Project M Social Thread

[The Upholder]

So? I have 0 problem with nair. It hits plenty fine. I didn't notice anything when I was playing. It's not like he could sh nair double jump in melee or something.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nothing mentioned about projectiles? His projectile game is so much better with the notable way that the boomerang and bombs pop opponents up. The Bow charges quickly and is fantastic for onstage gimping. How are his aerials merely decent? Fair has better kill power, Nair is as awesome as always, Dair can be linked into from several moves like DThrow and UThrow, and Uair is pretty slick too. I find the only problem with Link to be landing detection hurting his aerial game.

Link's projectiles SUCK.

Sorry, they suck. They may have decent reward on hit, but their applications are TERRIBLE.

They're too slow and require too much commitment/setup to actually improve Link's game onstage. Maybe against Ganon (who if he plays anything like he did in Melee, probably chaingrabs Link horribly)...he kinda can annoy him with his projectiles, but powershielding (without reflecting projectiles) as I recall is not as hard in Project M given there is no lightshield.

Plus someone kinda mentioned it earlier, but the Boomerang catch animation is ******** for Link. It's just one of those things he really doesn't need given his already below par onstage control.

As for Link's aerials, they aren't bad, but everyone else from what I can tell besides maybe Zelda has better aerials. Specifically Ganondorf. All of Ganon's aerials are plain better than Link's, except for N-air I guess, though Link's N-air isn't exactly what I would call broken or STUPIDLY good. Ganon's F-air, almost all of Fox, Falco, and Marth's aerials, Sheik's F-air/B-air, Jiggs's B-air, and Falcon's N-air/U-air...now those are STUPIDLY good moves. Count in Mario's B-air in that list when it comes to edgeguards.

Link really really needs a stupidly good aerial, especially to make up for how underwhelming his mobility is. IMO, his Z-air needs to be a much more viable spacer either in terms of damage or landing lag, given the startup for that move isn't fast, while the range is great.

And while Link has good throws, his grab is still terrible and loses to jumps and good pressure too easily. He kinda has to count on whiffs and people getting desperate with F-smashes in order to land grabs reliably.

if you think Link sucks then u obviously can't play him
same goes with Zelda....they are both amazingly good atm

I'm sorry compared to everyone else, I can't see how Link really competes onstage. Zelda's Din's Fire is a ridiculous, borderline broken trapping tool that actually can create retardedly safe approach opportunities. What does Link have? He sucks at approaching, and his camping is merely annoying, not actually threatening.

Link just needs his melee hookshot reach (for both grabbing and recovering) and being able to jump out of it when it grabs the ledge

Which reminds me, I don't think Link can grab the stage with Hookshot...which really really sucks.

(his f-tilt might have a little too much KBG for the speed its at right now.....then again, Brawl DI)

F-tilt buff is the best buff Link received. Everything else really just isn't remarkable.

but overall, i don't see how Link can possibly be any less than great with so many buffs

Balanced Brawl's Link CRUSHES the current build of Link, in terms of how much he was improved, and how well he competes with the rest of the respective cast. I will say that much.

 

[shanus]

Links zair is useful given that you can completely adjust your momentum unlike any other aerial. Also given its 10 fr landing lag, its not a high risk move like it was in melee (where you needed to EC it or rang cancel it).

Links rang grab animation would be useful if we could get proper rang cancel animations to work (which we want to do). However, its only a 6 frame IASA animation, so I hardly see how thats something to complain about.

Link's grab isn't used how you mention it at all. It's ised almost exclusively during a tech chase. Go watch vids of Lord HDL from today for clear examples of how to use it.

I'm sorry I have to ask, but do you know how to play Link (or have played against quality melee link)?


The worst is the final line. Balanced brawl link couldn't get a stock off PM link. Anyone who even remotely compares the two.... is of significant questionable opinion.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Also boomerang catch has IASA frame 5

 

[GPDP]

The worst is the final line. Balanced brawl link couldn't get a stock off PM link. Anyone who even remotely compares the two.... is of significant questionable opinion.

I don't think he was comparing them side to side in terms of which one is better, but in terms of how balanced they are in their perspective environments.

Granted, I've never played BBrawl, so I wouldn't know either way.

 

[Soldner Kei]

it's good to see that people it's discussing Link at least

for Link mainers he is awesome, the problem it's that not so many people play P:M over here to prove myself how good or bad I am with the character lol, but that aside, it's the best Link in any smash game or mod that I have seen so far

of course there is stuff like LD that needs to be fixed, but he is pretty good atm

 

[A2ZOMG]

Quite frankly, I don't see Z-air being rewarding enough given how slow it is. Even with 10 frames of landing lag or the ability to airdodge to alter your position, that's poor for maintaining any real pressure.

