Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[LOL_Master]

are they making money off of these tags? oh and the samuel l jackson gif...classic

 

[RDK]

This is all they have to do; just listen to Mr. Jackson. But do they do it? No.

Hence, the nice little yelling matches we have here.

 

[Clai]

Obviously what we need is a couple of Melee crews donning Captain Falcon suits and souped-up cars to look like Blue Falcons to knee exactly half of the Brawl tournament directors that can't play Melee, let them on to the truth that Melee is the superior competitive game, and convert them. That way, we can have half the tournaments Brawl, half of them Melee, and the Melee tournaments would be more awesome because of the innate awesomeness of Melee and the fact that the Falcon crews would shout "GERR-AHHHHH!" when they win.

+They should also Falcon Punch the entire MD/VA area for everyone maining Metaknight.

 

[LOL_Master]

brawl is really glitched out, it's insane how lame it is, they took most of their time adding stupid crap like stickers and other shirts that pleases noobs

 

[JrdnS]

brawl is really glitched out, it's insane how lame it is, they took most of their time adding stupid crap like stickers and other shirts that pleases noobs

brawl could be so much better if they didnt waste their time on useless crap like this. they also couldve made online play incredible if they wouldnt have wasted so much time on the SSE.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

brawl is really glitched out, it's insane how lame it is, they took most of their time adding stupid crap like stickers and other shirts that pleases noobs

brawl could be so much better if they didnt waste their time on useless crap like this. they also couldve made online play incredible if they wouldnt have wasted so much time on the SSE.

Unfortunately, I think Sakurai got Brawl just about the way he wanted it, but we chose to dislike his decisions in some cases. The extras pushed back the release date, but I don't think they influenced the actual gameplay.

 

[arrowhead]

Unfortunately, I think Sakurai got Brawl just about the way he wanted it, but we chose to dislike his decisions in some cases. The extras pushed back the release date, but I don't think they influenced the actual gameplay.

we didn't "choose" to dislike it. it's like saying you "chose" to think chocolate tastes good.

and the way sakurai wants brawl is opposite of what the competitive community wants. and seeing that we are the ones that keep the game alive, he made a pretty ******** choice

 

[LOL_Master]

yes.

wayabove10chars

 

[Skler]

Having Melee/Brawl tournaments really doesn't work. A full tournament takes one day, a full major tournament takes about two days. This means normal tournaments would take two days and majors would take four (or three, but three is ok), that wouldn't work at all. Directors have to pick one game, they just have to choose between greatness or more noob attendance. What I see is Brawl tournies bringing in tons of free money (bad players), while melee tournaments bring in less players (although those players are usually very skilled). This isn't a shot at Brawl, it's just what happens.

 

[Adi]

Yup, there's no reason for tourney directors to switch to Melee because Brawl brings in the easy money and attendance.

 

[arrowhead]

Yup, there's no reason for tourney directors to switch to Melee because Brawl brings in the easy money and attendance.

because money and attendance is all tourney directors care about

 

[Skler]

Brawl attendance will drop extremely quickly as players start realizing how crappy the game is and don't feel like giving away money just to get shuttle looped or ftilted a thousand times. Until then Melee is still amazing.

 

[Brookman]

Skler, I suck at melee...


*plays brawl*

 

[Pink Reaper]

Skler, I suck at melee...


*plays SSB64*

Ok, now I can accept it.

 

[fkacyan]

Brawl attendance will drop extremely quickly as players start realizing how crappy the game is and don't feel like giving away money just to get shuttle looped or ftilted a thousand times. Until then Melee is still amazing.

Because said players who lose the repeated shuttle loops will do even better at Melee, a game they've likely never played, and take home money.

Ohwai-

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Melee is not a better game. If melee came after Brawl, we would be disgusted by its relatively difficult controls, poor graphics, and small character roster.

Think of the reverse situation before deciding on an opinion.

 

[Fletch]

Melee is not a better game. If melee came after Brawl, we would be disgusted by its relatively difficult controls, poor graphics, and small character roster.

Think of the reverse situation before deciding on an opinion.

Yes, because Nintendo would release a game like Brawl, then ultimately make a sequel with much worse graphics and less characters.

 

[Corigames]

But we did already, it was called going from 64 to melee. And look what happened.

And how long did you play melee competitively? How well did you do in your state?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Because said players who lose the repeated shuttle loops will do even better at Melee, a game they've likely never played, and take home money.

Ohwai-

XD just what I was thinking

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

But we did already, it was called going from 64 to melee. And look what happened.

And how long did you play melee competitively? How well did you do in your state?

