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Should anti-trip be a choice for tourney sets?

B.A.M.

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I cant believe people are really comparing vBrawl and brawl without tripping to vBrawl and Mario Party. Thats the most absurd argument Ive ever heard in my life. Why would someone go from taking out tripping to making Toon Links bomb OHKO? That logic is ridiculous. You are all seriously busting out dumb extremes. You know..... now that I think of it, Ive never seen Euro Players trip...........

Seriously though, this really should be an option if both players agree to it. Iono why people are equating tripping to G&W judgement Hammer. This is really dumb lol. Brawl Players fighting for Tripping.

The ONLY argument I could see is reinforcing this, straight up. Im sure theres tons of people who have played Brawl with no tripping on and didnt even realize.

' HEY DEKAR MY SUBSPACE EMISSARY ALLOWS ME TO PLAY GIGA BOWSER, THIS ISNT BRAWLS ANYMORSs'
 

Dekar173

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I though you would have locked this crap thread by now.

OP, you obviously play Melee and want to give Brawl a try, but if tripping holds you back from doing so, just keep playing Melee!

This discussion has been made like 60,000,000 times before and there's no reason to bring it up.
Lol you obviously don't go to tourneys.

Tripping is anti-competitive- hence. I want to get rid of it. Plain and simple. I don't want my set, at a tournament I'm spending $400 to attend, to be determined by luck. You, being a bad player, may want that to be the case, but I actually take this game seriously, so that's the last thing I want.
 

Dekar173

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As in, half of the Wiis in the venue have Brawl hacked with anti-tripping (I'll call it mBrawl), and the other half is regular Brawl (vBrawl)? If not, clarify it again for me.

Anyways, if that's the case, then we present ourselves with some issues.

1. You're running two different games under one tournament. You have an event for Super Smash Bros Brawl, but under this event, you can play two different games, mBrawl, and vBrawl.

It's not two different games, it's the same game, except the random tripping one has a chance of differing from what people are inputting.

This would be the equivalent of saying, "This is a Super Smash Bros Brawl tournament", but half the setups are of vBrawl and the other half is Mario Party 6. This would also be the equivalent of playing Brawl with two rulesets, one with 13 stages, and one with 26 stages. Two different games being played under the same event.

Horrible argument. It'd be more like half the setups are similar to Mario Party 6, and the other half are hacked. Again, no it wouldn't be like playing with 13 stages and 26. A lot of stages in Brawl are anti-competitive, whereas taking away tripping is 100% competitive.

2. The division in setups can hold back tournaments. For example, There are 6 setups, 3 vBrawl, and 3 mBrawl. Lets say that I want to play vBrawl, and everyone agrees, but all the vBrawl setups are taken, but there are 2 mBrawl setups left over. I would either have to wait for a vBrawl setup to become available again (hold up the tournament), or I could remove the hacks from an mBrawl setup and play vBrawl (hold up the tournament very slightly).

The only reason anyone would want to play on the vBrawl setup is because they think it would give them a better chance of winning. I don't give a **** whether I win or lose. I want my set to be determined by skill- not random chance. Also, if that "skill" involves me getting hit by a judgment from a G&W- SO BE IT, I could have AVOIDED the judgment.

3. Hacks like this can be abused in the sense that you could THINK you're playing vBrawl, but you're actually playing mBrawl (or vice versa), since the differences can only be noticed once the game is started (which might be too late).

No, because the setup would obviously say its hacked, or you would be notified beforehand by the TO of the hacked wiis presence.

In the previous example, I said that someone might have taken off the hacks of an mBrawl setup and changed it to vBrawl. What if they didn't put it back? Players would expect that setup to be an mBrawl setup, and they'll **** bricks when they see their character randomly trip. That's time wasted right there.

Time wasted is one of your arguments, that's pretty ****ing ********. Tournaments don't finish on time due to poor TOs and lack of wiis, not the rulesets.

4. Like AZ said, doing this sort of thing would open up Pandora's box. Why stop at fixing tripping? Let's balance out Toon Link! His bombs are now instant kill. But why stop there? This game is now Brawl+!!! Now everything is balanced to a T.

