PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bing]

btw I just wanted to say that since I sat with/played friendlies with PP's F-Smash game. I actually do that in friendlies. I actually sit there and go "Fsmashhhhhh" "Down smashhh" "Forward airrr"

Its amazing.

Love you PP <3

 

[Rubyiris]

Man, **** the Marth match-up with Falco. Recently lost to Ice, feels pretty bad after he got 33rd at Apex.

Spoiler

At least I beat that other 33rd placer.

If anyone's in an advice giving mood, be my guest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB-WP9gj20k

I don't really have a Marth to practice against, so any help would be appreciated.

Just wanted to say **** yeah saber lily

 

[Meneks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7n5JhMEvsM&t=2m34s

that shine switch back air..

How the **** do you do that?

I can shine bair consistently at percentages 170-200.. But I've never gotten around to doing one of these.

Any advice?


Also are there any more advanced combos to do on spacies out of a grab that some of you can throw at me?
For years I've had the habit of throwing forward against all characters lol.

 

[giovannig22311]

That works too haha. =p


Also the Fsmash video is coming.

okay thanks PP for explaining that,i will apply laser spacing and think about the game more ...STACK IT UP PP hahaha

 

[Naughty Pixel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7n5JhMEvsM&t=2m34s

that shine switch back air..

How the **** do you do that?

I can shine bair consistently at percentages 170-200.. But I've never gotten around to doing one of these.

Any advice?


Also are there any more advanced combos to do on spacies out of a grab that some of you can throw at me?
For years I've had the habit of throwing forward against all characters lol.

That shine bair is likely something that needs to be nearly frame perfect and probably can't be performed on fox like that unless it's in the air due to the start up lag on Falcos jump.

Edit: He used like 3 Shines previously so staled knock back may have help facilitate that shine bair.

As for throws, Falco doesn't really have much that directly leads to a gaurenteed hit. You can try some gimmicky things like downthrow hope for mistech/read the tech>punish but that's not that great. Back throw can sometimes lead to a regrab if they don't react in time. I usually stick with forward throws and wait til they get accustomed to it and then switch up to like down or back. Not quite sure if up throw is ever useful though, they go way to high cause his blasters too good =P.

 

[Meneks]

Lol, isn't upthrow better than dthrow? A least you're not giving the opponent an option to tech and you can always be quick and double jump? I just never really think to up throw.

 

[unknown522]

^Yes

Edit:

@ remen: advice coming your way later. There's no Internet here at weon-x's place. So when I get home

 

[Remen]

it's not about the things you're doing right so much as cutting out the things causing you to lose:

1. you get hit by WD > fsmash or high shield > shield grab a lot, which means you're attacking him from unsafe positioning or dedicating your attacks too much. your positioning looks decent so it's probably that you're going in too hard. try more wavelands back to feint or baiting moves that you can defend and then punish them.

2. you're getting hit by a lot of jab reset or tech chases. try varying your tech timing, don't tech and wait before rolling, or hold to a side when hit by a jab reset.

3. your edge guarding is really bad in a lot of ways. this is just a general skill that you need to be able to kill marth when you have him.

4. a lot of your shine combos give you nothing. it's like grounded shine > aerial shine > nothing. just bair him or something.

thats about it as far as i can see. IMO start with the edge guards first, those will have the highest immediate change for the matchup.

1. Yeah, my playstyle often tends to get way too aggressive. Doing aerials high on shields is a bad habit of mine trying to stuff approaches, it pretty much means I'm going auto-pilot. Will work on holding my concentration continuously, it really tends to screw me over against gimp-heavy characters(as evidenced in the last match of this set).
Getting hit by WD > Fsmash and not baiting that much is me not being used to Marth's spacing mostly, guess I'll have to make people around me play Marth to get more comfortable with it.

2. Hmm, I don't know how much effect this will have, top Marth's don't really seem to drop stuff like that no matter what you do. My techs were more meant to put me in a better position, already assuming I was going to get hit. But I guess I could experiment with it a little, maybe I can confuse them some way.

3. Yeah, this is the one I noticed the most myself even during the set. I'm completely clueless on how to edgeguard Marth, would be great if someone could give some sort of outline of what to do.

