Sega Vs. Everyone (Zamus and Marth entry complete)

[MalcolmM]

I honestly think sonic has a tough time in most of the matchups...lol. his game revolves around just insane amounts of unpredictability and speed. Ganon i could c being a pretty even matchup...while sonic can "combo" him and gimp him...the threat of the side-b off the stage will halt that for the most part and his side-b on the stage goes through every attack sonic has since it has SA frames. His down-b on the ground beats any spindash and has a decent knockback. He KO's with the Dair @ like 100% and i personally have found it impossible to up-air to spring up air him since his Down-b comes out so quickly and now shoots u up...leading to sonic's death. Ganon isnt that great of a character...but sonic takes alot of risks trying to KO him...that will in most cases lead to himself being KO'd.

Lucario i think...is designed to completely destroy characters like sonic....sonic can't kill and lucario only gets better the more % he has... so while sonic may have the advantadge in i dunno...the first 40% or so...from them on Lucario starts to outrange him, his projectile becomes useful, and whoever said spring to up-air works on him hasnt played a lucario who has discovered pressing down on the c-stick.: his down-air ***** sonic's up-air. Not to mention his foward smash is absolutely ridiculous and his jabs have a deceptive "aura" range that is about as long as sonic's d-tilt...Lucario is a pretty tough matchup for sonic.

Oh and snake is another tough one....while it was brought up that u can grab his up-b, it was not mentioned that snake can blow himself up with the C-4 and up-b again. in no way is grabbing his up-b a guaranteed kill. snake in general...jus does not die. and i think the reason why people don't find this matchup insanely difficult is because they r focusing on his projectiles. Snakes projectiles .are the LEAST of my worries when i play against one. U can out-run his C-4 and his nikita, roll through a landmine and it blows up and shield dash through any grenade that may come ur way. But the real issue...is that snake isn't weak in close combat....his jabs alone...wreck sonic. they clank with sonic's f smash...clank with his f-tilt...out prioritize every b-move....clank with the down-smash...the only move that hits when snake is holding down the a-button...is his down-tilt. The fact that sonic is THAT limited due to one button...says alot about the matchup. Not to mention snake's speed can nearly match urs with the mortar slide technique and his f-tilt down-tilt and up-tilt all come out extremely quick and kill far eariler than any of sonics moves.

I play sonic as a secondary...and I have to say...i really dont think he has any outstanding matchups...i personally jus love the old sega games...so i cant give up on him. Oddly enuf, he does fairly well against DDD...the character that every other person has the most problems with. He can up-b out of the chain grab and it doesnt leave him vulnerable like it does for most of the cast....hes insanely fast (altho inhale will pose a few problems) so avoiding things like the f-tilt and down-smash are pretty simple and altho DDD has multiple jumps...i find the homing attack and nair to actually work very well @ taking away those jumps. not to mention...u can perfect shield the stars that come out after his up-b lands and f-smash...i personally have gotten that down to a science...its a great way to punish. and if he cancels it near the ledge...instead ledgehog grabs the ledge way quicker than he ever will. this of course isnt to say that DDD can't KO u @ a ridiculously low %. His u-tilt will destroy any homing attack chances if hes grounded. his down tilt may work towards slowing sonic down a bit. But...i find that hitting sonic isn't as easy and without the method of building damage through the chain grab DDD will find it hard getting the % to land these kill moves.


(and wow...this was a long post. all i wanted to do was talk about ganon...but i have mad experience in all these matchups...had to share.)

 

[MalcolmM]

oh yea and for the IC's...if u kno they are going to Up-B recover...jus remember that Nana is like a tether recovery. she only goes to the ledge if you arent on it....otherwise she goes back to that stupid recovery they had in melee and usually dies...leaving popo for that beating that he enjoys so much.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I don't understand how a character with laggy moves and is gimpable can be considered to have an advantage over a character whose specialty is in punishing and chasing.QUOTE]

That part, I agree with. And I meant that you can be unpredictable in the timing of your spindash, yes, it's just the fact that when you are spaced quite a way away from Ganondorf people just often spindash to close the gap, and I think most of if not all Ganondorf's attack out-prioritise Sonic's spindash. Side B's most commonly used, because of SA frames, but I know people can just do a plain old jab, too.
KO-ing Ganondorf is also a problem, as he's heavy. U-air won't really help much. The only way to easily kill Ganondorf is by gimping him, like you said.

 

[cobaltblue]

It's a shame that Sonic's one of the lighter 'middle-weights', because Ganondorf has an easy time with those more often than not. Looking at the Ganondorf boards, they seem to think that he has a slight advantage against Sonic, and I guess you'd have to agree. Being predictable, particularly on the ground, will just let Ganondorf anticipate all your moves, and punish you for it. Spindashes are fairly easy to read, really.
In fact, thinking about it, predictability coupled with awful priority really means that Sonic won't really have a lot of good match-ups..

Sonic's spin dashs aren't quite that easy to read. Unless the opponet knows sonic backwards and forward they can't quite read which one you do. Plus you can spin shot, jump stright up, jump into and use air moves, or just go with dashs for shield canceling and dash attacks.

