Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Wuss]

dude, siamese lizard, chill. This is a forum, and your post was clearly ignorant because you said, "You seem bitter, I don't think you fully grasp the game" when I am pretty sure scar is quite well acquainted with the game, and probably isn't bitter. Not to mention your post (as others said) did absolutely nothing to help this discussion, which is about "The competitiveness of Brawl compared to Melee". Not how "bitter" and "bad" scar is at brawl. I admit I called you dumb, which is mean, but you making ignorant posts doesn't help to disprove that, so make some good posts and maybe I wont think you're dumb as nails.

On topic, I agree with people saying that brawl is less balanced to some extent, but I would argue that it doesn't have that much to do with the competitive nature of a game. The point of competitive play is that, "the better person will win" as scar has said. If better players use worse characters, they should win by this mantra, but there is a scale. Skill over opponent vs how much worse the character they are playing is then tier opponents character. With this scale, better people will with worse characters up to a point. Obviously more balance is good, but up to a point. Brawl being less balanced and less competitive are related, but not directly correlated.

My biggest beef with brawl, is just that it completes lack approach, it infuriates me so much that my friends can more or less just sit there while I attempt to approach, then they just shield grab or override my attempt with stupid MK fair or uair. While this lack of approach doesn't in itself make the game less competitive, it makes it more slow and boring. As I said in my last post, I love watching melee games, but brawl just isn't as exciting.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Man, this sh*t's gone on for so long, I don't even know what topic we're on anymore (it doesn't help that I wasn't able to keep up with SWF for 12 hours).

 

[Twin Dreams]

edit: Why I asked:

My biggest beef with brawl, is just that it completes lack approach, it infuriates me so much that my friends can more or less just sit there while I attempt to approach, then they just shield grab or override my attempt with stupid MK fair or uair. While this lack of approach doesn't in itself make the game less competitive, it makes it more slow and boring. As I said in my last post, I love watching melee games, but brawl just isn't as exciting.

What was the beginning of melee like? (comparatively to brawl?)

I've heard it started out camping for a year or two.

 

[Jack Kieser]

edit: Why I asked:




What was the beginning of melee like? (comparatively to brawl?)

I've heard it started out camping for a year or two.

No, that was completely different. In Melee, people camped competitively. Here, people are just camping like n00bs. It's totally different.

[/sarcasm]

 

[Condor]

@ Condor, corey's first response was a joke, and it made me LOL. Pink Reaper then points out your obvious contradiction in that you actually are sitting here telling us how you're going to go play Brawl... ok well good for you, but you clearly can't do that since you're being roped in by internet discussion. So you're a liar.

actually i am delayed in playing brawl, i am sitting at work bored to death, so i get on here and check it out. and it just so happens that i don't have my wii right now... but if i could play brawl instead i would be doing that.

 

[Spiral]

What was the beginning of melee like? (comparatively to brawl?)

I've heard it started out camping for a year or two.

My thoughts exactly. People are expecting to have full grasp of the game in a couple months, it doesn't work like that. In my experience with games like this, strategies that seem overpowered for the first 6 months are often considered newb strats come 2 years down the road. My best and favorite example of this is raiders in WC3. Everyone said they were garbage, even when the expansion came out. Then suddenly a few players catch on and now everyone is massing raiders.

No, that was completely different. In Melee, people camped competitively. Here, people are just camping like n00bs. It's totally different.

[/sarcasm]

rofl

It just seems to me the easier strat when people aren't comfortable with the characters is to camp and spam projectiles. Once people are adept at their chars I think methods will develop to corner your opponents and close the gap.

 

[Condor]

"Those who know what they're talking about and can have intelligent discussions talk,
Those who don't should just shut up and leave Smashboards." - Yuna, 2008

lol i am flattered that u changed your sig for me, thats kinda cool. OK i'll take a hit and say im unintelligent... So intelligent people talk alot, hmm interesting, that means that politicians, homos, and annoying chicks are intelligent... im glad im not intelligent.

Well w/e this has been quite fun stabbing back at each other, but i think this will get old and im not going to get anywhere on this thread with my point and im definitely not going to convince u guys that brawl is not as bad as u say it is, so have it and enjoy

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok. I'm just going to blatantly attack you now. That line about homos...

