Should anti-trip be a choice for tourney sets?

[Zankoku]

Let's try to avoid the petty insults and cynical remarks, please.

 

[deepseadiva]

Or at least match the marginal effort I put into my own trolling. Boo Dekar boooooo.

 

[T-block]

Logistically, it doesn't make sense for a ruleset to allow for a choice. If one player wants tripping and the other doesn't, who wins? The ruleset is there to settle such disputes. If both players agreed, there's no harm in allowing it (except for out-of-gameplay reasons, such as saved replays to be recorded later would desync on an unhacked wii, plus as a TO I'd be pretty pissed if players wasted time rebooting the Wii to turn off tripping before playing a game, and then it might not get reset later, etc. etc.), following the same line of thinking that allows two players to agree to a stage that would otherwise not be allowed.

 

[Ussi]

Slippery slope

Why stop at tripping?

 

[Ripple]

Slippery slope

Why stop at tripping?

because I don't think ANY competitive brawler likes it.

 

[Ussi]

Aerial characters seem to like it. People who fight ic too


Edit: i for one hate tripping. If a TO can manage to not lose his head with making sure there are no other codes on, then by all means do it. I don't think people are going to quit the game just cause there is no tripping.. So its not as game changing as other gameplay hacks (changing damage/physics/etc)

But its still a gameplay hack :|

 

[Dekar173]

Logistically, it doesn't make sense for a ruleset to allow for a choice. If one player wants tripping and the other doesn't, who wins?

I already beat that argument though.

If Team A wants ports 2 and 3, and Team B ALSO wants ports 2 and 3, what happens?

As for anti-trip, you'd have anti-trip setups, obviously, not switch back and forth. That's ********.

 

[T-block]

So you want to RPS for whether tripping is turned on or off? x.x

Anti-trip setups would be an absolute nightmare for the TO. Players would then be entitled to requesting for a match to be played on a setup, potentially delaying the tournament, etc. etc.

 

[Browny]

No, its not fair to anyone who doesnt agree.

Imagine if a tennis grand slam had one match where both players agreed to a Bo3 instead of 5. They are no longer playing the same game as everyone else who paid to enter, whether the outcome changes is irrelevant. This will only, fairly, lead to a total removal on tripping which is arguably going too far.

 

[Akaku94]

It's a slippery slope scenario: the strict rule is "no gameplay-altering hacks," and tripping is as much a game mechanic as teching or a random stage hazard.

 

[Life]

As much as tripping sucks, it is in fact a part of game balance. By removing tripping, you buff characters that need to dash a lot (like Sonic) and nerf characters that don't dash much (like Snake).

A better comparison would be TF2 crits. (I've never played TF2, it's just a comparison I ran across once and it seemed legit.)

 

[Ussi]

Since we're removing tripping, what about removing hitboxes from hazards? Or heck turning off hazards! Imagine norfair with no hazards~

 

[Dekar173]

A better comparison would be TF2 crits. (I've never played TF2, it's just a comparison I ran across once and it seemed legit.)

Here's why you're bad for making that comparison.

Initiate dash- trip randomly. Why was I dashing? To punish my opponent! What happened instead? I got put in a bad spot.

Shoot opponent- get crit. Why was I attacking someone in TF2? To hurt them! What happened? I shot them, landed the shot, and got rewarded for it.



They're two completely different ballparks.

How about instead of TF2 crits we call it TF2 BACKFIRES- the gun backfires and shoots YOU in the face instead of your opponent (even though you were aiming at him!)

Is that very competitive?

 

[Atomsk_92]

Some of these responses are just hilarious. There's nothing wrong with having this ruling as optional.

 

[Judo777]

Gonna maybe say the slippery slope argument? If you take out tripping, why stop there? If both players agree maybe take out Luigi's missfire or random stage elements like the ghost platform and the balloon or make halberd always use the same hazards in a certain order?

If both people think its fair take out the bug in Ganon's fair that makes it not ever auto-cancel. Or the earthbound kids GR weakness.

I just think stepping into the realm of altering the game that affect play mid match is a step we don't want to take.

Just my opinion.

 

[Dekar173]

Gonna maybe say the slippery slope argument? If you take out tripping, why stop there? If both players agree maybe take out Luigi's missfire or random stage elements like the ghost platform and the balloon or make halberd always use the same hazards in a certain order?

If both people think its fair take out the bug in Ganon's fair that makes it not ever auto-cancel. Or the earthbound kids GR weakness.

I just think stepping into the realm of altering the game that affect play mid match is a step we don't want to take.

Just my opinion.

It's like none of you guys actually took middle school english classes or anything.

It's not the "Slippery Slope ARGUMENT" it's the "Slippery Slope FALLACY" meaning it's a BAD argument.

Brawl community- holy **** go to school.

 

[Browny]

imo extend this rule to metaknight.

I will lol so hard if people remove tripping before mk. Which one is more detrimenttal to competition rofl.