I was kinda crappy at the two Melee tourneys I went to in the Dallas area (Technically three but I don't count one of them >_>) Melee tourneys I attended in Dallas (Probably moreso because of being 12/13 around the 2005-2006 timeframe, and having natural underdeveloped reflexes than just plain bad) And I can still admit Melee so far is proving to be far more superior than Brawl in terms of gameplay. Really it obvious and I wouldn't be all that surprised if the whole scene flip-flopped halfway, even fully back to Melee.


I'd be fine eitherway though, I'm just following whatever game the scene decides to go with lol.

 

[Corigames]

MY point is that I have already been to more Brawl tournaments than most Brawl supporters have been to Melee tournaments. Yet, for some reason, we are suppose to A) give it more time B) get use to it C) go back to Melee

Yet these people didn't even try to participate in both scenes. At least most Melee vets that dislike Brawl do it based off experience and not horrible opinions and rumors. How many new people say that Fox was completely unstoppable and that tiers were the absolute law on who could win a match in tournament play?

It's unfair to say that we are being unfair

 

[EC_Joey]

Melee is not a better game. If melee came after Brawl, we would be disgusted by its relatively difficult controls, poor graphics, and small character roster.

Think of the reverse situation before deciding on an opinion.

Oh wow, ANOTHER recycled argument. Unfortunately this argument is just stupid from the beginning.

If you look at the opposite of this statement, it doesn't hold water. "Since Brawl came after Melee, we are amazed with its simplified controls, good graphics, and large character roster."

Firstly, the controls weren't simplified at all, it is essentially the same as the controls for Melee, unless you decide to customize the controls and/or use the Wiimote/Nunchuck. The graphics? They are better, but most people agree that it's not that great considering that it's supposed to be a next-gen title. Character roster? There's a point in fighting games at which there are too many characters. Brawl is approaching this point with its 35 characters. Melee has a smaller lineup, but 25 is a respectable amount.

Arguing that the reverse situation proves something only applies when your assertions are true.

 

[RDK]

Melee is not a better game. If melee came after Brawl, we would be disgusted by its relatively difficult controls, poor graphics, and small character roster.

Think of the reverse situation before deciding on an opinion.

I'm crossing my fingers in anticipation that you truly think out your arguments before you post in the future. Unfortunately, Variola beat me to the punch.

 

[LOL_Master]

I'm not going to bash the halloween captain, he literally just throws himself out there I guess for some odd reason. Listen man, you constantly argue for brawl, yet has failed, don't you realize that the points you've made, say the biggest one, that brawl is not a worse game than melee, have all been proven negative. The post you just made about looking at melee backwards, im going to try to be on your side with just the tip of my shoe, let's say melee came afterwards and exclude the graphics part, I can gurantee you, the speed and the ability to control the characters prove to be a greater challenge than brawl could ever be, therefore, people will most definitely say melee is a better game.

Also, they would also love the fact that there is no tripping.

 

[Fireblaster]

Because said players who lose the repeated shuttle loops will do even better at Melee, a game they've likely never played, and take home money.

Ohwai-

Nice Try. A new player enters a melee tourney gets his *** combo'd and 5 stock and he'll probably think "Holy **** these guys kick *** I wanna be as good as them". A new player a brawl tourney and loses to a camping defensive top tier with a really simple mind numbing strategy and they go "Man what a bunch of bull****, I lost to something so stupid this game sucks"

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I really don't see how a different physics engine and an increase in defensive play from a previously highly aggressive game shows that one game is more competitive than another.

The engine was messed with, a lot. That can justify not liking the game, but still doesn't show how the game lacks skill or competitiveness.

Randomness - The only random factor when items are turned off are some characters moves, (
Turnips, waddle dees) and tripping. The moves should be known about. If he throws an exploding capsule or Peach pulls out a Bob-omb it's completely fair since thats how the move works. Tripping is a rather annoying event, this is an occurrence however, people should know why it happens. We know why it happens so people should be aware it can happen. It's really rare it would happen when your about to be hit by a Falcon punch or something just a deadly.

Defensive play - This is what I think makes the game less likable to the vetrains. This factor was increased dramatically. Melee was a fast, aggressive game. Teching and combos is something that was greatly favored to be good in that game. Brawl is another story. Hit stun when way down, air dodging and ground dodging doesn't leave you as helpless or vulnerable as it did in Melee. Escaping a combo is much easier in Brawl. This isn't the say combos don't exist in Brawl, I'm not talking about those hold down the A button ones. Shiek, Sonic, Lucario, etc. can combo fairly well, it's more so the rest of the cast has a harder time doing it.

