PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Veetaak]

inb4 m2k qq thread

 

[Warhawk]

okay maybe i'm not doing the right thing? I sit in my shield, then I press down but not quite as soft as i would try to tilt, and not quite as hard as i would to spot dodge.

Shield dropping right? Sometimes it helps me to not pull the control stick straight down but to move slighty to the right or left as I'm pulling the stick down and then come back. So more of a ) motion down on the stick than a |. Just make sure you press down first or you'll roll. Its mostly about just getting the timing though, once you get it a few times in a row it seems to get a little easier to do.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Falco Thread
How can you deal with a campy sheik on big stages like FD and Dreamland? I try to spam lasers as much as possible, using platform shenanigans, but especially in FD I get gayed more than I should.

FD is great vs Sheik because lasers are much easier to abuse against her there. If she commits to jumping at all you can Bair her or get on top of her landing lag, which you have time to set up since her SH takes longer than most. Tell me how you get gayed here and I can help you around it.

On DL, double lasers of all kinds and FH/SH/DJ mixups and feints can be really solid at threatening Sheik. Getting under her is really good because she can't needle you then, but you have to make sure she doesn't just run away and reset the situation then. If she drops down on your obviously you get an uptilt. Again, more specifics are required if you want to know more.

That conversation needs to end right now.

-----


I think Puff could have the advantage on Falco. Really. Get at me bros.

It's likely even though, on account of him having a gun, plus his unique ability to combo her and keep relatively safe pressure running. But, I don't know what Puff's full capabilities are when she's capitalising and spacing properly.

I could buy it because Falco tends to die pretty quickly off of a read from puff as well so the punishment game is relatively even I guess(I think puff edgeguards Falco better than vice versa so puff probably edges out in punishment game overall though).

Falco can control the middle really well against puff though. AC Bairs, FH Bairs tend to cover her main Bair heights and lasers turn her around below that and Fairs lose or trade with uptilt/Bair which is good for Falco since those moves do more than Fair(well, Bair does anyway and uptilt outprioritizes well). Puff is strangely good at reversing pressure vs Falco though in a way a lot of people don't yet understand though. That stupid WD OOS when she crouches and avoids grabs is phenomenal for her because it also avoids lots of mid to high nairs used in shield pressure(Dair is laggier so that makes it even easier for puff to escape if Falco uses that). Puff's shield is kinda meh though and her roll and spotdodge aren't fantastic though so it's an odd trade off situation.

Falco's early kills often come through throw stuff that doesn't technically work outside of the surprise factor lately, like dthrow upsmash or upthrow(no DI) dair or whatever. I feel like puff's punishments are more guaranteed, but I'm not sure if Puff can prevent surprise situations or not....I'd assume a solid Puff player could prevent those situations though a majority of the time, so that seems in her favor as well.

I'm also not sure how good puff's weaving through the air is against Falco. How tricky it can be I mean. I don't think Hbox's standard weaving tricks are full puff potential vs Falco, so how controlled she may be remains to be seen I suppose.

Falco's combos are solid against puff though, and sometimes he has better options at low % than puff does, especially if she's down and can't afford to rest and has to look for only gimps or spaced moves. Kinda limits her abilities.

I think it could be anywhere from 45-55 to 55-45.

Leaning on slight Falco advantage at the moment, but that might as well just be because PP is beating Hungrybox.

Hungry doesn't think outside the box enough in that matchup.

THIS

and you shouldn't base it all on me vs hbox because I'm better than him, like I already said. consider the matchup on your own and use youtube videos to align with your ideas, not the other way around.

Weren't people scared ****less of Puff like a year ago? I understand that Spacies starting becoming more consistent but the same options are there.... so its just Puff players getting worse, or Spacies getting better (maybe a bit of both?)

It's all metagame stuff. But yeah, 2009 was a big puff year, and then we gradually got over it in 2010 when I started beating Hbox. That year starting with puff ditto finals at pound 4 probably didn't help the hype/hate either rofl.

