Project M Social Thread

[DeathscytheHello]

I have no trouble KO'ing with Lucas.

Snake on the other hand... >_>

This leads me into my list of things that I really like, and a few simple things I'd like changed about it.

Basically, I'm playing Snake, and I really, really like it. I play Venom in Guilty Gear and am a huge fan of screen control, and I feel like you guys did great with emphasizing that aspect of Snake. I honestly enjoy the fact that it's a bit more difficult to KO opponents with his close-quarters combat--it reinforces his tactical explosives approach (not to mention that he was a little too strong. So, great job! I'm a fan.

One thing that I would like to ask is a little more hit-stun on his 3-hit neutral A combo. That third kick is great for screen control (IE kicking them into places you want them to go), however, I've noticed that sometimes (most likely low percentages, can't remember where exactly these problems would come up, perhaps they are character specific) not all of the hits will connect. Rather, they can all hit, but it's all too possible to shield and guard after the first connects with them. I'd just like the 3-hit to stun just a little more to confirm that the kick will connect; often times, that kick can knock them into a bomb, thus leading to more shenanigans afterwords.

The second thing (which I'm totally fine with you guys not implementing this) is having Snake's down-smash be less visible on Fountain of Dreams. It's EXTREMELY noticeable and hard to trick people into walking onto it. You can still FORCE them into it, yes, but the catching people unawares with explosives is always a nice benefit to have with Snake.

Anyway, again, great job on the mod, these are just some issues I'd noticed.

 

[Shadic]

Hoo boy.

Dear Shadic,

You sir, need to understand that removing specific things from the top does not necessarially constitute a real nerf. Look at what happened with Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix. Balrog's super in ST did 80% health. Now, why was this removed? Because it was dumb. Not because it made him worse (although it did to a degree).

You may want to look at Sheik's DThrow. The move doesn't chain-grab to the same degree as it did in Melee because it was deemed to be "dumb."

What you have to ask yourself is "Am I willing to give characters a spike over a hard meteor, who didn't have one in Melee/Brawl?" Or are you doing this because "It was in Melee"? Because what I'm seeing is someone not wanting to touch something they like, about characters they like. I mean, look at your demo thus far. Do you really think that Zelda's changes have made her as much a powerhouse as Fox/Falco/Snake? Do you think that Game and Watch can dominate as heavily as the top? What I'm seeing is a vague attempt to make a new Melee, that doesn't really add to the rest of the cast, and instead you are just sticking to what you know. If they have their Melee true spikes, what changes your opinion on Zelda/Game and Watch are equal to Falco's pressure/combo/gimpkill potential? Because I can tell you right now, G&W is bad. He's still got the problems he had in Melee. In Brawl it was mostly acceptable, because his moves were average, but did decent damage. Now, he can't even kill, because his Nair and smashes, along with his tilts are simply too slow.

First of all, I cannot comment on G&W, as he is a character that I had absolutely nothing to do with. JCaesar is the man you'll want to rant at for that, but I think that he'll disagree with you. G&W has received several improvements however, such as working L-cancels, an improved recovery, and a proper shield. If you are correct and G&W does end up proving to be poor, he will be altered, as this is a demo.

Zelda has had almost universal praise, and was designed almost entirely by Magus. Magus is one of the most knowledgeable people on the finer details of Smash around. Period. No offense meant, but I hold his opinion in higher regard than yours.

Basically what I'm saying is that if you're balancing to the top, you're doing a piss poor job. If you're trying to say that keeping in True Spikes (something that is incredibly unnecessary in the first place in) because Melee had it, well, you'd seem more legit, but simply stupid, and if you say that the characters that have the true spikes NEED them, you don't understand how to balance a game.

First of all, I find it spectacular that you're about to thoroughly analyze the balance and metagame of all of the altered character in Project M in such a short amount of time. We are keeping top tiers how they were in Melee. That has been one of the design choices from over a year ago and is not going to change. I also find it entertaining that you've only stuck to complaining about two characters in the demo out of the 14, and have actually used Snake as an example of one of our "powerful" characters. Wouldn't that imply that PMBR as a whole is capable of balancing towards the top?

