Rock Paper Scissors

[Nelo Vergil]

Port Town should go back to banned, and Halbred needs to go back to CP, otherwise I like it alot =D. But its his tournament, and his calls, every region has its own flair after all.

 

[red_comet]

So far agreeing with Colin on everything he says, probably personal bias, sorry Luke.

As for Stage lists, I'm sure everyone has seen the Stage thread "Why do people think FD should be a CP?" if not: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258820
Probably the reason or at least a reason to have more than 5 stages like the old tourneys.

I love the stage list lol. More stages = more of what people play brawl for.

QFT

 

[ChaosDrifter]

New stages suck and there was no reason to change them. putting some really good cp's in the neutral category is uncalled for and not based on any real need.. i don't see why the unbroken stage system is being fixed when it didn't need it unless this is just the new host's adding a "personal flair" to distinguish these monthlies from our old ones. Absolutely unnecessary IMO.

I think you're just looking at this wrong fraser. You're right they were unbroken before but we didn't "fix" them persay, just changed them to try out a wider array of stages and CP's to make the game more interesting.

Alot of these stages are pretty good (except maybe pirate ship), we just haven't given them much of a chance yet. I think having more stages to choose from will really make matches more fun and stage knowledge will become even more important than it already was.

 

[T-block]

New stages suck and there was no reason to change them. putting some really good cp's in the neutral category is uncalled for and not based on any real need.. i don't see why the unbroken stage system is being fixed when it didn't need it unless this is just the new host's adding a "personal flair" to distinguish these monthlies from our old ones. Absolutely unnecessary IMO.

lol I figured you'd be one to have issues with this. This is not a desire to add "personal flair" to the monthlies, but rather slightly different philosophy on what Brawl is. I'm sure you know I've always been an advocate of allowing more stages (see PS2). Why should we restrict ourselves to the least radical of stages? Why remove elements from a game when they don't actually influence the outcome of a match in a negative fashion? Stages should be banned for one or more of three reasons.

1) They offer an unfair advantage to one character or a small subset of characters such that any other character cannot win on the stage.
2) They introduce degenerate strategies into the metagame, where all play reduces to a single tactic, often trivial to perform. Running away on Temple is an example.
3) They involve random elements that have a large impact on the match such that the stage cannot yield consistent results.

Any other reason for banning a stage is usually "i don't like it". If you have any problems with these three reasons, I suggest you refute this first, as any further arguments will be based on this premise.

I will be watching the new stages closely, but I don't think any of the three criteria above apply to them, although I admit some do come close. I suggest that everyone take a look at http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217615 and http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244610 before criticizing them. Maybe some of these aren't as bad as you think.

Also, I challenge anyone to argue that Halberd should not be a starter. Keep in mind that the lack of moving hazards is NOT a part of the definition of a starter. We assume that any stage that is legal is fair for tournament play (which I admit, might not be the case at the moment, but should be after the first two monthlies), as if they were not fair, they would be banned. Then, the only thing left to look at in determining a starter is not whether a stage is fair, but how much of an advantage it can offer one character over another. We want the stage to play as small a part as possible in determining the outcome of the first match, but this does not mean Halberd's hazards are a bad thing. Hazards, especially ones as tame as Halberd's, do not give one character much, if any, advantage over another. It's been argued, and justifiably so, that FD has more of an impact on the outcome of the match than Halberd ever could.

As for the ledge grab rule, I'm still torn. I'm probably on Luke's side at the moment, but I want to keep with not banning anything unless it's necessary. I am curious though, Luke... as Colin asked, how do you intend to play gay to show that your rule should be over the current one? I think as long as your opponent doesn't approach stupidly while you're ledgegrabbing, it shouldn't make a difference.

 

[Limeee]

hopefully we won't play every first match on smashville anymore

 

[ChaosDrifter]

hopefully We Won't Play Every First Match On Smashville Anymore

Lies!!!!!!!!!

