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I'll update my stage and runnerup lists later today. For now, I have to get one obscenely long post out of my system.
In other news, Brawl has cusomizable buttom configurations! Power to the people!
Personally, I always thought is was odd that BOTH the X and Y buttons on the Cube controller were assigned to jump. I think I'll map the grab button to Y for easy access.
Here's the 40 i wanna see in there, pick it apart if youd like. I'll give explanations for the odd ones
Mario Games:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Wario
Waluigi
Yoshi
DK games:
DK
Diddy
King K. Rool
Lankey Kong: from DK64, he was my favorite in that game i think he would be interesting to play as, and he would have a fairly cool moveset. He's up b could be something like the baloon move from that game, and hes smash b could be the simian sprint from DK64
Zelda games:
Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
Midina and wolf link
Metroid Games:
Samus/ Zero Suit samus
Ridley
Kirby Games:
Kirby
Meta Knight
Dedede
Star Fox:
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Krystal
Slippy: who wouldn't want to beat the crap outta this guy? plus he could be clone.
Pokemon:
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Gengar
Other Games:
Captain Falcon
Ness
Ice Climbers
G & W: i think he is to innovative to get rid of right away
Pit
Captain Olimar & Louie with pikmin
3rd Party:
Snake
Sonic
Tails: another guy i could see people wanting to beat up
Knuckles: i think he would have a good moveset, and i would like to see how they would do his gliding and his ability to climb on walls (would he be able to climb some walls, all walls, or none at all?)
I'm not feeling it man. As SR93 pointed out, you completely skipped the FE series. How ever, you do have a few interesting choices (Slippy & Lanky in particular) who most likely won't make the cut, but would be interesting nevertheless. 5.5/10 for me. I'll hope you'll stick around and make a scend attempt (this time I suggest with Ike and the Black knight).
Ya, but what if Shiek was her own character slot. She could be fairly intresting, and somewhat changed. At least in the PAL version she was nerfed, and I imagine IF she makes it, she'll be nerfed, and SHOULD BE AND WILL BE HER OWN CHARACTER SLOT! The mindgames with that get to me...I have to pull out my secret artillery Peach and Roy to stop that from killing my Fox, Falco, and Link.
Only characters WORTHY of a character slot should be given one - and a minor, overrated character such as Sheik is most definitely not. The PAL version didn't do nearly enough to nerf Sheik, as the character is fundamentally broken to the core. My hope is that she is gone for good.
I gotta be honest to you Wiseguy. You're cool and all, but seeing you with a Shiek sig for a month would be the ultimate lol thing on the SWF. I'll be taking bets now that WW Link is in Brawl. If he is, whoever bets against me has to have a WW Link sig saying "WW Link owns" below for a month! If WW Link is not in, then I'll have a sig saying "(insert name here) owned me like a n00b!" for a month.
Any takers=???=PM me if you wish to take up this offer. I'll only take this offer with one person, however...get your chance to enbarass Johnknight1 now, at the risk of only having a WW Link sig for a month, while I get one that embarasses me on all levels. First come, first serve. I might be stealing Wiseguy's idea, but it's a good idea to say the very least of it. And I know how much you all want to embarass me out there!
GameSpot's ratings are worse than the comments and posts...Twilight Princess is a 9,000 (yell it like Vegeta)/10 game, not a 8.8 game. It is FAR better than Perfect Dark Zero (which got a 9.0), not worse! Not to mention Mario Kart 64 only got a 6.4=deserves at least a 8.5.
I hate it when people are like "Zomg we'll have 3 Links" arguement=stupid. I'm sorry, but if we get TP Link, Midna w/t Wolf Link on the side, and WW Link then we'll have two Links, and one in both human form, and Wolf form on the side. Proof that saying that is straight up pointless, and by no means a good arguement.
Chances are you'll win, but Shiek's got anywhere from a 30%-40% chance in my book. Zelda keeping her original moveset definitely helps her chances, and she sorta has her universal Zelda look, along with Link.
But we could always use more, lol. If the game was all swordsman it would be good with me, as long as we get diffrent styles, just like diffrent martial arts styles (ie: Judo, karate, sumo wrestling, lol). However, Zelda never used the sword in TP (sorta like Ganondorf in OOT), while that's all Ganondorf used basically.
I wanted to go this time. Last time my friend was there the day after Brawl was confirmed...ahh well I still have the internet! The only problem I have is the press has their own area, and there should be a public area, instead of all press. Problem is the press area was like the size of a office space, and that was generally used by the non-gaming press, like the big newspapers, magazines, and stuff like that.
Along with Galaxy and of course BRAWWWWWLLLLLL!!! Plus STrikers, Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition, and many, many, many more. I swear in the first 20 months we'll get more good games that the GCN over a life time. Considering how many good games it had, that is one heck of a achievement.
But I don't have 2 Wiimotes, and I won't unless I get Wii Play, lol. However, the Bowling is spot on, the boxing is good, the golf& tennis are okay, but the Baseball for some reason bugs me. Maybe it's the fact it is nothing like baseball, or if I smack my hand on the Wiimote I'll get a 98 mph fastball, and when I throw my arm like I use to throw 70 mph pitches, I get 40 mph=stupid. Plus if you swing your arm at a 50 mph motion you get in the high 80's and low 90's =cheap.
But what justifies Black Knight=??? Clearly Marth is much more popular, and I can guarentee you the new lord Miciaiah is and will not be anywhere as big as Ike or Marth. Those two IMO are in, the 3rd spot is more than debateable (go ROY!).
Black Knight is Ike's main rival, a major character in the teo most recent FE games and a perfect candidate for Ike's clone. And I guarantee he will be extremely popular playable character, given his undeniably awesome appearance.
As for Miciaiah, her role as the main lord in GoD is major factor - plus she brings more originaality to the roster.