Are you ********? Do you like just reading half a post then replying to entire threads? This statement has already been addressed, and since you obviously don't understand it's a logical fallacy I'm going to have to assume you're either a dropout, or too young to have taken any classes that address arguments and logical fallacies.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html


5. Giving players the option to choose between games in a forced manner (RPS or GaW Ports) is horribly unfair. Just imagine how bad it would be if someone who didn't want to play on mBrawl was forced to play it because of a failed RPS game. Removing tripping isn't an option in vBrawl, but with cheats, you could do so, changing the game into a completely different game. Or to better illustrate my point, just imagine being forced to play Brawl with TL's bombs being instant kill instead of vBrawl. Or being forced to play Brawl- instead of Brawl. Or what about Mario Party 6? Or an SMB1 speed run? Or hide and seek?

Imagine if someone is paired up against a Snake player, and they're forced to take port 1, simply due to rock paper scissors.

Also, none of these other things you mention make sense whatsoever. Tripping is anti-competitive- how can you support it? Have you ever seen an entire tournament's outcome determined by tripping? Do you even play Brawl? Are you even a person?


Same could also be said about running alternating rulesets. Again, gambling between two different games when we're clearly supposed to be testing our skills in one.


If your concern is testing skill then you should have no problem with the CHOICE of removing tripping.
Answers to your awful reasoning (which has already been responded to in other posts) in red. Learn to read the thread.
 

B.A.M.

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@ Dekar: Thank goodness someone has some edjumacation. Seriously, I question the intellect of our community every day.
 

Strong Badam

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why do you guys keep desperately trying to make this game competitive
it's obvious in this thread that over half of you don't care if the game is competitive or not.
 

Strong Badam

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good . though that's not usually how I'd react to someone on my side in a debate/discussion.
 

SaveMeJebus

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So because they remove some random elements (lowering accuracy or raising evasion, 50% chance of instant KO) but not others, Pokémon players don't complain at all?

btw
Freeze Clause
Two or more Pokemon on a team cannot be frozen at the same time.

Sleep Clause
Two or more Pokemon on a team cannot be asleep at the same time. Self-induce sleep via Rest does not activate Sleep Clause.

Yes, these mechanics are enforced in Shoddy2/PO by reducing chance of causing Sleep or Freeze to 0%.
They have those options in mutiplayer battles. It's not something that they just added in Shoddy2/PO. I don't see how banning attacks like that is any different from us banning items
 

Dekar173

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good . though that's not usually how I'd react to someone on my side in a debate/discussion.
I care more about the Smash community than a debate over options in this game. You are a detriment to Brawl, and pride yourself in being so. Take a look at SC v SC2 for how to properly act when a new game is introduced to the scene.
 

Kuro~

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We argued about this quite a bit, and the end thinking is that condoning the trip hack steps our foot in territory that should likely be stayed away from. The line is already getting blurred with texture and music hacks, as well as infinite replays, but those hacks are within the boundaries of being cosmetic and not actually effecting the physics of the game. If you start to allow hacks that effect the physics of the game, you could potentially be opening a pandora's box.

As an aside, having the rule expressly against tripping also saves some hassle. I remember back at Pound 4 me and Y.b.M. were suppose to play Ninjalink's team. NL has had occasionally used Ice Climbers, and in addition to that Kirby is mostly an aerial character and my movement was largely with dribbling, so tripping would only minimally effect our team. To shorten the story, we had to insist with NL not to play on his trip-less Wii and had to justify our cause not to play on it and wasted a good 5-10 minutes arguing before we could even sit down for the match to start. At Pound 4 hacked Wii's could be requested not to be played on, but even though the rule was in our favor it was still a headache and caused a waste of time.

No tripping only affects tripping caused by dashing/moving. It doesn't effect move induced trips at all. Or bananas. So what is the problem?

WE ALL KNOW TRIPPING IS A TERRIBLE MECHANIC that simply has NO PURPOSE. I think it should be allowed if ppl agree to it.

