Project M Social Thread

[Mono.]

Opinions on Ike and Marth? I don't ever feel as if I'm at a disadvantage as Ike but I don't exactly feel even with him either. 45-55?

 

[Juushichi]

Ike vs MK?

 

[Mono.]

MK wins no doubt. At first I was convinced that it was a complete BS matchup but I'm going on 40-60 nowadays as it's not as bad I thought. Just strap in, summon your courage, abuse range, and avoid getting off stage as much as possible and you'll be alright.

And for the love of YHWH please go to a stage that has walls to recover from. Gimps are more unlikely to happen against MK but then again this applies to Ike in general provided you play your cards right.

 

[GHNeko]

Ike vs MK imo is like 65-35.

Ike has ****ty options when being pressured. Which is what MK excels at.
Ike has a lol recovery and is gimped easy. Which is MK is good at.

Only think MK has to worry about is getting hit. Which isnt something he has to worry about once he gains momentum.

The best thing for Ike to do imo is to camp hard. :V

 

[Mono.]

lol I was trying to avoid saying camp but yeah that's more or less what you have to do along with the typical "read to get a kill" strategy. I think Ike has some grab BS on MK too but I'd have to mess around to see if it's true or not. If so, it's never hard for Ike to surprise any character with a quickdraw to grab at close range.

 

[Gamegenie222]

What about the Sonic vs Bowser MU and Sonic vs Falcon Mu also good luck at that tourney smash twins.

 

[CORY]

tbh, the only matchups i care about much at this point are [lower than high tier character] vs. [top tier character] ;x

until a meta evolves and you find out that there are some nasty counter matchups, i think it's more important that a lot of the lower portion of the cast can actually compete with the tops.

also, this is a highly simplified viewpoint ;x

 

[Cero]

yes, why wouldn't there be?

Because on this thread, no one's mentioned it for weeks. Well, thanks for answering my question.

 

[Shadic]

That's because we can't magically work on everything at once.

Especially when the only person with the expertise required is Magus. You could ask about any random code we plan to do, and the response will be the same: "Eventually, but not at the moment."

 

[humble]

How do Lucario, Wario, and Charizard stack up against Fox, Falco, Sheik, and the other melee top tiers?

 

[Shadic]

They all suck. The goal of the project has failed miserably.

 

[curry9186]

I love that Shadic has his own Trollemon.

 

[Stunts]

Able to see a lagit team match of Fox/Fox vs Sonic/Luigi is reason enough to watch the stream lol

 

[9Kplus1]

Neko vs Bowser:M seems to be a pretty complex MU from what I can see. Neko can effortlessly abuse his huge grab range (which easily outranges all of Bowser's moves) and strength to keep the pressure on Bowser. Neko also has the advantage of being able to press buttons on Bowser's shield and break it; ALL of his moves have at least a ten-frame advantage on shields, and half of his moveset comes out on less than seven frames, not to mention that Neko has a pretty good shine. Bowser on the other hand, has SA frames on a fair amount of his attacks, which will undoubtedly give Neko trouble when Bowser is at lower %'s (could someone confirm when GHNEKO Punch beats Bowser's SA? It might change this MU dramatically), considering how light Neko is compared to the rest of the cast. In all honesty, I have to say that Neko vs Bowser:M is in Neko's favor, but it's definitely going to change as the metagame develops -- 65:35 Neko.

Regarding Lucario vs spacies; I'm pretty sure that both Falco and Fox have the advantage over Lucario because of their stellar pressure games. Lucario has OHC, but none of his moves come out on 1F.

Now, how does anyone feel about Zamus vs Marth? It seems like a pretty fun MU for both characters, but Marth's sword definitely has the advantage over Zamus' limbs.

 

[LegendofLink]

Matchups between low-high tier characters isn't quite so important as matchups between low-high mobility characters IMO. A low teir but highly mobile character can easily be buffed to match the space animals without changing their overall playstyle, but a slower character needs very special tools to be able to deal with the pressure put on by the likes of Fox/Falco or they will simply be destroyed. Charizard is a good example of the right thing to do with his new specials being great for mobility and followups without changing him from a slow-ish powerhouse. Bowser, on the other hand probably still loses hard to to pressure even with his armor, as he needs to predict correctly to really capitalize on it and proper pressure from a space animal is nigh unpunishable with the speed of Bowser's attacks and he doesn't have range like Charizard/DK to space them easily either outside the fire breath. I may be wrong with my Bowser analysis as I haven't seen much of him since his blog post preview, but my point about matchups still stands. Having bad matchups is fine, but having those matchups be against any character with a good pressure game (which is any of the fast ones, really) is a sure ticket to bottom tier all over again.