A lot of spacies, inspired by the old giants, took time to develop. Mango's spacies were under construction much of 09/10 as well. Zhu was the biggest influence for Falco in 2010 and he became pretty inactive after Pound 4 iirc, so it took longer than that for other spacies like myself to catch up. Fox hasn't had a role model which is why that guy is developing slower(since jman hasn't been playing for a while that also contributes).

Darc made a few waves, but the only Puff with real impact (barring the fruit) was Hungrybox, and then the very top echelon cracked his playstyle. PeePee just straight got better, Armada started CPing YLink and Mango's always ***** him. M2k goes back and forth with him, the majority of the time losing. This lack of recent success isn't a statement against Jigglypuff as a character, so much as one against Hungrybox as a player.

DING DING DING

winner

Tell your ride to unbail then money match me. I have the loudest crew in all of smash. Ask DrPP.

they're almost as loud as nc

The most common mistake ppl do is to press shield too late.
When you light shield you're most likely pressing shield earlier.

really? thanks for the tip =)

im going to work on pressing the shield sooner. I'm really stumped with this technique though.

I feel the same way man rofl

ur all gonna yell at me and call me a newb for this, but i think jiggs is just a cheap character that's easy to learn but most people good at the game don't wanna put the time into learning her because it's not fun

You tend to hate what you don't understand or can't manipulate with old habits. Jiggz is good and all top characters are cheap.

Being better with creativity is pretty hard to judge because whenever I see 2 really good players play, I'm always like: "Holy **** that was cool, these guys are incredible" I mean just the decision making, tech skills and reactions and all that stuff. I think it all goes together. How would you define someone that is more creative? I can't really see that lol.

It somewhat depends on what you define as creativity I suppose, but surely, if you're processing all of their ideas as you watch them play, you could see some that are not mainstream or they're coming up with on the spot, or continually trying new things as they play. A lot of people would call this type of stuff creativity, and you could observe who is doing more actions of that kind when they play.

dammit i know =(

im gonna cry to mom cuz u hurt my feelings THANKS jerk bye!!

<3

 

[Deleted member]

[00:06] Max: sami told me you and him had a falco metamorphasis
[00:06] Kevin: did we?
[00:06] Max: he said it was a bond of deep brotherhood
[00:06] Kevin: LMAO
[00:06] Kevin: no he didnt
[00:06] Kevin: i dont think hes ever said anything like that ever
[00:07] Max:

[23:21] Sami: but uh, i had an interesting theory talk with PP
[23:21] Sami: about powershielding and some other stuff
[23:22] Max: how was it
[23:22] Sami: it was really fun

[00:07] Max: okay he said it more plainly
[00:07] Kevin: LOL

 

[Winston]

ur all gonna yell at me and call me a newb for this, but i think jiggs is just a cheap character that's easy to learn but most people good at the game don't wanna put the time into learning her because it's not fun

Idk if jiggs is easy because I haven't really tried and Idk how good she is at top level because Im hella mediocre, but

I think the last thing is true. Jiggs offers something pretty different from what most people are looking for in Melee.

It's almost certainly the reason for the lack of representation of Jiggs at high level by non-hbox players

 

[Dr Peepee]

dang it umbreon LOOL

 

[Dorsey]

Yo m2k, give your crew spot to mr. Dorf yet?

 

[Druggedfox]

Jpobs, are you talking about shai dropping or just regular shield dropping?

If you're just talking about regular shield dropping, I'd bet it's a psychological thing with the light shield. The thing is, when you're pressing the shield more lightly you're more inclined to be "careful" sort of; how much you press down is sort of psychologically related to how hard you're shielding.

So yeah, if it's regular shield dropping I'd bet it has something to do with that.

If it's shai dropping? Just run, press down, and then hit shield.

 

[leffen]

What are you talking about druggedfox? You must shield BEFORE pressing down (actually you never press straight down) or you won't shield drop.

Jeez, so much information about shield dropping, even among known players

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLu5972oPZc

 

[Dorsey]

Oh jeez louise!

 

[Druggedfox]

Leffen, nfoisahfioahjiofjaoijfoia. As long as you're pressing shield and a certain amount down on your control stick (YES, YOU CAN PRESS STRAIGHT DOWN) it'll shield drop.