And yeah he can techchase a few fastfallers with grab. What's he going to do against floaties who know how to tumble recover? Spike them? Oh wait...

Balanced Brawl Link compared to PM Link is ridiculously superior in terms of how many buffs he was provided and how many ways he can safely approach and score early kills. BBrawl's F-smash is RIDICULOUSLY better than PM Link's F-smash, both in terms of safety on block, and raw kill power. I guess PM Link has a better F-tilt, but BBrawl Link also has a far superior Z-air, D-tilt, and D-air. Yes, D-air is superior in Brawl, given that edgetrapping is actually good in Brawl's engine, which is better than Link trying to desperately get a grab for that D-air, and vertical KOs are also better in Brawl. Don't tell me that L canceling the D-air matters, because that move is still hella unsafe even after L-canceled.

BBrawl Link also can clawshot AFTER Up-Bing, and survives much much much longer than Project M Link does, and compared to the rest of the cast, BBrawl Link especially survives longer, acting as one of the heaviest characters in the game by far, while Project M Link is combo food and not unreasonably hard to gimp. Don't tell me that gimping BBrawl Link is easier, because even in regular Brawl, top Link players rarely ever get gimped.

Sorry but Project M Link is only marginally better than the original Melee Link, and actually worse in a few small categories like recovery. In terms of how well Link works in each engine and metagame, he is by far the best in BBrawl's engine.

 

[MASTERLINKX]

Someone order a Link's Nair?

Mega slo-mo.

 

[GPDP]

Someone order a Link's Nair?

Mega slo-mo.

SAKURAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

srsly wtf man

 

[Rudra]

FFFFFFFFUUUU-

 

[MonkUnit]

lol sakurai

anyways, i want to see more snake and lucas matches

 

[C_Ferris32]

Someone order a Link's Nair?

Mega slo-mo.

AHH COME ON SAKURAI

 

[The Upholder]

Quite frankly, I don't see Z-air being rewarding enough given how slow it is. Even with 10 frames of landing lag or the ability to airdodge to alter your position, that's poor for maintaining any real pressure.

And yeah he can techchase a few fastfallers with grab. What's he going to do against floaties who know how to tumble recover? Spike them? Oh wait...

Balanced Brawl Link compared to PM Link is ridiculously superior in terms of how many buffs he was provided and how many ways he can safely approach and score early kills. BBrawl's F-smash is RIDICULOUSLY better than PM Link's F-smash, both in terms of safety on block, and raw kill power. I guess PM Link has a better F-tilt, but BBrawl Link also has a far superior Z-air, D-tilt, and D-air. Yes, D-air is superior in Brawl, given that edgetrapping is actually good in Brawl's engine, which is better than Link trying to desperately get a grab for that D-air, and vertical KOs are also better in Brawl. Don't tell me that L canceling the D-air matters, because that move is still hella unsafe even after L-canceled.

BBrawl Link also can clawshot AFTER Up-Bing, and survives much much much longer than Project M Link does, and compared to the rest of the cast, BBrawl Link especially survives longer, acting as one of the heaviest characters in the game by far, while Project M Link is combo food and not unreasonably hard to gimp. Don't tell me that gimping BBrawl Link is easier, because even in regular Brawl, top Link players rarely ever get gimped.

Sorry but Project M Link is only marginally better than the original Melee Link, and actually worse in a few small categories like recovery. In terms of how well Link works in each engine and metagame, he is by far the best in BBrawl's engine.

I'm sorry, your posts made me laugh.

Link's boomerang and arrows are worthless? You're ****ting me. You apparently don't know how to play this game. Where are you from? I'd love to play you.

Link's boomerang is fantastic. It's very easy to get a hit with them. Link gets his rang back quickly, it has massive stun both going out and returning, his bombs have a lot of kb, his arrows are quick and go a good distance without any charge.

His recovery is fine, and will be great if tethering ever gets fixed (though that's porbably not going to happen). He has a massive amount of horizontal, and plenty of vertical on his up B, and bomb jumping is fantastically easy with aerial glide tossing, giving him even more.

I mean, who the hell have you been playing that you can honestly say all that with a straight face?

edit: cali, ah. oh well.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Someone order a Link's Nair?

Mega slo-mo.

The nerd and I had the same reaction.

I like his boomerang.
For some reason I can't take it out instantly after the boomerang gets put away......

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Someone order a Link's Nair?

Mega slo-mo.

 

[C_Ferris32]

The nerd and I had the same reaction.

Holy crap, you have no idea how hard I laughed at this.

