Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[The Halloween Captain]

picking a game because your favorite character is better in it is silly.

Picking a game because your better at it is not.

 

[EC_Joey]

I have ****ing tried melee, and I am aware of how the **** ATs work, and I know how to ****ing use them, even if I chose not to perfect it. I don't think I'll be going away.

This is a blatant lie. 20 pages ago, several of us had to explain what L-Canceling was to you, and why it was useful.

Behold:

Understand, these are the same people who told me Pikachu doesn't have enough slide to wavedash well, so you may have a point.

Embarasingly, I am also not terribly familiar with L-cancelling. All I know about it is that it is a glitch much like wavedashing, that I don't believe I have ever recognized as match-changing in a player. Is it some kind of dodge to remove ending lag?

You are absolutely correct. You didn't answer my question about L-cancelling, but I am always going to be a Brawl fan, because I was the best at the non-glitch scene in melee.

However, I simply cannot relate to hack tactic users. Since these tactic that I don't like seem to be essentail to Brawl, I am going to leave this thread.

These posts were made less than 2 weeks ago. I highly doubt you've played Melee more than a couple times in between then and now.

 

[RDK]

Its a matter of opinion, I'm sure. I'll admit, I really shouldn't talk about melee. Although, you guys have the most intense posts when I'm around, and the discussion is interesting when I look the dumb***.

I think where we differ the most is our definition of competitive. I like that Brawl can be both offencive and campy, and is not restricted to the single-focus style of melee. Sure, melee looked great, but it was rediculous. 0-death combos, 5 to 10 imputs per second, how could anyone seriously enjoy a game that fast without tormenting themselves for days learning button combinations?

You can play as non-campy as you want, but don't expect to win any tournaments.

 

[Krayn]

I tend to notice this when i debate with my friend whether brawl or melee is more competitive. I always say melee, but they just say that i should give brawl a break, and that its new.

I think the reason why melee is more competetive is because of its quick reaction time. Its techniques that are hard to pull off. And has more general techniques for all chars that opens the door to alot of versatality.

 

[Zankoku]

Halloween Captain: Are you better at it because there's less to differentiate in terms of skill, or are you better at it because the character you used was improved from the previous game? Or is it something else?

Actually, don't answer that. I'm irritated enough by whenever you post as it is.

 

[Clai]

I have ****ing tried melee, and I am aware of how the **** ATs work, and I know how to ****ing use them, even if I chose not to perfect it. I don't think I'll be going away.

Like I said, Jack, the difference between what I consider competitive and what you consider it to be is a matter of opinion. As a long time Pikachu mainer, melee was just painful, partially because of the tiers in practical application with the Falcon chainthrow and Marth's long sword, and partially because I found out about the ATs only a few months after Brawl was announced for December. Since I got immediately better at Smash because of Pika-buffs, especially the one which allowed thunder to pass through high cealings, I am inclined towards Brawl more than melee at this point, although i can recognize MELEE took more technical skill.

I'm too swamped by your massive amount of overbearing posts to go back and figure out: Have you been to a tournament? If the answer is yes, then you must have even less intellignece than I thought for you to be posting complete bull the great majority of the time. If the answer is no, then you haven't tried melee. In fact, you spent this post proving Variola's point: The various Pika-buffs (Thunder, d-smash, etc) have made it easier for you to play it more effectively, and since you don't want to spend time putting more work into getting your Melee Pikachu better, you choose to play Brawl. Fine, go ahead and play it, and stop bashing people Melee players about things that they know a lot more than you do. By the way, I fixed your post.

You know, its ironic Variola, I feel I'm the one trying to set you guys straight half the time.

Seriously- Get out.

 

[EC_Joey]

Picking a game because your better at it is not.

HOLY ****, did he imply that people who prefer Melee over Brawl only think that because they're not as good at Brawl? That's a new argument, I am totally at a loss for words at this unexpected development!

Or, this argument just makes you look even more close-minded and ignorant. You know those Melee pros who use "wave-cheating"? Those are the same ones that are dominating at Brawl right now: PC Chris, Cort, etc.

Leave. kthxbai.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm pretty sure that THC just meant that he was picking Brawl simply because he is better at it than Melee, as opposed to not picking Melee because his character is better in Brawl; even if Pika (for instance) was the same in both games, he'd still like Brawl more because he plays Brawl better than he plays Melee.