The game physics are amazing, great jumping, spinning, and attacking. What huge invicible wall=??? The game was the #2 selling GC game, and is a instant classic. I wasn't a disgrace to Mario in anyway, shape, or form, in fact it was almost as good as Super Mario 64. IMO it was just as challenging, but lacked level length like in SM64, but Galaxy definitely looks like the best Mario game since SMB3=best Mario game ever. Honestly, it pushed the boundaries for video gaming, only a few steps below it's predisessor SM64.
You don't remember the invisible wall? When you are out in the main plaza, go out on the shore line, and use your propulsion jetpack-add to try and leave the island, you smack into a giant invisible wall that surronds the island.
I don't mean to knock SMS (I rather liked it) but the idea that it pushed the boundaries of gaming is simply false. With their first GC Zelda game, Nintendo introduced Wind Waker: a game that took risks at every turn (stunning cel shaded graphics, sea exploration, etc). Conversely, their first Mario game was just a sequel to SM64 - with a jetpack.
G&W is retro, Nook is a newer character. I think generally only minorly popular classic charcters will make it, not minorly popular newer characters, or at least not many=1 or 2 at most, maybe...
If anything, I would say the opposite is true. A awesome, but relatively unknown character from a newer, more relivant series deserves a place in Brawl far more than a retro character.
The AC humans are 10 times as important as Nook. Wario's roll is the main character, Nook's is as the 2nd most important character. Plus since Miis=upgraded AC humans, I think we'll be seeing Miis as the Wii, Nintendo, and AC rep.
AC humans are the eqivilant of trainers in Pokemon game - they are technically playable, but they lack all personality. Just as Pokemon are the true characters in their series, so also are the animals (particularily Nook) the real source of AC's quirky atmosphere.
The udates are good Wiseguy, but why is ROB on it=??? Same thing with Sora...you can take him off, and add Falco back on=at least he doesn't sing "Under the Sea"in full mermaid gear=that was the lamest moment in gaming, ever! Other than that and a few other flaws, Sora's cool, but Falco pwns all=End of Story. Replacing ROB with BalloonFight IMO would be a good move, but there are obviously other GOOD ooptions. And Shiek isn't dead yet, just a heads up.
Not only would ROB have a far more unique moveset than Balloon Fighter, but he serves as a representative for all retro NES characters. He was Nintendo's original mascot for the NES, and he is easily the most iconic of all characters from that era. If any character deserves to replace G&W, it is he.
Here is the thing for Lyllod. Unfortunately..there is another who actually more popular than him. It's Kratos, Kratos seems more fit into Brawl. Seeing that he is slower than Llyod gives more of a Mage/Swordsman fits right in for Brawl. In fact I would rather have Kratos than Llyod..Llyod maybe the actual main character but Kratos is just too hard to pass up. He has soo much background in the that it is hard to pass up. I hope you see the other I do, because I see Llyod as just another wannabe teenager who happens to save the world...Kratos well, he is really interesting considering that he doesn't want to betray Mithos..
Well, Kratos might be cooler, but Lloyd is still the main character form Symphonia. I think if any character gets in, it will be him. But really, ANY Symphonia character in Brawl would be sweet.
Well, ya. You can't revolutionize an industry in the transition from 3D to better 3D as you could from 2D to 3D. I mean, SMG probably won't revolutionize much of anything unless every 3D game (or even Mario game) after it is gonna take place in space and involve exploring small floating objects. Ya, it'll probably be tons of fun. Ya, it'll probably be a pretty novel and unique experience. But, chances are, it won't change the 3D platforming genre or the video game industry as a whole much more than SMS did.
Really, though...Just because someone does it once doesn't mean it should be expected and thrust upon them to do it with every new version of a certain game. One person could say, "This game changed the gaming industry forever!"
And another could say, "This game's funner, has a nice difficulty curve that ends up at a healthy master difficulty, tighter controls, better music, an unstereotypical plot that is touched on more than once in the game, more character interaction, more practical objectives, better level design (quality over quantity), and, instead of random dimensions that contain mostly floating islands, the levels actually exist in the game world and can be seen from other levels."
"Ya, but it wasn't as revolutionary!"
"Ya, but this game is better in every aspect of gaming...besides quantity...Should we shun it for not making as impossible of a leap that everyone expected it to solely because of its prequel's despite the fact that it obviously wasn't from everything we knew about it and such a thing was never promised by the creators?"
Now...I dunno the implications of this conversation I had with myself but...ya.
Now every game has to inovate, this is true (two of my favorite games are Prime 2 and Tetris DS, after all) but in the case of a new 3-D Mario platformer, I think most people hold it in high regard since we usually only see one per generation.
With their first GC and Metroid titles, Nintendo produced games that were utterly unique and inspired. With their first GC Mario game, they gave us a polished sequel to an N64 game. I'm not saying it's bad, or even not great - but in comparison to other 3-D platformers from last gen (Ratchet and Clank in particular) Sunshine doesn't hold up as well as Prime or Windwaker.
Fortunatly, Galaxy looks like a game that will set a new standard for platformers, since it not only uses the Wii-mote in unique ways, but allows players to launch themselves from planetoid to planetoid in deep space. It also doesn't hurt that it has the best cartoon-esque graphics since Windwaker.
I just tend to believe that my favourite game is a prime example of a game that's good because it's good but hated because it wasn't as revolutionary or...audience expanding as it's predecessor.
No no no...they just shrunk Link and proportionately enlarged his head (which didn't interfere with any animations except his taunt) (this could apply to Pichu as well) just like they enlarged Capt. Falcon and elongated his neck to make Ganondorf. Or streched Fox to make Falco.
His body being different would require him to have a different idle, walking, running (due to Bowser's being hunched over), double jumping, air dodge, low percentage ledge attack, and dodge rolls animations (since Bowser goes inside his shell for these) alongside the attacks where he thrusts his shell and the rest where he goes inside of his shell. Actually...he's built a bit closer to Donkey Kong. Aside from DK's dashing animation, most of his animations would fit on K. Rool.
