Road to Apex: Leon's Smash Clash (PREV BBI2) - ADDRESS CHANGE ! POOLS&BRACKET !

[Luigi player]

Dedede's 0 death is harder because you have to do it longer while having the same input and you can't end it in a kill move.

Marth's you can mash out and get like 30% across the stage.

Piachu's you can end with Upsmash.

Not my tourney but all or nothing IMO.

d3s is easier and he CAN end with a kill move (dtilt, somtimes buffered dash-usmash too)

 

[| Big D |]

Thing is it's the same input for the CG so they're both just as easy to do, dtilt is not guaranteed and buffered upsmash doesn't even work on the people who get infinited.

While Pikachu has a guaranteed upsmash.

And they're both stupidly easy, one being a little bit harder than the other can't warrant a ban.

 

[Blubolouis]

Pikachu's CG on wolf, fox, etc, is kind of match-up changing, whereas Marth already destroys Ness, and DDD already owns mario... But of course, there are counter-examples (ddd/dk I guess ?).

 

[| Big D |]

I don't see "match-up changing" being an effective reason to only ban DDD's as opposed to pikachu's.

They are bother insanely match up changing, and I would argue that DDD's can be mashed out of dues to needing a pummel and Marth's does go across the stage allowing you to just take 30% if you also mash.

You are trying to defend your position based on a meta game which you have imagined and try and pertains to that idea as opposed to what is actually going on.

 

[AtneyB]

Hey | Big D |
Are you actually planning to come to this or something ... ?
Cause I honestly don't see the point of your "contribution" to this thread if it's not *****ing for ish

 

[| Big D |]

Man this tourney looks hype and I really enjoyed the last one but, If you are going to ban all grab infinite, what makes DDD's on DK and Mario different from Pikachu's 0-death grab on spacies?

OBVS

10obvs

 

[AtneyB]

Hey | Big D |
Are you actually planning to come to this or something ... ?
Cause I honestly don't see the point of your "contribution" to this thread if it's not *****ing for ish

Cause I honestly don't see the point of your "contribution" to this thread if it's not *****ing for ish

if it's not *****ing for ish

And I think what makes the difference between DDD infinite and Pika cg is that Pika cg is not an infinite. [/OBVS]

 

[| Big D |]

But they are both a stock.

So really there is no difference.

 

[AtneyB]

No.
On the one hand you have an infinite which can allow the performer to play the time.
On the other you have cg which can't last enough to drastically impact on the timer.
I personally discern a difference.

Btw the only true cg based Pika's 0-death I ever heard about is on Wolf and requires a footstool + QAC lock at x%

 

[| Big D |]

Hence why most tourneys have a rule in place to prevent stalling not allowing it to go past 300%

Btw, the only true DDD 0 death is on DK and DDD.

 

[Luigi player]

Hence why most tourneys have a rule in place to prevent stalling not allowing it to go past 300%

Btw, the only true DDD 0 death is on DK and DDD.

And Snake, Charizard, Wolf... probably some more.

 

[xDD-Master]

Snake needs pummel, and I'm sure 'Zard too. (And they are ****ing hard anyway)
Wolf is correct so IIRC. DK needs no Pummels.
Mario, Samus and Luigi need Pummels.

 

[Feather]

I will house 3 or 4 guys, you guys from UK are my priority because of last time

Im an English Olimar and I shall be coming with G~P, Sinth and Loz and would really appreciate if you could house me as well Leon. Looking forward to this.

 

[Heartstring]

Im an English Olimar and I shall be coming with G~P, Sinth and Loz and would really appreciate if you could house me as well Leon. Looking forward to this.

Would be cool if you would tell me youre tagging along too, but hey
We'll organise shiz at SR2

 

[Feather]

Would be cool if you would tell me youre tagging along too, but hey
We'll organise shiz at SR2

Yeah man I forgot you are going as well but yeah I am going. You wanting to stay round mine again after SR2? Or you going to stay at Legacy's? Cause if you do that ill probably just end up staying round his as well either way.

 

[teluoborg]

I don't see "match-up changing" being an effective reason to only ban DDD's as opposed to pikachu's.

They are bother insanely match up changing, and I would argue that DDD's can be mashed out of dues to needing a pummel and Marth's does go across the stage allowing you to just take 30% if you also mash.

You are trying to defend your position based on a meta game which you have imagined and try and pertains to that idea as opposed to what is actually going on.

Let's put it in a clear way :
Some infinites/0-death/CGs require a certain condition to work : IC must have Nana near, Pikachu must grab his opponent before 50%, etc.

