Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[RDK]

I wish people would stop thinking your always going to trip into an Ike Fsmash or even that Tripping will always alter the game immensely if you do it once in a match.

Just the other day during friendlies (thank God it wasn't during the actual tournament) I tripped THREE times in one match, all of which I was going in to punish the opponent's attack lag. That's THREE times I could have shaved a stock off the opponent, but I tripped at exactly the worst moment possible.

It doesn't seem likely that it's going to happen until it happens to you. And trust me, when it does, and it actually matters, you're going to feel frustrated.

 

[Corigames]

Well I hate it when people say that it DOESN'T affect you that much. I got knocked out of a tournament because of it. You can't say that isn't an affect! Plus, there are the people who say it balances out because, "LOL, wuz gonna do sumpthin' but it wood haff gotted me kill. I trippeded instead thow and et safed my live!"

(You have no clue how hard it was for me to type that out)

If you were going to get killed because of your own stupidity, you should. You shouldn't be saved by the game, as well as killed by it. Players should kill players.

 

[Pink Reaper]

You still spelled "died" wrong, even with the edit.

 

[Corigames]

I have no clue what you are talking about >_>

 

[LOL_Master]

so this just further proves that brawl is stupid...

 

[Corigames]

so this just further proves that brawl is stupid...

Wait, you can further prove it? i thought it's existence alone...

Oh well, it's SCIENCE!

 

[LOL_Master]

lewllllllllllllllll

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well, it's hard to tell me to stop thinking that when:

*ahem*

I died in my first tournament match EVER from an Ike forward smash, off the side, and only at %55!!!!!!


You can't tell me to not think that when my thoughts are based off of my memories.

Just the other day during friendlies (thank God it wasn't during the actual tournament) I tripped THREE times in one match, all of which I was going in to punish the opponent's attack lag. That's THREE times I could have shaved a stock off the opponent, but I tripped at exactly the worst moment possible.

It doesn't seem likely that it's going to happen until it happens to you. And trust me, when it does, and it actually matters, you're going to feel frustrated.

Tripping from running/forward smashing has pissed me off as well, it's a stupid implement into the game. It should have been reserved for ice, bananas, and some tilts.

But people blow it way out of proportion. Your not always going to die from a Fsmash you run into, it can happen at horrible times, but the frequency of it happening is extremely small.

Can it happen? Yes. Is it going to happen at a rate which it will ruin 3% or more of your matches? No.

 

[Corigames]

HEY, *** hole. That second quote wasn't me. Why don't you go grab the original poster of that quote and take my name off of it. I don't like it when people put words into my mouth.

 

[RDK]

HEY, *** hole. That second quote wasn't me. Why don't you go grab the original poster of that quote and take my name off of it. I don't like it when people put words into my mouth.

But they were good words that bolstered your point. :D

 

[Aesir]

Jesus RDK do you ever sleep man? LOL

I'm going to play Devils advocate and go pro brawl for the next 5 mins.

One of the biggest arguments against brawl is it's focus on turtling (lol gaw). However how is this any different then in melee? In melee we camped, spaced and projectile spammed.

How is it any different now? is because of the complete lack of combos? were combos really the means to end for broken turtling stratagies?

Whats happening in brawl is no different then what happened in melee people camped in melee, through projectiles and spaced to their hearts content. The only difference is melee was faster.

 

[Corigames]

No, in melee you were punished for camping. People could do that without having to resort to the top two characters to do it too!

And how many people won tournaments by camping? I don't remember any. I think that's also why certain stages were banned, like Hyrule temple. Jeeze that place.

And I don't appreciate the "we camped, spaced and projectile spammed"
...
Especially the "we"

 

[Aesir]

Actually yes we did space. (marth) Projectile spam ( falco) and camped (sheik)

those characters are just the obvious ones.


Camping was a big part of melee you weren't punished for camping you were punished for camping bad. If you camped correctly in melee chances are you won.

 

[Corigames]

NO, it wasn't. If you camped against a Falco or Sheik, you would be hammered down with projectiles as they approached you into their attacks. That's right, shot projectiles INTO doing other things. Not camping. Marth didn't spam. He had to move forward with Fairs and make sure to space them right. The process in approaching took a while, because he NEEDED to get the right spacing. If not, it could really mess him up. I don't know a shiek that would camp with her excellent tilts, needles, and grabs. There's no reason to.

I played Samus at a very good level and not even I could camp in a fight! And when facing good players, they know how to powershield and reflect those missiles back, something you can't do in Brawl if I may point out.

Any style could be punished if you knew what you were doing. IF they were defensive, you could break that. If they were offensive, you could interrupt them. If they camped, you could burn their tent to the ground. If they held torches of Major Tent Burning, you could build a better tent. That's what was glorious. If you played your style well, you could do well. It's just that people could see through certain styles better, and people didn't push camping and spamming far. The exact opposite is true for Brawl. Certain styles are unpunished right now. I'm willing to admit that it is possible to change that, but the over powered style of camping or spamming is just too great.

