP in the future, but I think it would be best for me to give it at least one more shot with Falco first(playing my best). I have been playing more aggressively lately so it's not like I couldn't figure out the ditto since it falls in line with that mindset.

I'm honestly more concerned about breaking through mentally than I am about any matchup at the moment. If it is shown that I still can't win after playing how I want to in the Falco ditto, then I either bulk up in the matchup again or consider CP'ing. For now I think I'm not in the position to switch characters yet.

I'm also the guy that lost to Hbox for a year before figuring out the Falco Puff matchup so I bet I could figure this out eventually too. XD Hopefully faster though obviously haha.



oh and yeah, what leffen said. going marth on mango would earn me a free sheik/falcon CP, and my Marth is horribly inexperienced vs Falcon(not so much Sheik, but I dunno if I could handle Mango's Sheik because I've never seen him play that matchup).

 

[Aber]

Mango's really good at this game. The loss to him does not necessarily deem PP bad at the matchup. I don't think any one else would beat PP in falco dittos. Just my opinion

 

[Warhawk]

I don't think his Falcon would be too bad but I totally forgot Mang0 had a Sheik... lol alright nevermind then, besides overcoming the mental block as a player that you described sounds like it would be better overall in the long run.

 

[Palpi]

Doesn't mango enjoy the marth match up as falco?