 

[x After Dawn x]

wtf have you guys done to the stage list lol

also, if I can just suggest one thing, take off yoshi's island pipes. the hole in the middle disrupts gameplay, the solid platforms above each side mimic the temple effect where people can't die because they hit a ceiling, and the walk-off on the right side is dumb, especially if you get chaingrabbed right off it.

 

[Limeee]

i support everything except green greens (campy and random bull****) and pipes (even though its a good stage for me, it has walk offs however situational, extreme ability to plank and those blocks can be kind of dumb too)

i didn't like port town aero drive but mike w proved his point

 

[x After Dawn x]

the cars in port town kill at extremely low %.

I don't really remember the exact number, but I believe they killed bowser at 56 %, and bowser is the heaviest char in the game.

port town matches #3 btw.

 

[DTP]

i support everything except green greens (campy and random bull****) and pipes (even though its a good stage for me, it has walk offs however situational, extreme ability to plank and those blocks can be kind of dumb too)

i didn't like port town aero drive but mike w proved his point

Yeah, those are the exact same 3 stages that I have an issue with as well, but I can deal.
I'll just have to practice playing on them just in case.

 

[Iliad]

this tourney needs moar legal planking, and moar halberd for starter.

*edit*

@ Colin: have fun placing when a d3 CPs you to Distant planet, or yoshi pipes.

@ T-Block: Pirate ship doesn't have random elements that affect gameplay? The cannons? The catapult, the LOW GRAVITY in certain intervals?

Pictochat doesn't have random elements that affect gameplay? Like... everything that spawns into that map?

How about Green Greens? with falling blocks that can turn out to be bombs or the wind which can gimp last ditch recoveries?

Or PS2 with dreaded Low gravity, tread mills, etc.

Distant planet, with random rainstorms that make one side of the map unplayable, and the random monster-gay-thing that can kill on the opposite side of the map?

Luigi's Mansion... Oh right you guys don't have metaknights. NM, keep it.

I mean, jesus christ bro, why don't you put in The Summit or Rumble Falls while you're at it? There's a reason why TOs ban these maps. Not because they're "gay", but because they have unfair advantages to characters, and the random elements risk upsetting a match that should be based on player skill, but luck of the map effects.

 

[Kuraudo]

We have MKs. Stfu n00b. LOL!

 

[Limeee]

I like Iliad.

 

[Nelo Vergil]

*Sigh* Sakurai, why must you suck at balancing and stage design >_>....seriously, he didnt even get a straight ****ing line (FD) right

 

[ColinJF]

this tourney needs moar legal planking, and moar halberd for starter.

I'm told to interpret this facetiously.

How do you propose to ban "planking" and why would doing so be justified? Why is the current rule limiting ledge camping insufficient? Why shouldn't Halberd be a starter stage?

@ Colin: have fun placing when a d3 CPs you to Distant planet, or yoshi pipes.

I use Ness and Mr. Game & Watch in tournaments. Neither can be chaingrabbed up the slope on Yoshi's Island (Melee) or Distant Planet by King Dedede.

The only characters that King Dedede can chaingrab up the slope on Yoshi's Island (Melee) are Donkey Kong, Wario, Link, Ganondorf, Wolf, and Lucario (source) and Donkey Kong loses a stock from being grabbed by King Dedede on any stage.

King Dedede cannot chaingrab Ness up the slope on Distant Planet either (source), and camping the slope in general is a poor strategy because of the rain.

@ T-Block: Pirate ship doesn't have random elements that affect gameplay? The cannons? The catapult, the LOW GRAVITY in certain intervals?

The presence of random elements that affect gameplay isn't a reason to ban a stage. It's only a problem if the random elements create non-negligible variance in the outcome of matches.

As for Pirate Ship specifically, there are various places on the stage where the cannons will never hit, including the highest platform, and although the cannonballs are strong, they are trivial to block or otherwise avoid. The catapult will never kill any character with the proper DI; it is not a threat if you have some knowledge of the stage, and one of the skills we do want to test is stage knowledge, so this is perfectly legitimate. The low gravity comes at random times, but there's nothing random about the gravity itself, and it's certainly not inherently broken. Certain characters benefit from it, but it's well within the realm of a normal counterpick, and you can just not jump if you are afraid of getting ***** in the air.