When it comes to dorf it seems that the game becomes more of baiting the dorf into attacking and then punshing for his slowness.

 

[FrostByte]

You can just jump out of the spin attack early and use homing as a basic mixup. Ganon's over B is technically a grab right? So that means it shouldn't hit you when you're in the air (Spindash's hop). His recovers begs to be spring'd.

 

[MalcolmM]

ganons side b works in the air....

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't understand how a character with laggy moves and is gimpable can be considered to have an advantage over a character whose specialty is in punishing and chasing.QUOTE]

That part, I agree with. And I meant that you can be unpredictable in the timing of your spindash, yes, it's just the fact that when you are spaced quite a way away from Ganondorf people just often spindash to close the gap, and I think most of if not all Ganondorf's attack out-prioritise Sonic's spindash. Side B's most commonly used, because of SA frames, but I know people can just do a plain old jab, too.
KO-ing Ganondorf is also a problem, as he's heavy. U-air won't really help much. The only way to easily kill Ganondorf is by gimping him, like you said.

yes they do over prioritize his attacks except for his spindash's hop.
yes the spincharge/dash are used for closing gaps and should be used but who in the heck is going to keep moving directly forward and not pop themselves into the air so that Gannadorf won't have an easy time hitting him?
his Side B is good but you can simply jump ove rhim and dair/nair/fair/uair him it really isn't something a good Sonic should be surprised by.
Koing ganadorf is not a problem.
Shield to Dsmash works well as does shield to Fsmash.
or you can set him up with a spindash for a bair.
Uairing him isn't hard since the Uair has good priority and can only be stopped by ganandorf's down B which shouldn't happen since you have to be quick with the Uair in general with any other character you are fighting.

It is easy to kill ganandorf simply because Sonic can punish him for his laggy moves.
you can repeatedly Fair him off the stage even if its a walk off. the key to killing Ganandorf is not out right overopwering and killing him. its pressuring him until you knock him off the stage.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Added Luigi, Ganondorf, and Lucario.

 

[samper]

on Lucario's Dair, and I guess this goes under mind games, you could use the fact that it stomps out sonic's Uair against him by pursuing him up and off to the side.

That Dair is a really good move, so I'd imagine your opponent would be looking to use it whenever he/she can, and just about every Sonic player I've seen uses Uair whenever possible so going around him when chasing him into the air to fool him into using Dair so you can land a Fair or Bair seems like a good idea. Train him to look for those two enough and you may even get the chance to land an easy Uair, plus I don't think Lucario's Dair has much horizontal clearance so it seems like a viable strategy (I don't know how his reach changes at higher percents though).

Take that with a grain of salt though as I don't have access to my wii at the moment, and I don't often get to play against other people, let alone a Lucario mainer. Seems like a pretty obvious strategy, but I figured I'd throw it out there in case there was anyone that hadn't given it much thought.

 

[darkNES386]

Um... above all else, do NOT attack Lucario from above. His priority pretty much stops all of sonic's attacks. I have some video's to demonstrate this and more coming soon. Just don't...

 

[MalcolmM]

ganon's short hop down-b out of shield....makes shield pressure a big issue. it is his fastest move out of shield and knocks people up slightly...to set them up for a side -b if they decide to air dodge and hit the ground....or an aerial pursuit by ganon. the matchup is alot harder than people are acknowledging. Sonic's speed in brawl is amazing...but without effective ways of stopping this speed like we had in melee through pivots dash dancing and wave dashes its not all that it is cracked up to be. (and i know there is a brawl pivot...and a "sonic dash dance" but these things aren't comparable to melee....they are much harder to do and much less effective...since u cant stop sonic on a dime...u can only stop him after a fox trot.)

Oh and in regards to the post about luigi being sonic's #1 enemy....i would like to disagree and say wario is the anti-sonic. his moves are awkward and have high priority...the bite stops spin dash approaches....he kills @ like 100....the bike goes through any sonic move...b move or smash attack....and on top of that he isnt easily gimped.

oh and i dont kno if anyone else feels this way but.....i thoroughly enjoy sonic vs. diddy kong. I'll explain later...

 

[samper]

Not sure if you consider this an effective way to stop running malcolm, but you can forward B then shield to stop Sonic's run at any time if I remember correctly (vs. just shielding which I think you can only do when Sonic's hit the full figure 8 part of his run animation). You don't have to pause or charge the forward B either, just run, press B, press shield and you have yourself a nearly instant stop.

Only problem with it from what I remember is that it makes the spin dash sound, but that's not much of an issue, and who knows maybe you could throw someone off occasionally like that.

And darkNES, did you mean don't attack Lucario from above while he's in the air, on the ground, or both (as in his Uair, Utilit, and Usmash are just too dangerous)?

As always sorry if I'm misinterpreting something, feel free to correct me.

 

[darkNES386]

Oh and in regards to the post about luigi being sonic's #1 enemy....i would like to disagree and say wario is the anti-sonic. his moves are awkward and have high priority...the bite stops spin dash approaches....he kills @ like 100....the bike goes through any sonic move...b move or smash attack....and on top of that he isnt easily gimped.

oh and i dont kno if anyone else feels this way but.....i thoroughly enjoy sonic vs. diddy kong. I'll explain later...