4. I'm used to playing against combo-food characters, so yeah I was trying to overextend combo's a lot. I'll look at some PP/Mango vids to see their combo decision making against Marth, this should be one of the simpler things to work on.

Thanks for the tips, you really made me think about the match-up.

Just wanted to say **** yeah saber lily

Haha, I always seem to get random love for my avatar. <3

@ remen: advice coming your way later. There's no Internet here at weon-x's place. So when I get home

Looking forward to it.

 

[Meneks]

Man, **** the Marth match-up with Falco. Recently lost to Ice, feels pretty bad after he got 33rd at Apex.

Spoiler

At least I beat that other 33rd placer.

If anyone's in an advice giving mood, be my guest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB-WP9gj20k

I don't really have a Marth to practice against, so any help would be appreciated.

It didn't really look like you grabbed him a lot, just doing simple grabs to fthrows or something throws off marth quite a bit. It does a lot to damage momentum of the opponent imo.

Not to mention there were a lot of phantasm recoveries, there were a couple instances where you could have went into firebird and aim at the ledge and you would have been fine

 

[Dr Peepee]

Also are there any more advanced combos to do on spacies out of a grab that some of you can throw at me?
For years I've had the habit of throwing forward against all characters lol.

Nothing is guaranteed, first rule of Falco grab "combos" lol.

Upthrow leads to shine at lower percents if they DI in/don't DI/don't SDI a funny way. It's been pretty reliable for me for a while but now people have caught on how to DI the throw and/or lasers.

Bthrow leads to grabs or shines or ftilts or other weird stuff depending on % if the opponent DIs in/sometimes doesn't DI.

Dthrow leads to Dsmash on Fox if you can keep him DI'ing in. You have to throw fast and hope you catch him offguard though because if he DIs away he can get away before your punish. Dthrow against Falco on platforms can be good if he can't DI off of the platform and shine you in that time, which would net you a Dsmash/Dtilt.

Fthrow leads to Dair sometimes at really low to mid percents, especially if they DI in. If you throw them off of the stage you can Ftilt/Dair/wait and hit their recovery attempt at low to mid percents.


All of this is based on mixups and how quickly you throw. Pummeling may also allow you to catch people trying to SDI. Mileage may vary.

Lol, isn't upthrow better than dthrow? A least you're not giving the opponent an option to tech and you can always be quick and double jump? I just never really think to up throw.

Situational/matchup-based question, but on the whole I'd say Upthrow is better than Dthrow, yeah.

 

[Warhawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7n5JhMEvsM&t=2m34s

that shine switch back air..

How the **** do you do that?

I can shine bair consistently at percentages 170-200.. But I've never gotten around to doing one of these.

Any advice?

Well where is the problem arising? Are you having trouble turning around in your shine and/or jumping after turning around in your shine because of the hitlag? Or maybe are you not getting the bair out in time to catch your opponent as you follow him up from the shine? Does it seem like they are too far over for your bair to hit them after a shine?

@PP Also with the forward throw, can't you get a good tech chase situation on fastfallers, especially at higher percents? I know a lot of times if I have like Fox or Falco somewhat near a ledge to cut of some escape options I like to forward throw them then empty hop after them to get them to roll or tech and then read or react to what they do and fsmash them to finish them or put them in an edgeguard situation.

 

[Bones0]

I used to love fthrow before PP started doing uthrow fairs and I fell in love with those. >_>

 

[Meneks]

Well where is the problem arising? Are you having trouble turning around in your shine and/or jumping after turning around in your shine because of the hitlag? Or maybe are you not getting the bair out in time to catch your opponent as you follow him up from the shine? Does it seem like they are too far over for your bair to hit them after a shine?

Pretty much this, I have no problems turning in shine at all, I just can't get the jump out.

I should note that for shine bairs I use the control stick since its fastest

 

[Deleted member]

3. Yeah, this is the one I noticed the most myself even during the set. I'm completely clueless on how to edgeguard Marth, would be great if someone could give some sort of outline of what to do.

umm, marth is "easy" to edge guard but not really? there are a lot of subtle things but basically you want to put him into a position where those little things can't save him.

pretty much if you can't bair him for whatever reason, just edge hog the up B and take your free hits from there. even if he lives you can leverage a good position and he might not live through that one. also, a lot of fox/falco players have the bad habit of not taking freebies. if you edge hog marth and he's at like 130, just stand up and dtilt him or something. a lot of players go for random aerials that don't really help them. also the marth killer is pretty much only good if they absolutely can't avoid it.

i usually find that playing more basic lets you focus on cleaner hits, better spacing, etc. so maybe dumbing down your play per se will make it easier for you to learn from yourself.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Remen on edgeguarding: Watch zhu vs M2K at a no johns last summer. Zhu does this cool DJ regrab to avoid both the side Bs and the up B. That should help you a lot.