Now there are some infinites/0-death that can work 100% of the time, those are banned.
That's the same reason we use to ban Ordinn and keep Delfino.

Yes, those are empirical decisions, but Brawl was never meant for competition and some lines have to be drawn.

Standing infinites are banned, Fin.

 

[| Big D |]

DDD must grab his opponent over 110%.

Pikachu's grab > Dedede's

Pikachu's cg banned, Fin.

See it's easy, I can do it too.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah, except it doesn't count when you're wrong.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237961

Check your facts before you try to sound cocky next time, it'll work a lot better.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes, those are empirical decisions, but Brawl was never meant for competition and some lines have to be drawn.

If the line weren't do damn arbitrary I'd have no issues with it =/

 

[Heartstring]

Yeah man I forgot you are going as well but yeah I am going. You wanting to stay round mine again after SR2? Or you going to stay at Legacy's? Cause if you do that ill probably just end up staying round his as well either way.

Dunno, might stay at siri's, havent seen him in ages XD

If the line weren't do damn arbitrary I'd have no issues with it =/

Same, same
Also I feel privileged to be in someone sig

 

[xDD-Master]

Let's put it in a clear way :
Some infinites/0-death/CGs require a certain condition to work : IC must have Nana near, Pikachu must grab his opponent before 50%, etc.
Now there are some infinites/0-death that can work 100% of the time, those are banned.

Check your facts before you try to sound cocky next time, it'll work a lot better.

But you need to pummel to make DDDs Infinite work vs. some characters?

From your linked thread:

Chapter 3.2: The Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab

The Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab can be performed on 4 characters in the game: Donkey Kong, Mario, Luigi, and Samus. The others require some sort of a perfectly spaced set up to work. Donkey Kong is by far the easiest to chaingrab. You can literally mash the throw button after each D Throw and manage a regrab 90% of the time. The other three require some explanation.

As I said in my video, the others cannot be successively chained more than 5 times before the D Throw stales and they can no longer be chained. Ankoku and I actually used this information to not only prove that the move stales but also to prove that there were only 9 moves in the stale move list. Here's how:

If we assume there are 9 moves in the stale move list, then my move list on Donkey Kong when performing the Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab would look something like this:

D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw, D Throw
(with each successive D Throw replacing the first one in the list over and over)

The problem with Mario, Samus, and Luigi is, after 5 successful D Throws, they suddenly are no longer in reach. SCOTU discovered the reason for this. The problem is the waft itself stales which screws up their trajectory and does not allow for a regrab. Why is this? No one really knows. If the waft stales it would make more sense that they move closer not out of your reach but then again, that's one of Brawl's great mysteries. Anyway, to make it an infinite combo, we would have to ensure that there were no more than 5 D Throws in the stale move list at one time. If we add a single pummel in between each D Throw, the stale move list looks like this:

D Throw, Pummel, D Throw, Pummel, D Throw, Pummel, D Throw, Pummel, D Throw
(therefore, the next stale move list would have 5 pummels and 4 D Throws and would rotate constantly in that order)

Because there are never more than 5 D Throws in my stale move list, the D Throw never stales enough to make them miss the trajectory, so they will then be stuck in the grab infinitely. The only problem is at lower percents you probably will not be able to guarantee even 1 pummel in the chain, so this is only an infinite at higher percents. Even then, you must buffer in a hit and buffer in the D Throw immediately for this to be a true infinite.

Chapter 3.3: The Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab on an Edge

For some unlucky few, the Wall-less Standing Infinite Grab works on them but only when they are spaced perfectly on an edge, and the timing is the most strict of any chaingrabs listed so far in this guide. You have to buffer in the down throw immediately or they will break out due to being off of the edge partly. It really screws with the game's physics. The characters who can be infinitely chaingrabbed over an edge are: Bowser, King Dedede, and Wolf. Of the former characters who can be chaingrabbed anywhere, Mario is the only character who cannot be chaingrabbed infinitely over an edge, no matter the situation. This works the exact same way. Obviously, because of the spacing, it is stage specific where you must grab each character to make the infinite work, but there is a way to get it on almost any stage.

Chapter 3.4: Stages that Cause or Aide in King Dedede's Infinite Chaingrabs

These are a collection of stages, still allowed by the SBR, where characters can be chaingrabbed infinitely into a wall, off of a level, or on a moving platform. I'll detail where and for how long you can successfully infinite chaingrab someone on these levels.