Also, I was planning on righting a sort of introspective on King Dedede as a Kirby clone (going move by move on how all of Kirby's moves would fit/clash with King Dedede) but now that you're being moved to change your mind on it I probably won't.
I/m not a programer, but it seems to me that if a character is at least comparable in body type they could make them a clone. Bowser and K.Rool are both bulky, heavy characters with claws and teeth so I think it would be possible to make K. Rool a luigified clone at least. IThen again, it's possible that I'm wrong.
As for Dx3, I've thought it over and decided that I was right - he COULD be made as a clone, though it is also possible he could be given a unique moveset. Sorry Smash Daddy...
Luigi: I don't agree that Luigi's current specials should change, although rediculous vacume cleaner style final smash would be amusing. I'm very much a fan of Mario and Luigi style cloning. Look similiar, huge difference in playstyle.
Bowser: I like the look of the current bowser and can't imagine him with a voice. His look and normal work reminds me of his original Super Mario Bros incarnation. A final smash using something like his giant propellor vehicle in SMW would be trippy. No one can argue that he needs to be more effective, though trading speed for weight may not be the best way to do it. I'm sure they will come up with something.
I dunno. After playing Sunshine and Super paper Mario, I would really like to see Boswer with more presonality, and a voice would be a great way to do it. Can't be at least have his signature laugh as a taunt?
Link: I haven't played Twilight Princess, as I don't yet have a wii, but TP Link being used is more of an indicator to me that they wanted the most detailed model of link to date, which seems logical. I think you might be reading into it a little too much, though I'm not bothered either way with what they end up using for all three token Zelda characters.
Bowser Jr: I haven't seen him with the paint-brush, but the idea sounds nice. Baby Mario/Luigi might be worth a mention. If not playable characters then atleast some form of token appearance.
WW Link: Hopefully the graphical difference will make the feel of the two links a lot more different than Link/Y.Link. Exchanging hookshot for the ninja rope thingy with differing properties also seems logical.
Zelda: I love the new design, I'm even considering maining her when the game comes out, depending on how much shes changed. I hope she is her own character also, though I don't hate Shiek as much as some people do on this board. Important thing is that Zelda felt/look bland in Melee and could use a makeover.
Gannondorf: I like the Melee version of Gannondorf, it's nice to have a heavy character that doesn't seem to lumber around with a giant hitbox. That said, adding the sword and changing his b moves to using it would be great. Moving Gannondorf away from being a falcon clone in more subtle ways would be better than changing him into an all new character in my opinion.
Jigglypuff: I love Jigglypuff. It/he/she brings fun times to FFA games and is overall an amusing character. Peoples loathing for Jiggly only makes the character more appealing to use.
Samus/Zamus: I'm worried about the transformation part too. I don't mind if it is irreversible (unless it's easy to do by accident), but I'm not fond of the idea of losing something the current Samus has. Samus doesn't need to change in playstyle at all, etc for balance issues of course (lol roll).
Fox: I play PAL version, where some of Fox's moves were weakened a lot. I definately hope to see him more balanced (weaken silly shine combos perhaps?), but I'll cry if they do what they did to him like what happened to Kirby.
Wolf: Completely biased here, but I think Wolf should outright replace Falco. No more annoying squarks. Falco is almost as annoying as Slippy in SF64, and should die in righteous fire.
Diddy Kong: I hope he appears, either solo or as an Ice-climbers style duo with Dixie. Diddy being deserving is obvious. Dixie missing out on being in all DK games on 64/Cube boggles my mind. She was a cool design and her not showing up for DK64 atleast was a sure sign that Rare needed its head kicked in at some point near the end of the 64s life.
Sonic: This would complete my 9 year old fantasy of having a game where Mario and Sonic fight. Any gamer that grew up through the 8-16 bit era should understand.
Mr. Game & Watch: I really hope they don't abandon him. He is both a fun and unique character and that should be enough to keep him in the next one. I mean, no one really cares if he is high tier and he clearly doesn't need much in the way of art time to throw in.
Mewtwo: Mewtwo I feel had the most unique feel in Melee, and most of his moves were unique in some way. It would be a pity to abandon such a fantastic character design, and I hope he not only makes it back, but gets more attention in the balance department.
Ice Climbers: Same as the above too really. Very interesting play style, I'd understand if they left them out due to silly things like wobbling for example.
Shiek: I like the look, but the character style is quite boring so I guess I don't mind seeing it gone. Hope Zamus has enough simularities for the Shiek fans to latch on (minus tier representation of course).
Anything I didn't respond too, I probably don't know the characters games very well, or simply didn't feel the need to comment. While your preference is wanting to see a buttload of new characters Wiseguy, my philosophy is that the bigger the range in style of fighters without breaking the game is key. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against clones, I'll just be disappointed if they lose G&W, IC and especially Mewtwo being the great characters that they are. Whether they are new or old doesn't bother me, because at the end of the day it won't matter after 50+ hours of gametime.
I can see your point, tough I would personally take three Luigis over one mewtwo any day. However, we;ll just have to wait for more character updates before we know for sure...
Oh . . . my . . . god. I can't believe I did that! *Squeal*
It's most definately the result of the fact that I'll probably never play as him, but then again, I could say the same about the majority of the newcomers.
Looks like Mach Rider or Olimar are going to have to take the back seat.
size: Small (taller and thinner than Pikachu) <--like you said
range: low/mid some melee attacks but also some mid attacks with her hair
strength: mid
speed: high
jump: low
reaction: mid
damage: mid
Yeah if she would appear solo i'd suppose her to be a really balanced char,smiliar to mario =/
Yep, I could possibly see that working (though I see Midna having excellent jumping capablilities). We could always use a few more characters as balanced as Mario...
considering how she jumps...
oh yeah I left that out!
