Project M Social Thread

[Sneak8288]

Buffering should be for wifi only and should be like a set number that could be agreed upon by the p:m community. There should be a poll on it

 

[Shadic]

Fixed it for ya.

Urgh. The internet is making me look past the atrocious spelling in the first one.

 

[JCaesar]

Ahaha it was misspelled. Oh well, I blame Stingers, he's the one who showed it to me in the first place Possibly the most unintentionally funny thing I've seen (the actual joke, not the misspelling).

Nice avy Shadic. <3 Alakadoof.


I kinda agree about the buffer though. A fair amount of the "EZ mode" stuff in Brawl+ is entirely due to buffer. I've been working myself down to lower buffer. But it's not a big deal to me if it stays in.

 

[ValTroX]

0 buffer FTW ^.^

 

[TL?]

Who cares if the buffer makes some techs like wavedashing easier. The techs don't make the game better because they're hard, it's because they add depth and give options. Buffer gives you better control over your character, and purposely making the controls more difficult is bad design.

 

[sffadsad]

Who cares if the buffer makes some techs like wavedashing easier. The techs don't make the game better because they're hard, it's because they add depth and give options. Buffer gives you better control over your character, and purposely making the controls more difficult is bad design.

A big part of what Melee so cool to watch was because people could do ridiculously difficult things and make them look easy.

The amount of tech skill also gave you a greater sense of accomplishment and really helped give you that drive to get better.

This game is trying its best to be Melee. The lower the buffer the better.

 

[Dingding123]

Buffering is terrible, because it makes the game easier and require less precision. We've had moments where we try do something and the result is something else, because you dur-hur buffered it, even though you didn't actually want to do it, but the game says you did because of buffering, so you obviously meant to do it, hur.

Yeah, it's Brawl's metagame, but it's one of the many things that makes the game so bleh.

This is a post from the houston thread about the topic that was posted soon after I brought it up. It kind of sums up about every reason as to why buffering should be removed.

 

[stingers]

I blame Stingers,

 

[ETWIST51294]

A big part of what Melee so cool to watch was because people could do ridiculously difficult things and make them look easy.

The amount of tech skill also gave you a greater sense of accomplishment and really helped give you that drive to get better.

This game is trying its best to be Melee. The lower the buffer the better.

This. I put A LOT of ****ing time into into my techskill. I don't want some guy who put no time into the game be able to do the same stuff as me without even having to try hard. Plus whats the point of using 0 buffer when you could use a high buffer and make less mistakes? I have a EXTREME amount of techskill BTW, like, anything Shiz can do I can. I know thats hard to believe but I'm MADDDD serious. Do yall know GOTM? He said I was one of the most technical Falcons/Falcos he's ever seen and 100% sure he's played Sca.r, Hax$, Eggm, Cactus, and Jman (and possibly Chops).

 

[Wind Owl]

Are you entering HMW's tech skill contest?

 

[ETWIST51294]

I would love to...if I had a way to record. >____________>

 

[stingers]

come play with me, i have a capture card ^_~

 

[ETWIST51294]

How far is hickory from myrtle beach? LOL

 

[stingers]

eh only 5 hours

 

[ETWIST51294]

LOLOLOL Thats forever. I hate SC.

 

[ValTroX]

I agree with the buffering removal

 

[smegman666]

**** guy .. ived juste played original melee .. ... (needed my dose.. ) wow..

r u gonne make it as fast as the original? (main question here) (...cause its really faster than brawl+.. a really mean.. faster..)

cannot ...
play..
brawl+...
anymore...
...
melee...
to ...
fast..
****

neeed... help.... (and a life..)

 

[ETWIST51294]

yes... its giong... to be.... the same

u...
shud ...
rilly...
stop ..
posting...
liek..
this ... ( ...seriously... it liek... burnz my eyes... )

 

[Shell]

Buffering is terrible, because it makes the game easier and require less precision.

We've had moments where we try do something and the result is something else, because you dur-hur buffered it, even though you didn't actually want to do it, but the game says you did because of buffering, so you obviously meant to do it, hur.

These two statements seem contradictory.


Just a little devil's advocate time here:

In my experience, having a buffer above a couple frames actually makes it harder for me personally to control the game. Quickly releasing buttons or purposefully not inputting things in the middle of an action can actually require training, too. Maybe not quite as much training as performing without the buffer, but the notion that buffer only helps you and only makes things easier is false. It's a double edged sword.

(I personally find the loose feeling of a high buffer abhorrent, and actually play better with 0 buffer, but I respect other preferences)

And even if we go ahead and assume that buffer does only make playing easier, I'm not convinced that making inputs as difficult as possible is unquestionably the ideal solution. Why aren't we playing with sideways wiimotes, then? That would be really impressive. Have you ever tried to even dash dance with a wii mote? It's hard as ****, son. Respect.