I agree with you on both of those things. Wario is extremely tough for Sonic. He is heavy and floaty and has some really good aerials that can rack up damage fast. His bike can be annoying but isn't usually that hard to deal with.

And darkNES, did you mean don't attack Lucario from above while he's in the air, on the ground, or both (as in his Uair, Utilit, and Usmash are just too dangerous)?

As always sorry if I'm misinterpreting something, feel free to correct me.

Lol, deffinately don't attack Lucario when he is on the ground planted firmly and you're directly above him. Odds are that his attacks will only stop you and then combo you while you try to DI/espace out of there. If he's above you, his dair is also very dangerouns, but avoidable if you can get next to him. You just have to approach with caution. It's very subtle, but the fact that Lucario rolls further (as his smash brother ancestor mewtwo did) really helps keep distance between him and Sonic easier than most characters can.

 

[PerfectChaos]

Yes, finally a good match up list. Very good work by the way.

 

[MarKO X]

the Lucario match up makes sense, and I obviously have not played a decent Luigi yet because the Luigi matchup makes sense as well.

But yeah, I encourage you to keep updating this!

 

[MalcolmM]

Well i saw a request for "young link" in another thread so ill drop my opinion on the TL matchup in here as well. 3 Projectiles, incredibly fast, small, disjointed hitbox and 2 forms of recovery...Toon Link is a monster. Altho hes not nearly sonic's toughest matchup...hes defintely not easy. Hes one of those characters who simply frustrates sonic users because every smash attack he has and some of his tilts...and aerials....are all kill moves. Throw in the ability to camp u like no1 else and u have the matchup against toon link. but there is hope. A big issue will be across the stage...this isnt going to be a spin dash kinda game. Maybe u can spin shot....or shield cancel it to throw him off....or abuse the side-b frames that go through projectiles once or twice....but in general...when across the stage against toon link ur gonna end up shield dashing and punishing for the lag on his projectiles (mainly boomerang and pulling out a bomb...since u can kinda cancel the lag on the bow) Toon Links moves...while godlike....do have lag after them (aside from the nair). even his insanely elegant and auto combo back air has time for a fair out of shield. Its a very odd matchup because when far away sonic has to shield dash in to avoid the projectiles....and when being spaced well against toon link u will find ur oppurtunities limited....but once u get that first attack in...wether it be from perfect shield the arrow 2 inches away from him...or grabbing him while hes pulling out a bomb, keep the rush coming. once u have shield pressure on toon link there is NO reason to let up...his shield grab is the same one link was plagued with (except shorter) so it isnt too much to worry about. his jab isnt quick like so many other characters....and his up-b out of shield is about as good as links which has been nerfed in both damage and start up time. so while u may feel like ur playing some odd platformer dodging projectiles from the other side of battle field....the second u can get that first grab or jab or aerial or dash attack in....to interrupt his flow u jus cant stop.

Few little things about toon link matchup in general: gimping is a no-no....his second jump is like the size of ganon's up-b and his up-b is ridiculous...and almost always stage spikes (in my experience).Chances are if u get caught out there in the air with toon link trying to tango ....ur gonna get hurt. His n-air hits in front and behind him...his up-air his almighty priority and he can use these moves without fear because his up-b goes as high as a fully charged wario waft. On another note... His down air....spot dodge. its the only way to punish it. Hes just gonna hop off ur shield if u put it up....and then do another move. If u r in the sad position of being above toon link....save ur jump. or spring and down air away. it may look like hes open if u just air dodge and punish but...if he does that up-air....there is no air dodging. The hitbox for the move stays out far longer than any spot dodge. Also....his f-smash....do not... and i am telling u this to spare u from the look of confusion....do not shield the first hit....and roll behind hoping to punish when he does the second hit. the hitbox for the second hit extends behind him as well...(i know i know...it doesnt make sense). If you are hit by the first hit....tap DI up and u MAY escape the second hit....it is possible to escape the second hit. oh yea and....Up-Smash = Run. For some reason his one swipe (nearly identical to his up-tilt) is stronger than u would believe.

in conclusion....hes beatable but only for the patient sonic player. if u wanna make a 3:40 action packed combo video in a match vs toon link...ur jus gonna get combo'd by him and his ugly projectiles.

oh and ill do diddy kong later tonight...but yea i still think hes a pretty easy match for sonic.

 

[Badakin]

DO DIDDY KONG ><

ty

 

[Ryudo_Sama]

I will make a Zelda one, and maybe an Ike.

 

[TwinkleToes]

and on top of that he isnt easily gimped.

That's kind of misleading. It's not easy but it certainly isn't difficult to gimp Wario. It's just that you can't quite do it at the really low percents like you can for some other characters. However, as long as you hit Wario before he jumps off his bike the chances of him returning to the edge of the stage are small.

 

[MalcolmM]

That's kind of misleading. It's not easy but it certainly isn't difficult to gimp Wario. It's just that you can't quite do it at the really low percents like you can for some other characters. However, as long as you hit Wario before he jumps off his bike the chances of him returning to the edge of the stage are small.

