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Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

Pink Reaper

Pink Reaper

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Jack Kieser said:
I'll say this; the misunderstanding RDK and I had previously was because I (erroniously) chose to use analogies including non-competitive aspects of the games, and the fact that the analogies had these no-competitive things in them (like SSE, for instance) clouded RDK's ability to see the meaning behind the analogy. So that was (partially) my bad. Part of why I did that, though, was because I recognize that there isn't anything that Brawl has (competitively) that Melee doesn't have. You can't build an analogy in which there is a single aspect of Brawl's game that's 'better' than Melee's (not that I ever felt you needed to; again, I'm the one advocating that sometimes people purposefully look for inferiority).

I did, however, find an analogy that might better explain to you why someone would choose Brawl over Melee.

I was watching my roomate Slingblade (he's a lurker here) play 'Avalancha' on GH3 last night. Slingblade can play real guitar, and do so well. He can actually play most of the songs in GH3 on a real guitar, but he regularly chooses to play GH instead of play real guitar. Why would someone restrict himself to 5 buttons and a stum bar when he could easily choose tons of frets on 6 strings with harmonics, bends, slides, whammy, etc.? Simply because sometimes he's looking for that watered down version. Sometimes, the simpler aspects of GH are just more appealing and more fun than all the complicatedness of playing real guitar.

So, maybe people choose to play Brawl (knowing FULL WELL that Melee is a more technical, etc. game) because that is the experience they are looking for. Now the question I'd like to postulate is this: is this wrong to do, and does that make people lesser for doing so?
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Your analogy still has a slight problem Jack in that your friend still has the ability to play a real Guitar(That plus you attempted to compare GH to a real guitar, thats like comparing Medal Of Honor on the Wii to shooting a real gun >_>) He has chosen GH AFTER having learned the guitar, knowing full well that he can still go back and play a real guitar any time he wants. Most people who come to these boards join having never played Melee(competitively speaking) and having never made the choice and yet STILL insist that Brawl is better.
 
R

RDK

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Nothing is wrong when it comes to opinion. But my question was about Brawl within the realm of competitivity. If you prefer Brawl to Melee as a competitive fighter, that's completely your perogative, and I won't call you an ignoramus for that. I will, however, strongly disagree with your opinion and ask why you feel this way.
 
Jack Kieser

Jack Kieser

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Pink Reaper said:
Your analogy still has a slight problem Jack in that your friend still has the ability to play a real Guitar(That plus you attempted to compare GH to a real guitar, thats like comparing Medal Of Honor on the Wii to shooting a real gun >_>) He has chosen GH AFTER having learned the guitar, knowing full well that he can still go back and play a real guitar any time he wants. Most people who come to these boards join having never played Melee(competitively speaking) and having never made the choice and yet STILL insist that Brawl is better.
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How about this. I can't play real guitar. I've watched him play, though, and I know based on what I enjoy in a musical experience (I was a choral singer since 5th grade) that I would only frustrate myself learning a real guitar. I choose to play GH instead of learning guitar because it more closely mimics what I'm looking for in a musical experience (simplicity, mainly). Is there anything wrong with that? Basically, is there anything wrong with choosing not to experience something simply because you don't have the desire to, even if your preconceived notions of that thing are incomplete?

Oh, and I know that the two don't compare. But, they are close enough for people to make a connection (after all, one is a simulation of the other for a reason).
 
Mardyke

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RDK said:
Sure it is. What's not okay with me is when people ignore logic and don't employ common sense in their arguments.



I wasn't referring to your personal preferences at all. When I did attack your intelligence, it was because you said nonsensical and, frankly, noobish things about Brawl being just as competitively-centered as Melee.

I won't attack you because you disagree with me on something founded in compelete opinion. I will, however, get annoyed when you don't employ logic where logic is needed.
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What are you talking about? I went back to Melee, then I went back through Brawl, I watched the two thoroughly for what I liked and didn't like, and I was able to pick a preference. I said nothing else in that quote you chose to comment on. What's illogical about that??
I'm sorry, but it'd help if it were better cleared up where you're coming from.

I put people down because said people are being idiots.
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Haven't you heard? Everyone's an idiot. :D



I've stated in just about every post I've made in the past 5 pages that the question was in regards to the competitive merit of the game, not the aesthetics. I can go back and quote myself if you wish. Learn to read.
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Funny: I don't remember concerning you at all in the post I made at you in any aspect. I could have sworn I was concerning the people who I saw that said pro-Brawl players (usually?) don't give a reason for why they like Brawl more than Melee; a question I'm not sure you ever asked. So yeah, learn to read.

Both you and Kieser kept talking about opinions on Brawl, when, from the start of this discussion, I was talking about it's competitive nature. And you have the balls to berate me for being off-topic? WTF
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The start of this discussion with you, let it be clear. Not everyone else in the thread: I know you weren't the one I was addressing originally. Because you're not the only one trying to say something.
 
GofG

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Mardyke, this thread is about which game is more competitive. It is irrelevant which one you "like" more, so stop finding tiny imperfections in what RDK is saying and either leave or stop segueing the argument into whether or not RDK misspoke.
 