The way I shai drop is by having a feeling for how long it takes me to get the spot on the control stick where it will initiate a shield drop. So if I know it takes me X amount of time to get to that point comfortably without missing it (I don't just go to it as fast as possible, I progress towards it at a constant speed), I start by moving towards it and just hit shield once I get to it.

 

[JPOBS]

Jpobs, are you talking about shai dropping or just regular shield dropping?

If you're just talking about regular shield dropping, I'd bet it's a psychological thing with the light shield. The thing is, when you're pressing the shield more lightly you're more inclined to be "careful" sort of; how much you press down is sort of psychologically related to how hard you're shielding.

So yeah, if it's regular shield dropping I'd bet it has something to do with that.

If it's shai dropping? Just run, press down, and then hit shield.

whats the difference between the two? I thought shield dropping was shai dropping.

 

[Druggedfox]

Shai dropping is when you do it out of your initial dash; it's just a specific term for a type of shield drop.

Edit: The idea here being that if you're already in a full run, you could cancel the run with a crouch, then just shield drop normally. You can't cancel your initial dash with a crouch, but you can cancel it with a shield.

 

[JPOBS]

ok then, to use the proper terminology, i was actually referring the light shield actually making it easier for me to shai drop.

I'm not even kidding, I can't shai drop if i press the button the whole way. If I press it with the intention of light shielding the shai drop, I can do it like 10-20% of the time.

 

[Mahone]

Just wanna point out that i've played bones and he actually is really technical... i played him a while ago and he could shield drop consistently and doubleshine in pressure fluidly, etc. etc....

I can only imagine that he is ******** good now because the reason he doesn't have vids and you guys don't know who he is is because he lives in the middle of nowhere and rarely can go to tournaments, so i think he just practices new tech skill and stuff...

Anyway the point of this post it to give his some credibility for those of you who doubt whether he knows what he's talking about...

I agree with jpobs in the sense that smashboards is too obsessed with only listening to top 5 in the world players rather than reading posts and deciding for yourself/testing it out yourself and seeing if it makes sense.

 

[Druggedfox]

Jpobs, I honestly think it's a psychological thing.

As I explained, when you're light shielding you're being more "careful". When you full shield you probably hit down faster/go further with it and then miss the point on your control stick where it'll shield drop. When you light shield, on the other hand, you probably progress towards down more delicately and it makes it easier ^_^

That's why I suggested what I did to learn how to do it, which is slowly move towards the point with a *constant* progression. As you get better at it, you'll move towards that point faster and faster, and eventually you'll be able to just go to it.

Edit: I *still* don't see why people have this misconception that you can't just press directly down to shield drop.

 

[JPOBS]

thats a possibility druggy. I'll have to work on a combination pressing trigger earlier and finding the right angle/spot.

I honestly thought you couldn' go straight down because of the spot dodge mechnic. I recall dashdancedan's tutorial on it mentioning that the trick to it was all about the angle and degree of rotation from the horizontal or something

 

[leffen]

Leffen, nfoisahfioahjiofjaoijfoia. As long as you're pressing shield and a certain amount down on your control stick (YES, YOU CAN PRESS STRAIGHT DOWN) it'll shield drop.

The way I shai drop is by having a feeling for how long it takes me to get the spot on the control stick where it will initiate a shield drop. So if I know it takes me X amount of time to get to that point comfortably without missing it (I don't just go to it as fast as possible, I progress towards it at a constant speed), I start by moving towards it and just hit shield once I get to it.

Not for *shai dropping*. Pressing straight down is a normal shield drop, shai dropping is when you buffer and _SLIDE_ it to down-right/left where it shield drops

anyway, holding down->shield doesn't work either, since you'll either dash cancel or stop moving. Running->starting to press down->shielding->passing the threshold will also work, but that is NOT shai dropping and highly ineffective

Also- if you're sliding (like you say you are) then you should (need to?) press shield before you reach the threshhold or you will be stuck in shield or spotdodge.