 

[kaizo13]

BBrawl Link also can clawshot AFTER Up-Bing, and survives much much much longer than Project M Link does, and compared to the rest of the cast, BBrawl Link especially survives longer, acting as one of the heaviest characters in the game by far, while Project M Link is combo food and not unreasonably hard to gimp. Don't tell me that gimping BBrawl Link is easier, because even in regular Brawl, top Link players rarely ever get gimped.

YOU'RE COMPARING BRAWL TO MELEE

ofcourse Link survives longer in Brawl......SO DOES EVERYBODY ELSE


EDIT: from reading all your posts it simply seems you prefer Brawl.....this is Project Melee

 

[Spoon~]

YOU'RE COMPARING BRAWL TO MELEE

ofcourse Link survives longer in Brawl......SO DOES EVERYBODY ELSE


EDIT: from reading all your posts it just seems like you prefer Brawl.....this is Project Melee

This.

10 of this

 

[dabridge]

I mean, who the hell have you been playing that you can honestly say all that with a straight face?

random lurker here

isn't the guy you're arguing with a major supporter of BBrawl? Of course he's going to like BBrawl's Link more, and Brawl more overall.

Which only makes me wonder why he's even posting here if he doesn't like the project, lol.

 

[Xinc]

To troll, gripe, complain, and attempt to stuff his opinions down our throats?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link's boomerang and arrows are worthless? You're ****ting me. You apparently don't know how to play this game. Where are you from? I'd love to play you.

Link's boomerang is fantastic. It's very easy to get a hit with them. Link gets his rang back quickly, it has massive stun both going out and returning, his bombs have a lot of kb, his arrows are quick and go a good distance without any charge.

That's the way it was in Melee, and his projectiles in general have always been about this "cool". Never made Link good in any Smash game, especially since his projectiles mean jack against all the other characters who are faster than him and camp better. Yes they are good PUNISHERS, given his opponent screws up/fails at the matchup/plays on autopilot.

Good projectiles include Din's Fire, Sheik's Needles, and Fox/Falco's lasers. and of course Captain Falcon because everyone knows he's the best projectile in the game Link's projectiles are not good. They are annoying and rewarding on hit. That does not make them good.

His recovery is fine, and will be great if tethering ever gets fixed (though that's porbably not going to happen). He has a massive amount of horizontal, and plenty of vertical on his up B, and bomb jumping is fantastically easy with aerial glide tossing, giving him even more.

It's still telegraphed as hell, and it's going to lose against people who know how to use the ledge. Ganon had one of the best recoveries in terms of distance in Melee. Didn't make his recovery good at all.

Here Link is ultimately still a fragile character who really doesn't have as good of an onstage game as other characters do. Yes he has some fun stuff that is rewarding. Other characters do too, and are faster and better at pressuring than he is.

Whereas in BBrawl, Link is a character who is MUCH more durable than the vast majority of the cast, hits at a level that's significantly above average especially when broken CGs are no longer an issue, and actually has a competitive onstage game that lets him effectively pressure people into cracking their defenses.

And Project M claims that they want their version of Link to be the best incarnation of Link seen in a Smash game. I am not against this. I am being realistic.

 

[Spoon~]

Stop comparing brawl to project m, its not even close to the same thing. EVERYONE recovers in brawl, the ledge game is almost non existent.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The comparison at hand is explaining that Link is in fact competitively superior in Balanced Brawl. If Project M is in fact trying to make their version of Link competitively the best one seen in a Smash game, they are NOT EVEN CLOSE to how well Balanced Brawl succeeded in making Link viable.

Link has always been mediocre due to being slow and having bad pressure options, especially in Melee. Furthermore his weight and physics hinder him far more in Melee due to how easily he gets comboed, which in turn makes him a fragile character with a subpar onstage game.

If that's not changing, he's never going to be better than he was in Balanced Brawl, where he's a character with some of the best durability in the game by far and a COMPETITIVE onstage game with noticeably above average reward.

 

[MonkUnit]

The comparison at hand is explaining that Link is in fact competitively superior in Balanced Brawl. If Project M is in fact trying to make their version of Link competitively the best one seen in a Smash game, they are NOT EVEN CLOSE to how well Balanced Brawl succeeded in making Link viable.

Link has always been mediocre due to being slow and having bad pressure options, especially in Melee. Furthermore his weight and physics hinder him far more in Melee due to how easily he gets comboed, which in turn makes him a fragile character with a subpar onstage game.

If that's not changing, he's never going to be better than he was in Balanced Brawl, where he's a character with some of the best durability in the game by far and a COMPETITIVE onstage game with noticeably above average reward.