What the **** is wrong with you? You most certainly are unintelligent.

Actually, that's an understatement.

STFU and GTFO you ****ing moron.

 

[Jack Kieser]

^--- Agreed.

 

[Skler]

No, that was completely different. In Melee, people camped competitively. Here, people are just camping like n00bs. It's totally different.

[/sarcasm]

In Melee the shorthop wasn't used in tournaments until much later in the scene, there also wasn't a community to pick apart the game from day one. In brawl we have found **** near every useful technique that is allowed by the physics engine, and there is no shield stun. If we find a way to cancel the lag of aerials (some sort of a lag cancel perhaps) approaching will be useful again, but until then pitch a tent and join the campfest.

 

[Jack Kieser]

In Melee the shorthop wasn't used in tournaments until much later in the scene, there also wasn't a community to pick apart the game from day one. In brawl we have found **** near every useful technique that is allowed by the physics engine, and there is no shield stun. If we find a way to cancel the lag of aerials (some sort of a lag cancel perhaps) approaching will be useful again, but until then pitch a tent and join the campfest.

That sarcasm tag was on there for a reason, you know... <_< ;

And, I'd rather not join any 'campfest'. See, I couldn't care less about winning at this point, only about advancing the metagame, so whenever I fight a camper, I go all freakin' out. Sure, I'll die... but eventually I'll figure out something that helps diminish the effect of camping, at least for me. That's all I care about. And, before anyone goes quoting that sirlin article because 'Oh noes, he saed he didnt car abut winningz!', I've read it and I have decided that enjoying my victories is more important than simply having them.

 

[Gill]

And, before anyone goes quoting that sirlin article because 'Oh noes, he saed he didnt car abut winningz!', I've read it and I have decided that enjoying my victories is more important than simply having them.

You're the first person I've seen who still realizes we're playing a game. o_o

 

[Twin Dreams]

That sarcasm tag was on there for a reason, you know... <_< ;

And, I'd rather not join any 'campfest'. See, I couldn't care less about winning at this point, only about advancing the metagame, so whenever I fight a camper, I go all freakin' out. Sure, I'll die... but eventually I'll figure out something that helps diminish the effect of camping, at least for me. That's all I care about. And, before anyone goes quoting that sirlin article because 'Oh noes, he saed he didnt car abut winningz!', I've read it and I have decided that enjoying my victories is more important than simply having them.

As long as you win in your heart....

 

[Jack Kieser]

I just don't see the point in playing/winning a game if you aren't enjoying it in the process. That article is (what I see as) a huge excuse for people to basically do whatever they want to win, which is fine... except it doesn't mention anything about the fact that you're playing a video game, something ostensibly designed to entertain. If I have to jump through so many hoops to win that a game becomes a job, then I'd rather have fun losing (see: World of Warcraft). That's why camping doesn't bother me too much; because it's way more effort to meticulously spam projectiles than to just run in balls-to-the-wall. If I eat a bomb, arrow, or laser, so be it, but ****it, I'm gonna do it on my own terms.

 

[-Linko-]

That sarcasm tag was on there for a reason, you know... <_< ;

And, I'd rather not join any 'campfest'. See, I couldn't care less about winning at this point, only about advancing the metagame, so whenever I fight a camper, I go all freakin' out. Sure, I'll die... but eventually I'll figure out something that helps diminish the effect of camping, at least for me. That's all I care about. And, before anyone goes quoting that sirlin article because 'Oh noes, he saed he didnt car abut winningz!', I've read it and I have decided that enjoying my victories is more important than simply having them.

Actually, Sirlin agrees with you:

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart3.htm

 

[Brookman]

Honestly, there is nothing that is going to help you beat a camper, that's exactly what this thread is all about; camping is the epitome of Brawl. The only way to counter the projectile camping is to camp on the edge.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Would items tournaments affect camping in anyway?



I understand the fact that as the matches approach infinity, it is POSSIBLE that good items will continuously spawn on one person but is that a good enough trade off to try to diminish camping?


Note: Very limited items.