Not to mention that acting like true spikes are completely devious to character balance is asinine. Sure we can nerf Falco's Dair, but what is that going to do to Fox? Fox is the best character in Melee. I never said that characters with spikes absolutely need them, but to remove or tweak the moves heavily to satiate a small percentage of our fanbase that is rapidly anti-spike isn't something we particularly feel like doing. Not to mention the characters already work great with them. Why would we mess with characters that have proven themselves to be near-perfect (In terms of design) after almost a decade of tournament play? They work great, and their challenges in Project M should be how to deal with the rest of the caster being on their level, not nerfs.

Also, Falco's D-Air Spike was removed from the PAL version of Melee, and people saying Fox doesn't have a spike might as well have the fluid drained out of their head, because the Melee shine spike is way deadlier than any of the other character's true spikes.

First of all - You're wrong about Falco's Dair. Half of the animation still spikes. Secondly, I never commented on the lack of utility on Fox's Shine, but it is not a spike. In Project M it sends 1 degree off horizontal, which does not make it a literal spike.

I know you've clearly stated you're balancing to the top, but if something's breaking the game, wouldn't it make more sense to just fix that, rather than break everything else to fit in with it?

But not everybody's definition of what is "broken" is the same. I don't think that true spikes are detrimental to gameplay at all. Falco's may irritate me with the fact that it's easy to use, but that just means that it's a really good move. Plenty of characters have amazing moves! Falco's Dair is one of them. Why would we want to remove what makes a character stand out?

 

[Ulevo]

i tried P:M today and I am SO IMPRESSED.

I've been playing competitive melee for years and I honestly cannot tell the difference haha. Aside from a few slight things anyways

either way it was so cool playing lucas so fluidly. I love him haha. Either way P:M will probably replace melee for me <3

i kinda wish lucas had better throws which he could actually do follow ups too....and some kill moves T_T

Just wanted to say that Lucas ***** fast fallers pretty hard if he happens to grab them. Up throw to whatever tickles his fancy.

Love Project M Lucas. He might even be one of my mains in the future. That is if I can ever stop playing Snake as saying

"Colonel, mission accomplished."

and

"Not even close."

 

[leelue]

Tasty
10Tasties

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ganondorf is my new main.

He is a beast.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

Not to mention the characters already work great with them. Why would we mess with characters that have proven themselves to be near-perfect (In terms of design) after almost a decade of tournament play?

I'd mess with characters that have proven themselves for a decade of tournament play for two main reasons. Either...

A) for balance
B) to make them interesting

Part A, I know what you're thinking, you want to balance the rest of the cast to them. Which is fine--I think it's going to be difficult (what with the target being very fast and powerful characters), but it'd be good if you pull it off.

Part B, though, is the one that I like. Again, I'll use Snake as an example. You guys nerfed the hell out of a few of his moves (the main one that comes to mind is that the forward tilts don't murder like they used to). But I liked those changes you guys implemented. It forced me to focus more on the explosive tools Snake has for the KOing. Can f-tilt still kill? Of course; you guys didn't destroy it, you just toned it down.

I feel like that's what should happen to the top guys; don't RUIN their gameplay, just tone down a bit of their extraneous tools to force players to focus on the key aspects of the character that they're really about. For instance (just speculation), suppose you reduced Marth's grab length. This lack of range on the grab would force players to consider sword attacks at that range instead; maybe go for the fair more often, maybe a tilt, I don't know, I'm no Marth player. I just know that a little tweak here and there can make a character more interesting, even if they do become "worse" because of it.


EDIT: I know reducing Marth's grab range would do more than just what I said, and that it would be harder for him in X situations--this is why balancing games is hard. I'm not necessarily suggesting you do that (although I'd personally enjoy it, what with me not playing Marth), it's just a little example.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You realize that one of the goals of the project is to make transition to and from Melee seamless, right?

Also: If they start changing around top tiers, they will lose A LOT of their target audience.

 

[Ghostbone]

If you want some more variety from melee.

Try the new re-balanced melee characters and brawl-exclusive ones...

Plus it's awesome trying out the melee top tiers against some of the new characters.

 

[Ulevo]

G&W is bad. He's still got the problems he had in Melee. In Brawl it was mostly acceptable, because his moves were average, but did decent damage. Now, he can't even kill, because his Nair and smashes, along with his tilts are simply too slow.

Alright, I don't know how much Melee experience you have or how good or bad you might be. I don't want to discredit you as a player. However, you need to give the team and the play testers play testing this game and giving them feedback a little more credit if you yourself aren't that informed.

