Project M Social Thread

[Shadic]

I think for the rest of it, it's more of a customizable control option. Like button configuration or tap to jump.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i agree with having a set buffer. this is supposed to be melee 2.0, lets keep that buffer.

 

[Shadic]

Except it's been discussed that Melee's buffer was dumb and random, not to mention hard to replace.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I might be setting up ProjectM for PCChris/Cort/Other cool peoples to play on Thursday...
If they start doing cool **** should I save the replay and upload?!

+1 for 0 buffer, except for like buffer rolls and stuff.
I played Brawl for the first time in a while on Saturday, and I got ****ed over so hard by buffer it was silly.
-DD

 

[shanus]

I might be setting up ProjectM for PCChris/Cort/Other cool peoples to play on Thursday...
If they start doing cool ****e should I save the replay and upload?!

+1 for 0 buffer, except for like buffer rolls and stuff.
I played Brawl for the first time in a while on Saturday, and I got ****ed over so hard by buffer it was silly.
-DD

send em my way first, i might use some of the stuff for trailer then

 

[Dingding123]

I might be setting up ProjectM for PCChris/Cort/Other cool peoples to play on Thursday...
If they start doing cool ****e should I save the replay and upload?!

-DD

P:M + melee pros + replays + upload = (mad hype) • (mad hype)

 

[DarkDragoon]

send em my way first, i might use some of the stuff for trailer then

k.
If there is anything awesome that should be coming out soon, make it quick/stable so they can use it.
-DD

 

[ValTroX]

shanus, try to get that Falco shield to work awesomely or PCChris is gonna ***** about it =/

 

[shanus]

k.
If there is anything awesome that should be coming out soon, make it quick/stable so they can use it.
-DD

Just make sure you are using the latest and greatest SVN build (let me know if you don't have it set-up, its amazing).

 

[ETWIST51294]

shanus, try to get that Falco shield to work awesomely or PCChris is gonna ***** about it =/

lol PC is too easygoing to ***** about something, he'll say he doesn't like it, but he won't *****.

PC will be the first top pro to play, correct?

 

[ValTroX]

Either way xD I like the idea of him testing it

 

[Rikana]

Oh ****. PC chris is gonna be able to try it out? Hopefully he'll give a positive feedback cause that will affect many other Melee players.

 

[peachfvl]

I might be setting up ProjectM for PCChris/Cort/Other cool peoples to play on Thursday...
If they start doing cool ****e should I save the replay and upload?!

+1 for 0 buffer, except for like buffer rolls and stuff.
I played Brawl for the first time in a while on Saturday, and I got ****ed over so hard by buffer it was silly.
-DD

so are falco and peach tuned to melee physics?

hope they like it and start doing nice stuff quickly so there will be a lot of material to upload

 

[BEES]

0 buffering on 99% of melee is an aspect in separating the great players and the really great players. This goes into everything down to how fast a player can be with there character. If you know the timings really well because you practice, you will have a faster Fox, ganon etc then someone who doesn't put the time in. If you don't put the time in and try to be as fast as the fastest ganon, fox ect then you will miss a LOT because you simply haven't put the effort in learning the timings. Unless you practice, your ganon, fox ect will always be frames slower than the ganon, fox ect that does practice.

Buffering throws all this out the window by minimizing or removing the demand on the player to get good.

One issue with removing the buffer system is that unless every attack has its exact Melee timing, it forces everyone to relearn the exact timing for everything, for a game almost no one plays.

I don't claim to have any standing in the community or any authority on the project, but I think a 0-3 frame conditional buffer is the smartest way to go. There's no way that would make the game 'easy mode' compared to Brawl. There's no reason to assume that the window without the buffer wouldn't be harder than it is in Melee for a number of attacks that were designed with a buffer system in mind.

 

[Archangel]

My day is made. Trailer in the works and my boy PC testing the game. God is good, So is Project M.

 

[Dingding123]

My day is made. Trailer in the works and my boy PC testing the game. God is good, So is Project M.

Amen, brother.

 

[kupo15]

One issue with removing the buffer system is that unless every attack has its exact Melee timing, it forces everyone to relearn the exact timing for everything, for a game almost no one plays.