 

[Brookman]

I actually think Items SHOULD be on in Brawl.

but, naturally, everyone automatically feels like no items, FD, DDD dittos only are the truest test of skill to be had. Evo has Smash balls on, correct?

 

[pockyD]

because if there's $5000 on the line, you might be willing to suspend the 'have fun' aspect for a little bit

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I just don't see the point in playing/winning a game if you aren't enjoying it in the process. That article is (what I see as) a huge excuse for people to basically do whatever they want to win, which is fine... except it doesn't mention anything about the fact that you're playing a video game, something ostensibly designed to entertain. If I have to jump through so many hoops to win that a game becomes a job, then I'd rather have fun losing (see: World of Warcraft). That's why camping doesn't bother me too much; because it's way more effort to meticulously spam projectiles than to just run in balls-to-the-wall. If I eat a bomb, arrow, or laser, so be it, but ****it, I'm gonna do it on my own terms.

That's one of the many things that makes Brawl a bad game for competition: the effective strategies aren't fun to do, aren't fun to play against, and aren't fun to watch. Melee is great because the most effective strategies create enjoyable gameplay. If Brawl doesn't evolve beyond what it is now, people will come to the same conclusion as you ("What's the point in winning if it isn't any fun?") and subsequently stop playing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Honestly, there is nothing that is going to help you beat a camper, that's exactly what this thread is all about; camping is the epitome of Brawl. The only way to counter the projectile camping is to camp on the edge.

Or use Sonic/Marth/MK.

It isn't that camping is extrmely powerful, its just that only a limited amount of characters can get in close to stop it.

 

[thumbswayup]

Will MLG never accept Melee in its lineup and only include Brawl from now on?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Only Marth and MK can beat camping by approaching.

Sonic is fast but he isn't good enough to do anything.

 

[Fonix]

I think the more parity in a game the better the competition will be. I'm not going to start by referencing smash brothers, I will reference other games that have a "luck" factor involved. Maybe my comparisons will be unfounded, but the things that most people enjoy doing have a larger field where they tend to rise to the top.

For one we'll start with Texas Hold Em. There are so many levels to this game that I can't even begin to try and explain them here. I've been playing for 3 years, and I'm still learning/improving my game. There are different strategies, and a lot of creativity in the game that go beyond "Call, Bet, Raise, Fold, Bluff" However I am a firm believer that luck will play a part in any given hand 99% of the time. Skill takes place over time though. I may not win every tournament I play in, but I make money in at least half of them, and of that half I win another half. Therefore I may only be winning 25% of the time, but I am still establishing myself as the better player. If I get into a heads up game with most people at the tournaments i'm at I give myself odds as winning 4 out of 5. Unfortunately you only have one game to play it. Does this mean that because the person beats me he is a better player? Of course not. It means things fell his way that game because there are ultimately factors beyond my control which makes it much more conducive to competition, and thus more competitive. You have to know a lot more to be consistent, and you have to work a lot harder. Any fool can sit down and win a poker tournament a two. That doesn't make poker a non competitive game.

I'll reference the sport of football. Everything has been done to make the game even for everybody. In theory everyone should finish with the same records right? They all have the same opportunity to pick up free agent players. They are all allowed to spend the same amount of money. If they did not have a good season they are given a higher draft pick to shore up their weaknesses. However the fact is each year teams rise to the top. Look at the Colts and Patriots. Every year they rise to the top. It is because they have a better knowledge of the game, and prepare for it as such. Sure they might lose a few games, but realistically they are the better team.

Brawl to me is bringing this balance into the game. It may change down the road, but in it's current state there really is a balance to the game. By that I mean the game isn't broken down into certain characters that you HAVE to use to win a tournament. No I am not going to make an argument against tier lists here, but let's face it you saw the same 5 characters used in each tournament for melee. There was no parity. How is that a competition at all? Whether it's competitive or not is going to be a function of it's competition imo.