Jumps: in TP when leaving the castle as wolf link for the first time, she jumps and hops in midair. Her jumps in Brawl, considering her personality and abilities, should be quite good too.
If reaction is how far she is thrown by attacks, she would be thrown quite far because of her size. so thats either high or low...
I could stand having another floaty character - as long as Midna's attacks aren't as unbalanced as Peach's (I don't consider her as broken as Sheik or Fox/Falco, but Peach is still in need of a nerf).
There's nothing wrong with adding in a little personal taste, providing that there's a good reason for it. You could say the same thing about omitting others, like Olimar or Mach Rider. Nobody knows who is getting in, so who's to say that character A is in and character B isn't (unless your talking about confirmed characters)?
I'm just jumping right in again for a different character list. Yes I've made one before, this is an 'improved' version, looking more at who might've been included earlier (I've heard of Pit and Sigurd in SSB64). Reasons are also added.
Mario Series: (5)
- Mario: Confirmed character.
- Luigi: He was one of the original 12. No way he's out. (Luigified Mario Clone)
- Peach: Did enough for the series, own game, was in Melee.. Yeah.
- Bowser: See above.
- Bowser Jr.: I had a hard time kicking out Shadow Mario. But, after much consideration, Shadow Mario would just be a Mario clone, and a useless transformation. Bowser Jr. did enough on his own.
Zelda Series: (4)
- Link: Confirmed character.
- Zelda: Confirmed character.
- Ganondorf: Everybody loves villains! I'm excited to see a real slow swordsman, would be a nice change from all the Marth/Roy stuff (I don't count Link as a swordsman, actually).
-Wolf Link/Midna: Midna on her own wouldn't work. She'd be a Zelda clone, while Midna and Wolf Link have enough. Midna also had a huge impact on the Zelda games, finally a good alternative from the annoying fairies. Not to mention 90% of the story resolved around her.
'What lo?! Just four characters for Zelda?!' I can hear you say. Yeah. We really don't need WW Link guys. Pokémon is more popular than Zelda, which has 4 characters as well. The only one that deserves the 5 is the Mario series. WW Link would be a useless clone who'd kick out Wolf Link/Midna for no reason.
Pokémon Series: (4)
- Pikachu: Confirmed character.
- Jigglypuff: I actually wasn't sure about this one. I heard stories about lack of time to produce SSB64, and that they dumped the making of a complicated moveset for Pit for Jiggly. And then she got into Melee for... Popularity? Huh? Now that America actually counts for these games, I figured she might get kicked out... But then again, I've seen people use her in a very good way. So we're stuck with her.
- Lucario: Must I really explain? A good movie, nice popularity, good possible moveset.
- Sudowoodo: Seriously, who wouldn't want to kick *** with this guy? =P
Metroid Series: (4)
- Samus Aran: Confirmed character.
- Zero Suit Samus: Confirmed character.
- Ridley: Must I really explain?
- Dark Samus: Just think about it. A dark, destructive Samus, bent on pure power and mass killing. One so evil that even the hair on the back of your neck wants to run for it's life. How awesome would that be? Besides, it's either Darky or a Hunter. (Luigified Samus Clone)
Star Fox Series: (3)
- Fox McCloud: Confirmed character.
- Wolf O' Donnell: More importance, more so than Falco, anyway. He'll replace Falco as the Fox clone, which I would be quite happy with. I play Falco myself, but I think Wolf deserves it more. And like I said, everybody loves villains! (Luigified Fox Clone)
- Krystal: Popularity? Check! Original possible moveset? Check! Importance? Check!
Fire Emblem Series: (3)
- Marth: First Fire Emblem lord. Popular in Japan, often used in Melee... Yep.
- Ike: Another popular FE lord. Both in America and Japan, often wanted... Sure, why not? (Marth Clone?! Sad but true.)
- Black Knight: Alright! Who likes villains? Slow swordsmen = good.
Kirby Series: (3)
- Kirby: Confirmed character.
- Metaknight: Confirmed character.
- King DeDeDe: Must I really explain?
Donkey Kong Series: (3)
- Donkey Kong: One of the original 12.
- Diddy Kong: Wario, Metaknight and Diddy were (most?) wanted for Melee, the first two got their conformation...
- King K.Rool: WHUT FD IT'S K.ROOL. Everybody loves villains, we need more slow characters. (Luigified Bowser Clone)
F-Zero Series: (2)
- Captain Falcon: One of the original 12.
- Samurai Goroh: I changed my mind?! WOW. Yeah, Goroh will replace the Black Shadow as Falcon's clone. Somebody in this thread told me about the fact that Goroh was in more games than Falcon was, which was enough to take me over to the Goroh side. I wouldn't be suprised if Black Shadow got in there after all though.(Captain Falcon clone)
Other Series: (8)
- Wario: Confirmed character.
- Pit: Confirmed character.
- Yoshi: Semi-confirmed.
- Ness: The last of the original 12.
- Balloon Fighter: Pit is retro. Balloon Fighter is too.
- Captain Olimar: And those who disagree must die. =P
- Mii: Because Wii connects people. The Mii is the Way.
- Isaac: Even if it's another swordie, Isaac's psynergy will put some changes into the fight! Zing!
Third Party: (3)
- Solid Snake: Confirmed character.
- Sonic: Obvious.
- Mega Man: Because another Konami character (Belmont) would be weird. Plus Capcom+Nintendo = good match.
Well, the only thing I really have a major problem with is your decision to omitt WW Young Link. C'mon man, some form of "Young Link" has starred in more Zelda games than other character in the series - and WW Link is the star of the exceptional Windwaker and the highly anticipated Phantom Hourglass. He wouldn't be a useless clone, he would be a fun and popular clone! Besides, he's a completely unique individual from TP Link, so we can still have Midna/Wolf.