I don't claim to have any standing in the community or any authority on the project, but I think a 0-3 frame conditional buffer is the smartest way to go. There's no way that would make the game 'easy mode' compared to Brawl. There's no reason to assume that the window without the buffer wouldn't be harder than it is in Melee for a number of attacks that were designed with a buffer system in mind.

How about lets compromise at a set 1 frame buffer.

 

[Shell]

Given how widely the viewpoints on this vary I think the best solution remains to leave it in the hands of the TOs, and that is my final decision for whatever weight I carry.

 

[Kix]

So then if the TOs were to say they want a universal buffer, would we ('we', as if I'm involved) just go that direction? It seems more disorganized if they were to have differing viewpoints and say buffer has to be this-or-that, or can be free. I actually would like to have a vote by a good deal of tourney going Melee players especially. I want to know what they think feels closest to Melee, and if there is a large agreement I think it would be good to go with that, or average what they think.

I think, disregarding very high buffer that you're really at just an easier point without really having to worry about messing things up. I think argument really only stands for very high buffering, but I could be wrong. Otherwise this is really for solidarity's sake.

 

[Dan_X]

I see nothing wrong with keeping buffer. As others have eloquently put, it's a "double-edged sword" as is. Differing buffers are better from player to player, and character to character. Preference is good. It will NOT effect the outcome of tournaments.

Here's a more realistic point that is closely related to this pointless arguement. Is there a standard for mouse-sensitivity in competitive FPS gameplay? To my knowledge, there is no such standard. As each person feels comfortable with their own settings. What works best for one person may not for the next. FPSes have a huge competitive following.

Kupo (I mention you specifically because your a voice others look to, namely others in favor of removing buffer), generally I agree with your points, but this time I have to disagree. I mean, your desire to remove buffer would be like someone trying to impose a sensitivity standard in competitive FPSes. In the end, practice makes perfect in both scenarios, no matter what your preferences.

 

[Haseo1101]

My day is made. Trailer in the works and my boy PC testing the game. God is good, So is Project M.

Ditto dhat

 

[JCaesar]

lol PC is too easygoing to ***** about something, he'll say he doesn't like it, but he won't *****.

PC will be the first top pro to play, correct?

Well I know the top Melee players in England have all played, and here in MD/VA Travis AKA Chinesahh has played (and within the next month or so I will definitely get Chudat and possibly Boss to play), but yes, PC is probably the first player on that level to play.

I see nothing wrong with keeping buffer. As others have eloquently put, it's a "double-edged sword" as is. Differing buffers are better from player to player, and character to character. Preference is good. It will NOT effect the outcome of tournaments.

Here's a more realistic point that is closely related to this pointless arguement. Is there a standard for mouse-sensitivity in competitive FPS gameplay? To my knowledge, there is no such standard. As each person feels comfortable with their own settings. What works best for one person may not for the next. FPSes have a huge competitive following.

Kupo (I mention you specifically because your a voice others look to, namely others in favor of removing buffer), generally I agree with your points, but this time I have to disagree. I mean, your desire to remove buffer would be like someone trying to impose a sensitivity standard in competitive FPSes. In the end, practice makes perfect in both scenarios, no matter what your preferences.

That's actually a pretty decent analogy. High buffer is like having low sensitivity. It's easier to aim where you want to, but your overall game will suffer because you won't be as fast as players who have mastered precision shots on higher sensitivity.

But like Shell said, you could just leave buffer in and leave it up to TOs whether they want to have a standardized buffer for their tournaments. It's not hard to do and it makes everyone happy.

 

[Sterowent]

well, you also must consider that not each character is the same in the way that not all FPS players play with the same weapons.

i mean, a sniper generally wouldn't put a high mouse sensitivity on account of how accurate he'd have to be, whereas some explosive-rich player...
in the same sense, this gives characters like jigglypuff and sheik an even easier time, whereas characters like fox or sonic would get much less of a benefit.

perhaps i don't know what i'm talking about, though. what it seems like, however, is that characters with basically autocombos will need less work to make their characters succeed than previously. that sounds ugly to me.