Ik florida has jumped on the no tripping bandwagon. We've had several tourneys where we made sure every wii had no tripping by soft hacking(which does nothing to the wii) and posting on the tourney thread to make sure ppl who are bringing setups adds the code. But for nationals i can understand the problem. But for regionals and locals...seems like a pointless rule.
 

Strong Badam

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I care more about the Smash community than a debate over options in this game. You are a detriment to Brawl, and pride yourself in being so. Take a look at SC v SC2 for how to properly act when a new game is introduced to the scene.
neither of our games have proper online. try again
 

Kuro~

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What's soft hacking?
There's a way to simply put an sd card in a non-hacked wii and load it with no tripping only(or whatever other codesets you had like inf. replay and show tags)

Texture and music hax are not included whatsoever and no programs like homebrew are required afaik.
 

Dekar173

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neither of our games have proper online. try again
Both games have online interaction, it's kind of the hub we're communicating through right now. If you want to continue our petty argument on why you are bad for the Melee/Brawl communities feel free to PM me.

As for anti-trip's arguments-

1. It'll lead to other things happening.

Slippery Slope.

2. It is too difficult to implement.

No, it's about as difficult as getting enough setups for a tournament.

3. It's not playing the game it was meant to be played.

Sakurai designed Metaknight to be better than the rest of the cast, PUT TRIPPING IN, and refused to support MLG/the competitive community- do we care what Sakurai has to say?

4. It's not the same game.

Suppose you're playing a tournament set, and neither you, or your opponent, trip the ENTIRE set. Did you even notice?

5. It's unfair to make RPS determine how the game is played.

Port selection, it wouldn't be such a big deal to people (I play RPS before every single match, always because the opponent wants to) if it weren't important.
 

ElDominio

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Lol you obviously don't go to tourneys.

Tripping is anti-competitive- hence. I want to get rid of it. Plain and simple. I don't want my set, at a tournament I'm spending $400 to attend, to be determined by luck. You, being a bad player, may want that to be the case, but I actually take this game seriously, so that's the last thing I want.
LoL since you know our scene you obviously know I never go to tourneys I'm just like SMJ.

Idiot. Maybe if you had something to back up your claims I'd take your word.

In short, I do go to tourneys, and it's too bad you ate an FSmash to a trip. I'm really sad that you were hurt enough to actually post a thread about it.

TO all the "pro" people here, it'd be awesome if we, as a community, showed the other ones that our game sucks so bad we need to modify it ourselves to have it be "competitive".

I can see it now, on SRK "LOL Smash faggits r so bad they had to resort to modding their crap game"

Great community we have, and just if.
Nintendo barely acknowledges the professional community, I'm 100% they'd support us even more if we started running tourneys with modified versions of Brawl as main events.


No, it's about as difficult as getting enough setups for a tournament.

No, it's not. There are some that don't want ANYTHING on their Wiis.

Sakurai designed Metaknight to be better than the rest of the cast, PUT TRIPPING IN, and refused to support MLG/the competitive community- do we care what Sakurai has to say?

We can at least try, and not give everyone who learned how to deal with tripping (QED, NOT YOU) a fair chance.

Suppose you're playing a tournament set, and neither you, or your opponent, trip the ENTIRE set. Did you even notice?

Yes! I'd be like "WTF??? Nobody tripped???"
 

PieDisliker

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Honestly the only comparision I could make no random tripping with would be playing on laggy TVs. It's gamechanging to an extent, it changes matchups (as button lag helps some characters over others), and it may improve or make brawl worse. At MLG, you were forced to play on TVs with more lag than you're used to. It wasn't really noticable to spectators, but it still made a difference. A few complained about it. The MLG results are still legit, right? IMO no tripping results or mixes between the two should be just as legit as brawl with tripping on.
 

Arcansi

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We should also be able to play hide and seek instead of Brawl upon agreement with both players.
If both players agree that this is a more suitable way to express their skill and wish to do so, they very well can (and just throw the Brawl game).

?

In short, I do go to tourneys, and it's too bad you ate an FSmash to a trip. I'm really sad that you were hurt enough to actually post a thread about it.
Oh, I'm sorry you lost your set because of an uncompetitive random chance that was completely uncompetitive.

You know, Unity likes to remove uncompetitive thinks (see: items), but they decided not to remove this just for kicks.