At least, that's what I thought he meant.

 

[Zankoku]

Or, he thinks he's better at Brawl because he does better with the same character (Pikachu) than he does in Melee, though some or all of that may have to do with the game engine as well as the character buffs.

 

[Samochan]

Or, he thinks he's better at Brawl because he does better with the same character (Pikachu) than he does in Melee, though some or all of that may have to do with the game engine as well as the character buffs.

The player does not magically become better in either tech or mindgames just cause the switch game. If THC didn't do well with pika on melee cause he lacked skill, it's definitely not cause of his skill that he feels he does better in brawl.

 

[JrdnS]

I am inclined towards Brawl more than melee at this point, although i can recognize Brawl took more technical skill.

dont you mean melee?

 

[EC_Joey]

Seriously, this post is all you need to know about The Halloween Captain.

I rest my case.

 

[RDK]

He does better because in Brawl, you don't half to be half decent to occasionally win matches. Just pick one of the Power 4 and spam / camp / shuttle loop / 1-mile-forward-tilt all over the place.

 

[Samochan]

He does better because in Brawl, you don't half to be half decent to occasionally win matches. Just pick one of the Power 4 and spam / camp / shuttle loop / 1-mile-forward-tilt all over the place.

I played ike vs zss and super armor framed zss's stunner with eruption, fsmash countered forward b from max distance to the kill (leanbacks ftw) and powershielded a roll tossed (glide toss?) suit piece into jab combo. Also repeatedly upsmash countered roll users. Doesn't it make me amazing? ^^

 

[thumbswayup]

Halloween Captain, stop posting.

 

[Ban3]

Halloween Captain, stop posting.

lol 10 charmanders

 

[Proverbs]

Just adding fuel to the fire--Check out my thread 'Momentum Deconfirmed for Brawl'. Just another thing I realized that makes me like Brawl less and less. *disappointment*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

But what he is saying is that some characters don't have the ability to edgegaurd because that requires you to now leave the stage because people auto-sweet spot. This adds more imbalance to an already imbalanced game.

How does that add imbalance? It changes what needs to be done to properly edgeguard. Are they going to airdodge? Predict it, it's not that hard. They will cancel prematurely if they think your going to auto attack when you jump near them. you wait a few frames and then attack.

Brawl requires more mind games. I may even say more than Melee.

"Just because there are no/little exploitable glitches at the moment"
I fail to see what this has to do with the current argument other than now your are submitting yourself to use horrible n00b-like arguments to make your point. There are exploits, it's called ridiculously sized hit-boxes, chain grabbing, footstool hop spiking, banana stun locking, angel stepping, arrow canceling, that crawl maneuver thing, etc. There are plenty of glitches and exploits in this game. Especially so when you look at Snakes ability to approach like a mad man!

People have claimed due to Brawl removing the previous advanced techs and currently lacking some as of late makes it less competitive. I disagree as although people have studied the game and are researching to find something to abuse. New things will be discovered, the lack of them for the moment doesn't mean it lack competitiveness.

If you want to know who is more skilled in Brawl, you find the guy that can play "Character Select" the best. He or she will hold the key to victory in Brawl.

And this is different from other fighting games/Melee how?

This is true, but RDK was talking about when you are attempting to recover AFTER you've already been knocked off the stage. Most inexperienced players think that getting back onto the stage is the same thing as recovering to the edge, so they tend to overshoot the edge because they're afraid of missing the edge and falling to their death. However, more experienced players understand that recovering to the edge is often a safer bet, unless they know that their opponent knows how to edgehog.

Thats nice and dandy for newer players, but I'm trying to explain it from a more competitive perspective. More experienced players should be able to already, Brawl has snapping to make ledge grabbing easier, it's nifty for newer players, but doesn't affect tournament play when people can do the same tactics as before with an increase in difficulty in performing them.

Air dodging requires timing, but if people can see an air dodge coming, why not predict the airdodge and counter act it with either a quicker attack or an attack timed for when the transparent frames end?