Besides that, your list is just about perfect! 9.8/10.
wiseguy i agree with a lot of your points, especially with the pokeman comments. I have tried my hardest to get into that series, watching or playing, and i cant see why anyone over the age of 12 would like it. Its so childish. And jiggly has to go. I'd like to know why and how he makes it to EVERY smash game.
But some things i dont see with you are about young link and th emblem cats. Why would they use the windwaker young link? The animation was horrible for his body. It was like a bad joke. They should use minish cap link if any young link.
Regarding marth and roy....why can't they have them AND they new emblem guys? Isnt the wii much more powerful? If mugen can hold a 1000 chars, i think SSBB can hold a like 75. Thas not impossible...its a 2D game as far as fighting and i thought the wii was a lot more powerful than the gamecube?
Welcome to my thread! I'm glad you enjoyed my comments. I'll never know what people see in Pokemon...
Dude, isn't the Minish Cap Link pretty much identical in appearance to WW Link? Except for, you know, the Minish Cap? There's nothing wrong eith WW Link. Of all the Link's he i the one with the most unique personality and he is starring in the highly anticipated Phantom Hourglass to boot.
Three FE characters is probably the maximum, given the series somewhat niche status and the limited number of character slots. 65 characters would be awesome, but creating a game as balanced as Smash is pretty time consuming, so I somehow doubt that we'll see that many.
Yeah, I think controversy has a lot to do with it. When you cut as many characters as I did, it was bound to get some responce. But I think a large part of the thread's longevity can be credited to you fine folks who continue posting here! Thanks, by the way.
Yeah, my opinions about Falco are probably a little biased, but he has been one of the most significant characters in the series, more than Wolf, even slightly more than Krystal. It would be plain unfair to omit him. Not just to fans, but to everyone in general. I'd rather them include Sheik, frankly, than omit Falco.
In the recent games (Assault in particular) Wolf plays a greater role than Falco, so it's possible he could be included as Fox' new clone. I just can't see more than three SF characters, but I certianly wouldn't complain if that were the case.
...I dont think dutchman even read my previous post...
Midna couldn't be a Zelda clone.
ESPECIALLY if shes an imp or with wolf link.
Besides, as her human form, it would be basic spoilers for those who havent beaten twilight princess yet.
whaddoes everyone else think.
No matter what, though, wolf link at least deserves a trophy in the trophy collection area... if they are going to have one this time 'round.
heh, and about including sheik, I think most of the people that:
A: want her in are those that use her 99% of the time
or
B: want her out are those who get owned by her.
I personally wouldnt mind her being in, as a separate character.
I dont mind falco being in either, i mean, aint no problem, right?
Heh, I laugh that they put link on the "low" tier.
hehehe... thats funny.
I don't see Twili Midna as that big of a spoiler. She is depicted on the game manual, after all.
Twili Midna is a good alternative if they need to include her as a clone due to lack of time. But Midna/Wolf would be simply too unique to overlook, in my view.
Sheik isn't invincible, but she does give equally skilled opponents an unfair advantage against non-high tier characters. She has to go.
I had to flame a character to get a response to my post no? I guess I shouldn't complain too much, as with no falco there would've been such a massive player base playing fox. Doesn't change the fact that I find him irritating and dorky, which is more of a critique on Starfox 64 than how he plays in Melee, so no hard feelings.
I seriously doubt that Ike would be even close to a Marth clone. They'll likely have very different styles and will be a great example of how differently sword wielders can fight.
I agree with you, to a point. Ike and Marth are different enough (in terms of fighting style)that it would be fairly odd and out of place to have one the clone of the other. However, they would be similar enough (given the reality that they are both guys with large, one handed swords) so I don't think it is worth the effort to spend time on a unique moveset for both of them. Thus, Marth should be cut.
They could simply use Marth's old moveset. It may not be as fast as the copy and paste method for cloning the Black Knight, but they would also have to give him a specific weight, fallspeed, attack speed, power, ect. Why even bother when they could just take Marth and use his already made stats. They could just tweak a few things and you'd have a great returning character.
Well, the most obvious answer is because Marth's "already made stats" make him a pretty broken character. If he were to be included, he would have to be nerfed drastically, so he may be just as time consuming to include as a completely new character.
The thing is, they didn't put another graceful swordsman. They put Marth, and by doing so they gave HIM a very large fan base. If they hadn't put Marth, then we wouldn't be talking about this. Taking him out is a much different case than not putting him in. NOW he is an established character. Melee revived a lot of his long forgotten fans and made plenty new ones.
Call me crazy, but I don't think being a popular fighter justifies a return appearance. This is because ANY character with a powerful moveset will automatically become very popular. If Marth returns, and is no longer as stupidly overpowered, most of his so called "fans" will simply play as another character.
In my view, in order for a character to be worthy of facing off against videogame legends like Mario, Link and Solid Snake they have to be judjed based on their importance in videogames OUTSIDE Smash Bros.
Yes the huge sword helps, but that's not the reason we like him so much. We like him because his moves are very flowing. Every one of his moves is like a pose with precision and poise. And his range is not something that is impossible to get around. Fox, Falco, Falcon, Shiek, Samus, ect. can easily deal with his range, whether it be with raw speed or a strong projectile.
We can still have swordfighters with "flowing" movesets (ie: Pit, Metakinght, Simon Belmont etc.) but they should be first and foremost be a worthy representative of their series of origin. And Marth isn't.
At the moment, Marth is still much more popular than the Black Knight and Miciaiah, so taking him out and replacing him with an unknown character would dissapoint a lot of his fans.
Yes but, quite frankly, they'll get over it. Marth and Roy aslo started out as unknown characters as well (at least outside Japan) but now they are very well known. ANY Fire Emblem character has the potential to be a fun and popular fighter, so why not choose characters who are unique and currently relevant to the Fire Embelm franchise?