TO all the "pro" people here, it'd be awesome if we, as a community, showed the other ones that our game sucks so bad we need to modify it ourselves to have it be "competitive".

I can see it now, on SRK "LOL Smash faggits r so bad they had to resort to modding their crap game"
You...seem to care what other people think...

Wow, so your afraid of making our game more competitive because others will look at us differently for it? Really? (Not a Gameplay/Actual issue, I can't say anything here.)

Great community we have, and just if.
Nintendo barely acknowledges the professional community, I'm 100% they'd support us even more if we started running tourneys with modified versions of Brawl as main events.
You also seem to think Nintendo is ever going to support the competitive community of Brawl...

Idk how you come up with this, but I hope you stop soon.


No, it's not. There are some that don't want ANYTHING on their Wiis.
There are (easy) ways of doing it so nothing remains on your wii afterward.

We can at least try, and not give everyone who learned how to deal with tripping (QED, NOT YOU) a fair chance
Then why don't we legalize Picto, and give everyone who learned to deal with the random transformations a fair chance. Wait, I just realized you said we should try to listen to Sakurai.

Do you understand what Sakurai wants? An Uncompetitive game. /point.

Yes! I'd be like "WTF??? Nobody tripped???"
How many sets (with tripping on) would you like me to find where nobody trips. 10? 50?
 
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Infinite replay changes the game we're playing, but it's allowed.
It has absolutely no effect on gameplay. Your argument is stupid.

It's like none of you guys actually took middle school english classes or anything.

It's not the "Slippery Slope ARGUMENT" it's the "Slippery Slope FALLACY" meaning it's a BAD argument.

Brawl community- holy **** go to school.
No, actually, in this case it's not a fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Slippery_slope_arguments

Let's get a few things straight here. First off, our current status quo (as well as the one the game has placed in our hands) is "no tripping is not an option". So in order to change this, you have to give good reasons to do so. Unless I'm missing something, these are your arguments:

1. Everyone hates tripping
2. Tripping is random and therefore makes the game less competitive

Those are your reasons for removing tripping. Let's take them down bit by bit.

1. "Everyone hates something" is not a valid reason to change the ruleset, until the existence of this thing is alienating a massive swath of the playerbase (for example, even if Mario Bros is a completely legitimate stage, I'd still ban it because without a playerbase, there is no competition, and nobody wants to play a set on Mario Bros). Personal opinion is an incredibly weak argument.

2. So... the game is less competitive with tripping in it. But guess what: randomness is ingrained into Brawl. You apparently ignored the example of G&W's sideB, so how about a slightly more fitting example: Luigi's Green Missile.
When you dash, you expect to run forwards.
When you use Luigi's sideB, you expect to get a small horizontal boost with minor knockback.
If you trip, you can run into a charged smash, or otherwise get punished, hard.
If you misfire, you can miss your target, or end up too high/too far and end up getting gimped.
So, by this logic, we really should remove Luigi's misfire. Or hell, let me reformat this argument to fit G&W's sideB: when you use it, you expect to hit your opponent and knock him off his feet. When you get a 1, you will get punished on hit. So let's get rid of the 1 as well, and possibly 2.

Dekar, your argument against tripping is bad. Consequently applied, it leads to not just removing tripping, but also several other gameplay elements. But wait, it gets worse! What about all the other things in Brawl that are anti-competitive? Surely, brawl would be a better competitive game if Ganon was more viable, no? Well, his fair is supposed to autocancel. It's actually decidedly a game glitch; you can tell just by looking at the code that someone screwed up. So... let's fix it. Suddenly Ganon is more viable and the game is more competitive. Yay! DDD's infinite on DK... We could make it so that DDD can't regrab without dashing first, making DK more viable. More competitive depth! Yay!

Furthermore, what you seem to be forgetting is that tripping affects game balance! Even though Luigi and ICs are the only characters with an above-average trip chance (Luigi has a doubled chance; ICs are two at once), this doesn't mean that all the others are affected equally by tripping. Compare Peach's playstyle to Fox or Olimar's. See the problem? Peach almost never dashes. Fox and Olimar run almost everywhere. People have already mentioned how crucial random tripping can be to Kirby vs. Olimar. Removing tripping ****s with game balance in a way that cannot be allowed.