Pictochat doesn't have random elements that affect gameplay? Like... everything that spawns into that map?

Every form on pictochat is reasonable. None introduce excessive variance to the outcome of the match, and none provide notable character benefits. All of the hazards are either benign or easily avoided. This is a very fair stage.

How about Green Greens? with falling blocks that can turn out to be bombs or the wind which can gimp last ditch recoveries?

What's broken about either of these things? You don't approach every stage the same; playing on Green Greens requires some knowledge of how to handle the "falling blocks", notably not getting hit by them recklessly.

Or PS2 with dreaded Low gravity, tread mills, etc.

What's broken about any of these things? Listing elements of a stage that differ from "flat ground" does not constitute an argument of why the stage should be banned.

Distant planet, with random rainstorms that make one side of the map unplayable, and the random monster-gay-thing that can kill on the opposite side of the map?

As I mentioned above, the rain actually contributes to the fairness of Distant Planet, by decreasing the viability of camping the slope; overall, it's an excellent balancing measure. As for the monster, it is difficult to imagine being killed by this hazard if you are at all familiar with the stage.

Luigi's Mansion... Oh right you guys don't have metaknights. NM, keep it.

Luigi's Mansion is a very tactically deep stage. A naive approach of running to the centre of the bottom floor the mansion and getting ***** is not the right way to handle it. You don't actually make any argument here.

I mean, jesus christ bro, why don't you put in The Summit or Rumble Falls while you're at it?

The Summit is broken because it has a loop. Rumble Falls is actually fair and I would support it being a counterpick. It's really no different in spirit from Rainbow Cruise, which is always allowed.

There's a reason why TOs ban these maps. Not because they're "gay", but because they have unfair advantages to characters, and the random elements risk upsetting a match that should be based on player skill, but luck of the map effects.

Unfortunately, the reason for banning most of these stages has little to do with their being broken, and you haven't provided any arguments otherwise.

 

[Alphicans]

this tourney needs moar legal planking, and moar halberd for starter.

*edit*

@ Colin: have fun placing when a d3 CPs you to Distant planet, or yoshi pipes.

@ T-Block: Pirate ship doesn't have random elements that affect gameplay? The cannons? The catapult, the LOW GRAVITY in certain intervals?

Pictochat doesn't have random elements that affect gameplay? Like... everything that spawns into that map?

How about Green Greens? with falling blocks that can turn out to be bombs or the wind which can gimp last ditch recoveries?

Or PS2 with dreaded Low gravity, tread mills, etc.

Distant planet, with random rainstorms that make one side of the map unplayable, and the random monster-gay-thing that can kill on the opposite side of the map?

Luigi's Mansion... Oh right you guys don't have metaknights. NM, keep it.

I mean, jesus christ bro, why don't you put in The Summit or Rumble Falls while you're at it? There's a reason why TOs ban these maps. Not because they're "gay", but because they have unfair advantages to characters, and the random elements risk upsetting a match that should be based on player skill, but luck of the map effects.

I lose more respect for you every post you make. You're extremely ill informed and make no real argument. Read Colin's post please, there's no point repeating everything he said. We have no SBR certified banned stages on this list, only the ones from counter/banned. We're doing nothing incredibly outlandish or stupid, we're just experimenting with what we think could be fair.

 

[victra♥]

I love Colin so much.

So much.

 

[Alphicans]

Pirateship's water camping is a serious threat to the stage. I am really not sure if it should be CP :\. Other than that, it's a good stage.

-EDIT-

Also Hanenbow in doubles is iffy. MK is pretty hax on that stage, and although that doesn't necessarily warrant a ban, the stage already is under the gun for being a banned stage, so that just might put it over the edge.