Your quote above seems to hint at the lack of experience and personal exploration with the character. G&W is not bad. At least not overall, I can't comment on his tier placement. But he doesn't have the same problems he used to have.

He has a larger shield, and he has an invincible up B, which helps him infinitely more so against pressure than it helped him in Melee. He also has short hop double bacon, and full hop tripple bacon to control space. This allows him to defend, set up for plays, and generally slow down any momentum your opponent has. Again, this alleviates some of the problems he previously had.

He also has an amazing edge guard game, and tech chase game. Between those two parts of gameplay, he'll be getting a lot of kills in.

This isn't Brawl where you spam unsafe moves in hopes of landing a blow to KO. You need to combo in to kill moves. Down tilt, down throw, up throw, and grounded sweet spot down air all do this for you. And most of them lead in to a parachute, which kills really, really well.

 

[Starscream]

Sorry to interrupt, but does anyone know where to find the Melee Ganondorf vertex and textures/recolors? Apparently they aren't on the Brawl Vault.

 

[JCaesar]

About G&W:
If you're having trouble killing, try dtilt. It's fast and safe, kills floaties, and combos fastfallers into nair. His smashes also kill really well.

It may because I mostly play against a Falco, but I do agree that G&W may be a bit lacking against the top. If tournament results prove that, he can be adjusted before the final release.

@Ulevo: G&W's up-B does not have invincibility. The advantage it has is that it doesn't go into special fall, so it's safe to use to escape pressure.

Also, I don't know how anyone could think G&W's tilts are slow unless they're just spamming ftilt haha.

Alright, brass tacks here, as a common response to most of my questions tends to be "They'll lose x-combo if we change this," or something along those lines. Rarely is it a "This balances the gameplay because of x," which would be the preferred type of response. If changing something I think is going to break the game means it gets rid of someone's combo, I think that's a sacrifice worth making. I know, I could be entirely wrong on why it's imbalanced, but that's not what you're addressing with your responses. So I ask -

Having a balanced game < Having a Melee-like game, right? We'll forgo making a more balanced game in favor of making a more Melee-esque (i.e., top-tiers operate exactly [or as close as possible] the same way as they did, even if it's broken in some way) game?

Note: I'm not saying this is the wrong thing to do - It's your project, and I'm still having fun with it regardless. I just want to know which is actually more important to you guys, as that will fill in any gaps I think are present in your balancing methods... I know you've clearly stated you're balancing to the top, but if something's breaking the game, wouldn't it make more sense to just fix that, rather than break everything else to fit in with it?

We don't think that "having a balanced game" and "having a Melee-like game" are mutually exclusive. The Melee top tiers are very well-balanced against each other. We have empirical evidence of this (a decade of tournament results). Thus, since our goal is to bring everyone up to their level, they do not need any nerfs.

Sheik's dthrow was a special case, because it made half the cast unviable on its own. So we made it not chaingrab quite as long. It's still really really good and doesn't change the feel of her character at all.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

You realize that one of the goals of the project is to make transition to and from Melee seamless, right?

And I like it. I feel like they're doing a great job--the game FEELS like Melee, so I'd say the transition is almost seamless (still a few bugs, naturally, but I'm not complaining). However, to make the transition from Melee to this seamlessly doesn't need to mean "keep the best characters exactly how they are".

Also: If they start changing around top tiers, they will lose A LOT of their target audience.

Well, if their goal is to reach the widest audience possible, I can see why this matters. But, personally, if I were to be making this, I'd be trying to make the best game possible, not reach the most people with it. I'm just trying to give suggestions to make the game much more fun and interesting; after all, the Melee top-tiered guys have been around for a decade; why not give people something new to discover with them?

 

[Ulevo]

Ah, no invincibility? My mistake then. It's still an amazing out of shield option; it gets the job done.

 

[JCaesar]

And I like it. I feel like they're doing a great job--the game FEELS like Melee, so I'd say the transition is almost seamless (still a few bugs, naturally, but I'm not complaining). However, to make the transition from Melee to this seamlessly doesn't need to mean "keep the best characters exactly how they are".



Well, if their goal is to reach the widest audience possible, I can see why this matters. But, personally, if I were to be making this, I'd be trying to make the best game possible, not reach the most people with it. I'm just trying to give suggestions to make the game much more fun and interesting; after all, the Melee top-tiered guys have been around for a decade; why not give people something new to discover with them?