Bair otherwise lol.

 

[Warhawk]

Pretty much this, I have no problems turning in shine at all, I just can't get the jump out.

I should note that for shine bairs I use the control stick since its fastest

Usually when this happens to me its because I pressed jump to soon, while Falco was turning around. You could try experimenting in training mode with the timing of pressing jump in a shine-turnaround-bair and try pressing jump slightly later.

 

[AvengerAngel]

Omg Remen! Nice to see you're still playing and doing well :D
Have you already watched these vids? Maybe you could find some new ideas x)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc1GfN1rw1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFtwcZU2LxY

 

[Armada]

Remen: Fun to see you are still playing. What happend with the fox?
See you at some local in Holland in June I guess

 

[Remen]

Omg Remen! Nice to see you're still playing and doing well :D
Have you already watched these vids? Maybe you could find some new ideas x)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc1GfN1rw1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFtwcZU2LxY

Thanks and I'll give those vids a watch.

Remen: Fun to see you are still playing. What happend with the fox?
See you at some local in Holland in June I guess

Haha, Fox is a pretty boring character, especially after playing him for so many years. Falco is way more fun, so I use him exclusively now.
I'm also seriously considering going to Norway now btw. As I told you earlier, I would think about it if I could become the best of my country again and I've achieved that goal faster than I thought I would. But yeah, hopefully I'll see you at one of our monthlies before then.

 

[Bones0]

Man, **** the Marth match-up with Falco. Recently lost to Ice, feels pretty bad after he got 33rd at Apex.

Spoiler

At least I beat that other 33rd placer.

If anyone's in an advice giving mood, be my guest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB-WP9gj20k

I don't really have a Marth to practice against, so any help would be appreciated.

[collapse=Game 1 - FoD]0:08 - You did two techs in place (second one being the one in the middle at 0:14), but I tend to favor tech rolls because if you tech roll away he may not be able to get the grab, which means he will go for a dash attack and potentially miss the tip/you can CC/you can ground tech. It's a bad situation either way, but I'd rather get dash attacked than grabbed any day, especially on FoD where you can often slide off from the low angle.

0:30 - Rule #1 vs. Marth: Never jab when he's facing you. I see people getting punished for this all the time because they misspaced their aerial and shine won't hit. Of course you will inevitably misspace something, in which case you will just have to mix up jab with double jab or even spot dodge/roll if you're sure they won't wait before grabbing. For the most part though, either keep your back to Marth (the back of shine's hitbox is way more disjointed than the front), or keep his back to you (in that example, you cross him up for really no reason and were left in a position where you couldn't shine him).

0:50 - Should have just slid off. Tech rolling in from the ledge doesn't really work vs. Marth because his fsmash has so much range they won't usually overcommit to the other tech options and will just opt to cover them all.

0:53 - You always have to be DIing utilts away. It's a really easy way to get tippered if you don't. Ice just happened to miss that one. You'll also get daired a lot if you are any closer to the ledge.

0:55 - Pick up quickly on which Marth's like doing reverse fair into stuff, and it will become pretty obvious when they are doing it. Obviously you can't expect to realize this for the first time in-game, but when you look at the clip, the way he's positioned and everything suggests he will reverse fair because he wants to hit you back off, not combo you across the stage. It feels risky to DI off stage for that stuff, but it's really your only option. If he ended up doing a normal fair to fsmash as you DI into it, at least you'd have more stage to recover. It becomes a a pick your poison kinda thing if you can't tell at all which way he is trying to hit you. Also, make sure you get the DI on that uthrow after you Phantasm on. You would have gone straight to the top plat and forced him to do a lot more work to get you back off stage.

1:15 - You didn't need to FH that bair. You gave up a lot of your positional advantage when you did. You might have even been able to do something like WD under him and get him with a utilt, shine, CC dsmash, etc.