Though he may be a dead character outside of melee, he is a very popular melee character. He is one of the MOST popular melee characters and, with Melee being such a successful game, already represents FE. Everybody who knows who Marth is knows he's from FE. Everybody who plays melee knows who Marth is. That means Marth is known by an extremely large amount of melee fans and to them, he IS FE.
It's not Marth that's popular - it's his moveset that everyone loves. So, why not take a similar character like Ike (who IS a worthy representative of his series) and make his moveset similar to Marth's. Just make him a tad slower (to contrast with speedy swordfighters like Meta and Pit) change his vertical slashes to horizontal ones and make his B a ranged energy attack. That way, we'd have a Marth replacement who is popular among Fire Embelm fans around the world and still appealing to Marth players.
Also, Marth is no more well known to Melee fans than Roy is. The only reason people assume that Marth stands a better chance of returning is becuase he has a more powerful moveset.
Marth's role was always as a representative of the Fire emblem series - not as a unique character designed specifically for Melee. Therefore, it is soley on his importance to the Fire emblem series that Marth should be judged.
you forgot sothe on your fire emblem list he main character in that new fire emblem game too he a thief and owns hard I want him in pic of sothe:
poke mon trainers should be in the custom ones from( battle revolution) they use your pokemon team to do combos and can trap opponents in poke balls I believe trainers have been ignored for far to long deserve the smash spotlight for once!!!!!!
While Sothe is awesome, and an important character in the game, he is not a lord - which some people have a problem with. Personally, I think he would be an awesome and unique addtion that I would easily inlcude over a certain tiarra wearing pansy...
Metal Gear is filled with awesome characters, Psycho Mantis being one of them. Unfortunately, he could be beaten easily whenever his opponent puts their controller in the Player 4 socket...
I guess it would just be like 4 ice climbers in one match -.- However, I am dismissing Olimar, because he is just too gimicky. How could you base a whole, good moveset on Captain Olimar - I would like this to see!
Anyways, in the Fire Emblem debate; I see that Sothe is not a likely choice as a main Fire Emblem character. I think he would be a secondary or tertiary (or... more?) character, with Ike as the main FE character. The reason for this is that Sothe is a thief with two knifes - He's just not generic enough. Ike would be a much better choice, as he is a very well balanced swordsman a la Marth!
did you see the update? they already made the starting character selection screen. plus, earlier, (not on this thread) i had guessed you would choose controller configuration with your name. but with the starter list already made, and the surprise update of zelda makes me think that if people like olimar and diddy kong are starters, they are already finished, but Sakurai is finishing with meta-knight, zzs, and snake before he puts more on.
sorry for going completly off topic, but i wanted to point that out.
I wouldn't take anything from the "Starting Screen" comment. He's probably bluffing... Even if it is decided, I doubt he has completed all of them. And we don't know who they are anyways.
I wouldn't say that he's bluffing. He just does a darn good job concealing information. It's quite possible that, if the starter screen is comprised of characters already announced, that we may only get to start with 6-8 characters. This could lead to a ton of characters left over to unlock, which, in my eyes, is a very good thing.
You clearly do not frequent this thread too much. The Wall of Pain is not only a Jigglypuff combo - it's Wiseguy's signature attack, where he drops a wall of text with enough density and good ideas on it that the sheer weight is enough to make your brain need a reboot.
*snipes Wisey in the leg with a Maian Farsight XR-20 rifle as he runs*. I thought Smash Daddy had already gone over this with you. Dedede will NOT be a clone! .
I'd wish I could apport more... there's a lot I want to answer to. **** it, computer, start working again!
I think he'll reveal a large portion of the roster, but not the entire thing. Odds are that we'll know about all of the 'show-stoppers' like additional third party additions and new, major Nintendo franchise representation, because they're going to let out any information they can that is going to sell copies.
Sonic will. Simon will. Megaman will. Geno will. Ike will. The list goes on and on.
I don't see Twili Midna as that big of a spoiler. She is depicted on the game manual, after all.
Twili Midna is a good alternative if they need to include her as a clone due to lack of time. But Midna/Wolf would be simply too unique to overlook, in my view.
Sheik isn't invincible, but she does give equally skilled opponents an unfair advantage against non-high tier characters. She has to go.
I know she is... Technically nobody really knows who/what that is until the end... unless they're really good or were told.
Yeah, if none of you havent noticed by now, Im for Imp midna, because Technically wolf/imp combo is just ANOTHER link (Even though, you KNOW he would have a different moveset.) I for one dont like the idea of another link too much... considering most/some people think there will be two already. I also can imagine it easier to move as a free floating solo Imp Midna. Heh, but whatever. Her in the game somewhat is good for me.
Hmm... Now, about sheik. I myself AM a master with link (Though I do no know SHFFLs at all). But every time my friend comes over, hes a master with falco... well, you know how that turns out. THe one time I DID beat him, he blamed it on the fact that "we teamed up against him" because we were playing 2 on 2. Meh but why am I rambling on. Oh yeah:
I totally have my bet that If I had mastered SHeik rather than Link, I would be doing much better. (or if I just am able to play with friends rather than computers 99% of the time)... idk.
Actually, Ragnell is a two handed sword. They wouldn't need to spend time working on a unique moveset for Marth because he already has one. All they'd have to do is make a moveset for Ike and then clone that on the Black Knight. That means they really only need to make one NEW moveset. That would save a lot of time.
Have you ever considered that Marth players don't think of his moveset as "Cheap." Marth players stare at Fox and Falco and Shiek and realize that they will never be able to move that fast because of the limits of their character. And yet we play him anyway because he's more fun. We like to see those long combos with one move flowing to the next. We're forced to predict our opponents rather than simply overpowering them with tech skill, and it makes us better players. Marth uses his sword as a simple extension of his arm rather than a foriegn object to be used as a weapon. People complain about his range, but his sword isn't really that long for a Jaoanese sword. It's really only a little longer than a katana.