Hitting wario off of his bike is obviously the way 2 gimp him but if we r talking a wario player of any true value....hes using the bike either to a) jump off way b4 hes anywhere around sonic to ensure a safe recovery...b) taking out the bike to negate a sonic attack or c) sinking so slow that sonic would have to kill himself in order to hit wario....not too mention....due to how floaty wario is...if u hit him off the bike and he doesnt panic...with a second jump...he can use the bike @ the very bottom of the screen AGAIN...bike jump and up-b. the character is incredibly hard to gimp...unless the player becomes predictable and/or panics. ASIDE from that....wario almost never needs to use any form of recovery....his aerial DI is insane...and can often float back to the stage due to the vertical trajectory of most moves in brawl. and considering the move set of sonic in the air....what move could he possibly use that would knock wario off his back and send him @ any angle other than far up if the player were to DI correctly? Gimping wario...is certainly difficult. Then too ADD onto that paragraph onto how difficult it is to gimp wario....he holds the ultimate trump card....his fart. I didnt want to be misleading...so i have now written another wall of text =(

 

[supercake]

I think you all are pretty optimistic on a lot of this. I bet everyone else thinks their character has an adv. against 80% of everyone else too. Look at the Ganon forum for Gods sake.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus-Cie
Honestly, while the speed can seem a little overwhelming at first, Sonic is actually pretty bad against Gannondorf. One of the lighter medium weights, so he is knocked out fairly easily. Sonic has you beat at the approach due to that insane speed, but if he stays close, you have him beat. Flame Choke, FTilt, and DSmash are all VERY effective. But if he does not stay close, or you want an easier time, draw Sonic into an air game. It seems like the only good aerials he has air his Fair and Dair. Sonic is vastly inferior in air, so if you can draw him into an air game, you can get him.

"I agree with Magus-Cie: Ganon has a (minor) advantage. Even though Sonic's ground speed is fast, your jab overpowers his dash attack, he's slow in the air, his two rolling approach moves can be stopped by your jab.. He's a pretty predictable opponent with no real good killing moves. His best moves are uairs, but with your weight, it's easy to stay alive."

"Honestly, a good Ganon player shouldn't have much trouble with Sonic at all. Just go with the usual, Flame Choke, Ftilt, Dtilt, Jabs... Whatever, it works. Sonic is light enough to be knocked off by Ftilt. One thing I can say is, don't use your fair a whole lot. Your other moves are enough to kill him, and the lag really isn't worth it. Unless you're feeling cool and you're SURE you can get it off, don't do it."

 

[TwinkleToes]

Malcolm, really, Wario coming in high on the stage using his aerial DI is the only annoying part about gimping him that I've found.

I can gimp using any method nearly as low on the level that Wario can recover from, and if all else fails the spring can work to knock him from the bike.

And Wario rarely gets his bike off before I'm able to gimp him since I always follow opponents that are knocked far off the stage with a spin jump. If that doesn't reach him then he either hit a blast line or got enough height that he would be able to safely recover anyways (nothing you can really do about that with any character).

As for the Wario waft... he get's to use that twice in a match probably right? You should be able to afford two gimp opportunities I would think...

supercake, I should visit other sub-forums more often haha.

 

[disguy]

Good Lucario matchup. My friend has a really good Lucario. I used to lose to him a lot because I was always about being on the offensive and keeping the pressure, but that's not a good approach against him. I agree that being patient and punishing whiffed attacks is the way to beat him. I almost gave up using Sonic against Lucario, but I learned to play more defensive against him and it works.

 

[MalcolmM]

Malcolm, really, Wario coming in high on the stage using his aerial DI is the only annoying part about gimping him that I've found.

I can gimp using any method nearly as low on the level that Wario can recover from, and if all else fails the spring can work to knock him from the bike.

And Wario rarely gets his bike off before I'm able to gimp him since I always follow opponents that are knocked far off the stage with a spin jump. If that doesn't reach him then he either hit a blast line or got enough height that he would be able to safely recover anyways (nothing you can really do about that with any character).

As for the Wario waft... he get's to use that twice in a match probably right? You should be able to afford two gimp opportunities I would think...

supercake, I should visit other sub-forums more often haha.

I have no doubt that u are the wario gimp god...BUT isnt ur whole edgeguarding "approach"...negated by anyone who air dodges?...the homing attack doesnt work if ppl air dodge @ the right time...i mean it seems like ur a brilliant player but i question ur opponents if u can "ALWAYS" do the same thing and they haven't figured out pressing the L button while in the air will stop it. and the combination of his aerial DI and his different recovery moves is what i find makes him hard to gimp u dont really kno what hes going to do. Also...u have to tell me how u have the greatest homing attack ever...cause my move jus flips out on me occasionally and goes straight down rather than "to the blast line"....infact ive never seen the move go anywhere near the "blast line"...i mean ill leave it up to other sonic players to make the call but I feel its difficult...and Lucky in all 4 videos against wario doesnt get a legitimate gimp in any of them....he kills wario early based on the players experience with the character (i.e. ...not using the bike to recover @ all) or kills him @ the usual sonic %s.