Then put BBrawl Link into Project M and see how he does

 

[A2ZOMG]

You sir are missing the point completely.

Link is high tier in Balanced Brawl.

Link is lower mid tier in Project M.

And your website is trying to suggest that Link in Project M is competitively superior to all incarnations of Link.

I'm telling you HOW Link can be competitively superior in Project M. Instead of being ignorant to the fact that Link is not competitively superior, you should realize what you can do to fix that.

 

[kaizo13]

gettin tired of this......BBrawl Link is good....in BBrawl

throw him in a Melee environment and see how bad he gets wrecked...

/done


EDIT: completely ****en Ninja'd by Monk

EDIT#2: This Project hasn't even started it's balancing phase! you've had an alpha/demo for a couple of days with only 14 characters (which are not completed either) how can you claim Link to be lower mid tier in Project M....you make no dam sense

 

[Revven]

You sir are missing the point completely.

Link is high tier in Balanced Brawl.

Link is lower mid tier in Project M.

And you're website is trying to suggest that Link in Project M is competitively superior to all incarnations of Link.

I'm telling you HOW Link can be competitively superior in Project M. Instead of being ignorant to the fact that Link is not competitively superior, you should realize what you can do to fix that.

As much as I hate responding to crap like this, I'm going to anyway.

How about we wait for sufficient tourney results over the course of several months instead of stating literally two weeks after the demo has been out that Link is garbage? You're making yourself kind of look dumb saying that Link isn't that good when the demo has barely been out a month.

Until he is proven in tourney results to not be that good, we won't be changing Link.

 

[C_Ferris32]

gettin tired of this......BBrawl Link is good....in BBrawl

throw him in a Melee environment and see how bad he gets wrecked...

/done


EDIT: completely ****en Ninja'd by Monk

This.

[Filler for post length]

 

[A2ZOMG]

gettin tired of this......BBrawl Link is good....in BBrawl

throw him in a Melee environment and see how bad he gets wrecked...

/done


EDIT: completely ****en Ninja'd by Monk

I beg to differ, BBrawl Link in the Melee environment would **** massively, if you kept the Brawl lag on his Z-air as well as the RIDICULOUS knockback on his F-smash.

Yeah he would be pretty fragile, but he would actually be comparable to Falco, with Z-air pressure strings and retardedly good potential to break shields and just kill people in general with F-smash. It's not like the rest of his moves are significantly different anyway. Furthermore grabbing the ledge out of Up-B with Z-air would be situationally useful, probably more useful than Bomb Jumping for that matter.

 

[Vigilante]

random lurker here

isn't the guy you're arguing with a major supporter of BBrawl? Of course he's going to like BBrawl's Link more, and Brawl more overall.

Which only makes me wonder why he's even posting here if he doesn't like the project, lol.

You're pretty insightful.

I personally stopped taking this guy seriously when he used "Balanced" and "Brawl" in the same sentence. No amount of tweaking could make Brawl's system work well, unless it's a complete Melee overhaul, I feel . And that in project M. He obviously can't adapt to the new and improved Link.

 

[Rudra]

A2ZOMG, is there a tier list for P:M already, because that statement about Link's placement seems invalid otherwise. While Link may need to be revised or improved, its still a little too early to say just how good/bad he really is. The BBrawl - P:M comparisons dont help your case much either.

Ninja'd @_@

Anyways, even if Link: M isnt "competitively superior" to his other incarnations now, who's to say that he wont be after the balancing phase?

 

[RK9]

Too many pages of stuff to look through.
My question:
Why would I want to play Project M over vBrawl, BBrawl or regular Melee?
(Like someone briefly explain the benefits of this game, I'd like to try it maybe).
thxkbye.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I play both Melee and Brawl competitively keep in mind. I did make it out of Melee pools at WGF anyhow.

And you would be surprised at how simple fixes that remove infinites and prevent planking alone make Brawl competitive. Furthermore clever implementation of invincibility frames, super armor, and balancing move reward.

Either way I somewhat dislike dojo sites in general given how many stupid assumptions and self promoting statements they make. It's not really something I have against Project M in specific, though since it's under development, I'm gonna be complaining about anything that clearly isn't right. And Link clearly is not competitively superior in the current Demo build of Project M, and the reasons are extremely simple.

 

[Shadic]

Too many pages of stuff to look through.
My question:
Why would I want to play Project M over vBrawl, BBrawl or regular Melee?
(Like someone briefly explain the benefits of this game, I'd like to try it maybe).thxkbye.

It plays extremely close to Melee does, but with (eventually) more characters, and much greater balance. It has more stages, some cool new mechanics, and better graphics.

And if you can stomach it, Meleeesque online play.