1:40 - You can't hesitate on LHs like that. You're lucky he just jabbed instead of ftilting, dtilting, fsmash, etc. I highly recommend learning to incorporate ledgedashing. It's perfect for scenarios like that where he's too close to LHDL and too far to LH an attack.

1:43 - I would have rolled as soon as I landed on stage. None of Marth's LH attacks will reach far enough to hit you, and he can't get up there fast enough to do anything else.

1:55 - That SH bair was sort of what I was talking about before. He was a little lower % this time, but you could have just baired again to keep him from landing and then work into the options I listed before. If you are trying to bait aerials from Marth like that, you HAVE to make sure you are out of range because getting tipped like that sucks when you have stage control and he is just throwing out a desperation move. It looked like you mostly got tricked by the platform height though, so maybe just shield next time if you realize the plat is low enough that he can hit you when he lands on it with an aerial.

2:00 - He was way too low to go for a spike. FH fair is great for building damage when they DI the bthrow in, and if you're worried about being off stage, you could also FH nair/bair and work the edge guard game from there (make sure it's not the weak part of the bair though; Marth is too floaty for anything to work off of that, and you'll just get hit), but I'd really just suggest fair more than anything.

2:03 - Since you weren't close enough to grab, you should have either ran a little first or nair-shined his shield. I like the latter because if you get a shield poke or the shine hits an OoS option you're set, and if not you can just shine-grab him anyway.

2:05 - You shouldn't have ended the combo so early. After the dair you could have naired/faired him across the stage before fsmashing. Linking into aerials and dsmash is often better for killing Marth because it gets him off stage low. Unless the fsmash is going to kill him, it's just going to let him DI super high and get back safely with less damage. Simply nairing him 2-3 more times across the stage would do more damage and give you a better edgeguarding opportunity even if he is closer to the stage.

2:08 - Shield poke! Once again, fsmash was probably not the best option. I would have daired and then based on his DI, either uair (it might have killed there), bair, or even another dair if you see an opportunity to force him into a tech chase or if he DI'd far enough to be off stage.

2:20 - If you're going to stay grounded during Marth's invincibility, you have to pretty much predict if he's going to attack or grab. At 127%, I wouldn't be too worried about getting grabbed, so shielding would be a much better option then trying to bait a grab that you won't be able to punish anyway (because he's still invincible).

2:25 - Another unnecessary FH bair lost stage control for you.

2:30 - When you aren't sure what throw they'll use, I like to DI for the uthrow and be ready for the tech. If they uthrow and you don't DI, it can mean a stock because of fsmash and a hundred other things. If they dthrow, bthrow, and fthrow and you don't tech, it's also a potential stock from a simple tipper. How you DI the d/b/fthrow isn't as crucial as uthrow because you're going to be teching anyway, and obviously if they uthrow you don't have to worry about teching at all. When you get better vs. Marth's throw gimmicks, you'll start being able to DI for the uthrow in combination with another throw you think he might do. The situation you had didn't really have this option because if you DI'd behind him to slide off, expecting a dthrow, you could have gotten uthrow tippered. There's a lot of combinations of DI mindgames that you really just have to play a lot of Marth to get down. Other than that, just stick to the rule of DIing for uthrows and being ready to tech the other throws.

2:50 - Most of the rest of the game was just a lot of tech skill flubs (on both sides), like the shine-waveland and stuff. I will say it really seems like you're way too eager to pull the FH bairs and it's giving him stage control way too often.[/collapse]
I'll do the other games later and update this with a bunch of quotes about Marth edge guarding.

 

[Remen]

Wow, Bones, that's already more than I could have ever hoped to ask for. Keep it coming, such a detailed critique will surely help a ton.

@Remen on edgeguarding: Watch zhu vs M2K at a no johns last summer. Zhu does this cool DJ regrab to avoid both the side Bs and the up B. That should help you a lot.

Bair otherwise lol.

That looked kind of risky at first, but I don't think m2k punished him for it even once. Should be really useful, weird that it doesn't seem to be standard fair though.