Oh and i kinda promised diddy kong. Diddy Kong is what i would consider a sonic-friendly match. Since sonic has so many matcups that start with "This is going to require a lot of patience" or "this is going to be a tough one but u can win" its refreshing to play against a diddy kong as defense is not the first option. More than most opponents...u will find urself shield grabbing diddy kong alot....like a hell of alot....since he cant weave in and out with attacks like alot of the cast can. Infact...diddy kong's approaches usually revolve around his bananas. Throwing the bananas....planting them on the ground....followups off trips. But sonic was graced with an amazing dash attack...so a majority of the bananas....u can actually grab urself and still hit diddy (altho u can still get shield grabbed...) u will find urself dash attacking alot...as it clanks with his...so jus b ready to do the f-tilt or d-tilt after the two clank .His recovery isnt THAT bad as many people are making it out to be....but its fairly predictable and fairly easy to gimp. Everything from a spring to a homing attack to a nair will suffice if he is below the stage. if not below the stage...it becomes trickier with the addition of his foward b but not by much. most of the time u will find urself way off the stage chasing diddy just to pressure him into recovering under the stage...his recovery is both tricky to land exactly on the ledge and laggy if it doesnt hit the sweet spot. So if he lands on the stage i consider that a free smash attack. DIddy's priority also isnt the hell that most characters are for sonic. The kick that he can do out of his foward-b is his highest priority move...but lacks killing power so not the biggest worry. Ur speed will play a big part in this one as deciding when and where to throw the bananas becomes more difficult with a stupid fast hedgehog running around the stage. The peanut gun....well....i havent seen any use for this move yet aside from the cancel which serves as a mindgame...alot like the Foward-b shield cancel. Also...his down-air has a startup...which is always great to hear cause that means up-b to up-air is a plausible move. But to bware of diddy's bair and fair....while he doesnt out prioritize sonic...these moves have a pretty good range and he can do 2 in a SH. Beware the dash attack...altho it looks like its over...its never over...he can follow it up with just about every ground move he has with almost no lag....most noticably dash attack to up-smash looks like one move. Diddy's kill moves are his down smash and f-smash....he can also chase a bit off the stage with fair and bair or dair spike. His down smash is fairly quick but wont kill til 130 or so...and with the move decay...if ur opponent spams it ur not going to die for a loooooooong time. His F-smash is 3 hits...so it can poke ur shield and give u the knockback...thats a bit annoying but otherwise it has some startup and is just as practical as sonic's f-smash. I haven't had much trouble against diddy kong for the most part...i find myself able to play offensive...which is so rare. The one thing diddy is about....is controlling the stage and annoying his opponent...if u can not go "OMG I HATE TRIPPING OVER THESE STUPID BANANAS" and pick up a few....to throw off his game...u should b pretty much in control of the match.

Oh and his set up throws....unless @ some insane %...DI away w/e direction hes sending u so he cant follow up with Fairs or Bairs...or u can simply air dodge. His Down throw sends u back so b aware of that b4 hand....i got caught by it once...it was ugly.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Holy crap Malcolm, make new paragraphs. I didn't even try to get through your Diddy Kong stuff @.@

I don't use Homing Attack against Wario for the most part... although I might if I'm sure he's going to pull his bike out right as I home in on him. Otherwise, as you said, he'll probably just dodge the gimp and bad things will ensue for Sonic. I'll usually try to dair->spring gimp him when he comes in low on the level, which works particularly well on FD I think. Other wise, I'll try to just push him out with repeated fairs. If he dodges past the fair I'll probably be able to hit him with a homing attack, although granted that will just push him closer to the stage, but I rely a lot on gimping to do damage to my opponents so that's ok.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Woo, my post got added! Thanks Blue Terrorist

 

[FrostByte]

Airdodging the Homing isn't much of a problem anyway since you can initiate it manually. If they're airdodging into you then there's a higher chance of them getting hit.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

added Toon Link and all the space animals

 

[Umby]

For TL, I did confirm that Boomerangs and Arrows indeed cancel out Spin Dash/Charge. Also add the fact that Toon Link can also Nair if you try and shield grab from behind.

 

[Tenki]

Random note: Spin dash > Bananas

srsly, no tripping lol

 

[MarKO X]

I'll do Sonic vs. Marth:

I'm a put the Dos, Don'ts in reverse... Because it just has to be put that way.

Don't
- Fight with Marth in the air. You will be outprioritized, outranged, and owned.
- Spin Dash. Or Spin Charge. A good Marth has good timing, and good timing will get you slashed out of your spin, grabbed out of your spin, and owned out of your spin.
- Homing Attack. Period. If Marth is on solid ground, there's nothing worse than catching an upsmash up your *** because of a predictable homing attack. Trying to gimp him? Don't, or Marth's upB will make you fail most of the time, smashing you upside the ledge and to your death.