You're right though, once you can shield drop 100% by holding forward, shielding, then starting to slide down you should start by starting the slide before you press shield. The important part is to hit shield before you reach 45 degrees below horizontal.


edit:uh what. When do you shield drop from a full dash? and shai dropping works the EXACT same way during full dashes and shai dropping is more or less essential when you wanna drop out of pressure (you press forward during the shield stun and then slide your stick down, making sure that you slide past the threshhold as soon as possible after you are no longer in lag).

I also shield drop a fair bit by just holding shield-> pressing down with the correct amount of speed but that is much much harder for most people.
The reason is because its really hard to buffer forward with yoshi during pressure (since he has no shieldstun) and holding forward with fox/falco means tilting your shield forward -which exposes your tail (that is pokeable even at full shield btw) making it very easy to shieldpoke which is very bad when you're shielding during respawn invincibility etc


edit 2: Jbobs, if your having trouble shield dropping with full shield then again-you're probably sliding down too fast/pressing shield too slow.
The reason that you have trouble with doing it with full shield is because you're probably not pushing the trigger in quickly or smth.

Just practice:
Press and hold left or right (run)
Hold shield for as long as you like while still holding left or right.
SLOWLY start sliding it from left/right to downleft/downright.

When you can get it by doing it slowly about 30 times in a row without failing, start speeding it up how fast you start the slide little by little, and then finally how fast you slide.

 

[Druggedfox]

I think the vast majority of the confusion is the interchanging of the words "shield drop" and "shai drop".

"Edit: I *still* don't see why people have this misconception that you can't just press directly down to shield drop." I said shield drop, not shai drop. If I said hold *only* down to shai drop, do tell, I certainly didn't mean to.

Like, look at: "You're right though, once you can shield drop 100% by holding forward, shielding, then starting to slide down you should start by starting the slide before you press shield. The important part is to hit shield before you reach 45 degrees below horizontal." Cuz you can totally shield drop without doin the whole forward thing, did you mean shai drop here? Or are you simply saying that it's possible to shield drop normally by using the forward thing.

Edit: Huh? Shai drop to drop out of pressure? You can just normally shield drop out of pressure and it's just as effective....

 

[Beat!]

Shai Shield Shui Shoi

 

[leffen]

Of cource you CAN shield drop normally (without buffering forward during the frames you cannot roll) but its MUCH harder to do under pressure and to do it consistently.

Are you implying that you can press straight down(from holding neutral) in such a precise manner that you'll shield drop everytime in tournament matches? I know its much harder for me at least.

 

[Druggedfox]

That's the way I learned to do it before I knew there was another way >___> I'm currently deciding whether or not I want to relearn how to do it, or just stick with it.

So yeah, I think it's pretty plausible to do it by that method consistently, since it just requires a good sense of how fast you're moving towards down. I haven't practiced this game in months though...probably going to try to get down shield dropping fluidly again.

Also, post on shield pressure/stage control coming soon... depending on how much I feel like *not* studying for finals >_>

Hey, can someone explain input buffers in melee? Is it only for certain things, or what? Everybody knows how annoying it is to be trying to do a move and get hit on the ground, and it'll instantly get up attack even if you didn't press anything after getting hit to the ground. I swear shield grabbing feels this way sometimes as well, but I could be crazy. I'm trying to figure something specific about pressure out, and it sorta depends on this.

 

[leffen]

I just lost a huge post about every god damn buffer in the game and that also explained some of my own AT's that I've developed with buffers... fml


I'll rewrite it eventually, gonna test a bit more for now

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Isn't shield drop slower without some form of buffer or dash forward shield drop? The motion is slower than shoving the stick down for a spot dodge.

 

[KirbyKaze]

ur all gonna yell at me and call me a newb for this, but i think jiggs is just a cheap character that's easy to learn but most people good at the game don't wanna put the time into learning her because it's not fun

*co-signs*

 

[Beat!]

For some reason, I'm only half surprised.

 

[Battlecow]

A lot of people hate leffen for his abrasive posting style and rampant anti-american foolishness. But I'm going to be honest, I think leffen is going to put in work at apex.

My opinion is that leffen is a lot better than people give him credit for because people don't like him. Its pretty easy to look at someone you like and wish the best for them or overate them, and its even easier to look at someone you dislike and think they suck. But from a completely objective standpoint, i think he's going to **** a lot of people.