You can't judge him soley on his importance in FE anymorebecause he is in melee. He's already impacted millions of people as a character in melee and is already the face of FE because of it. Ike will indeed be a very popular character, but everyone will still think of Marth as the first FE character because he was introduced first.
IMO his apearance in melee increased his importance to the FE franchise, since he's the one that got western gamers so interested in it. Being a great character certainly helped that, because it means more people played him and more people were interested in where he came from.
Tiny nitpicky suggestion: Get better screens for the confirmed characters (like the ones from their profiles). It will make it look a lot more visually appealling.
Have you ever considered that Marth players don't think of his moveset as "Cheap." Marth players stare at Fox and Falco and Shiek and realize that they will never be able to move that fast because of the limits of their character. And yet we play him anyway because he's more fun. We like to see those long combos with one move flowing to the next. We're forced to predict our opponents rather than simply overpowering them with tech skill, and it makes us better players. Marth uses his sword as a simple extension of his arm rather than a foriegn object to be used as a weapon. People complain about his range, but his sword isn't really that long for a Jaoanese sword. It's really only a little longer than a katana.
I was in agreement right up until you started preaching about his sword. That poetic mumbo-jumbo does nothing to change the fact that he has more range than any other character in the game. Combined with a sleugh of fast and high priority attacks, this leads to many people seeing him as a "cheap" character.
You can't judge him soley on his importance in FE anymorebecause he is in melee. He's already impacted millions of people as a character in melee and is already the face of FE because of it. Ike will indeed be a very popular character, but everyone will still think of Marth as the first FE character because he was introduced first.
IMO his apearance in melee increased his importance to the FE franchise, since he's the one that got western gamers so interested in it. Being a great character certainly helped that, because it means more people played him and more people were interested in where he came from.
In retrospect, exposure to the public from games like Melee should in no way justify a return in the sequel. Marth and Roy were entered into Melee to introduce more Westerners to the series, but tell me, how many FE games have you actually played through with Marth in them? Trust me, he's not as important to the world as you think he is. Someone more widely known for the Fire Emblem series itself (not Melee), like Ike, should be taking his place.
I kept explaining that I couldnt hit him with attacks because of higher priority attacks of his (when we attack at the same time), and he always uses the excuse of timing.
pfff...timing.
Timing is a key element, but it's really dependent on what character you're both using, with which attacks, in what position, etc.
Falco does have a lot of moves that are hard to overpower, but many characters do have moves that can stop him. It's just a matter of finding out what those moves are.
Well, I felt that it came down to either Falco or Wolf appearing as Fox's clone. I originally inlcuded Falco, but all the Wolf fans gave me grief. Now all the Falco fans are getting after me. I can't win...
*snipes Wisey in the leg with a Maian Farsight XR-20 rifle as he runs*. I thought Smash Daddy had already gone over this with you. Dedede will NOT be a clone! .
I'd wish I could apport more... there's a lot I want to answer to. **** it, computer, start working again!
Dang it, why is it that I never anticipate the Maian Farsight...
I was on the verge of being persuaded by SD for a while, but the more I think about it the more I can picture Kirby's moveset working for Dx3. It's possible that I don't fully understand what it would require to make a clone like Dx3 possible, but I think I'm going to stick with that prediction for the time being.
I think he'll reveal a large portion of the roster, but not the entire thing. Odds are that we'll know about all of the 'show-stoppers' like additional third party additions and new, major Nintendo franchise representation, because they're going to let out any information they can that is going to sell copies.
Sonic will. Simon will. Megaman will. Geno will. Ike will. The list goes on and on.
yeah, that makes sense. Of course, as soon as the unlockable characters are discovered it will be all over the internet - so they won't stay a surprise for long, regardless.
I know she is... Technically nobody really knows who/what that is until the end... unless they're really good or were told.
Yeah, if none of you havent noticed by now, Im for Imp midna, because Technically wolf/imp combo is just ANOTHER link (Even though, you KNOW he would have a different moveset.) I for one dont like the idea of another link too much... considering most/some people think there will be two already. I also can imagine it easier to move as a free floating solo Imp Midna. Heh, but whatever. Her in the game somewhat is good for me.
Hmm... Now, about sheik. I myself AM a master with link (Though I do no know SHFFLs at all). But every time my friend comes over, hes a master with falco... well, you know how that turns out. THe one time I DID beat him, he blamed it on the fact that "we teamed up against him" because we were playing 2 on 2. Meh but why am I rambling on. Oh yeah:
I totally have my bet that If I had mastered SHeik rather than Link, I would be doing much better. (or if I just am able to play with friends rather than computers 99% of the time)... idk.
Maybe it's just me, but the Twili Midna thing seemed pretty obvious from the moment I saw the manual.
Since TP Link and WW Link are separate individuals, having Wolf Link would be no different than having Mario, Luigi and Dr. mario in the same game - in my view.
Yeah, if you mastered Sheik, you might be winning more matches in the present. However, unlike Link, Sheik isn't returning - so you would have to master a whole new character.
Actually, Ragnell is a two handed sword. They wouldn't need to spend time working on a unique moveset for Marth because he already has one. All they'd have to do is make a moveset for Ike and then clone that on the Black Knight. That means they really only need to make one NEW moveset. That would save a lot of time.
In this video, Ike is clearly shown fighting while holding his sword with one hand. As near as I can tell, he only uses two hands during his super attack (the name of which escapes me at the moment...)