Yoshi's pipes isn't nearly as good for snake as I initially thought. The slope makes it hard for snake to get the grab, D3 can't cg most characters up the slope, falco will have a hard time making it all the way to the blast zone (etc). We never really tested how powerful planking in the middle two ledges is, but with a ledge grab limit, I don't see how this is a big deal.

Distantplanet is fine I think. It offers characters (like yoshi) a really good opportunity to do well, and even even the odds up against higher tiered characters.

Green greens' bombs are actually more of a threat than I thought. Most of the kills Mike/I got were from bombs. The ceiling isn't THAT low, but the sides are ridiculous. This one could easily be a ban, but I am not fully convinced.

Luigi's mansion is fine, you just have to have a good strategy going into the game. MK definitely does well there, so I am not sure if we want another good stage for MK, but other characters do good there, so it kind of balances out.

PS2 is absolutely fine. Nothing else has to be said. PS1 on the other hand... I am not sure if it should be a neutral :\. The windmill is actually a really big deal, you can camp in there for the whole time, and you can live forever and deal a lot of damage. We'll try it and see.

Halberd is a good neutral I think. Although the hazards are there, they pose a very little threat. It gives no character an advantage, and after talking with Mike, it's probably more neutral than FD.

These are my thoughts after playing smash with Mike/Jake/Jason/Ash today.

 

[Iliad]

Colin, gg.

The fact of the matter however is, any and all random elements are frowned upon in a game that's intent is based around skill being the deciding factor and not luck. In an ideal situation (technically speaking) we would all be playing on battlefield or final D, but due to advantages/disadvantages in matchups counter picking maps come into play. However, that being said. We should still strive for as little random element as we can manage. Hence less hostile stage events, less altered physics, and so on. Which is why every single one of those maps listed, SHOULD be banned.

You could argue that each of those stages can easily be traversed without the map itself harming you. But that train of thought would allow me to argue that you should have items in tournament play. Sure they're random in both appearance and affect, but if you're good, you can avoid them or grab them first, right?

/swordgard

 

[Alphicans]

In regards to items, it's more of that they change the game completely. We're not just learning characters and stages, we're now learning how to use each item to it's fullest potential. It does add some dimension to the game, but it adds too much BS (lol).

 

[Frio]

Items will just pop the *** out of no where and pwn you. You know when/where **** will happen on stages. I don't want no smash balls moseying on in beside mah opponent.

 

[T-block]

It's actually not like adding items in at all... I believe adding items would fall under the "so random they cause inconsistent results" issue, due to how powerful they are and how their spawn locations are random.

Iliad, I don't really have to say anything after what Colin posted. I appreciate you giving your opinion, but really... you should get your facts straight before you come in here with such a condescending attitude. I mean...arguing that Dedede is broken on Yoshi's Pipes when chaingrabbing is actually less effective on that stage? Come on -_- We've put a lot of thought into this, and I'd like to think we know what we're doing. A lot of (respected) people on these boards actually support the same stance on these stages - it's not just our region being silly.

I wanna re-emphasize that stages should only be banned for random elements if they produce inconsistent results, or as Colin put it "non-negligible variance in the outcome of matches". Tyler, I'll admit Port Town Aero Dive does come close to this, but I think the presence of safe zones in each transformation saves this stage. However, after playing it today in doubles, I do feel that the results on this stage are too random in doubles. I know some other people have brought up that it should be banned in doubles, so unless anyone has any objections, I'm gonna make it legal in singles only.

As for my thoughts on the other stages after playing today, I think Yoshi's Pipes is fine. Falco can't CG, Yoshis can't grab release, D3 can't chain grab most of the cast. Snake camping on either side is not as good as I feared it might be, which is good. We only have to test if Pikachu can CG all the way up the slope, and if he can't I'm fairly sure this stage will remain legal. Luke tried to show me that MK is too good on Luigi's Mansion, but I'm not convinced. I played PT, and even Charizard (who gets wrecked by Tornado even on normal stages) was doing all right. I lost with Luke at one stock 80-ish percent. If you refuse to break the house, you really have no right to be complaining about Olimar or MK there =\ We had no problems on Distant Planet either. The rain and the presence of the pellet items makes camping the end of the slope bearable. Jake took like 30% from one of the pellets when he tried to sit under there and throw eggs. It's still an effective strategy, but not unbeatable. I'm calling it now - if anyone is gonna show that this stage is broken, it's gonna be by abusing the small "circle".