Do

- Outrun Marth. Yeah, Marth is fast, but you're faster. Most Marths prefer offensive rather than defense, so you have to stay on the move or you'll be pressured and punished.
- Punish his lag with TILTS!!! If Marth's fsmash is anticipated, you have two primary options: Roll or Power Shield (PS is your friend when playing with Sonic), then counter with a TILT!!! I say a tilt attack because the pre-lag in Sonic's smashes are likely to be avoided by Marth unless you're really fast or they're really slow. TILTS counter almost all the time.
- Spring Jump any combo you think you're getting hit with. Getting smacked up in the air? Spring jump. Forward B spam? Spring Jump. Make sure you air dodge back to the ground though...
- Quick short hop fairs. Don't spam 'em, but use 'em.
- Stay on the ground. Use down grab to tech chase, and then throw them off later in the match by not moving at all.
- Something I like to call "Automatic 4%." If you knock Marth away from the stage, most Marth's decide to fall below the edge so that they can upB to auto-sweetspot the ledge (a blessing in Brawl if you've played as Marth in Melee and got owned because you didn't sweepspot). So use your spring to give Marth an automatic 4% damage. He has to take it to recover. If air dodges, chances are, he'll fail. This makes eliminating him (as well as anyone you'd fail at gimping) easier to eliminate the next to try it.
- Got spiked? Spring jump. Just hold up and press B frantically. I don't know the exact frame count, but I've done it three times to save my *** from getting spikes, and twice the spring hit the spiker, resulting in an elmination.

My opinion
Marth definitely has the advantage here. You ARE going to have a hell of a time with Marth because of his range, his priority, and his style of play. The key to winning a match against Marth is to control the tempo of the fight. Abuse your speed (pointless dashing is the only thing I would suggest spamming), and apply mind games, especially in terms of the Spin Dash. Use it once, then use it never again, but act like you are gonna use it. Then use it one more time. If you can frustrate Marth and throw him off his game, then you can win.

Remember, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Get around Marth's sword, and you'll avoid getting owned.

 

[Umby]

Side Note: Definitely don't Homing Attack vs TL for recovery.

Just don't.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

If I can add to Sonic ownage.I think he owns Marth,CF,and Ike.I can explain the Ike part.Ok,Ike might kill at low percents,but we have something call getthe **** out of the way of the smash attacks.People think Sonic palyers are stupid,and can't aviod ****.And let not forget how slow Ike is,and it would take a while for him to kill Sonic,if that Sonic is good.And Sonic can just combo Ike all ****ign day if he fell like it.

 

[Napilopez]

I want to play a good marth. I have yet to find any trouble against any sword weilder with the exception of toon link, becauseof his tinyness.

Interesting sidenote, during the ZOMG PRIORITY of initial hop of the SideB, Sonic can reflect the ice climbers icy attack thingy majjigs. I dunno if it reflects other projectiles, though, will test that now.

 

[FrostByte]

This is all pretty accurate actually, I'll just add or elaborate on a few things

I'll do Sonic vs. Marth:

I'm a put the Dos, Don'ts in reverse... Because it just has to be put that way.

Don't
- Fight with Marth in the air. You will be outprioritized, outranged, and owned.

If the Marth tries to attack you, just wait for him to land and go for the grab/dash attack

- Spin Dash. Or Spin Charge. A good Marth has good timing, and good timing will get you slashed out of your spin, grabbed out of your spin, and owned out of your spin.
- Homing Attack. Period. If Marth is on solid ground, there's nothing worse than catching an upsmash up your *** because of a predictable homing attack. Trying to gimp him? Don't, or Marth's upB will make you fail most of the time, smashing you upside the ledge and to your death.

Bair is really good to edgeguard Marth, just don't go too low or you have to deal with invincibility on his dolphin slash.

Do

- Outrun Marth. Yeah, Marth is fast, but you're faster. Most Marths prefer offensive rather than defense, so you have to stay on the move or you'll be pressured and punished.
- Punish his lag with TILTS!!! If Marth's fsmash is anticipated, you have two primary options: Roll or Power Shield (PS is your friend when playing with Sonic), then counter with a TILT!!! I say a tilt attack because the pre-lag in Sonic's smashes are likely to be avoided by Marth unless you're really fast or they're really slow. TILTS counter almost all the time.

I'll just add that tilts are freaking godly against Marth, you can even approach with them. Ftilt has the same priority as Marth's Fsmash and can cancel it. It has longer range than Marth's fair and Sonic will be in a safe position as to not get hit by it because the top half of his body will be close to the ground

- Spring Jump any combo you think you're getting hit with. Getting smacked up in the air? Spring jump. Forward B spam? Spring Jump. Make sure you air dodge back to the ground though...
- Quick short hop fairs. Don't spam 'em, but use 'em.

Really good for punishing Marth anytime he shorthops.

- Stay on the ground. Use down grab to tech chase, and then throw them off later in the match by not moving at all.
- Something I like to call "Automatic 4%." If you knock Marth away from the stage, most Marth's decide to fall below the edge so that they can upB to auto-sweetspot the ledge (a blessing in Brawl if you've played as Marth in Melee and got owned because you didn't sweepspot). So use your spring to give Marth an automatic 4% damage. He has to take it to recover. If air dodges, chances are, he'll fail. This makes eliminating him (as well as anyone you'd fail at gimping) easier to eliminate the next to try it.
- Got spiked? Spring jump. Just hold up and press B frantically. I don't know the exact frame count, but I've done it three times to save my *** from getting spikes, and twice the spring hit the spiker, resulting in an elmination.