At a certain point, the game stops being Brawl. It becomes something else. Tampering with the game's mechanics is simply not okay. Never mind the logistical hassle (especially on PAL wiis), brawl without tripping is just not the same game, and at that point, where hacks become the standard, why not play a fully hacked, balanced version that is simply a better game? Hell, we have like 3 fully ready ones, with one more coming out gradually, that we could use, one of which even mirrors brawl's basic gameplay to a T! So... Why not just go straight for that if you want to get rid of tripping?
 

Arcansi

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It has absolutely no effect on gameplay. Your argument is stupid.



No, actually, in this case it's not a fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Slippery_slope_arguments

Let's get a few things straight here. First off, our current status quo (as well as the one the game has placed in our hands) is "no tripping is not an option". So in order to change this, you have to give good reasons to do so. Unless I'm missing something, these are your arguments:

1. Everyone hates tripping
2. Tripping is random and therefore makes the game less competitive

Those are your reasons for removing tripping. Let's take them down bit by bit.

1. "Everyone hates something" is not a valid reason to change the ruleset, until the existence of this thing is alienating a massive swath of the playerbase (for example, even if Mario Bros is a completely legitimate stage, I'd still ban it because without a playerbase, there is no competition, and nobody wants to play a set on Mario Bros). Personal opinion is an incredibly weak argument.

2. So... the game is less competitive with tripping in it. But guess what: randomness is ingrained into Brawl. You apparently ignored the example of G&W's sideB, so how about a slightly more fitting example: Luigi's Green Missile.
When you dash, you expect to run forwards.
When you use Luigi's sideB, you expect to get a small horizontal boost with minor knockback.
If you trip, you can run into a charged smash, or otherwise get punished, hard.
If you misfire, you can miss your target, or end up too high/too far and end up getting gimped.
So, by this logic, we really should remove Luigi's misfire. Or hell, let me reformat this argument to fit G&W's sideB: when you use it, you expect to hit your opponent and knock him off his feet. When you get a 1, you will get punished on hit. So let's get rid of the 1 as well, and possibly 2.

Dekar, your argument against tripping is bad. Consequently applied, it leads to not just removing tripping, but also several other gameplay elements. But wait, it gets worse! What about all the other things in Brawl that are anti-competitive? Surely, brawl would be a better competitive game if Ganon was more viable, no? Well, his fair is supposed to autocancel. It's actually decidedly a game glitch; you can tell just by looking at the code that someone screwed up. So... let's fix it. Suddenly Ganon is more viable and the game is more competitive. Yay! DDD's infinite on DK... We could make it so that DDD can't regrab without dashing first, making DK more viable. More competitive depth! Yay!

Furthermore, what you seem to be forgetting is that tripping affects game balance! Even though Luigi and ICs are the only characters with an above-average trip chance (Luigi has a doubled chance; ICs are two at once), this doesn't mean that all the others are affected equally by tripping. Compare Peach's playstyle to Fox or Olimar's. See the problem? Peach almost never dashes. Fox and Olimar run almost everywhere. People have already mentioned how crucial random tripping can be to Kirby vs. Olimar. Removing tripping ****s with game balance in a way that cannot be allowed.

At a certain point, the game stops being Brawl. It becomes something else. Tampering with the game's mechanics is simply not okay. Never mind the logistical hassle (especially on PAL wiis), brawl without tripping is just not the same game, and at that point, where hacks become the standard, why not play a fully hacked, balanced version that is simply a better game? Hell, we have like 3 fully ready ones, with one more coming out gradually, that we could use, one of which even mirrors brawl's basic gameplay to a T! So... Why not just go straight for that if you want to get rid of tripping?
Hypothetical Situation: Someone finds through a nuance in the code that a random button combination opens up a menu that allows you to remove tripping, or change the percentage chance on dash.

What would happen? Would this argument even exist?

Or, the menu allows you to change all random elements in the game, including item spawn points and hazards in levels how much would we change?
Would spear pillar be a playable stage once hazards were removed?