That is all.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Actually yes we did space. (marth) Projectile spam ( falco) and camped (sheik)

those characters are just the obvious ones.


Camping was a big part of melee you weren't punished for camping you were punished for camping bad. If you camped correctly in melee chances are you won.

Aesir, thats not Camping(well, ok, sheik camps kind of >_>) Falco's laser spam could be used for either advancing OR defending, it's just a form of control, not really a form of camping. And keeping opponents at a distance with marth is sort of the whole point of his tipper(lolpun) isn't it? Obviously if you were playing as ROY you'd be much closer because of the extreme low range on his sweet spot. Thats not camping, its just smart play.

If you want to see REAL melee camping you can watch this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

HEY, *** hole. That second quote wasn't me. Why don't you go grab the original poster of that quote and take my name off of it. I don't like it when people put words into my mouth.

...whoops.

Aesir, thats not Camping(well, ok, sheik camps kind of >_>) Falco's laser spam could be used for either advancing OR defending, it's just a form of control, not really a form of camping. And keeping opponents at a distance with marth is sort of the whole point of his tipper(lolpun) isn't it? Obviously if you were playing as ROY you'd be much closer because of the extreme low range on his sweet spot. Thats not camping, its just smart play.

If you want to see REAL Melee camping you can watch this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg

God, that reminds me of that that kid I fought at game stop.

He would get really happen with baster shots no matter who I was. The funny thing about fighting was that he knew how to use advanced techs but he didn't know how to recover for crap.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Of course you can be campy in Melee, it's a powerful tactic in Melee. Falco can run around and shl and if he's smart, he won't get punished for it. The opponent is forced to approach, just like we're seeing it in Brawl.

Marth can camp. Just hang around the ledge and space fairs and gimp your opponent when he approaches. Obviously this only works against certain characters, but against those that it does not, you have a different type of camping at your disposal. You can camp in their face. Just dash dance close to them. If they do a move, dash out of their range and pivot fsmash. If they try to shoot a projectile, run up and grab them. Until that happens, keep dash dancing and camping fairs in their face. They'll be scared to use projectiles, but they'll also be scared to attack. Which means they too will do something safe like dash dancing and moving around so they don't become predictable.

All of the top tiers excelled at camping in Melee. And here's another shock: camping is an art. Do you know what seperates Forward's lasers from some random scrubs'? It sure isn't the speed at which they fire them. It's how they're placed, how they're spaced, when to use what lasers, when to openly retreat and when to feign an approach. It's intricacy squared. The same thing applies to nearly every character. The truth is, camping isn't easy. Camping is not some method that scrubs pick up so they stand a chance at beating better players. It's another way to play, another option that you can pull out whenever you want it.

The reason people don't like camping in Brawl is because of the little punishment that you get from it. If you mess up camping in Melee you're dead, as Spam so kindly explained in a comment to that Pokefloats video. In Brawl, you just get hit once and go straight back to camping.

Thankfully, there are exceptions to this in Brawl. Let's take Marth, my main. He completely shuts down shields, thanks to the deadly risk of a broken shield at the hands of the shieldbreaker. If you hit someone's shield, all it takes is one more jab and the shield is gone, meaning the opponent is dead. So, once you hit peoples' shields a couple of times, they're going to be scared. If they use the shield, their most powerful option, they're at a great risk. Suddenly, the shield isn't so safe anymore! Since the shield is an extremely important part of camping, all of a sudden, your opponent's camping game is greatly weakened, and he may even consider stopping outright camping.

This is the only reason I even play Brawl anymore.

 

[Skler]

The real problem with Brawl is that camping is by far the best option for so many characters. Yes, Melee was campy if you wanted to play that way, but not camping was just as effective provided you did it right. In Brawl you pretty much camp or lose (unless your playing against a bad player/character). This, in addition to Brawl's camping being some of the most boring **** ever, is why I love Melee so much more.

 

[PolMex23]

Aesir, thats not Camping(well, ok, sheik camps kind of >_>) Falco's laser spam could be used for either advancing OR defending, it's just a form of control, not really a form of camping. And keeping opponents at a distance with marth is sort of the whole point of his tipper(lolpun) isn't it? Obviously if you were playing as ROY you'd be much closer because of the extreme low range on his sweet spot. Thats not camping, its just smart play.

If you want to see REAL melee camping you can watch this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg

ahhaha Spamerer xD xD xD

The real problem with Brawl is that camping is by far the best option for so many characters. Yes, Melee was campy if you wanted to play that way, but not camping was just as effective provided you did it right. In Brawl you pretty much camp or lose (unless your playing against a bad player/character). This, in addition to Brawl's camping being some of the most boring **** ever, is why I love Melee so much more.

Excatamuendo!!!!!!! Still, the tourneys ive been to in Florida, every veteran smasher shuns camping in brawl. Like most of us do.