My opinion
Marth definitely has the advantage here. You ARE going to have a hell of a time with Marth because of his range, his priority, and his style of play. The key to winning a match against Marth is to control the tempo of the fight. Abuse your speed (pointless dashing is the only thing I would suggest spamming), and apply mind games, especially in terms of the Spin Dash. Use it once, then use it never again, but act like you are gonna use it. Then use it one more time. If you can frustrate Marth and throw him off his game, then you can win.

Remember, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Get around Marth's sword, and you'll avoid getting owned.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think you all are pretty optimistic on a lot of this. I bet everyone else thinks their character has an adv. against 80% of everyone else too. Look at the Ganon forum for Gods sake.

and they aren't?

Oh well let's see the arugment at hand.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus-Cie
Honestly, while the speed can seem a little overwhelming at first, Sonic is actually pretty bad against Gannondorf. One of the lighter medium weights, so he is knocked out fairly easily.

So is half the cast but let's go on.

Sonic has you beat at the approach due to that insane speed, but if he stays close, you have him beat. Flame Choke, FTilt, and DSmash are all VERY effective.

Which is why Sonic does not aim to be a close range fighter. He pressures.
Sonic's Ftilt is also faster than Ganandorf's.
Ganadorf's Dsmash is very easily seen and can be dodged.
Three ground moves's isn't enough to stop Sonic, especially when those ground moves are all that Ganandorf can claim for his ground game which is bad considering all his moves can be punished except for the jab.

But if he does not stay close, or you want an easier time, draw Sonic into an air game. It seems like the only good aerials he has air his Fair and Dair. Sonic is vastly inferior in air, so if you can draw him into an air game, you can get him.

Nair? Bair? Homing attack? Spring?
Obviously he has no clue about SOnic's air game or he wouldn't say this.

"I agree with Magus-Cie: Ganon has a (minor) advantage. Even though Sonic's ground speed is fast, your jab overpowers his dash attack,

A good Sonic won't be using the spindash to attack unless he feels like mixing things up in his approach or he'll mindame it and make Ganadorf attack then jump and punish.

he's slow in the air,

Fail. Spinshotting changes this completely.

his two rolling approach moves can be stopped by your jab..

Fail more. No good Sonic attacks with the dash unless they want to mix things up.

As I said He's a pretty predictable opponent with no real good killing moves. His best moves are uairs, but with your weight, it's easy to stay alive."

Fail harder.
Bair, Dsmash, Fsmas, Fair, Dair, U air, Ftilt are all good.
The only time Sonic will not be killing Ganandorf easily is on a walk off stage where he can't interrupt the opponent in the air and control the match.

"Honestly, a good Ganon player shouldn't have much trouble with Sonic at all.
Just go with the usual, Flame Choke, Ftilt, Dtilt, Jabs... Whatever, it works. Sonic is light enough to be knocked off by Ftilt. One thing I can say is, don't use your fair a whole lot. Your other moves are enough to kill him, and the lag really isn't worth it. Unless you're feeling cool and you're SURE you can get it off, don't do it."

all of Ganandorf's Aerials lag when he lands. ALL of them so Sonic can easily punish him.
Sonic vs Ganandorf is an advantage for Sonic because he can approach, mindgame and punish Ganandorf heavily. The only time he has problems is when its a walk off stage and even then Sonic can rack up damage until he can KO Ganandorf or knock him to the edge.

Grabs also nullify jabs and tilts and homing attack punishes manyof Ganandorf's moves.
Bad arguments are bad. Anyone with tournament experience wil tell you that Sonic will not lose to Ganandorf if they are on the same skill level simply because the strategioes Sonic can emply nullify Ganandorf's power.
Their arguments could be made for Bowser for chrissake.

 

[Tenki]

I like Ganondorf and all, but I have to agree, most of those arguments assume a really newbie Sonic or have false assumptions ._.;

Heck, I could tear apart some of his arguments with numbers too (u-air? weight-argument? lol), but...

all of Ganandorf's Aerials lag when he lands. ALL of them so Sonic can easily punish him.

Ganondorf's F-air is the only one with consistent lag. More dedicated Ganondorf players know which aerials can handle which heights from jumps, and I believe there's even a thread on that. Thunderstorming (SH lagless d-air) works surprisingly well as a mindgame/kill move against light characters at high %'s, or even just a surprise killshot.

Sonic vs Ganandorf is an advantage for Sonic because he can approach, mindgame and punish Ganandorf heavily. The only time he has problems is when its a walk off stage and even then Sonic can rack up damage until he can KO Ganandorf or knock him to the edge.

Ganondorf's Flame Choke is his punisher/neutralizer though. There's no speed, aerials, projectiles, camping - none of that after he gets you with that move. After that grab, he has at least one guaranteed hit (standing d-tilt), should he choose to do it. After that, you land into the Ganondorf's mindgame field, and that differs between players. Sure, it's only one move, and it's punishable, but one slip-up is all he needs.