 

[link2702]

the simple fact of the matter is like others have said;

it requires everyone to hack/mod their wiis

and that woudl be pretty much impossible to do at large tournaments.

 

[Tesh]

Its a part of the game whether you like it or not. You can't just turn off random events because it annoys you. If the official ruleset support hacking out random events, what about trip rates on dtilts? What about special moves that have random effects? What if I'm annoyed by those random events?

Tripping isn't the only random event that can decide matches. Its just currently the most noticeable one.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Making tripping optional implies that it's an insignificant factor in a match. For we would not make it optional unless it was truly insignificant. Texture hacks for example are optional in tournaments because people feel it's insignificant most of the time. If you have an issue with it, it can be turned off.

However, if we agree that tripping is a rather inconsequential mechanic most of the time, cannot you simply leave it in and save yourself the hassle of trying to remove it? Along with any quarrels people might have about wanting to use it or not?

It's just easier to keep it in rather than having to bother giving the situation attention. Poor excuse, but w/e. Tripping is a small game play mechanic, we dislike it, but it isn't a huge game changer for most of the matches played. We have gotten used to it for a couple years now, staying accustomed to it won't kill us.

 

[Arcansi]

Poor excuse, but w/e.

^ Is what I'm getting from 90% of the anti.

You know what's almost identical to removing tripping? Not doing SD.

But, on a different point, you know what the true difference between removing tripping and turning of items is?

Sakurai's decisions.

You guys are basing your whole (pretty much) argument off of "well Sakurai didn't say we should be able to do it, so let's not."

Does Sakurai really mean that much to you guys?

Sure, there are some usability arguments, but heck these can be raised over texture hacks also, and I see those being used in tourney sets.

 

[Ussi]

Hacking brawl does NOT require moding your wii -_-; all you need is a SD card and you can hack brawl on any wii via stacksmash



Tripping affects gameplay, people have lost matches because they tripped near the person they were fighting and got punished by it..



The only reason we want tripping gone is cause its unpleasant to watc, a hype killer, etc etc... Hmm sounds like me-*shot*

 

[Tesh]

its just as unfair to get hit by a gordo, bomb, misfire, or judgement

compare judgement to wario's fart. one has 100% predictable power, while the other one is luck based. if tripping is removed, maybe judgement should be removed or hacked as well.

 

[Dekar173]

its just as unfair to get hit by a gordo, bomb, misfire, or judgement

compare judgement to wario's fart. one has 100% predictable power, while the other one is luck based. if tripping is removed, maybe judgement should be removed or hacked as well.

Read the thread bud. You're just posting **** that's already been said, toooooo ignorantttttttt

 

[Tesh]

unless that makes me wrong, i dont care.

 

[Spelt]

On top of that, it's just a dumb*** slippery slope argument. Whoever's still using those should be forced into a concentration camp.

 

[Ussi]

its just as unfair to get hit by a gordo, bomb, misfire, or judgement

compare judgement to wario's fart. one has 100% predictable power, while the other one is luck based. if tripping is removed, maybe judgement should be removed or hacked as well.

All of those moves can lead to positive outcomes.

Judgement is intentional to use.

Tripping has no positive outcome for the one tripped. At worst, a minor inconvinence. Its always unintentional. Gordos have a high rate to be always be wary of, judgement is a niche, Peach's bomb helps Peach. (at least more often than hurt her)

Tripping punishes someone for dashing, and is never intentional.

 

[Tesh]

Judgement 1 punishes GnW for using Judgement. I won't go into the rarer situations where random moves hurt the user, but it happens.

The positive outcome of dashing is....successfully dashing. Not all random occurances have a small chance of being good. 99% of the time, dashing gives you the best outcome the move allows.

I understand that random things are annoying and it takes a little away from a test of skill in exchange for luck, but tripping isn't the only thing that does that. If I read a roll with GnW and punish with judgement, I would get a 1, damaging myself and leaving me wide open to get punished, or I could get a 9, most likely removing a stock from my opponent. Is tripping worse because the random factor is extremely small?

 

[Arcansi]

Judgement 1 punishes GnW for using Judgement. I won't go into the rarer situations where random moves hurt the user, but it happens.

The positive outcome of dashing is....successfully dashing. Not all random occurances have a small chance of being good. 99% of the time, dashing gives you the best outcome the move allows.

I understand that random things are annoying and it takes a little away from a test of skill in exchange for luck, but tripping isn't the only thing that does that. If I read a roll with GnW and punish with judgement, I would get a 1, damaging myself and leaving me wide open to get punished, or I could get a 9, most likely removing a stock from my opponent. Is tripping worse because the random factor is extremely small?

The first thing I thought when I heard brawl was being hacked was "Hey, maybe they'll do what Nintendo would've done if they wanted Brawl to be competitive and patch the game, albeit with mostly likeable changes because they'll have to, but it'll be better then before."