 

[JCaesar]

Bowser has more range than Charizard and DK (mostly due to his sheer size) and although he's easy to combo, he deals with shield pressure extremely well. Up-B OOS ***** ... everything.

 

[ph00tbag]

Bowser also has some of the highest damage output per move in the game, and has a command grab. Furthermore, if you don't have full shield, and try to block fsmash, dsmash or bowser bomb, you will get shield broken.

Bowser is a defensive grappler. He's supposed to be slow and easy to combo. If he weren't, and could do the things he's capable of, then it would be kind of silly.

Mind you, I don't think he's the best in the game, and he could probably be better and still not outclass half the cast, but he's so much fun to use, and does such epic stuff that it's not a huge deal.

 

[LegendofLink]

Ah, forgot about the size increase, that's a big thing in his favor. I still get the feeling that he would suffer against proper spacing though, as you have to be right on top of him for OOS Up-B to be a safe option. Probably works wonders on Fox/Falco though.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

That's because we can't magically work on everything at once.

Especially when the only person with the expertise required is Magus. You could ask about any random code we plan to do, and the response will be the same: "Eventually, but not at the moment."

So basically Magus is to P:M what Goku was to DBZ in Frieza Saga?

 

[JCaesar]

His up-B is a lot bigger than it was in Melee, trust me. There are plenty of Bowser matches on youtube where you can see how he works. I play vs cmart's Bowser a lot, and I've learned to never touch his shield or even techchase him unless I know my followup will be perfect. Bowser punishes even the slightest mistakes very hard.

 

[FireBall Stars]

It's difficult to measure match-ups at this moment of the game, specially with a character with so much changes as bowser.

We can't exactly know how Bowser can use his new features against a number of MUs while the real metagame didn't even started.

In the future some of them we thought to be impossible could be proven to be actually even or an advantage to bowser.

But for now, I wouldn't give too much advantage for both sonic or bowser. I personally think that it's a match-up currently very 'player dependant'.

Sonic vs Falcon is a very, very mixup heavy match-up which revolves mainly in grabbing the opponent because most of the time you don't have enough frame advantage to do anything.
Hit and run, and when Hitting, try to gimp or hit hard, you can't do much afterwards.

 

[GHNeko]

Neko vs Bowser:M seems to be a pretty complex MU from what I can see. Neko can effortlessly abuse his huge grab range (which easily outranges all of Bowser's moves) and strength to keep the pressure on Bowser. Neko also has the advantage of being able to press buttons on Bowser's shield and break it; ALL of his moves have at least a ten-frame advantage on shields, and half of his moveset comes out on less than seven frames, not to mention that Neko has a pretty good shine. Bowser on the other hand, has SA frames on a fair amount of his attacks, which will undoubtedly give Neko trouble when Bowser is at lower %'s (could someone confirm when GHNEKO Punch beats Bowser's SA? It might change this MU dramatically), considering how light Neko is compared to the rest of the cast. In all honesty, I have to say that Neko vs Bowser:M is in Neko's favor, but it's definitely going to change as the metagame develops -- 65:35 Neko.

This is my new sig.

Now, how does anyone feel about Zamus vs Marth? It seems like a pretty fun MU for both characters, but Marth's sword definitely has the advantage over Zamus' limbs.

But Zamus whip > marf sword.

imo the MU is 55:45. Not exactly sure why. but this is what i feel

 

[Jonny Westside]

So which character so far shows the most promise? Meaning, who is the most devastating?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

so i have a question/comment. from what i have seen it looks like sheiks d-throw has been changed to her pal version. Now if this is not true ignore the rest of my post. Now assuming I saw this correctly I want it to be known I agree with changing that move, that being said it doesnt seem fair that sheik gets a nerf while fox who as far as I know did not receive any of the pal nerfs. It just doesnt seem right to nerf sheik while not giving fox any of his pal nerfs such as a shorter recovery or his up-smash and i believe up-air being a little weaker.

Now before people start giving me the "this is to attract melee players so we cant change one of the most popular characters" speech i am well aware of this argument. I also understand the need to change sheiks d-throw just b/c the way it worked in melee fundamentally made that MU almost impossible for some characters. I am just saying it seems a little messed up to nerf her while not nerfing fox (who i also want to add is still considered the best in pal)

Now of course maybe sheik got some buff that makes up for this nerf which i dont know about and if this is the case then i suppose u can also ignore this post

 

[hotdogturtle]

Now before people start giving me the "this is to attract melee players so we cant change one of the most popular characters" speech i am well aware of this argument. I also understand the need to change sheiks d-throw just b/c the way it worked in melee fundamentally made that MU almost impossible for some characters.