I know because the demo is half Melee top tiers that it can sometimes feel like we're just making a clone of Melee. Rest assured though, that when the rest of the characters come out, virtually all of them will feel very fresh and new and interesting. Snake is not the only character we got creative with.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ganondorf already feels really new to me, and he's hardly been changed at all.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

I know because the demo is half Melee top tiers that it can sometimes feel like we're just making a clone of Melee. Rest assured though, that when the rest of the characters come out, virtually all of them will feel very fresh and new and interesting. Snake is not the only character we got creative with.

Sorry, I did not intend to make this seem like I think it's a clone of Melee; I definitely don't think it is. If you're familiar with other fighting game series, I'd see this more as going from Super Street Fighter II to Super Street Fighter II Turbo, or from Guilty Gear XX to Guilty Gear #Reload.

But, because this is clearly not a Melee clone, I don't see why you shouldn't fiddle* with the top-tiers.


*note: fiddle does not mean "nerf", it means just add a few extra changes, for example, even adding Falcon's "CHYES!" to a taunted knee is a "fiddle"; mechanically, nothing has changed, but it gives something new for players to do.




EDIT: And Grim, Ganon has his sweet foward B grab-attack thing, which is exactly the sort of stuff I'm talking about; change up a few things here and there and you open a bunch of new possibilities for players to discover/enjoy. Change them for Fox and Falco and Marth and whomever else, too; why should they be excluded from new toys just because they were really good in the last version?

 

[Ulevo]

Here is the problem DeathscytheHello. If they start to fiddle with the Melee top tiers, they're essentially putting themselves in a position where they're literally in the dark about balance. There is no way to know exactly how drastic their changes will be on effecting said character until we, the public, get our hands on the final release. Not only does this potentially compromise the Melee top tier balance circle, but it also means that they no longer have a standard to abide by when considering how to balance other characters, like Bowser or Wario.

The reason why I can put so much faith in what they're doing personally is because they're following a logical method that doesn't entail them shooting their efforts in to the dark and hoping to come out with good results. They're doing the right thing by retaining the Melee vets as they are, because anything otherwise would be just a gamble, unless Project M was to come out with patches at a later date. And of course, they've explicitly stated they want to avoid doing this at all costs.

I think you have these sentiments because as JCaesar noted, it is a demo with mostly Melee vets. There's an entire pool of new and fresh characters waiting to be played on the final release, so I'd suggest holding off judgments until then.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

Here is the problem DeathscytheHello. If they start to fiddle with the Melee top tiers, they're essentially putting themselves in a position where they're literally in the dark about balance.

Well, see, it's not really a problem. As I said in that post, "fiddle" does not have to mean "nerf" (or "buff", either). Again, Falcon's knee-taunt thing (I don't know what to call it, when you taunt when you sweet-spot the knee). IT DOES NOTHING MECHANICALLY. It hits just as hard, with or without the taunt. All it does is make Falcon yell, "CHYES!" Which is awesome. It's a thing they fiddled with which makes Falcon much more fun for me to play. That's all I'm asking for right now with Fox, Marth, Falco, et cetera. Something cool and neat -- it doesn't have to effect their combat styles -- for me to toy around with whenever I happen to pick them.

Again, "fiddle" doesn't have to mean "changing moves". It certainly can mean that, but it doesn't have to. It can just be simple as taunting during your moves to make certain noises, or it can be as technical as turning Din's Fire from fireball to delayed blast fireball.

 

[Vigilante]

Falco's spike is fine as it is, so is Gannondorf, Marth's etc... In fact, I'm more against meteor smashes. for other characters. Falco especially needs it since he takes many risks while spiking. Marth only hits on a sweetspot. To me, all move that send downward should have been spikes, no meteors.

To those who think that does not constitute a nerf... If Falco spikes off stage, he puts himself in great danger with his bad recovery. If he can't land a spike and the person can return he's pretty much as good as dead. Gannondorf's spike is what differentiates him from Captain Falcon in that move.

Anyways, poeple shouldn't complain since meteors were buffed and now take longer to counter.

Not this is made to be like the NTCS-U version. I'm pretty sure it will remain as such.