I think it's fair to say what is needed to win in Melee isn't what is needed to win in Brawl. But that doesn't justify claiming one game is less competitive or less skillful. Brawl is still new, it took Melee a while to get an affirmed meta game. It would be better to wait and see rather than whining and complaining how Brawl sucks.

 

[D20]

Brawl has no edgegaurding.

 

[Corigames]

"It would be better to wait and see rather than whining and complaining how Brawl sucks."

But wait how long is what we ask. Do we need to wait 7 years to reach a conclusion? Can we not treat it like any other game where we play for an hour or so and decide then and there that we don't like it? When do we decide that it doesn't suck anymore, if that ever happens?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Brawl has no edgegaurding.

How so?

10question

"It would be better to wait and see rather than whining and complaining how Brawl sucks."

But wait how long is what we ask. Do we need to wait 7 years to reach a conclusion? Can we not treat it like any other game where we play for an hour or so and decide then and there that we don't like it? When do we decide that it doesn't suck anymore, if that ever happens?

You missed the point of that statement. I'm not saying you can't hate Brawl for what was change from Melee to Brawl. I'm saying people shouldn't claim it is a horribly less competitive game when it's been out for three/five months. It's better to wait and see if the competitive circuit sucks rather than using personal hatred for it to say it will.

 

[D20]

How so?

Play Melee for 10 minutes against someone that knows what they are doing and you'll find out.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Play Melee for 10 minutes against someone that knows what they are doing and you'll find out.

It's easier to edgeguard in Melee than it is in Brawl, but not to the point where it's non existent in Brawl.

You can still edgeguard, it's just more difficult due to more characters having better recovery and more floaty like bodies.

 

[RDK]

It's easier to edgeguard in Melee than it is in Brawl, but not to the point where it's non existent in Brawl.

You can still edgeguard, it's just more difficult due to more characters having better recovery and more floaty like bodies.

Every argument you've made so far has been destroyed by just about any of the Melee veterans that know what they're talking about. Brawl is an inferior competitive game--period. Do everyone a favor and READ THE OP for Christ's sake.

 

[Corigames]

More or less your own sake though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

*Yawn*

Because edgeguarding in Melee=/=edgeguarding in Brawl.

You can't prove it's a a more competitive game when that fact is more so based on the competitive circuit than Game play. Game play is involved, but actual competitiveness is determined by individuals trying to win.

 

[RDK]

Because edgeguarding in Melee=/=edgeguarding in Brawl.

Auto-edge snapping is one of the many (emphasis on 'many') reasons Brawl is competitively inferior to Melee. Although I'd love to hear why you think it isn't.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Auto-edge snapping is one of the many (emphasis on 'many') reasons Brawl is competitively inferior to Melee. Although I'd love to hear why you think it isn't.

It allows a long life span and prevents gimp kills. Which has little if anything to compare with an amount of skill or competitiveness.

 

[Zankoku]

Allows a long life span? How much longer of a life span do you need? If you don't kill someone with an edgeguard, you end up helping his recovery most of the time.

 

[RDK]

It allows a long life span and prevents gimp kills. Which has little if anything to compare with an amount of skill or competitiveness.

It has exactly everything to do with amount of skill and competitiveness. Auto-edge snapping is Sakurai's version of dumbing the game down and making it possible for players to stay alive longer so people's feelings don't get hurt.

In Melee, if you were a skilled enough player, you would try and avoid getting edgeguarded so gimping wouldn't happen. Lessening the skill gap just makes the game watered down, I.E., less competitive.

 

[Aesir]

^@ red ryu: Did you get ***** by m2k or something?

 

[Skler]

I'd like to say lol @ everyone who thought my argument was about people who lose to MK and snake winning in Melee. I'm just saying they'll stop going to Brawl tournaments and they just may be exposed to how great Melee is and give it a shot. It's a hell of a lot more fun to lose in Melee then it is to lose (or win) in Brawl.

The thing is most Brawl players never actually played competitive Melee so they don't know what they're missing.

edit: red ryu, snapping to the edge removes the skill of sweetspotting and actually having to plan recoveries out. Now you can just float in while airdodging and snap to the edge from your upB. That isn't hard to do at all, even against a skilled player. In Melee you needed skill to recover, in Brawl you need the L button.

Melee edgeguarding also required tons of skill. You can lose a stock while edgeguarding if you aren't careful, and your opponent can turn the situation around pretty easily. Edgeguarding in Melee is much more difficult then it is in Brawl because of how precise you have to be. In brawl you can throw yourself off the edge, use a bunch of attacks and still make it back (not that you'll have hit the other player, as they probably airdodged through you and snapped to the edge). In Melee you don't have that many chances to fail before being punished.

Brawl edgeguarding sucks compared to Melee.