I agree that the competitive scene ultimately determines if the game is competitive or not, but the fact is that the competitive scene can NOT determine how competitive the game is compared to Melee. As stated several times before, many competitive Brawl players have never played Melee competitively. As for Metaknight and Pit, you're completely wrong. You see MK players placing consistently high in most tournaments (or is that just because there are so many of them?). MK and Pit's recoveries can be taken advantage of, especially Pit's up-B when he's trying to recover from below.

It can determine it.

The only really difference between Melee and Brawl is that different techniques and skills are required to work with one game compared to another. Power works in Football to rush in with a football, but doesn't help in golf which requires more control to land on the green. Both games are equally competitive thanks to the huge sums of money being spent on each sports/prize money.

It's no different here when comparing Melee and Brawl.

As for the last point about MK and Pit. I was referring to new players being able to learn to recover with their great recoveries, another reason why edge guarding is harder in Brawl, but even if they learn how to recover to a degree, chances are they can't fight for crap.

People say the gap was shortened for skill between newbies and pros. If this was true then tournament standing would be near randomness, lacking consistency.

Making edge guarding harder to do used to be the responsibility of the person recovering, not the game itself. I fail to see how making every character's recovery easier makes the game more competitive. Which of the following situations do you feel is more competitive?
1) A match in which every time someone is knocked off the stage, one player fights to recover without being punished, and the other fights to punish his opponent's recovery.
2) A match in which every time someone is knocked off the stage, one player airdodges projectiles and recovers with ease, while the other shoots projectiles to add more damage, or just waits for his opponent to get back on the stage.

You still have to make your way back to the ledge and grab it. Snapping makes actually touch it easier, thats all.

I never said increasing recovery for the cast made it less competitive, I said it was just easier, no other loaded messages involved.

As for your examples, I'd say both. Both are viable tactics in which both can work in Brawl. Option one is more difficult, but is much more rewarding compared to option two. I'd even say option one is more viable if people learn the timing on air dodges more.

This is advice that should be given to a n00b. If edgeguarding isn't working, adding more damage and then going for the kill is your only option left, because your opponent is going to get back on the stage regardless. The whole point of the game is trying to take a stock off of your opponent, while keeping the damage you take yourself at a minimum. Edgeguarding helps you accomplish this because if successful, you don't need to get your opponent to 175-200% to kill them. Trying to rack up more damage by fighting your opponent on the stage is dangerous because at the same time he can easily rack up damage on you, especially with the lack of hitstun.

I'm saying if edgeguarding as a tactic isn't working so well you need to either,

a.) Learn new ways to edge guard.
b.) Try using mind games
c.) Try something else

If your tactic for edge guarding isn't working, you may need to rethink your strategies and tactics involving it, or try something else. Edgeguarding at eighty wasn't working, go for a higher percent and try again, or just forget it if you can't do it.

 

[Zankoku]

Brawl requires more mind games. I may even say more than Melee.

b.) Try using mind games

Mindgames, people. There's less of them in Brawl, but they solve EVERYTHING!

 

[Corigames]

Brawl requires more mind games. I may even say more than Melee.

No, it's not that Brawl requires more mindgames than Melee, it's just that mindgames are the only thing players have left. they took away everything else.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mindgames, people. There's less of them in Brawl, but they solve EVERYTHING!

Mind games involves players and unpredictability. Brawl has as much if not more than Melee.

No, it's not that Brawl requires more mindgames than Melee, it's just that mindgames are the only thing players have left. they took away everything else.

Brawl tinkered with a lot of things Melee had. They didn't take anything away but the advanced techniques. Which rightfully so were glitches.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Which rightfully so were glitches.

Nooooooooo

 

[Corigames]

Brawl tinkered with a lot of things Melee had. They didn't take anything away but the advanced techniques. Which rightfully so were glitches.

Which, rightfully, added to mindgames.

Along with those was dash dancing, something nearly impossible to do in Brawl. Wavedashing was an exploit that could be used as a mindgame. There was also dash canceling, but that's out of Brawl. The powershield could reflect projectiles, so you could do that and mess with a person who projectile approached. They made it so you auto cancel to the ledge, so now you can't decide to go past it if you want mindgame them.