What about Picto without any randomness?

Hmm?
 

Zankoku

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They have those options in mutiplayer battles. It's not something that they just added in Shoddy2/PO. I don't see how banning attacks like that is any different from us banning items
Ice Beam has a 10% chance of freezing. Technically, it still has a 10% chance of freezing even if the opponent already has a frozen Pokémon.

Or, more relevantly, Spore has a 100% chance of causing sleep regardless of how many Pokémon are asleep on the opponent's team.

Both of these chances are altered to 0% if there is already a frozen or asleep Pokémon, respectively, when the clauses are active. Neither of those attacks are actually banned from competitive play, they just suddenly lose their effects.

Sleep Clause is present and can be enabled or disabled in Pokémon Battle Revolution. Freeze Clause isn't.


Take a look at SC v SC2 for how to properly act when a new game is introduced to the scene.
You can't be serious.
 

Judo777

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It's like none of you guys actually took middle school english classes or anything.

It's not the "Slippery Slope ARGUMENT" it's the "Slippery Slope FALLACY" meaning it's a BAD argument.

Brawl community- holy **** go to school.
I'm going into my 4th year studying Mechanical Engineering at the University of Kentucky, English is unimportant to me because I would rather make lots of money.

Btw my favorite part of the post is the part where I gave my opinion and tried to be humble about it, then you dodged my point and insulted me. Thnx bud.
 
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Your funny.

Because you can't shoot me down when the only difference is a game screen.

I hope you understand where I'm going with this, and why it would appear I'm already there.
Yes. It's a damn shame we don't have this game screen. Look, I get the point you're trying to get at, but the fact is, there's a big ****ing difference between in-game setting alterations and out-of-game rulings. We removed planking, IDC, and the like because we absolutely had to. Tripping is not of the same desperation by any means.
 

John12346

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This is unrelated, but "No Tripping" has less enforceability issues than certain Brawl mods, like Plus, Minus, Balanced, and Project M.

- For the "No Tripping" code, you just load it up on each Wii, and you're good to go.
- For Brawl Mods, the SD Card needs to stay in the Wii for it to work properly, meaning that you need an extra SD Card for each extra Wii.

As far as my opinion, I think it probably would be better if we left the gameplay changing 1337 hax off, but I guess I'd be fine with it either way; I just wanted to point the above tidbit out.
 

infiniteV115

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If tripping isn't allowed, YI:B shouldn't be allowed either.

I'm not trying to state whether tripping should be allowed or not, I'm just saying that if you disallow that you should be banning YI:B as well. Both contain a random element which has the potential to ruin/ turn a match around completely, but do so rarely.
 

Zankoku

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If tripping isn't allowed, YI:B shouldn't be allowed either.

I'm not trying to state whether tripping should be allowed or not, I'm just saying that if you disallow that you should be banning YI:B as well. Both contain a random element which has the potential to ruin/ turn a match around completely, but do so rarely.
While I don't think the thread is about allowing tripping, I can assure you that I'm currently petitioning for a rule to disqualify anyone from tournament who randomly trips during a dash attempt.
 

Arcansi

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Yes. It's a damn shame we don't have this game screen. Look, I get the point you're trying to get at, but the fact is, there's a big ****ing difference between in-game setting alterations and out-of-game rulings. We removed planking, IDC, and the like because we absolutely had to. Tripping is not of the same desperation by any means.
1. The only difference is Sakurai. Unless you bring something else up, your argument is nothing.

Surgical rules make the game more competitive. So does this. It's not desperation such as 'O hey it's easy to do and makes our game better while not changing anything significant, so why not?'
 

Dekar173

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It has absolutely no effect on gameplay. Your argument is stupid.

It's still hacking the game and altering it. Under your definition, this is altering the game, and therefore should not be allowed..



No, actually, in this case it's not a fallacy.

2. Tripping is random and therefore makes the game less competitive

Dekar, your argument against tripping is bad. Consequently applied, it leads to not just removing tripping, but also several other gameplay elements.