 

[Revven]

Well, see, it's not really a problem. As I said in that post, "fiddle" does not have to mean "nerf" (or "buff", either). Again, Falcon's knee-taunt thing (I don't know what to call it, when you taunt when you sweet-spot the knee). IT DOES NOTHING MECHANICALLY. It hits just as hard, with or without the taunt. All it does is make Falcon yell, "CHYES!" Which is awesome. It's a thing they fiddled with which makes Falcon much more fun for me to play. That's all I'm asking for right now with Fox, Marth, Falco, et cetera. Something cool and neat -- it doesn't have to effect their combat styles -- for me to toy around with whenever I happen to pick them.

Again, "fiddle" doesn't have to mean "changing moves". It certainly can mean that, but it doesn't have to. It can just be simple as taunting during your moves to make certain noises, or it can be as technical as turning Din's Fire from fireball to delayed blast fireball.

The Melee tops do have new tools to play with ... just not ones that were made into their move set like CF or Ganondorf. They get to play with B-reversals, Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash, Taunt Canceling, Footstools, and etc. These new gameplay mechanics either adds options to them or doesn't affect them too much at all (footstools) but it does add flavor when you can taunt cancel "Hands off my prey!"

The thing about CF is, he has a lot of fun quotes and unused SFX whereas someone like Falco does not have really any unused SFX we can incorporate into moves to make them add a bit of flavor. As you'll notice a good example of an unused SFX for CF is the one on his Up Taunt, that was never used once in the game yet it was in sound test so we decided to put it on his Up Taunt. (The other YESS!!)

Plus, making those kinds of changes requires deep thought and needs to be well planned out. Otherwise it gets stale if everyone else can do something similar to CF's knee Utaunt. Aesthetic changes are always fun, I agree, but they aren't original if they get spammed on every character. It's usually not in our best interest to reuse aesthetic ideas on other characters because of the staleness that could happen. It also makes it look even more like a mod than something professional, it's cool to have something like we did on CF but on everyone else like Falco or Fox an aesthetic change doesn't really suit them. An aesthetic change should only really be used if it will actually add something cool to a character, otherwise there's no point in investing any time on it that could be used to develop a new character instead.

And usually, aesthetic changes are very low priority for us.

 

[Pimpfish]

I was thinking, and feel free to ignore me, would it upset the balance too much if zelda had two forward b's? smash >b or nonsmash >b, like samus' missiles? One of them with the delay and one without. just a thought i mean, who am i? The P:MBR has probably already thought of this or did something with it in the past so just ignore me if thats the case. Thanks

 

[shanus]

thats not possible to do

 

[C_Ferris32]

Sorry for the silly question, but I remember that yesterday one of the developers said something about a patch that was coming out soon, is that out yet (and I just can't find the DL) or are you guys still working on it?

I was just curious.

 

[MK26]

they're desperately trying to get it out before pound
so itll be out, just give it time

 

[ss118]

thats not possible to do

you can't do something like a smash side b and a tilt side b, similar to how Samus' missles work?

 

[shanus]

you can't do something like a smash side b and a tilt side b, similar to how Samus' missles work?

Not with how her dins is

 

[OmegaMuffin]

About Peach's turnips
Can't you have them be like link's bombs minus the explosion? To get them to bounce off of shields I mean. Or is there something deeper than that?

Also C-stick buffer roll hasn't been working for me. Is that something that's in the patch?

 

[MK26]

iirc the main reason why peach isnt in the demo is because they havent figured that out yet

 

[Revven]

You need to use the control stick in conjunction with the C-stick to buffer the rolls. As for Peach's turnips, yes it's WAY deeper than that and it's more than just her turnips that kept her out of the demo.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

You need to use the control stick in conjunction with the C-stick to buffer the rolls.

Oh, alright. Thanks for the reply.

As for Peach's turnips, yes it's WAY deeper than that and it's more than just her turnips that kept her out of the demo.

Probably should have figured that one lol. Reason I'm interested is because watching Peach matches was always fun, and I remember someone saying the turnips were a big reason Peach is nowhere near completion. I was just trying to give ideas. I should realize you guys probably exhausted all of your obvious options if you're stumped on something.

Also, question that may seem unnecessary, but was it difficult remaking Fox/Falco's Forward smash animation?

 

[Stevo]

something I've noticed

Mario's Tornado recovery does not work if I am hit out of my up-b
I kept getting frustrated cause my tornado wouldnt work, then I realised the pattern

inb4learntosweetspotbetter

 

[DJ Xero]

I love the hypocrisy in this thread.

Changing the KB of the spikes in order to compensate for the fact that they can't meteor would also screw up set ups and combos that use them, as well.