 

[SiD]

I apologize if the following has been addressed already:

In Melee, when you had your shield up and held left/right/down on the cstick, you would continuously roll/spotdodge. More importantly, if you started holding it early, you would roll/spotdodge as soon as you were able. This isn't in Brawl or Brawl+, and I use it alot in Melee.

 

[shanus]

I apologize if the following has been addressed already:

In Melee, when you had your shield up and held left/right/down on the cstick, you would continuously roll/spotdodge. More importantly, if you started holding it early, you would roll/spotdodge as soon as you were able. This isn't in Brawl or Brawl+, and I use it alot in Melee.

The problem is the entire c-stick counts as a "button." I've never tested if "Cstick" as a button press can be paired with checking the joystick variables. I have a feeling they won't match though

 

[kupo15]

I see nothing wrong with keeping buffer. As others have eloquently put, it's a "double-edged sword" as is. Differing buffers are better from player to player, and character to character. Preference is good. It will NOT effect the outcome of tournaments.

Here's a more realistic point that is closely related to this pointless arguement. Is there a standard for mouse-sensitivity in competitive FPS gameplay? To my knowledge, there is no such standard. As each person feels comfortable with their own settings. What works best for one person may not for the next. FPSes have a huge competitive following.

Kupo (I mention you specifically because your a voice others look to, namely others in favor of removing buffer), generally I agree with your points, but this time I have to disagree. I mean, your desire to remove buffer would be like someone trying to impose a sensitivity standard in competitive FPSes. In the end, practice makes perfect in both scenarios, no matter what your preferences.

I disagree with this analogy because FPS and Smash are not the same type of game. The sensitivity system in FPS don't have the doubled edge sword thing. If you are good enough to handle a higher sensitity setting, then you as the better player are faster as a result over the low sensitivity players. In smash, it doesn't matter what buffer you use, you can't go faster than how fast your character is programmed.

So in short, if the better player can handle higher sensitivity settings and fights and lower skilled player who can only handle lower sensitivity (and they are both comfortable with their setting) then the better player has the upper hand because he is faster.

In smash, if the same example happens where they both feel comfortable with their high or low setting buffer, the outcome is exactly the same.

 

[Anth0ny]

My day is made. Trailer in the works and my boy PC testing the game. God is good, So is Project M.

qft

PC playing is awesome!

 

[kaizo13]

I disagree with this analogy because FPS and Smash are not the same type of game. The sensitivity system in FPS don't have the doubled edge sword thing. If you are good enough to handle a higher sensitity setting, then you as the better player are faster as a result over the low sensitivity players. In smash, it doesn't matter what buffer you use, you can't go faster than how fast your character is programmed.

So in short, if the better player can handle higher sensitivity settings and fights and lower skilled player who can only handle lower sensitivity (and they are both comfortable with their setting) then the better player has the upper hand because he is faster.

In smash, if the same example happens where they both feel comfortable with their high or low setting buffer, the outcome is exactly the same.

i'm gonna have to agree with kupo here. One thing that made Melee really fun for me was the fact that it was challenging and you actually had to "practice" to execute tech-skill based maneuvers.

 

[Shadic]

And you think that buffer is going to make it so people won't have to practice tech skill?

 

[kaizo13]

not necessarily, but it will certainly be a factor towards tech-skill which may not be best for competetive play. I like the idea of a default set buffer, although the situation changes when wi-fi comes into play so....meh. Having buffer options for online doesn't really matter as for, who really takes wi-fi seriously?, but maybe having a set buffer for tourneys and such....idk just an opinion

 

[Shell]

Buffer might make your raw inputs faster, but it doesn't make you precise.

There's a lot more to speed and technicality than what buffer can help you with (and in some cases might actually hinder).

For example, sometimes it's important to know when to start something... check out the skill involved in predicting and punishing this get-up attack(@3:18ish), for example. That isn't purely tech skill there, per se, but I was just trying to illustrate that speed is about more than inputting something on the first frame after a period of not being able to input something.

Furthermore, from a purely 'respect' standpoint, being able to effectively (and possibly creatively) incorporate an AT into your gameplay / mindgames in all new ('Oh ****!' kind of) way is much more impressive than just the raw act of inputting it.