Really? Because when Luigi misfires, he goes into an airtumble animation? Or is it because when G&W uses his SideB and gets a 1, he automatically loses a stock?
Oh wait no it's because when Peach uses her downB, she has a chance of not pulling anything at all, right? No, I've got it! It's because D3 has a chance of breaking his own shield when he uses sideB!


But wait, it gets worse! What about all the other things in Brawl that are anti-competitive? Surely, brawl would be a better competitive game if Ganon was more viable, no? Well, his fair is supposed to autocancel. It's actually decidedly a game glitch; you can tell just by looking at the code that someone screwed up. So... let's fix it.

Ganondorf recently won a tournament- this point is moot.

Suddenly Ganon is more viable and the game is more competitive. Yay! DDD's infinite on DK... We could make it so that DDD can't regrab without dashing first, making DK more viable. More competitive depth! Yay!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbnTVF_CgEA

Furthermore, what you seem to be forgetting is that tripping affects game balance! Even though Luigi and ICs are the only characters with an above-average trip chance (Luigi has a doubled chance; ICs are two at once), this doesn't mean that all the others are affected equally by tripping. Compare Peach's playstyle to Fox or Olimar's. See the problem? Peach almost never dashes. Fox and Olimar run almost everywhere. People have already mentioned how crucial random tripping can be to Kirby vs. Olimar. Removing tripping ****s with game balance in a way that cannot be allowed.

I don't believe it will "**** with game balance" in such a way that it will break the game, at all, in fact, it will make it more competitive.

Initiate dash to punish tornado > trip > tornado goes unpunished

Did the MK make a mistake? Damn right he did. Did he get punished for it? Nope, not because the player messed up, but because the game disallowed him from doing so. That's not competitive.


At a certain point, the game stops being Brawl.

By removing tripping? Really? You've had at least one game where no one tripped. Did you get mad and say "OMFG WE WEREN'T PLAYING BRAWL REMATCH." ? I don't think so.

To go further on this point- if someone were to pick up a copy of Brawl without trips, and a copy of Brawl with trips, would they be forced to relearn ANY movesets, fallspeeds, or anything in the entire game? Anything at all???

It becomes something else. Tampering with the game's mechanics is simply not okay.
If this were the case, we wouldn't need a ruleset in the first place.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301032
Never mind the logistical hassle (especially on PAL wiis), brawl without tripping is just not the same game, and at that point, where hacks become the standard
I really hate when people sit here and ***** about me wanting anti-trip to be the standard, when that's not at all what I'm advocating. Do you completely forget how to read when you come onto SWF? "Anti-trip should be an option" is now "Anti-trip should be the ONLY option" in some bizarro world, I suppose.
why not play a fully hacked, balanced version that is simply a better game? Hell, we have like 3 fully ready ones, with one more coming out gradually, that we could use, one of which even mirrors brawl's basic gameplay to a T! So... Why not just go straight for that if you want to get rid of tripping?
Do you see this ever happening? Me neither. :)
I'm going into my 4th year studying Mechanical Engineering at the University of Kentucky, English is unimportant to me because I would rather make lots of money.

You went to middle school/high school at some point, and learned about logical fallacies, then completely disregarded everything stated... why? What harm could that knowledge cause you?

Btw my favorite part of the post is the part where I gave my opinion and tried to be humble about it, then you dodged my point and insulted me. Thnx bud.

My favorite part is where you were completely illogical, used a logical fallacy and considered it an argument, and disregarded everything posted in the thread prior to your own post.
Really guys, no one has once argued that tripping is competitive. If it isn't competitive- why is it not an option to remove it???
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
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Really guys, no one has once argued that tripping is competitive. If it isn't competitive- why is it not an option to remove it???
By this sentence, alternate costumes aren't competitive, yet the idea of removing them is only addressed in tangent.

With that said, I fully agree with no-tripping. Mandatory no-tripping is actually becoming a standard in Central Florida.
 

Flayl

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That sounds great against Olimar actually. Does C-stick backwards + Z risk tripping? Because if so there would be 2 trip opportunities for each pivot-grab
 

theunabletable

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The argument that this'll lead to character-changing hacks is akin to the argument that if we ban MK, we'll just end up banning the second best character next, and then the third best character, etc (I'm sure all of you have seen this one).