E

ElvenKing

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Mardyke, I'm guessing this is the post you originally responding to about Brawl players not giving reasons on why they like it better.

I think OP needs to clarify what he means, does he mean that the brawl players haven't given a good reason to why their opinion of liking Brawl is a good one, or does he mean they haven't given a good reason on why Brawl is better for competitive gaming than Melee.

There may be a great misunderstanding here.
 
Greenstreet

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Jack Kieser said:
How about this. I can't play real guitar. I've watched him play, though, and I know based on what I enjoy in a musical experience (I was a choral singer since 5th grade) that I would only frustrate myself learning a real guitar. I choose to play GH instead of learning guitar because it more closely mimics what I'm looking for in a musical experience (simplicity, mainly). Is there anything wrong with that? Basically, is there anything wrong with choosing not to experience something simply because you don't have the desire to, even if your preconceived notions of that thing are incomplete?

Oh, and I know that the two don't compare. But, they are close enough for people to make a connection (after all, one is a simulation of the other for a reason).
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I would frustrate myself if I tried to run as fast as Sonic. So I play brawl instead.

:)
 
E

ElvenKing

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Eternal phoenix Fire said:
Melee players have given their reasons for disliking Brawl multiple times. Brawl players have not given a reason why they dislike said game, and the few that do merely cling to stereotypes as their main argument. I would love to see a Brawl supporter say they like Brawl more than Melee without the "Cuz I say so" attitude, or the half ***** "Melee 2.0" debate.
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All that's clear from that is that the OP doesn't think Brawl players haven't given a reason for disliking Melee, which is wrong because there have been many posts by Brawl players that have given reasons on why they like Brawl better.

If however he is saying it in the context of Brawl being better for competitive smash, he is correct because the reasons that Brawl players give for liking Brawl better are invalid when talking about which is better competitively, either because they are directly contrary to it, or because any reason might actually add to competitive smash is completely overpowered by the aspects of the game that are contrary to competitive smash.
 
Mardyke

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ElvenKing said:
There may be a great misunderstanding here.
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That's what I'm thinking. Elven hit the nail on the head from my POV; of course the point of the thread is Sakurai's opinion on competitive play how Brawl fares competitively in comparison to Melee, I never questioned that. But the two posts I gave suggested that Brawl overall was never justified, which struck me out as odd.
 
Fletch

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MeleeLover said:
Now that I've played Azen in melee. I know what melee is all about! He just knows! So from now on, in my opinion, melee is way cooler than brawl. I will from now on play melee competitively.
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Better change your name then. Try to find my suggestion.
 
Mota

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After playing Brawl for a few weeks i had to admit i prefered Melee competivly and casually.
Brawl is still a good and fun game of course, but theres no depth. The gap between Noob and Pro in Brawl is tiny compared to Melee. If an semi-noob player vsed a pro in Brawl they'd obviously lose, but they wouldnt be completly destroyed. Whereas In Melee a semi-noob or even an intermidiate player would be completly screwed over.

I still enjoy and shall to stick to Brawl, but i wished somthings like tripping were removed -__- and the hitstun was a little longer allowing at least some combos.
I could go on but won't.
 
Lord Viper

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I swear, if this thread keeps being bumped I will kill something or one. D:<

All the freaken point's has been made so there's nothing else to say.
 
D

Dustlord

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I think it's ironic that Sakurai took away the depth to make people feel better, but with the depth gone, people who lose will actually feel worse. At least in melee, when you lost, you knew you could try and get better to not lose again. In brawl when you lose, you feel mad because you couldn't do anything about that tripping/landmaster (But with Pit I can almost not get killed by it 100% of the time, or at least not get killed twice by it!).

I like depth in a fighting game, it gives you something to continuously strive for. That's why we played Melee for so long, right? Even though I never learned to wavedash, I still remember playing till 3-4:00 in the morning with my friends. Now their favorite chars from melee are radically weakened, and we just don't feel like using/relearning them. So yeah, even though he tried to make people feel good, he actually made more people sad.

Funny how that works, eh? Maybe if he thinks of that, the next SSB will have some depth to it.

Plus, who hasn't seen that video of Daigo's Ken vs Chun-Li, where he has almost no health and perfectly parries Chun-li's super to take the win? It's stuff like that we want to strive for, so even if we get there just part way we feel good =P. This was an afterthought after I wrote everything else, and I don't feel like taking the time to make it fit the rest of the post.
 
R

RDK

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OLD SKOOL

JUSTIN WOOOONNNNNGGGGGG

OH HE'S SO PRINGLES--WHER YA CURLY MUSTACHE AT

SCOOPS

SCOOPS HAGEN-DAZS

MAKE IT RAIN

OOH HE GOT THE MANGO SENTINAL

**** THE KNICKS

**** THE KNICKS

**** THE KNICKS



Izz Mahvel, baybee.
 
DQP

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i think what sakurai means is that he's trying to bridge the gap between hardcore and casual smashers. That can't be a bad thing, right?
 
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