Starter
Battlefield: None.
Final Destination: None.
Smashville: The floating platform can cause an infinite regrab situation if you grab them on the platform and are grabbing them on the edge of it in the direction the platform is moving. Extremely situational, but M2K used it against TheReflexWonder in the grand finals of FAST1 (1:52). Follow it up with a D Tilt on everyone in the cast.
Yoshi's Island: None.

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege: During the second transformation King Dedede can chaingrab followed by a forward throw off of the sides.
Halberd: There's a walk off and 2 walls in the beginning 11 seconds of the stage. When the match starts out, the entire arena is flat. About 3 seconds into being on that stage, the platform appears from a shaft under the players. Once the 'primary' platform completely rises up [about 4 second into the match] 2 walls are available inside that shaft the platform raised out of. That shaft has a door that closes over top of it shortly after the primary floaty platform comes up. (credit to "D.E.").
Lylat Cruise: None.
Pokémon Stadium 1: Walls are formed twice on the stage and there are three altogether. The first is during the rock transformation in the little area formed next to the big rock which takes up the majority of the left side of the stage. The other two are during the fire transformation. One on the left side of the tree and the other on the right side of the tree.

Counter
Brinstar: None.
Delfino: There are so many I can't even count them. Anytime there's a walk-off section, you can chaingrab to forward throw to kill them. There are also mini half walls which spawn with some water running through them. They count as walls. The other one people might not know about is the transformation with the house that doesn't have a ledge. On the left, it is a walk off, so you can chaingrab them off of it like normal, but on the right there is a part of the house with no edge on it. If you Pummel Break a character there, it can lead to instant death depending on the character. I have done this successfully to Wolf, but I'm not sure who else it works on. Anyone with a crappy recovery might mean instant death too. Be careful not to be so concerned with the kill that the stage leaves without you however!
Frigate Orpheon: When the platform on the right is at it's lowest on the first transformation, you can chain a couple grabs into the wall on the left before it goes back up. Also, on the second part, you can technically chain them off of the platforms that appear and disappear, but it could also get you killed.
Jungle Japes: None.
Pictochat: A few walls form temporarily during a few of the transformations.
Pirate Ship: The small ship that comes on the right has a tiny wall, but it's not worth your time.
Pokémon Stadium 2: None. (you'd think the sandpile might work, but a lot of the time it doesn't.)
Rainbow Cruise: The right side of the boat acts as a wall there are also walls at the top after the big swing and one just as the stage is returning to the boat.

Counter/Banned
Distant Planet: Walk-off on the left side (timing is tricky!) Watch out for the water
Green Greens: The blocks, once collected form walls. Watch out for the wind which can disrupt the infinite.
Luigi's Mansion: None.
Port Town Aero Dive: There are two areas with walkoffs that are suitable for walkoff cgs: here and here. There are also three areas in this stage that have a pair of walls, but the transformations don't last long in this stage so you will have to be quick to use them! (credit to Kirk for the pictures and SimaMatt for the explaination.)
Yoshi's Island (Pipes): The right side has a walk-off (timing is tricky!)
Norfair: None.

Use this knowledge to your advantage because nowhere are chaining off of walk-offs or infiniting into walls banned!

So I got three questions:

Am I allowed to Standing Chaingrab on the SV platform?
Am I allowed to Standing Chaingrab against a wall?
Am I allowed to Small Step Chaingrab vs DK?



BTW. Ordinn = Bridge of ELDIN

 

[Feather]

Dunno, might stay at siri's, havent seen him in ages XD

Ok dude you make sure shlurps and siri come to SR2!!

 

[teluoborg]

@Akuma :
1-the setup isn't infinite in itself so yes
2-same, assuming no legal stage has a permanent wall
3-dunno ask Leon. Technically I'd say yes but it's one of the grey areas the TO decides on.

@Gheb+GP :
I'd like to hear what alternative you propose to "arbitrary decisions" in terms of ruleset.
Edit because I'm being an ***

 

[xDD-Master]

Am I allowed to Standing Chaingrab DK on PS1 as it isnt an infinite on this stage?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Gheb+GP :
I'd like to hear what alternative you propose to "arbitrary decisions" in terms of ruleset.
Edit because I'm being an ***

Either allow them all or ban them all.

 

[teluoborg]

@Akuma : As long as it is performed against a wall yes.

Edit@Gheb : define "them all". Good luck.

 

[xDD-Master]

@Akuma : As long as it is performed against a wall yes.