Frankly, even if it isn't "playing the same game" (I'd argue this, but I don't think it's even necessary), tripping is detrimental to our game, our community, and our tournaments. The sets bitterly lost because of a global 1-in-100 chance for something to happen if you perform an option, mind you it's an option that every other character in the game has, and in every other iteration from this series hasn't had this "backfire" effect with this global option.

In this case, saying that we'll end up removing misfires or something IS a fallacy. Turning off random tripping doesn't rationally lead to turning off Luigi's misfire. Luigi's misfire is a 1-character thing, it only effects Luigi's matchups. Tripping effects every matchup on every stage in the game, it's completely global. That in itself makes it different from singular character changes.

If there was, for example, a 1-in-100 chance of, when you input a grounded jump, during your jumpsquat animation (that's the animation before you leave the ground), you could sprain your calf muscle, and have to recover for a second or two before you could move. Now if this were in the game, and we removed tripping, that would rationally lead to removing the jumpsquat-sprains. They're both global changes.

Removing jumpsquat sprains wouldn't lead to us rebalancing the game how we see fit. It just wouldn't lol.

Like

christ that's just so completely wrong

We shouldn't even need to justify all this. This is what our thought process should probably be like, regarding this:
"Oh tripping seems to be detrimental to our health as a community. It gives a random chance for a global option, one that wasn't like this in the previous 2 iterations of the series, to suddenly allow you to take damage or lose a stock, instead of getting what should be a guaranteed punish. Sets have been lost to universal random chance, money has been lost, worse players have beaten better players. This is clearly detrimental to our community's health, and we have the power to get rid of it easily. Arbitrarily changing the game shouldn't matter in the face of our community being better off."
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
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I don't think global changes make the same difference globally, in terms of matchups.
 

Akaku94

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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483
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No MUs truly rely on trips, so the Olimar-Kirby argument is out.

But I do think that tripping, as a game mechanic, is as much a part of the game as any random stage element (YI:B cloud or Picto transformations), and since it affects characters unequally (Peach/Fox), removing tripping would be a slight buff for characters that dash more, and therefore a slight nerf for characters that rarely dash. An inherent character strength that Jigglypuff has is that it practically never dashes, meaning that it practically never trips. Luigi is twice as likely to trip, and that is an inherent character weakness. Any buff or nerf, however light or insignifigant, should be out of the question.
 

Akaku94

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Neither does L-canceling. This is Super Smash Brothers Brawl, and it shouldn't be expected to play just like Melee. Dash-dancing isn't a good strategy in Brawl because of tripping, and that's the way the game is designed.
 

Judo777

Smash Master
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Dekar luigis misfire animation kills BOTH himself and his opponent on a regular basis. When luigi misfires not only is his trajectory lengthened but he is unable to control himself for longer. This is awful. One of the luigi mains in kentucky says luigis misfire is one of his larger weaknesses. Misfire can also cause him to stick into the stage and is almost always an instant stock. Conversely Luigis misfire can kill people at 50 who otherwise would have got a free punish.

So wait your point was Ganon won a tournament..... so his fair isn't messed up????? Or are you saying that Ganon is a fine character without the fair the designers intended? Because he ISN'T a fine character. Sure you can possibly win a tournament if you outplay the piss out of everyone, but check his MU's having no even or adv. MU's is a problem if you ask me.

And regardless of how many clips you show of DK beating a D3 (maybe the one or 2 you an manage to find) doesn't change the fact that D3 makes DK very un-viable. Like it's scaring me because your starting to post like jebus which makes me facepalm hardcore. Fixing the infinite on DK would CERTAINLY balance out the MU a decent amount, you really have no leg to stand on.

Btw my middle school didn't teach logical fallacies so guess what? your wrong again.

MK accidentally tornados offstage and dies, then ghost platform pops up and saves him! Did he make a mistake? yes. Did it go unpunished? yes. Is it your fault? no. its the games. Same can be said for anything random.

btw I have absolutely no stance on this argument, however because you decided to be such a douche bag in the past I'll gladly point out whats incorrect about your post.
 
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