=========

None of that is to say that I'm a very good Ganondorf player, but that's just there to show what a good Ganondorf player could possibly do ._.;

=========

On the topic of some Character matchups:

Mother's boys
- Ness/Lucas can be gimped by dropping a spring on their PK thunder, or slowed down by dropping a spring in front of their PKT2 (electric body slam)

Wolf
- If possible, take him off level. His up-B drops him almost straight vertically after it ends, so there's little-to-no "float" sideways if it ends near the edge.

Metaknight
- It looks like D-air has priority on Metaknight's Tornado, enough for you to break through at least one hit. However, you should aim correctly so that you hit MK inside his tornado. If you miss, you'll still get caught.
- You can drop springs on Metaknight during his tornado.
- When going against a Tornado, try to make it go upwards, then drop down. It seems it has problems adjusting to height, and you can punish him as he's landing.
- Mindgame/counter: Against a slightly-midair/rising Tornado, if you use a grounded spring, it will cancel the Tornado. If you use it near the beginning of MK's tornado, he's very likely to turn it into a side-B. Can you imagine the evil when you're near the edge? ._.;
Reason: Rising tornado going to the right is:
{B}>[hold right]+{B}{B}{B}{B}...
so if it gets cancelled, it turns into a side-B lol. made my brother suicide with this xD


- F-tilt can outrange alot of MK's slashes.

Snake/Samus:
- Sonic's N-air can break their missiles/explosives (Snake up-smash, Samus forward B) without taking any damage.

 

[TwinkleToes]

That tornado cancel via spring is pretty interesting, and a good counter to people that like to tornado spam. NOOBS TAKE NOTE OF THAT SO YOU DON'T GET YOUR *** HANDED TO YOU BY SCRUB METAKNIGHTS.

 

[darkNES386]

Otherwise Sonic can control the flow of the match with his speed and mixups if he can easily get through Wolf's wall of spam. Is he easier than the other two? I'm not sure, I don't have a tough time with Wolf so I guess it varies between the person. However, we can all agree that this will not be easy at all due to priority alone.

I have beaten a larger percentage of the wolf users than fox/falco. Well... I've also played more wolfs than both foxes and falcos put together... so who knows. I know a couple wolf users that regularly beat people and I want to get some footage up of how I handle them since it seems to be a hot topic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I like Ganondorf and all, but I have to agree, most of those arguments assume a really newbie Sonic or have false assumptions ._.;

I was quoting you and I saw gannon banned.
Were you around on GF when that happened?

Ganondorf's F-air is the only one with consistent lag. More dedicated Ganondorf players know which aerials can handle which heights from jumps, and I believe there's even a thread on that. Thunderstorming (SH lagless d-air) works surprisingly well as a mindgame/kill move against light characters at high %'s, or even just a surprise killshot.

Ahh wasn't too sure about the Dair since my timing with the Dair hasn't been too consistent and I find if I screw u slightly I end up lagging on the ground.
Not to mention there is the fact that other than his Uair and Bair it isn't hard to see the Fair and Dair coming. Regardless Sonic shouldn't be trying to fight close combat, as I mentioned its moreof pressuring.

Ganondorf's Flame Choke is his punisher/neutralizer though. There's no speed, aerials, projectiles, camping - none of that after he gets you with that move. After that grab, he has at least one guaranteed hit (standing d-tilt), should he choose to do it. After that, you land into the Ganondorf's mindgame field, and that differs between players. Sure, it's only one move, and it's punishable, but one slip-up is all he needs.

True but the problem is that unlike Sonic Ganandorf can't retain the advantage he has there. If he pulls off the choke yes he gets a free hit in but it isn't as if he can continously pressure you. if you're sonic you're up B is excellent for getting away especially since it apparently has SA frames. Granted Ganandorf can get a surprise kill but Sonic shouldn't be getting hit too often and really should not try to engage Ganandorf in close combat. This goes the same for Ike who IMO is more dangeruos than Ganandorf due to his reach,

None of that is to say that I'm a very good Ganondorf player, but that's just there to show what a good Ganondorf player could possibly do ._.;

Don't worry I think you're very knowledgable.

On the topic of some Character matchups:

Mother's boys
- Ness/Lucas can be gimped by dropping a spring on their PK thunder, or slowed down by dropping a spring in front of their PKT2 (electric body slam)

One thing to add though is that their ground game is superior to Sonic. He really has to stick to the air when fighting them and even then it can be dangerous due to his low priority.

Wolf
- If possible, take him off level. His up-B drops him almost straight vertically after it ends, so there's little-to-no "float" sideways if it ends near the edge.

Spin dodging works well too. I find if you stay just outside his range and spinshot just as he shoots. You can get behind him and Bair him but the timing needs to be precise.

Metaknight

Snake/Samus:
- Sonic's N-air can break their missiles/explosives (Snake up-smash, Samus forward B) without taking any damage.

The Dair is also good for breaking through Snake's Usmash and you'll get to the ground quickly to punish Snake.
Forward B is good for approach and breaks through nearly all of Samus' projectiles and runs through everything Snake has other than mines.