They did take out a lot, and I probably missed a whole lot more. I didn't touch on may things. No, there aren't more mindgames in Brawl. Are they more important? No, they aren't more important in Brawl. Brawl is just a watered down game with less tech and less ability to go beyond what the developers intended. Just because you can't do as much, doesn't mean the little bit you are doing is now, somehow, better.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Which, rightfully, added to mindgames.

Along with those was dash dancing, something nearly impossible to do in Brawl. Wavedashing was an exploit that could be used as a mindgame. There was also dash canceling, but that's out of Brawl. The powershield could reflect projectiles, so you could do that and mess with a person who projectile approached. They made it so you auto cancel to the ledge, so now you can't decide to go past it if you want mindgame them.

They did take out a lot, and I probably missed a whole lot more. I didn't touch on may things. No, there aren't more mindgames in Brawl. Are they more important? No, they aren't more important in Brawl. Brawl is just a watered down game with less tech and less ability to go beyond what the developers intended. Just because you can't do as much, doesn't mean the little bit you are doing is now, somehow, better.

Developers aren't going to keep glitches in a game when developing a newer version of a game.

It doesn't matter if it was helpful or not on a competitive scale, when redesigning a game you try to fine tune it to be the fighting game you intended as possible.

They didn't do it for Melee from the 64, they sure a heck won't do it from Brawl.

Most fighting games don't even keep previous gliches, why should we expect them to in the first place?

 

[Corigames]

Then why did they take out L-canceling? Something the developers intended to have in the game from the 64 and Melee but took out in Brawl. Why would they do that then?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Then why did they take out L-canceling? Something the developers intended to have in the game from the 64 and Melee but took out in Brawl. Why would they do that then?

ZING.

Looks like he got you, Ryu.

Smooth Criminal

 

[BIG C]

Uhhh cuz z/l cancel was in both of the first games apparently 3rd time's a charm isn't something nintendo believes in anymore.

 

[Aesir]

Brawl tinkered with a lot of things Melee had. They didn't take anything away but the advanced techniques. Which rightfully so were glitches.

First off define a glitch, second point to us which Adv were glitches?

I'll give you wavedashing since I know that'll be the first on your list, but there were far more Adv techs then wavedashing.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Developers aren't going to keep glitches in a game when developing a newer version of a game.

It doesn't matter if it was helpful or not on a competitive scale, when redesigning a game you try to fine tune it to be the fighting game you intended as possible.

They didn't do it for Melee from the 64, they sure a heck won't do it from Brawl.

Most fighting games don't even keep previous gliches, why should we expect them to in the first place?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Then why did they take out L-canceling? Something the developers intended to have in the game from the 64 and Melee but took out in Brawl. Why would they do that then?

Developers do remove some things they have previously added into games, like how most clone characters were removed from Brawl. It's up to them in this case if they wish to keep it or not.

This is done with many other fighting games, Brawl is no exception.

First off define a glitch, second point to us which Adv were glitches?

I'll give you wavedashing since I know that'll be the first on your list, but there were far more Adv techs then wavedashing.

A computer glitch is the failure of a system, usually containing a computing device, to complete its functions or to perform them properly. It frequently refers to an error which is not detected at the time it occurs but shows up later in data errors or incorrect human decisions

In which case Washdashing, moonwalking, Yoyosticking, all apply.

However, edge guarding, short hopping, etc. are not glitched techs and therefore can have some expectancy to return.

 

[Corigames]

Developers do remove some things they have previously added into games, like how most clone characters were removed from Brawl. It's up to them in this case if they wish to keep it or not.

This is done with many other fighting games, Brawl is no exception.

No, it's not that Brawl requires more mindgames than Melee, it's just that mindgames are the only thing players have left. They took away everything else.

So they took away everything, just like I said a page ago. I'm glad we had this productive discussion. It only took a page or two.,

 

[Aesir]

A computer glitch is the failure of a system, usually containing a computing device, to complete its functions or to perform them properly. It frequently refers to an error which is not detected at the time it occurs but shows up later in data errors or incorrect human decisions

In which case Washdashing, moonwalking, Yoyosticking, all apply.

sooooo 3 glitches? out of I wanna say 30 adv techs? thats 1 glitch for every 10 advance tech.