 

[Revven]

Either way I somewhat dislike dojo sites in general given how many stupid assumptions and self promoting statements they make. It's not really something I have against Project M in specific, though since it's under development, I'm gonna be complaining about anything that clearly isn't right. And Link clearly is not competitively superior in the current Demo build of Project M, and the reasons are extremely simple.

As much as I hate responding to crap like this, I'm going to anyway.

How about we wait for sufficient tourney results over the course of several months instead of stating literally two weeks after the demo has been out that Link is garbage? You're making yourself kind of look dumb saying that Link isn't that good when the demo has barely been out a month.

Until he is proven in tourney results to not be that good, we won't be changing Link.

In any case, we'll take your criticism into consideration. Thanks for your time.

 

[MK26]

@vigilante: you're making the same mistake the project m haters make

NEVER underestimate a brawl hacker. they work ****ing miracles.

 

[The Upholder]

That's the way it was in Melee, and his projectiles in general have always been about this "cool". Never made Link good in any Smash game, especially since his projectiles mean jack against all the other characters who are faster than him and camp better. Yes they are good PUNISHERS, given his opponent screws up/fails at the matchup/plays on autopilot.

Good projectiles include Din's Fire, Sheik's Needles, and Fox/Falco's lasers. and of course Captain Falcon because everyone knows he's the best projectile in the game Link's projectiles are not good. They are annoying and rewarding on hit. That does not make them good.

It's still telegraphed as hell, and it's going to lose against people who know how to use the ledge. Ganon had one of the best recoveries in terms of distance in Melee. Didn't make his recovery good at all.

Here Link is ultimately still a fragile character who really doesn't have as good of an onstage game as other characters do. Yes he has some fun stuff that is rewarding. Other characters do too, and are faster and better at pressuring than he is.

Whereas in BBrawl, Link is a character who is MUCH more durable than the vast majority of the cast, hits at a level that's significantly above average especially when broken CGs are no longer an issue, and actually has a competitive onstage game that lets him effectively pressure people into cracking their defenses.

And Project M claims that they want their version of Link to be the best incarnation of Link seen in a Smash game. I am not against this. I am being realistic.

except that in melee, link's arrows were trash. His boomerang had MUCH less stun and kb, especially when it returned. His bombs had much less kb/stun as well.

His dair has less lag than it did in melee, and if you're still not satisfied with that, you can bounce off of shields and edge cancel as well. His sword based moves in general have extended range and stun. His usmash and dsmash are both fantastic. Both deal good damage, kill, have good shield pressure (usmash in particular), and combo. Almost nothing about him is arguably worse than in melee(just recovery as you pointed out) and mostly things have been significantly buffed.

His recovery even then is mostly fine.If he's recovering from below the stage is difficult to edge guard the up B, and rolling doesn't work as well. Due to brawl DI, you can live a long time, and it's fairly easy to get an opponent off the edge/prevent them from doing so with his arrows, which essentially work like doc's pills do, and when you do that you have the option of an up B or an air dodge grapple, or stalling with a bomb jump. I made it back the majority of the time I ended up off the stage, even against sheik and marth, and that was before I learned how to bomb jump. I'd never played P:M melee before 2 days ago, and I still did fine against top players like vanz playing familiar characters from melee like fox and sheik.

There was not a single character I didn't feel I could beat. I was never overwhelmingly pressured or in danger. I either felt like the matchup was even, or else in link's favor (see: ganondorf).

 

[A2ZOMG]

You could, y'know, actually get advice from real players what each character's matchup spreads and strengths/weaknesses are when trying to balance characters. Not saying you haven't, but I feel someone didn't talk to Skler or read his extensive information on Link when trying to redesign him. You could probably find a lot of posts in his matchup discussion on why Link clearly loses to Young Link and Fox.

 

[Revven]

You could, y'know, actually get advice from real players what each character's matchup spreads and strengths/weaknesses are when trying to balance characters. Not saying you haven't, but I feel someone didn't talk to Skler or read his extensive information on Link when trying to redesign him. You could probably find a lot of posts in his matchup discussion on why Link clearly loses to Young Link and Fox.

Bolded: Uh, we did talk to Skler. These are actually the changes he wanted believe it or not. We took most if not all of his ideas when we built Link. Most of them just so happened to be IASA changes and the sped up Ftilt, fixing up hitboxes, and so on. In fact, he liked the way Link played in Melee, hence why much of the changes do not involve tweaking his physics in any way.

We contacted him 8 months ago.

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, sounds like we actually did 90% of what Skler asked, and then more.

So.. Why should we ignore Skler's advice for yours, exactly? You've already admitted his credentials.