Yes advanced techs are out. Yes it seems like new players are able to get lucky. Yes the game seems slower. Okay I will concede all of that. However these factors have all allowed new players to get their foot in the ground and really push things. I still think the better player will win out in a 3 game match(I mean realistically is a good player going to make the same mistakes in 2 matches?) Tournament structure is designed to ensure that the best player has a significant advantage. That in itself kills how competitive a game is. The competition is ultimately better when everyone is level. The more competitive players will rise to the top in that environment, and thus a larger competition makes for a more competitive game.

I'm not knocking on either game. I love them both. I think they both have their merits. I'm hoping that my arguments are met with fair responses(as my arguments were attempted to be) that actually use logic. I am always open to learning something and being corrected, so feel free to blast holes all through this, and teach me something.

 

[Maxxthepenguin]

So let me get this straight...

If somebody had only played Melee for one month, not enough time to learn the ins and outs, and they post here that they like Brawl better and find it to be deeper, they are shunned and called idiots. They haven't seen the utmost majesty of Melee, the beauty, the skill, the depth, the orgasmic glee.

If somebody has only played Brawl for less than one month, not enough time to learn the ins and outs, and says Melee is better they are absolutely right?

Do you not see this? You are basically saying that if they didn't play Melee for months on end then they didn't understand it but there haven't even been months on end to have played here. We don't know the exact number of frames for every move by heart. We don't know how best to abuse the off-stage game yet. We don't know how things will pan out and you have to be extremely cocky to think you know how it will.

My main point is this: Isn't any judgment here premature? Is the finality of people's hatred for Brawl not fair to the game? Would you have wanted this standard to have been held to melee in its early months? Why can't the haters, rather than say Brawl suxxxx, instead say Brawl suxxxx for now.

Seriously guys, we haven't even gotten a tier list nailed down.

 

[Brookman]

tl;dr/ten.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Hey, no johns, Brookman.

 

[Galaxy]

So let me get this straight...

If somebody had only played Melee for one month, not enough time to learn the ins and outs, and they post here that they like Brawl better and find it to be deeper, they are shunned and called idiots. They haven't seen the utmost majesty of Melee, the beauty, the skill, the depth, the orgasmic glee.

If somebody has only played Brawl for less than one month, not enough time to learn the ins and outs, and says Melee is better they are absolutely right?

Do you not see this? You are basically saying that if they didn't play Melee for months on end then they didn't understand it but there haven't even been months on end to have played here. We don't know the exact number of frames for every move by heart. We don't know how best to abuse the off-stage game yet. We don't know how things will pan out and you have to be extremely cocky to think you know how it will.

My main point is this: Isn't any judgment here premature? Is the finality of people's hatred for Brawl not fair to the game? Would you have wanted this standard to have been held to melee in its early months? Why can't the haters, rather than say Brawl suxxxx, instead say Brawl suxxxx for now.

Seriously guys, we haven't even gotten a tier list nailed down.

Such a good post.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Sonic is fast but he isn't good enough to do anything.

LM FAO

 

[Brookman]

Hey, no johns, Brookman.

I like you.

 

[The Executive]

Only Marth and MK can beat camping by approaching.

Sonic is fast but he isn't good enough to do anything.

Taking Luigi's hovering tornado 'glitch' into account, he can still approach a camper, but he's slower and options are limited.

 

[Maxxthepenguin]

tl;dr/ten.

Oh well

 

[Brookman]

slower and options are limited.

case, point.

also, Azen displays a bit of genius towards the end of this video. It's a good watch.

edit: lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LxWJ0tSKgY&feature=related

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sonic isn't on MK's or Marth's level.

To compare him to them should be illegal.

 

[The Executive]

case, point.

also, Azen displays a bit of genius towards the end of this video. It's a good watch.

Yep. Which video is this, by the way?

 

[Jack Kieser]

I was just about to ask that, too. Maybe it's the video playing in his mind.

 

[Brookman]

I didn't put the link in, ****ing sue me *****.

 

[The Executive]

...I'd rather just have the link. Less time-consuming/effort on my part.

 

[Zankoku]

He edited the link in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LxWJ0tSKgY&feature=related

 

[The Executive]

Yay.

10vid

Edit: seen before. Three things possible.

A: Azen = beast
B: Other guy = suck.
C: Both.

I choose C. That was truly 'crushage'.