Well it's a delicate situation, but I believe that you summed up the philosophy in these sentences. Sheik's chain grab was a single factor that destroyed the viability of some characters. Without it, they still might lose, but not as badly, and at least they'd have a better chance to fight back. Fox is an all-around great character, but he doesn't have a single thing that ruins matchups like Sheik's dthrow (not even Shine).

Any PMBR members can correct me, but this is what I've gathered from the other times that this question has been asked.

(Also for the record, they may not be directly comparable, but Sheik did gain a crawl and a wall-cling from her Melee version.)

 

[drsusredfish]

DDD's wadle dees and wadle doos. would it be possible to give them a hit box if they are hit through the air. This way DDD can choose to attack the wadle dee instead of throwing it and still get a hit box on it. The oppoents should be able to do this to the wadle dees too. so they can be hit back at DDD. It wouldn't be a strong hit box about the same strength as when DDD throws them.

 

[9Kplus1]

EDIT: Thanks for the correction, EY.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Well it's a delicate situation, but I believe that you summed up the philosophy in these sentences. Sheik's chain grab was a single factor that destroyed the viability of some characters. Without it, they still might lose, but not as badly, and at least they'd have a better chance to fight back. Fox is an all-around great character, but he doesn't have a single thing that ruins matchups like Sheik's dthrow (not even Shine).

Any PMBR members can correct me, but this is what I've gathered from the other times that this question has been asked.

(Also for the record, they may not be directly comparable, but Sheik did gain a crawl and a wall-cling from her Melee version.)

I wonder if maybe keeping sheiks tether would be enough to make up for her d-throw nerf. I mean after all one if not her biggest weakness in melee was/is her bad recovery. So i almost feel like maybe keeping in the tether might make up for the huge nerf given to the d-throw. (on the other hand i dont plan on using sheik so a better recovery would just make me sad, but I feel the pmbr needs to be fair to her).

edit: 9K, even if thats true it is still a rather large nerf to the d-throw

But I would still like a pmbr member to address my thoughts and concerns. (not to say I didnt appreciate your response Hotdog.)

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Sheik's Dthrow get a KBG buff and angle adjustment? If that's the case, she can still CG, just not until lol-high percents. IMO, crawling more than makes up for that nerf

It's PAL Dthrow. That KBG increase was "not very effective"....

 

[Rikana]

It's NTSC dthrow with a bigger growth. Isn't it..?

 

[Vigilante]

How do Lucario, Wario, and Charizard stack up against Fox, Falco, Sheik, and the other melee top tiers?

Lucario does fairly weel against those. He gets pressured a lot, but he also pressures a lot. He also has decent moves on Jiggs, which has more different physics. I'd say that actually, characters like Bowser are better choices when fighting Lucario to be honest. Lucario has strong and somewhat bad matchups, so it balances out

Charizard is also very well balanced. He can do well against most of the cast. His matchups tend to be a bit less extreme.

Wario was OP at one point, so you can assume that even nerfed a bit, he still is pretty darn good.

 

[crush]

Sheiks wall cling is really good on some stages I think.

 

[GHNeko]

**** shiek

she can diaf

 

[ClinkStryphart]

I wonder if maybe keeping sheiks tether would be enough to make up for her d-throw nerf. I mean after all one if not her biggest weakness in melee was/is her bad recovery. So i almost feel like maybe keeping in the tether might make up for the huge nerf given to the d-throw. (on the other hand i dont plan on using sheik so a better recovery would just make me sad, but I feel the pmbr needs to be fair to her).

its not really a nerf though its more of a balanced decision. imo. I think sheik looks fine as is. Still can hold her own in a fight. at least thats what I get from watching the streams. btw is anyone streaming today or tonight rather?

 

[GHNeko]

people need to stop thinking a character needs compensation for being nerfed lol

 

[Rikana]

I believe sniperfox is streaming tonight.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Sheik is fine. A walking crouch cancel is OP.

 

[MonkUnit]

You can't crouch cancel unless you're in the crouch action - not crawling, IIRC.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

people need to stop thinking a character needs compensation for being nerfed lol

agreed Neko.

 

[SNPR]

Streaming Project: M closed alpha all day guys!
http://www.twitch.tv/sniperfox1