Nah man, he's good at melee, but just psychologically, there's no way a guy like that doesn't overrate himself, and looking at results... he's not even getting second in Sweden, lol.

My predictions (and I will quote this after apex to show that I was right)

-Leffen cops out, goes fox like vectorman and everyone else said he would, and gets 17th, then johns ferociously for days while saying "no johns"

-Armada gets 4th and is a G about it because he's always a G, and then Leffen johns ferociously for him while saying "no johns."

 

[Lightsyde]

Since I got called for lurking

I have the loudest crew in all of smash. Ask DrPP.

Kevin lives in the state with the loudest crew in all of Smash.

You do not live in this state

:. You do not have the loudest crew in all of Smash.

*NC the Thunderdome*

 

[leffen]

Battlecow you're hilarious, literally 95% of your posts are about me, I even saw you making a huge debate in the 64 forums LOL

and since when has I not gotten second (except for the many tournaments I've won) IN sweden? I placed 4th in Finland, before that I've placed 2nd everytime for over 7 months.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya but you are from EU, so it doesn't count.

 

[unknown522]

Lets get back to shield dropping for a sec. Can bones or leffen (or anyone) tell me something:

is it easier to Shield drop if you light shield?
For some reason i NEVER get te drop if i full shield. I can occasionally do it if I only slightly hit the trigger (light shield) is that a legic mechanic or am I trippin?

also, I'm like 10 times more consistent if I use R than if I use L 0_o

I learned a few weeks ago, that I couldn't shield drop because my controller sucked. I tried using different ones and I can shield drop about 7/10 times with no practice.

still, I dunno what tips I can offer.

Also, reading the last 4-5 pages was kinda painful.

There's also a lot of leffen hate going on <_<

 

[leffen]

I see you're jealous kage, I know you'd love to forget all those 7th placements in Canada :o


@Unknown: Shield dropping has a lot to do with your R/L triggers and how your control stick is.
I can pretty much learn to shield drop with any controller in half a day now tho after switching controllers so often.

 

[Divinokage]

Well same way canadian tournaments don't count, of course I want to win but chances are very minimal.. but I also use them to learn more stuff. USA is where it's at of course.

 

[leffen]

lmao, I'm not suprised. You do better at USA tournaments because ppl don't know how to play vs you=thats what matters.

 

[Warhawk]

Because you know, Kage hasn't been going to large US tournaments for years or anything...

 

[JPOBS]

Nah man, he's good at melee, but just psychologically, there's no way a guy like that doesn't overrate himself, and looking at results... he's not even getting second in Sweden, lol.

My predictions (and I will quote this after apex to show that I was right)

-Leffen cops out, goes fox like vectorman and everyone else said he would, and gets 17th, then johns ferociously for days while saying "no johns"

-Armada gets 4th and is a G about it because he's always a G, and then Leffen johns ferociously for him while saying "no johns."

I was under the impression leffen mained fox? I don't see how that's copping out >_>
and 17th at a tourny like Apex is like, hella good lol.

I don't see Armada getting lower than 2nd.

 

[crush]

Canada, meh
america is where its at.
THE PS3 IS STINK!
DON'T BUY IT!

 

[unknown522]

@Unknown: Shield dropping has a lot to do with your R/L triggers and how your control stick is.
I can pretty much learn to shield drop with any controller in half a day now tho after switching controllers so often.

yeah, I hear ya.

I'm able to do it with 6/8 controllers that I have here at home pretty consistently

 

[crush]

do they not teach you to simplify fractions in canada

 

[leffen]

I was under the impression leffen mained fox? I don't see how that's copping out >_>
and 17th at a tourny like Apex is like, hella good lol.

I don't see Armada getting lower than 2nd.

lol qft.
17th at G2, even though I think I could've done better, still ment I outplaced/tied with a ****load of notable people.

I am going to play Yoshi though, although I'm gonna have to figure out in what matchups since it will be so EXTREMELY different in the other version (not only nerfs - the change in where you can cc etc makes it even worse).