Then I realized you guys didn't do ****.

I STILL don't know why, but it's not worth my time, as people here have a tendency to both ignore me and not seem to want to break the status quo (this may just be whoever actually does the rules not doing anything, but then why do they do the rules?)

But hey, right here I see an easily implementable option that reduces rng in our game and makes it more competitive.

While it's nothing compared to what you could have done, why don't we start taking steps in the right direction, eh community?

 

[Ghostbone]

Slippery Slope is only a fallacy when used incorrectly.

In this case it's not used incorrectly, as taking out tripping is as much as a balance change as anything else.
And it's ****ing stupid to force players to play a different game than Brawl at a Brawl tourney (which is what could happen if one player wants to play brawl with tripping, and the other doesn't)

 

[WindMajor]

People seem to be not understanding what I'm saying (which happens when you can't read good and stuff and need to go to a school to learn to read good and other stuff).

This is not me demanding that anti-trip be the new standard. This is me suggesting that anti-trip should be a choice on set-ups at tournaments, whereas the Unity Ruleset suggests ABSOLUTELY NO "game-changing" hacks.

As in, half of the Wiis in the venue have Brawl hacked with anti-tripping (I'll call it mBrawl), and the other half is regular Brawl (vBrawl)? If not, clarify it again for me.

Anyways, if that's the case, then we present ourselves with some issues.

1. You're running two different games under one tournament. You have an event for Super Smash Bros Brawl, but under this event, you can play two different games, mBrawl, and vBrawl.

This would be the equivalent of saying, "This is a Super Smash Bros Brawl tournament", but half the setups are of vBrawl and the other half is Mario Party 6. This would also be the equivalent of playing Brawl with two rulesets, one with 13 stages, and one with 26 stages. Two different games being played under the same event.

2. The division in setups can hold back tournaments. For example, There are 6 setups, 3 vBrawl, and 3 mBrawl. Lets say that I want to play vBrawl, and everyone agrees, but all the vBrawl setups are taken, but there are 2 mBrawl setups left over. I would either have to wait for a vBrawl setup to become available again (hold up the tournament), or I could remove the hacks from an mBrawl setup and play vBrawl (hold up the tournament very slightly).

3. Hacks like this can be abused in the sense that you could THINK you're playing vBrawl, but you're actually playing mBrawl (or vice versa), since the differences can only be noticed once the game is started (which might be too late).

In the previous example, I said that someone might have taken off the hacks of an mBrawl setup and changed it to vBrawl. What if they didn't put it back? Players would expect that setup to be an mBrawl setup, and they'll **** bricks when they see their character randomly trip. That's time wasted right there.

4. Like AZ said, doing this sort of thing would open up Pandora's box. Why stop at fixing tripping? Let's balance out Toon Link! His bombs are now instant kill. But why stop there? This game is now Brawl+!!! Now everything is balanced to a T.

5. Giving players the option to choose between games in a forced manner (RPS or GaW Ports) is horribly unfair. Just imagine how bad it would be if someone who didn't want to play on mBrawl was forced to play it because of a failed RPS game. Removing tripping isn't an option in vBrawl, but with cheats, you could do so, changing the game into a completely different game. Or to better illustrate my point, just imagine being forced to play Brawl with TL's bombs being instant kill instead of vBrawl. Or being forced to play Brawl- instead of Brawl. Or what about Mario Party 6? Or an SMB1 speed run? Or hide and seek?

Same could also be said about running alternating rulesets. Again, gambling between two different games when we're clearly supposed to be testing our skills in one.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So many horrible, horrible responses to a sensible idea.

This should be an option upon agreement with both players.

 

[Ghostbone]

So many horrible, horrible responses to a sensible idea.

This should be an option upon agreement with both players.

/Didn't read what anyone said.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I read everything, hence my "So many horrible, horrible responses" comment.

 

[WindMajor]

So many horrible, horrible responses to a sensible idea.

This should be an option upon agreement with both players.

We should also be able to play hide and seek instead of Brawl upon agreement with both players.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

LOL that would make such an amazingly fun side event XD

 

[Ghostbone]

I read everything, hence my "So many horrible, horrible responses" comment.

Did you read Twinkie's post, or AZ's post, which specifically talk about why it being optional is unviable?

 

[-LzR-]

Even if Brawl had a feature that your character had a 1/100 chance to just explode and die when using a special move, I would be fine with it. It would be kinda dumb, totally related to chance and different character mind it more. Whatever it is, it's Brawl. Deal with it
/my 2 cents

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Let's just all play Balanced Brawl.

The thing is I'm fully serious.

 

[ElDominio]

lolpost

I though you would have locked this crap thread by now.

OP, you obviously play Melee and want to give Brawl a try, but if tripping holds you back from doing so, just keep playing Melee!

This discussion has been made like 60,000,000 times before and there's no reason to bring it up.