My point is that there's a line between making the game enjoyable to everyone and making it really difficult just so that it's cool to pull off correctly. I'm not saying that we should make a wavedashing button or anything silly like that, I'm just making sure we're really asking ourselves whether buffer is actually helping and objectively asking whether that's such a bad thing rather than blindly following melee.

Spoiler

P.S. This isn't me johning because I can't pull off technical things; I'm not hyper technical but I can do perfect wavelands/dashes / platform dashes / pillar / waveshine / L-cancel etc... the basic stuff. I understand the pleasure that comes from, say, the first time you work SH Bair Waveland into a combo with Mario, etc

 

[kupo15]

Who cares if the buffer makes some techs like wavedashing easier. The techs don't make the game better because they're hard, it's because they add depth and give options. Buffer gives you better control over your character, and purposely making the controls more difficult is bad design.

Yes individual actions are not complicated like l canceling, but when you add several of easy actions that must be done with speed and precision that is what makes it hard.

You are completely looking at it the wrong way. Buffering goes way above what you are describing. Example:

0 buffering on 99% of melee is an aspect in separating the great players and the really great players. This goes into everything down to how fast a player can be with there character. If you know the timings really well because you practice, you will have a faster Fox, ganon etc then someone who doesn't put the time in. If you don't put the time in and try to be as fast as the fastest ganon, fox ect then you will miss a LOT because you simply haven't put the effort in learning the timings. Unless you practice, your ganon, fox ect will always be frames slower than the ganon, fox ect that does practice.

Buffering throws all this out the window by minimizing or removing the demand on the player to get good.

 

[Dingding123]

These two statements seem contradictory.

How so? The buffering can really mess with what you wanted to do after you perform an action. For example, there are a lot of cases where you perform an usmash instead of an utilt after you perform an action like dodging or landing, because long buffers don't give a crap about the order or timing of what you pressed during them.

From what I've seen so far, the ssbm buffer system didn't just make it neato to do popular combos correctly; it also makes gameplay much more smooth and precise.

 

[Shell]

Okay Dingding, let me explain why it seemed contradictory.

Buffering is terrible, because it makes the game easier and require less precision.

Buffer makes things easier by requiring less precision


We've had moments where we try do something and the result is something else, because you dur-hur buffered it, even though you didn't actually want to do it, but the game says you did because of buffering, so you obviously meant to do it, hur.

Buffer can make things harder by making you do things you don't intend

 

[Dingding123]

Okay Dingding, let me explain.

Ah, that's what you meant. Whoops.

Well, there's a difference between 'harder' and 'can screw even a pro player over for no good reason'.

 

[Shell]

What I'm arguing is that Rockettrainer perfectly (and completely unintentionally) summarized my feelings on buffer being a double-edged sword -- sometimes you need less precision, but other times you have less precision than you need.

Is it worth being a few frames faster in general if even once or twice per match you do an action you didn't intend to? One mistake in a high level match can mean a stock.

Is buffer really black and white better?


In my mind, sure, someone with extra buffer might be able to pick up the game faster (is that such a crime?) but the player who actually knows his timings without a buffer will always be better. That's the only way you can 100% have control of your character.

So buffer players might pick it up faster but someone who really practices it will win... and I think that's pretty reasonable.

 

[Dingding123]

Yeah, that's what he was getting at.

Comparing large buffer to little/no buffer, respectively:

Why have a double-edged sword when there's a perfectly good sword available? All it needs is a bit of polishing.

 

[Shadic]

Nice avy Shadic. <3 Alakadoof.

Obviously I've not been active recently. I've had that avatar for like, three-four months.

Is buffer really black and white better?

Nope. And that's why I think the "Brawl+ system" is best. Just like tap-jump, I feel like it should be preference.

 

[Shell]

I don't think anyone's arguing that it wouldn't be wonderful to get Melee's conditional buffering in, but there's never a guarantee that we can code that.

I'm merely trying to point out how the current buffer has both pros and cons and largely comes down to player preference... ultimately, though, the player that truly knows the timings will still beat the one that's relying on buffer and I don't see anything wrong with that scenario from a competitive sense.

 

[Dingding123]

Ah, kk. Being a comp sci major myself, I've noticed from personal experience that it sometimes just isn't possible for you to efficiently get a finished product working exactly how you want it to.

I really hope you find a way to put in melee's buffering system, but it shouldn't be a top priority now at least. Again, I love what yall have done so far and best of luck to yall tweaking Brawl+ with this project!

 

[Magus420]

Melee's conditional buffering for huge amounts of time on stuff like getup attacks and doublejumps out of hitstun on randomized knockback animations with no real logic behind which of those KB animations it does and doesn't buffer on is completely ******** and you guys should feel bad for suggesting it make a return xD

 

[Shell]

Heh, well I'm not saying the conditions have to be exactly the same, but the principle of (a more logical) conditional buffer could be nice.