Ok, so if they were to lose their spikes, it would be so detrimental to their gameplay that balance would cease to exist. While I don't think that 0 to death combos off of a forward air should be guaranteed 100% unsurvivable, I guess if it changes them that drastically, we can't change them, because Melee is obviously the prime example of balance in a fighting game

If someone is getting hit by any of those spikes, they were likely going to die anyway.

Removing those spikes wouldn't be a balance changer at high level, and it wouldn't be worth the backlash from disgruntled players wondering why their spikes are gone.

Oh wait.

Also, as for your reply about Game and watch, The working L-Cancels aren't a buff. They are a necessity. If a character can't L-Cancel he can not compete. What's more, he got buffs in awkward places (like his instant Fair) and a total nerf (on his parachute not staying out) Sure some of the stuff was nice, like the ground cancelled bacon, or his D-Tilt, but in the case of the D-Tilt, it was already good. When you buff a character, you are supposed to buff them in places they're lacking. Then, when that's enough, you buff the most used tools, Maybe even scrap a couple of them. Also, Is the D-Air spike from melee gone? Because I couldn't hit with it for the life of me, even when I hit it just like in melee.

Also, as far as

But not everybody's definition of what is "broken" is the same. I don't think that true spikes are detrimental to gameplay at all. Falco's may irritate me with the fact that it's easy to use, but that just means that it's a really good move. Plenty of characters have amazing moves! Falco's Dair is one of them. Why would we want to remove what makes a character stand out?

The problem with true spikes are that in N64, all you had were spikes. They were incredibly strong, and to remedy this, they added in meteors. Now, for whatever reason, they changed this in the PAL versions of Melee, by changing Marth's and Falco's D-Air, even if for Falco, only half of it spiked.

Also, you said Snake was balanced in, but you forget that he was already one of the top characters in Brawl. And all of his changes just make his playstyle work in Melee.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

They aren't nerfing the top characters to be in line with the rest. They tried that with Brawl+, and we all know how well that turned out.

Spoiler

It didn't.
It's also dead now.

They're buffing everyone else to keep up with the top tiers.

About G&W, there are only a few updated vids, but they do show that G&W's parachute does stay out as long as it did in Melee.
Also, G&W has a properly scaled shield so it can be used, something he lacked in Melee.

Buffing isn't always about buffing them in the places they were lacking.
Sometimes the areas where they are lacking are their weaknesses and buffing them would remove what would keep the character unique and balanced.
At those times, it would be wiser to buff other aspects, specifically those that help them work around that. You don't see Link with a spin attack that goes as high Marth's dolphin slash after all.

Take it from someone who mained Snake when he played Brawl.
The changes made to him were essential as his old style is borderline ineffective in PM.
Had he not changed, he would be like Falcon in VBrawl.

 

[Dark Sonic]

While I don't think that 0 to death combos off of a forward air should be guaranteed 100% unsurvivable, I guess if it changes them that drastically, we can't change them, because Melee is obviously the prime example of balance in a fighting game

lost all credibility (not that you had any to start)

Learn to DI <_<

Is the D-Air spike from melee gone? Because I couldn't hit with it for the life of me, even when I hit it just like in melee.

It's still there.

The problem with true spikes are that in N64, all you had were spikes. They were incredibly strong, and to remedy this, they added in meteors. Now, for whatever reason, they changed this in the PAL versions of Melee, by changing Marth's and Falco's D-Air, even if for Falco, only half of it spiked.

Falco's dair cannot be changed because that is how his pillar combos WORK. If you could meteor cancel his dair he would literally lose a major part of what makes melee Falco...melee Falco.

Marth's dair is just a good kill move. He doesn't need it, but it doesn't break the game. Melee top tiers have somehow manage to deal with such a powerful move for over a decade.

Ganon's down B spike doesn't really need to be mentioned. It's just not that great of a move.

Falcon's nipple spike is a specific hitbox that's actually pretty awkward to hit with.

All in all I don't see what the big deal with spikes is. The only characters that can't deal with spikes are BAD characters, who couldn't deal with the rest of the moveset anyway (how do you think you land the spikes?)

And don't let the fact that Fox and Falco have their ridiculous pressure games fool you. An even matchup with Fox or Falco doesn't mean that you don't get your **** wrecked for most of the match (look at Marth), it means that you land a hit....and KILL THEM. What determines how severe the matchup is for your character is simply how hard it is to land that initial hit.