 

[Bones0]

THIS thread has a bunch of general matchup stuff, and I outlined edgeguarding specifically. Combine that with THIS post, and it should cover just about everything. The second link is a post about edge guarding as Fox, but as you can imagine it's almost the same. The major differences are:
- Fox can stop LHing bairs and just usmash once he gets to a certain percent
- Falco can use LH dair as a mixup for LH bair. If they DI in for a bair, you can double dair them. If they DI out for a dair, you can bair and shout "WEST COAST!"
- Fox can shine-bair because he can shine spike; Falco has to just drop down with invincibility and DJ bair, or has to make sure he lands the shine-bair properly to avoid tech opportunities (back of the shine).
- If Marth up-B's into Firefox stall, he gets saved, but vs. Firebird stall, Falco will regrab before he does and there's no hitbox to save him.

 

[wootayng]

when do u guys hit L or R to tec when being edge guarded? like if your coming from the bottom of the stage of fd and marth is charging his fsmash when do you push L/R.

edit:nvm found a bunch of vids

 

[Bones0]

when do u guys hit L or R to tec when being edge guarded? like if your coming from the bottom of the stage of fd and marth is charging his fsmash when do you push L/R.

edit:nvm found a bunch of vids

As late as possible, but before you get hit.

 

[Niko45]

Lightshield mixups are really good for edgeguarding Marth. I'm sure you know, Remen, as Amsah loves using those. Was the most stand out thing I noticed him doing when I got to play him. He'll bait with lightshield even when he knows the Marth can DJ to ledge but then come out of the lightshield early with a bair or taking edge etc.

It's really good for playing mindgames with the Marth because simply showing lightshield conditions his recovery as he immediately knows he can't risk going low and just dying.

The Zhu thing PP is talking about is also crazy good (probably the best thing to use for consistency).

 

[Dr Peepee]

I never thought about conditioning Marth with lightshield....that's a pretty good idea.

Feels worth trying vs other characters and/or in other ways too.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah you can literally lightshield for like a split second then grab edge and watch ok/decent marths up-b early in an attempt to miss the shield and get edgehogged

not as good vs very bad marths or marths that catch on though

 

[_Kadaj_]

That's soooo old Kevin wtf

 

[stingers]

its before his time...

 

[Armada]

Remen: I understand. So many years for you with Fox. Fun to see you wanna improve!
You SHOULD go to that tournament. The biggest tournament in Europe of all time need our first champ

Yeah I have pretty much decided to go to that one in June. Will look at tickets soon and hopefully I can find some good tickets.

 

[Druggedfox]

So many years for you with Fox. Fun to see you wanna improve!

Did anybody else read this as:

Years spent playing fox --> want to improve --> picks falco

 

[Niko45]

That's how I read most things, at least the last 2/3rds of that.

 

[Armada]

HAHA.

Yeah I see why people can missunderstand what I mean with that sentence especially since people think Falco is "broken"

 

[Dr Peepee]

its before his time...

I saw it when I started playing, but I've never messed around with it personally. Grounded and platform baits would work differently as well as edgeguard-based ones, and I haven't played with ANY of that and I'm not sure how much others have. Even if it is "old," there could still be "new" applications.

And neither of you two did either when I played you so gtfo.



Does anyone not figure that sometimes people want to start anew so they pick another character that won't have all of their old bad habits? <.<

 

[FoxLisk]

Impossible. The only fully transferable skill between characters is bad habits

 

[knightpraetor]

well, i'm a little surprised there are other people who think falco is better than fox, i always thought that too, so now i don't play my fox and only play falco and jiggs when i'm not playing marth..

but honestly while secondaries improve the matchup has to be pretty bad for you to pull out your secondary

 

[Bones0]

I thought you secondaried ICs, KP.

 

[knightpraetor]

wtH??? i've never played ICs in my life..well there was that one summer where i memorized all the desynchs and chaingrabs that i could, but i forgot all of them

i mained marth one year, mained fox 2, and now have mained marth two more..but i didn't play much except the last 2 years.

so basically i have a good fox secondary, a mediocre jiggs and a mediocre falco..

but i don't actually practice my fox any more....except when people ask for fox practice specifically

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm going to be recording matches with Silly Kyle/Okami this evening. Would anyone be up for giving me some critique when I post them? I promise the videos will be of watchable quality, and I SHOULD be playing up to par. I've been feeling that groove again after the last month or so of uber****.

 

[EWC]

I'll critique them if you want.