I mean in general, because on PS1 every infinite will be interrupted sooner or later basically making it not an infinite anymore.
Or wait a better question: Am I allowed to Standing Chaingrab on Fregate? Because there they also dont count as infinites because they WILL be interrupted.
And that was your criteria for what is allowed and what not IIRC.
So if "its only temporary" is your criteria, then I should be allowed to CG on Fregate.
Or, if you want to be consequent, you should ban ALL standing infinites.

And another question:
1) Is this allowed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUtUo7jOGGU
2) What about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNTfktgrsS8
Do they count as a standing chaingrabs?

 

[Heartstring]

@Gheb+GP :
I'd like to hear what alternative you propose to "arbitrary decisions" in terms of ruleset

I thought it was just fine as it is XD

 

[Draqo]

*-*

have to save my money :o

 

[| Big D |]

Pikachu's CG is more effective than DDD's.

And Wario's on Wolf is more effective than DDD's.

Wario's goes from like 60 to 180 without the possibility of mashing out while DDD's requires pummels so they can break out until like 110%.

All or nothing, pick one. Middle ground is just surgically nerfing characters which is unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[teluoborg]

Big D you have to understand it's about nature, not about function.
It' doesn't matter if Pika's CG is more effective or whatnot.
CGs are just a guaranteed and limited amount of damage and in this regard are closer to combos and GRs than infinites.
Also lol@implying that characters aren't already surgically nerfed/buffed by the actual ruleset. Changing the ruleset changes the metagame, obviously.
Now the part about Wolf breaking out before 110% might be interesting, can I have the source that contradicts mine ?

@Akuma : sorry but you've reached the point where you should just ask Leon because the area you're in is so grey our answer could differ.

 

[| Big D |]

Ok so what you're saying is that because it seems like Pika's cg is closer to a combo even though it means a stock but isn't truly an infinite means we don't have to ban in even though it has the same effect.

You're surgically nerfing characters' move sets.

And what are you talking about, I was using Wario's CG on Wolf as an example of something you would also have to ban.

You can mash out of DDD's since it requires a pummel except on DDD and DK.
You have to understand I'm against banning anything at all.

 

[Heartstring]

you don't understand what he means by the nature of it, he means the properties, think of it this way; could pikachu continue to cg untill 300%

no, he can't. they would get knocked too far away

could dedede do it?

yes, and run out at least 2 minutes of the clock at the same time

on top of that, pikachu needs to get the grab at a low % to cg to high % whilst dedede can start it at any %

 

[| Big D |]

DDD needs to start at high percents due to pummels.

Pikachu can take off a stock from low percents.

DDD can only do it at high percents.

The rule is it can only be done to 300%, that's what prevents stalling.

Taking time off the clock is no reason to ban something or you may as well just ban the ICs chaingrab as well. Hobbling to 250% can take a very long time.

Not only are Pikachu's and Wario's CGs better but they can start at low percents. And even if they screw up they still have them at high percents, getting them from low to high.

While with DDD you need to start it at high percents and if you mess up they are still at high percents so you haven't gone anywhere.

 

[Heartstring]

dedede can do it at any percent providing its timed right, its still an infinite while pika's is not. please stop spouting incorrect facts

 

[| Big D |]

No he can't do it at at any percent because it requires a pummel, which means it can be broken out of. While Wario/Pikachu's who's CGs result in a full stock cannot. Wario's dthrow is slower anyways and takes longer than DDD's to get to capacity.

They all result in a stocks. You can't argue difficulty/timer/effectiveness.

There is no argument, all you're doing is labeling it an infinite and saying it must be banned.

I used to main DDD.

GET OVER YOURSELF

I never said it wasn't an infinite, but you can't just say OMG INFINITE WE SHOULD BAN IT OMG BAN ALL THE INFINITES.

 

[Leon94]

all pika's CG are allowed, and about DDD only his infinite grab when he doesn't to dash to regard are banned. but the infinite with the wall like in PS1 or delfino are allowed.

BTW next week I will put the link for registration, the payout will be possible via paypal, with people from other country who couldn't pay via paypal. You should contact me i would do something for you

 

[teluoborg]

They all result in a stocks. You can't argue difficulty/timer/effectiveness.

That's right, that's why I argue about nature. You're the one arguing about effectiveness.

I never said it wasn't an infinite, but you can't just say OMG INFINITE WE SHOULD BAN IT OMG BAN ALL THE INFINITES.

Lol why not.
Why does this sound more surgical to you than "infinites should be stopped before 300%" or any ledge grab limit or even IDC ban ?
Stop being biased.

 

[Schwa]

Akuma with the questions : D

 

[Heartstring]

I used to main DDD..

suddenly your reasons make more sense
oh the bias