Have you ever considered that Marth players don't think of his moveset as "Cheap." Marth players stare at Fox and Falco and Shiek and realize that they will never be able to move that fast because of the limits of their character. And yet we play him anyway because he's more fun. We like to see those long combos with one move flowing to the next. We're forced to predict our opponents rather than simply overpowering them with tech skill, and it makes us better players. Marth uses his sword as a simple extension of his arm rather than a foriegn object to be used as a weapon. People complain about his range, but his sword isn't really that long for a Jaoanese sword. It's really only a little longer than a katana.
Compared to other broken characters like Fox, Falco and Sheik - Marth is about equal, perhaps even at a slight disadvantage. But against an equally skilled Mario or Link player, Marth has a noticable advantage. And against DK, Kirby or Ness... you get the idea.
I harbour no ill will towards Marth players, or any players for that matter. You should play whoever you like, may the best player win. But Sakurai needs to be concerned with balancing the game as much as possible - and that means nerfing Marth's moveset should it return. Fox will most likely meet a similar fate.
You can't judge him soley on his importance in FE anymorebecause he is in melee. He's already impacted millions of people as a character in melee and is already the face of FE because of it. Ike will indeed be a very popular character, but everyone will still think of Marth as the first FE character because he was introduced first.
IMO his apearance in melee increased his importance to the FE franchise, since he's the one that got western gamers so interested in it. Being a great character certainly helped that, because it means more people played him and more people were interested in where he came from.
Marth's importance to the fire Emblem series remained unchanged - becuase Melee is not a FE game. He and Roy became more well known, yes - but no less so than Pichu or Mr. G&W. The fact that Marth is used so often is simply because his moveset is more popular - not because of his role in the FE series.
Marth and Roy introduced Western gamers to the FE series - hats off to them. But that desn't make them worthy representatives of the FE series in the here and now. It's the Fire Emblem games, and their characters, that matter when deciding who should represent the series.
Tiny nitpicky suggestion: Get better screens for the confirmed characters (like the ones from their profiles). It will make it look a lot more visually appealling.
Fair enough. If his Knightliness agrees, you can use his WW sig for another month you've finished with mine. Boy, are going to get sick of looking at that character...
Edit: I can't find the place in Gray Fox's profile that I miss spelled Sakurai. Are you sure it wasn't somewhere else in my original post?
@wiseguy
i'll check. and all the character will be given away before brawl is released, said sakurai. he said that he will do it because someone will post them on the internet the day after the release anyways.
I demand the Happy mask salesman be put on the list of runner up characters immediately. I also think that the clock tower from Majora's mask should be a stage. It would work like this. You would start the fight sometime during the third day and as time goes by the moon will get closer and closer to the stage and during night time it will be close enough for someone to be knocked into it's mouth for a K.O and moons tears will fall from it's eyes every once in a while. After a little more time goes by the four giants will come to hold the moon up but then the Skull Kid (who will be floating in the background the whole time watching) will start to scream and flail around like he did when the oath to order was played. After he falls to the ground the mask will fly up into the moon and it's eyes will glow and the four giants will start to struggle to keep the moon up (sound familiar) and when all hope seems lost and as the four giants lose the last of their strength the entire screen will turn white for a second and it will revert to the dawn of the third day while the faint laughter of the Happy mask salesman can be heard in the background.
@numa dude
no, because skull kid will be a playable character. and as for the happy mask salesman, he is pure evil. and would be fun to pwn with, so i agree.
As much as I want SK to be playable I doubt he will (Although he sure as hell has more chance than a certain Imp who likes to hump wolves we all know and love).
As much as I want SK to be playable I doubt he will (Although he sure as hell has more chance than a certain Imp who likes to hump wolves we all know and love).
@ numa dude
i agree that midna has no chance, especially riding wolf link as ferro de lupe was trying to say had a chance. and what is your reasoning that skull kid won't be playable?
Even though I have never played any of the games with him I think Vaati has the highest chance for the new Zelda rep because he is seen as cell shaded Link's rival.
I don't think that Skull Kid having a few more votes in vs thread on one forum means that he is more popular everywhere. Vaati still has a big fan following if you go to the right places, though I can't say I've seen a huge commotion for their inclusion to the other forums I go to for either of them.
Still, I think Tingle's chances shot up immensely now that his game is confirmed for a European release, so he'll probably get in before both of them.
Edit: whoops, took my time on that.
The answer you're looking for is 3, though unlike SK, all of Vaati's roles were pretty major.
Wiseguy, you forget that Geno followers form a sort of cult. Now, not to threaten you (warnings are bad for the soul), but I'd be afraid if I were you; you really shouldn't have listed your location (crap, it's a big city. You got lucky.)
All jokes aside, your list was okay. Your reasons for getting rid of ICs, G&W, Mewtwo (the original 00ber), Marth, and Shiek (five characters with original, imaginative movesets) were sketchy at best.
And since when were there a set amount of third-party "slots." I'll tell ya when: since never. Just because Geno is in the game doesn't mean Black Mage or Sora couldn't be; just look at your suggesting of Simon Belmont, a second (2nd) rep from Konami.
I honestly have no idea why there should be any other Legend of Zelda characters after Link, Zelda, and Ganon. The rest are just a plethora of side characters that hold no real significance to the series as a whole (aside from WW Link, but come on, one Link is enough). Save some space for some other franchises, already.
@copperpot
i would like skull kid because he is cool and could be unique with major's mask. 4 is good rep for a popular series.
@lukefonfabre
just goes to show how little i know. SKULL KID FTW
It's more of the fact that Zelda is one of Nintendo's biggest franchises, so it's obviously going to get more attention than other franchises and most likely quite a few characters. Though I agree, outside of he big 3 it's hard to pick out another rep (Cel Link could happen, and Tingle's plausible despite his lack of good reception in the west).
Still, I'd surprised if the Zelda franchise got less than 5 reps.
Edit: what, twice on one page XD
I don't have a problem with SK really, I think it's quite close between high and Vaati for another Zelda villain rep. I just don't think either character has much over the other.
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