 

[Fletch]

A computer glitch is the failure of a system, usually containing a computing device, to complete its functions or to perform them properly. It frequently refers to an error which is not detected at the time it occurs but shows up later in data errors or incorrect human decisions

In which case Washdashing, moonwalking, Yoyosticking, all apply.

However, edge guarding, short hopping, etc. are not glitched techs and therefore can have some expectancy to return.

Whether they are glitches or not is debatable, but who cares when they add countless depth to the game. Call them glitches all you want, but they made Melee infinitely more deep and exciting.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So they took away everything, just like I said a page ago. I'm glad we had this productive discussion. It only took a page or two.,

Gliches =/= everything/all advanced techs

sooooo 3 glitches? out of I wanna say 30 adv techs? thats 1 glitch for every 10 advance tech.

There is more, I just named a few off the top of my head. There is Wobbling, dash cancel grabbing, Freezing Glitch. A lot of glitch techs involved wave dashing to some extent being the moist abused Glitch in Brawl.

You can use them, but due to the nature of glitches being unintended events from accidental programing, don't expect them to return in a sequel.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm still not following how wavedashing is a glitch. You jump, okay. You air-dodge into the ground, okay. You slide along the ground due to the air-dodge momentum, okay. Where's the unintended part here? The fact that gamers decided to use this momentum to their advantage?

How is Wobbles a glitch? Isn't boost grabbing still in Brawl? Hell, didn't they expand on that by allowing boost upsmashes? I'm so confused here...

 

[Corigames]

Too bad wobbling made it back, they added in bunches of chain grabs, and increased the ease of power shielding. They took out everything advanced and left us with NOTHING. What have they added to the gameplay of Brawl? Gliding and crawling? That's about it. You can say the tether, but that was in Melee with Link and Samus... BUT BETTER!!!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So they took away everything, just like I said a page ago. I'm glad we had this productive discussion. It only took a page or two.,

Gliches =/= everything/all advanced techs

sooooo 3 glitches? out of I wanna say 30 adv techs? thats 1 glitch for every 10 advance tech.

There is more, I just named a few off the top of my head. There is Wobbling, dash cancel grabbing, Freezing Glitch. A lot of glitch techs involved wave dashing to some extent being the moist abused Glitch in Brawl.

You can use them, but due to the nature of glitches being unintended events from accidental programing, don't expect them to return in a sequel.

Whether they are glitches or not is debatable, but who cares when they add countless depth to the game. Call them glitches all you want, but they made Melee infinitely more deep and exciting.

It allowed creativity, I'll give it that, but to say it was immensely full of depth because of it is pushing it.

 

[Aesir]

There is more, I just named a few off the top of my head. There is Wobbling, dash cancel grabbing, Freezing Glitch. A lot of glitch techs involved wave dashing to some extent being the moist abused Glitch in Brawl.

You can use them, but due to the nature of glitches being unintended events from accidental programing, don't expect them to return in a sequel.

lulz

first off prove those are all glitches.

Freeze glitch is an obvious, but how do you know those are all glitches?

Your definition of glitch is way to broad of a term and can apply to anything. The fact remains though they removed everything, and didn't accommodate for any of the losses.

Brawl boils down to just mind games because thats all there is, thats not exactly a game that screams competitive in my book.

The only thing promising is the DJ renewal technique in brawl which may become big but only certain characters are going to benefit from this.

Ex: Ganon he'll be able to attack and not get *****. And lucario who will be able to follow up even better then he already could have.

Other then that most of the techs don't really add anything deeper and it's most likely going to stagnate. A wall will reach and we'll all be like Gandolf in the hobbit's house.

 

[Corigames]

With what Aesir was saying:

But then to that extent, that's just making Brawl supporters into exactly what Melee vets are. People who are all for Brawl sometimes talk about how Melee was a glitch game and all about exploiting the system and blah blah. Then, every time someone finds something new in Brawl, those same people run over to them and cheer and clap like it's Christmas!

Anyone can admit that they want to progress Brawl's competitive play, but how are we going to do that without glitches or exploits? It's not reasonable! The way to make it more is to find more. We didn't gain more gameplay by removing all the glitches, exploits, and techs from Melee without adding anything new. That doesn't equate.

 

[Teczer0]

Why is WD a "Glitch"

I always thought of WD is just the result of us abusing our knowledge of the game's physics.