Luke, we only got hit by the bombs on Green Greens because we were being stupid >_> I mean...they weren't the most serious of matches lol. We didn't play very many serious matches on Green Greens, but I maintain that it is easily CP-worthy. Remember that it's one of the very few stages that could be considered bad for MK ;D

 

[Kuraudo]

Colin is awesome.

...

I still scoff at the idea of Halberd being a neutral stage, however. XD I've given all of my reasonings anyway so that's beating a dead horse. I'm looking forward to an expansion in our region and differences in our metagame when utilizing more stages!

I can't wait! ^^

 

[ChaosDrifter]

Colin, gg.

The fact of the matter however is, any and all random elements are frowned upon in a game that's intent is based around skill being the deciding factor and not luck. In an ideal situation (technically speaking) we would all be playing on battlefield or final D, but due to advantages/disadvantages in matchups counter picking maps come into play. However, that being said. We should still strive for as little random element as we can manage. Hence less hostile stage events, less altered physics, and so on. Which is why every single one of those maps listed, SHOULD be banned.

You could argue that each of those stages can easily be traversed without the map itself harming you. But that train of thought would allow me to argue that you should have items in tournament play. Sure they're random in both appearance and affect, but if you're good, you can avoid them or grab them first, right?

/swordgard

I don't think i would consider things like PS2's low gravity or halberd's weapons random. You know the stuff is there and you can easily see it coming. It takes skill to make use of those things against ur opponent. I don't see why you consider these things 'random'.

 

[Limeee]

Halberds weapons you can see coming in the background which makes being random not a big deal. Ganondorf is nearly unplayable on PS2 (lol) and i don't like green greens because the bombs kill early and randomly, easy camping and the sides are very dumb too.

 

[x After Dawn x]

ps1 is a terrible starter, mike.

there are walls everywhere in every transformation except the grass one in brawl. many characters have infinites; the walls and corners create caves of life; there is stalling when some of the transformations are up. I'm guessing that you probably thought it was legit cause it was a starter in melee, but...it's way different in each game

for one, the windmill isn't solid in melee. secondly...the characters are bigger in brawl. I don't know how that's supposed to affect anything, but for some reason it just feels like it does. maybe it's because they're more susceptible to being hit into walls and not living as a result. I also forgot to mention there's that stupid thing on the right side that prevents rolling and stuff during the rock transformation; I personally don't have a huge problem with it, but I know luke does because it ****s up edgeguarding. not to mention the only infinites in the corners in melee are fox's shine, cause everything else is easily DI'able. and last, it's worth noting that the stage isn't even a starter in the new melee back room stage list for melee cause of people camping and waiting out the rock transformation (and less often, the fire one).

so yeah, sorry for comparing it to melee, I'm just showing why the stage works completely different in both games, and just because it is / used to be a starter in melee, doesn't necessarily mean it should be for brawl.

 

[DTP]

Having it as an option doesn't necessarily make a huge difference.

If you don't want to go to PS1 then strike it.

 

[x After Dawn x]

You are forgetting the point of a starter.

It's supposed to be an OVERALL fair stage that doesn't necessarily have to be striked unless you have a dispreference or a mild disadvantage on it.

If it's an unfair stage in the first place, not just for a single character, then it shouldn't be a starter at all.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

It's overall more fair than Final Destination. If you remove PS1, then I'd say removing FD is only fair.

 

[Alphicans]

Lol Mr.Escalator? But yeah FD is actually just as imbalanced as both halberd and PS1.

 

[DTP]

Who exactly does it give a huge advantage to?
I really don't know.


Honestly, I think FD creates more of an unfair advantage than PS1 when it comes to certain characters.

EDIT: What they said......