I can't stand Brawl anymore, like someone said earlier. You seem to play better the slower you think.... Melee was so fasy paced, rewarding and devastating. Just a complete roller coaster of ****!!!!

 

[thumbswayup]

None of you have **** on me. I was playing Brawl with my friend yesterday, I was Sonic and he was Snake. We were at Pirate's Ship, and both of us were on the smaller boat on the far right. Basically, he's on the left of it and I land on the right. He F smashes and I attempted to run up shield it so I could follow it with a grab. I tripped right into it. Dead. At 20 percent. This was 20 seconds into the match. It was so idiotic we stopped the game and saved it, for further proof of how bad Brawl is.

 

[Aesir]

I'm done playing devils advocate now LOL.

it's kind of funny how some of you think melee wasn't camping. LOL

what do falcons do? DD and wait for an opening, sure they don't have to and can win by aggression. But DD camping and waiting for those openings for grabs? by far one of the best options falcon has.

How is it not camping if you're waiting for the opening? now thats just silly.

 

[RDK]

None of you have **** on me. I was playing Brawl with my friend yesterday, I was Sonic and he was Snake. We were at Pirate's Ship, and both of us were on the smaller boat on the far right. Basically, he's on the left of it and I land on the right. He F smashes and I attempted to run up shield it so I could follow it with a grab. I tripped right into it. Dead. At 20 percent. This was 20 seconds into the match. It was so idiotic we stopped the game and saved it, for further proof of how bad Brawl is.

Just hearing that makes me want to punch a baby.

 

[thumbswayup]

Just hearing that makes me want to punch a baby.

I almost threw my controller at the TV. I'm going to upload those 20 seconds at some point.

 

[Reaver197]

It strikes me that there's a difference between sitting back and spamming safe moves, and waiting for an opening.

Also, it also strikes me that a good Falcon player wouldn't resort to just DDing for the sake of waiting for the opponent to mess up, because a good opponent will **** you for it, lol. But DDing for baiting I can see.

 

[Aesir]

Thats all M2k does =(

 

[thumbswayup]

Playing M2k is not even playing Melee. He has control over you the entire match. I remember how I always wanted to play him, and finally got my chance 3 or so months ago. Played him for 30 minutes straight. Every match was a three or four stock. His Marth is godlike, there's really no other way to describe it. On Battlefield, he killed my Sheik in 3 seconds flat when the match started. The timer was on so you could see. He paused the game and burst out laughing.

In case you're wondering how that's possible here's what he did: we each started on top of the platforms on opposing sides. He drops off f airs me, L-cancels the landing so perfectly that it's followed by an immediate f smash which was a tipper. I go flying, he wavedashes to grab the ledge, techs off of it and spikes me. The timer was at 7:57 when I died. So I switched to falcon after that. He four stocks me twice. I switch to fox. He three stocks me, then....another four stock. But this was all back when I was terrible, yeah I've gotten so much better in the last few months it's almost unreal. But one thing is certain, you'll learn more playing against M2k than anyone else.

 

[Reaver197]

M2k is a poopbutt. And he plays Martha.

But, for serious, I really think it's more in the risk and potential of the punishment you can receive in Melee that evens out the sitting back and camping aspect versus Brawl. It's not so much in of the tactics themselves, I guess.

Edit: Ah, sounds rough. Hardest teacher ever, lol.

 

[Aesir]

yeah I was just playing Devils Advocate LOL I never see brawl guys say this so I figured I'd give it a shot LOL.

 

[EC_Joey]

I'd pay him to teach me Marth.

You heard me, M2K!

 

[luigiluck]

don't bash brawl it is a good gamne

 

[Aesir]

Ladies and gentleman I present you our next target. ^

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Obvious troll is obvious.

Luigiluck, please leave the thread if you don't have anything to contribute.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Reaver197]

Lol, that guy could've not posted at a more perfect time after what you said Aesir.

 

[Zankoku]

I find it rather amusing that many of those favoring Melee are better at supporting Brawl than most of the people who favor Brawl.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

That's probably because those players know the faults that Melee has better. Once it comes to arguing for Brawl though, I don't think they'd do much better.

 

[Aesir]

Maybe if I ever fall into the void of autism I'll be arguing pro - brawl, but until then melee4lyf. >_>

 

[thumbswayup]

M2k has Asperger's syndrome and he's the last person who would be pro-brawl.

 

[RDK]

M2k has Asperger's syndrome and he's the last person who would be pro-brawl.

That just means that people who support Brawl have a lower IQ and social standing than people with autism.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

That just means that people who support Brawl have a lower IQ and social standing than people with autism.

You do realize that most autistic people who can communicate are geniouses? "A Beautiful Mind"

 

[thumbswayup]

You do realize that most autistic people who can communicate are geniouses? "A Beautiful Mind"

John Nash suffered from Schizophrenia, not Autism.