 

[kaizo13]

yea i can see your point if i look from different angles, the truth is, buffer is such a wide topic that sometimes i question myself about what i just said. But anyways, i say we just sit back and watch Project M work its magic

oh and btw, I've been lurking these forums since brawl+ was only a fetus but never really saw a reason to make an account....until now (Project M is to blame )

Mad Hype

 

[Kix]

People having to do things the same way really just makes the game so that there is equal skill in execution, in all aspects. It also makes the core game seem more like Mugen in a way if it's released with something so odd as buffer choice. I just don't want to play tight and have this guy press the buttons frames apart without timing and get the same result when I don't want to have to play with that buffer to get the same result of easiness, even though I could.

I don't think anyone would be hurt from a 1-2 buffer, and probably even a 0 without dead frame. There's no system depth added by the buffer whatsoever, and I think for what the game is supposed to be it make it seem like a less serious package.

 

[Dingding123]

Quick question: what are yall's thoughts on buffering?

Dad gum, all I wanted was a quick answer and I wind up getting a 4-page debate. Oh well; at least we can now safely say that this project has gotten some attention.

And yeah, I'm still all for a little to 0 buffer. At the very least, it will give a more serious vibe to players and it will urge people to get techskill, which is exactly what this game will need to be amazing.

 

[Dai Tian]

Since the idea's being thrown around I'm curious enough to ask. Is it even possible to put a buffer in that doesn't go as high as 10 frames? Or is the choice strictly between no buffer and the 0-10 buffer we have now?

 

[Almas]

It'd be entirely possible to just stop people from going above some value other than 10 if desired. 10 is a limit enforced by the system, but there is no reason we cannot impose our own. It would also be possible to enforce a minimum buffer.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The reason that I don't think buffer should be in project M is that it allows players to be faster without practicing proper timing. Basically, I don't agree with players being able to react as quickly as possible after lag times without ever practicing. Knowing how long your spotdodge lasts, or the time you have to wait before you can IASA an attack, or even just waiting to slide off the edge of an edge cancel before attacking, is a tangible reward for practice and experience. You EARN the right to be faster than your opponents, because you learned when your lag ends.

Being frame perfect is supposed to be hard.

Also, please don't use the "buffer is a double edged sword" argument, because quite frankly that just doesn't apply to low buffer settings. A 2 frame buffer can extend a 4 frame window into a 6 frame window, which is very easy to be consistent with. Yet at the same time, those 2 frames are almost negligible when it comes to decision making, because it's doubtful that you'll input a move YOU DON'T WANT 2 frames before you're able to perform it.

So at low buffer settings, buffer arguably has no downsides. The precision you lose from buffering unwanted attacks (which is negligible) doesn't even compare to the precision you gain from having larger windows on all consecutive actions.



Now then, I'm not suggesting we remove buffer from the game. I think adjustable buffer should be left intact for release, as it serves many good functions for practicing (if you know how fast you CAN go, it's easier to see if you're doing it right). I just think conditional buffer (or no buffer if that can't be done) should be the standard setting.

 

[Almas]

Players cannot, though, be expected to know how long the hitstun from each specific attack will last, so that they know when to attempt to wobble/attack. Removing buffer in these circumstances serves to make the game more clunky and promote trying to mash out of combos instead of timing them.

It's alright talking about how buffer reduces the tech skill requirement of certain feats, but many people neglect to consider its other implications on making the game play smoothly.

 

[jalued]

Players cannot, though, be expected to know how long the hitstun from each specific attack will last, so that they know when to attempt to wobble/attack. Removing buffer in these circumstances serves to make the game more clunky and promote trying to mash out of combos instead of timing them.

It's alright talking about how buffer reduces the tech skill requirement of certain feats, but many people neglect to consider its other implications on making the game play smoothly.

how did melee buffer work then? my understanding of it was that out of hitstun gave buffer, but nothing else.

what about setting it to 1 buffer overall? that would smooth it out slightly

 

[Dark Sonic]

I agree that conditional buffer would be best. I just think that even if that turns out to be impossible, 1 or 0 frame buffer should be standard (though adjustable buffer should be left in for practicing purposes).

This debate can wait till later though, since after all nobody is really suggesting that the adjustable buffer system be removed entirely are they?