 

[Alphicans]

PS1 is a good stage for D3, and an alright stage for snake. Any character that can do an infinite against a wall has a slight edge on the stage, but it's really hard to pull off and not realistic.

 

[T-block]

Hi Mr. Esc =o

ps1 is a terrible starter, mike.

there are walls everywhere in every transformation except the grass one in brawl. many characters have infinites; the walls and corners create caves of life; there is stalling when some of the transformations are up. I'm guessing that you probably thought it was legit cause it was a starter in melee, but...it's way different in each game

for one, the windmill isn't solid in melee. secondly...the characters are bigger in brawl. I don't know how that's supposed to affect anything, but for some reason it just feels like it does. maybe it's because they're more susceptible to being hit into walls and not living as a result. I also forgot to mention there's that stupid thing on the right side that prevents rolling and stuff during the rock transformation; I personally don't have a huge problem with it, but I know luke does because it ****s up edgeguarding. not to mention the only infinites in the corners in melee are fox's shine, cause everything else is easily DI'able. and last, it's worth noting that the stage isn't even a starter in the new melee back room stage list for melee cause of people camping and waiting out the rock transformation (and less often, the fire one).

so yeah, sorry for comparing it to melee, I'm just showing why the stage works completely different in both games, and just because it is / used to be a starter in melee, doesn't necessarily mean it should be for brawl.

You're guessing I thought it was legit because it was a starter in Melee? Honestly? I almost take offense to that. Almost. Trust me, I know the games are different, and I certainly did not suggest it as a starter just because it was in Melee.

The windmill is the only cave of life effect here - the Fire and Rock transformations definitely do not have an area enclosed enough to be labelled as a cave of life. While I admit the windmill is kind of stupid, if you don't want to subject your match to silly bouncing and any resulting combo strings, you always have the option of moving away from the windmill. The ground underneath it is slightly raised, so avoiding projectiles shouldn't be too much of an issue if your opponent decides to camp under it. As for walls, you'd have to be an idiot to get caught in an infinite in the Rock transformation, so I consider that a non-issue. It's slightly easier in the Fire transformation, but the platform configuration definitely gives you enough room to avoid any sort of wall lock/infinite. Overall, it's a good stage for D3 because of the threat of wall infinites, but the advantage isn't overwhelming by any means.

And, as so many people have brought up before me, FD is less fair than PS1. How many characters have PS1 as their best stage? How many characters have FD as their best stage?

 

[Frio]

The only stages that we should actualy play on are FD and Halberd. Nice flat stages and one with a low roof. Seems pretty fair to me.

 

[Kuraudo]

Alright. This is my list of neutrals. At least, imo.

wait, nvm. there's no real point anyway. XD;

 

[Solaris1110]

I have no problem with PS1. Teching, bouncing around, camping and walljumping are all facets of the game, and imo are just as much as part of the game as anything else. The windmill and all the other little quirks magnify certain facets more than others, allowing a different scope of variety and creativity on the player's part.

 

[Alphicans]

Alright. This is my list of neutrals. At least, imo.

wait, nvm. there's no real point anyway. XD;

I don't see why there would be no point. Input from everyone is being considered, unless they bring up a poor argument of if their argument is very uneducated.

 

[Nelo Vergil]

I shall bring the best arguement of all. Data

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259858

Data and input shall be up in a few days Im sure

 

[Kuraudo]

I don't see why there would be no point. Input from everyone is being considered, unless they bring up a poor argument of if their argument is very uneducated.

Nah. I've already brought up my points with Mike, and I'm certain he's relayed to you as well. Though my points are valid, there's also points that Mike and you can make for the likes of Halberd too; and as one who is organizing the tournaments, I have to respect the hosts and their decisions, after all. I got no gripes.

Anything I could say now would be me repeating myself.

That's all.

...

That being said, FD is about as fair as they come. I could go on and on, but, I'd rather not after the little ****fest on that one FD CP stage with Overswarm and crap.

 

[Nelo Vergil]

To good, this is mad RPS' skills