Do you have any additional input on this whole 'role of buffer in competitive play' debate, Magus?

Spoiler

pun unintended, I swear

 

[Archangel]

I missed the last 3 streams T_T......I'm still sad about that lol. Trailer with some things me and others miss out on would make me feel good.

 

[Dingding123]

Heh, well I'm not saying the conditions have to be exactly the same, but the principle of (a more logical) conditional buffer could be nice.

Do you have any additional input on this whole 'role of buffer in competitive play' debate, Magus?

Spoiler

pun unintended, I swear

Yeah, I agree; melee didn't have ideal buffering for EVERYthing, but those can be fixed.

And LOL, took me a little while to get that joke. Nice

I missed the last 3 streams T_T......I'm still sad about that lol. Trailer with some things me and others miss out on would make me feel good.

This. I watched the last stream but it was really choppy occasionaly. A YouTube vid of it all in action, with use of wavedashing and a few nice combos from the likes of falco, diddy and ganon, staged or not, would blow the hype for this project through the ROOF!

*drools*

 

[RayAllen123]

I think a conditional buffer like melee would be best in general, but think of how bad that buffer system would work on wifi, even the SLIGHTEST amount of completely screws everything up ._.

I think Brawl+ has it right, giving the players the choice, offline I play with 0 buffer, but online I usually like 70 buffer

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, I was just poking fun at suggestions along the lines of "make it just like Melee", since most of the stuff that does buffer was done so horribly, lol.

I think some people are not realizing that a lot of actions, movements, and combinations are not made any easier with buffering. It is a universal buffer not a universal easy mode. Will buffering aid you in stuff like wavelanding, platform dashing, turn around u-tilts, following up with an instant JC grab, and precise series of inputs? No. Will it help you time simple **** like pressing a button at the right time after something's lag? Yeah. Will having it set high also make it more difficult to accurately control your actions, you'll end up doing things you don't want to do, you'll want to set your buffer as low as possible because more buffer ≠ better, and people who are more familiar with the timings of their character and play with very low buffer have an advantage over those that rely on a high buffer at the expense of sloppier controls? Yeah.

 

[jalued]

Yeah, I was just poking fun at suggestions along the lines of "make it just like Melee", since most of the stuff that does buffer was done so horribly, lol.

I think some people are not realizing that a lot of actions, movements, and combinations are not made any easier with buffering. It is a universal buffer not a universal easy mode. Will buffering aid you in stuff like wavelanding, platform dashing, turn around u-tilts, following up with an instant JC grab, and precise series of inputs? No. Will it help you time simple **** like pressing a button at the right time after something's lag? Yeah. Will having it set high also make it more difficult to accurately control your actions, you'll end up doing things you don't want to do, you'll want to set your buffer as low as possible because more buffer ≠ better, and people who are more familiar with the timings of their character and play with very low buffer have an advantage over those that rely on a high buffer at the expense of sloppier controls? Yeah.

in summary, high buffer = melee jiggz

easy to use at the start, but getting to a high level play with it is a *****

 

[shanus]

I'm beginning to think that changing falcon's bthrow to match magus' sig is almost required

 

[Shell]

It looks like we're on the same page, Magus.

 

[kupo15]

I don't think anyone's arguing that it wouldn't be wonderful to get Melee's conditional buffering in, but there's never a guarantee that we can code that.

I'm merely trying to point out how the current buffer has both pros and cons and largely comes down to player preference... ultimately, though, the player that truly knows the timings will still beat the one that's relying on buffer and I don't see anything wrong with that scenario from a competitive sense.

I tend to disagree that even with buffering, the better player will know their timings better than the person who doesn't and use higher buffering. I guess its fair that one could say that both players know their timings just as well as each other does in their own situations and buffer amounts.

However, I believe that buffering does make successive button inputs and frame perfect timings easier because there is a room for error. A 3 frame button window gives a total of 4 frames of error whereas 0 frames of buffering is 1 or basically, you are only as fast as how well you know the timing. This is because the buffer people time their inputs before they are able to perform them which means that they don't really know when their move/lag ends.

This is rather obvious when you play a good brawl player in melee because they will complain that their controller is messed up or there is a lot of lag in melee when the fact is that they don't know their timings because they are used to having the buffering in the game time it for them. In this sense, buffering levels the playing field so that the better player that knows the timings isn't exactly compensated for his dedication.

If you can't program conditional buffer, then I would say that there should be a set 1 frame buffer instead of preference.

 

[Shell]

I think that Magus, Rockettrainer, jalued, and myself have done a good job of presenting the notion that buffer is a double edged sword that doesn't really help you with most ATs which require high precision and can actually be detrimental.

If you still choose not to listen to this, Kupo, then I guess we just agree to disagree....or good luck arguing with Magus.

 

[kupo15]

No, I do understand the concept of buffering being a double edged sword, I still think there should be a standard