Melee top tiers have 10 years to fall back on for their metagames. Our demo has been out for...1 week. I would be utterly shocked if the buffed low tiers or new characters were outperforming them right now.

Also, you said Snake was balanced in, but you forget that he was already one of the top characters in Brawl. And all of his changes just make his playstyle work in Melee.

He was top tier in brawl for reasons that are not present in project M <_<. His tier placing in brawl has litterally zero relevance to how well he's balanced in P:M

 

[shanus]

People don't seem to understand that spike hits have lower knockbacks overall as compared to a meteor. As such, you will need to buff the knockback on the transition to these moves, thereby increasing launch speed and hitstun. Any missed MCs therefore will kill even earlier.

 

[Yamitsuki]

The only thing you need to change with Yoshi is allow him to jump cancel from shield. This will automatically allow him to achieve top tier status

Spoiler

(not really).

What are the future prospects of adding older melee characters like pichu/roy/mewtwo? Personally, I do not see the reason to add pichu back in. Pichu was nothing more than a weaker pikachu in revery regard. Roy was actually different enough, and mewtwo has enough of a fan base.

 

[Revven]

That discussion does not need to be resurrected Yamitsuki, nothing is decided yet. You'll just get a big fat argument started up again about Pichu which we don't need.

 

[Shadic]

I love the hypocrisy in this thread.

Care you point it specific examples instead of just making off-hand, smug comments? kthx.

Also, you said Snake was balanced in, but you forget that he was already one of the top characters in Brawl. And all of his changes just make his playstyle work in Melee.

Snake was changed completely. And a good character in Brawl isn't the same thing as a good character in Melee. Snake was reworked entirely.

And you were the one who first brought up Snake being properly balanced.

Ok, so if they were to lose their spikes, it would be so detrimental to their gameplay that balance would cease to exist. While I don't think that 0 to death combos off of a forward air should be guaranteed 100% unsurvivable, I guess if it changes them that drastically, we can't change them, because Melee is obviously the prime example of balance in a fighting game..Oh wait.

Nice sense of hyperbole you've got there. Who is this character that has "guaranteed 100% unsurvivable death combos off of a forward-air?"

And Melee is balanced well towards the top end of the tier list. The top characters play in unique styles that do a good job at keeping match-ups different between characters. And that is what we're aiming for.

Also, as for your reply about Game and watch, The working L-Cancels aren't a buff. They are a necessity.

Interesting. I was pretty sure that improvements on a character = a buff.

When you buff a character, you are supposed to buff them in places they're lacking.

See, this is the problem here. You think that bad characters need all of their weaknesses rounded out first. That's simply not true. If Falco's Melee incarnation was created and ended up low-tier, (Say, no spike and no spiking Dair) would the proper response be to improve his recovery? No! You'll end up with a cast full of characters with boring similar stats. Characters can have strong points, weak points, and still end up balanced. Even if those strong points are very good, and the weak points are very bad.

 

[UltiMario]

In every Smash game to date Mario has been used as the "well-rounded character" a jack of all trades, a master of none.

You see that in no tier list is Mario anywhere decent. Rounding off characters only makes them nothing but worse if anything.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

People don't seem to understand that spike hits have lower knockbacks overall as compared to a meteor. As such, you will need to buff the knockback on the transition to these moves, thereby increasing launch speed and hitstun. Any missed MCs therefore will kill even earlier.

People don't understand how to balance a fighting game. Perhaps they've never seriously played a real one.

Marth's dair is just a good kill move. He doesn't need it, but it doesn't break the game. Melee top tiers have somehow manage to deal with such a powerful move for over a decade.

Look at the melee top tiers recovery's, and you'll find WHY they aren't bothered by it as much. They're all either fast, sweet-spot-able at a good distance (to be able to avoid such spikes), such good horizontal recovery that it can make it harder to hit, or involve an explosion and teleport with invincibility. If you guys can handle making the other characters with less great recoveries able to pull it off, great! I just know there's a lot of work to be done.

anyway, I'm out. I remember why I left this place (and this game) in the first place. I'd suggest to all of you to try seeing how other, good games with balance (like Guilty Gear Accent Core, where one of the finals for SBO involved the worst character in the game) handle this issue of balancing, instead of answering to the majority of fans, who will always, always, always get mad if you nerf their cheap **** that netted them free wins.