Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Eddie G]

When I say I "can't do something", I don't mean that I can't learn by playing people. I mean that I can't do this because there is nobody around me who plays smash on such a level and I do not have a car. The first part of your response, while it is true, was made with a misunderstanding, potentially because I wasn't clear.

And yes, while MK is obviously better than those characters, the point originally made is that the numbers do not matter unless it is obvious that one character is dominant over the other. Correct me if I'm wrong and that wasn't the idea you were conveying earlier. I understood your post to say that the numbers do not matter unless you're in a clear situation such as that, but now you're saying that it's down to the individual player, so I don't know if you're making a change in your argument or if I'm misreading or what.

Bottom line: match-up numbers, if they don't matter overall, should not matter in the case of MK.

I would go back to re-read what you said to make sure I got what you're saying, but I'm on a ****ty connection and I don't remember where it was.

I suppose I did misunderstand your point about "not being able to do something". Sorry about that.

I'm starting to get hungry and will head out soon so I will summarize my case as best as I can. I know my wording can be a little confusing at times which can potentially make my posts seem very unclear.

Here goes:
I am arguing that predetermined matchup numbers aren't very important because there are two things that make them ultimately inaccurate and/or irrelevant when it comes to the match at hand.

1. I claim that matchup numbers aren't important in the case of MK vs. D tier and below because it is visually clear that MK completely outclasses all of these characters. Matchup numbers aren't even needed to see who is dominant in the matchup; It is obvious that MK is.

2. I also claim that matchup numbers aren't important in the case of MK vs SOME of C tier and above because at high levels of play it really does come down to the players' performance in the actual match at hand and their own personal comfort with the matchup. My example is that Leepuff claims the GnW/MK matchup to be 50/50, but not all other GnW players (top or not) claim the same; The same applies to Atomsk's claim that the DDD/MK matchup is 50/50. These are their own beliefs on the matchups because of their own personal comfort and experience with them. The difficulty of the matchups are subjective to the individual players, which in turn makes any predetermined matchup numbers inaccurate and/or irrelevent to the actual match at hand. It gets hard to numerically judge the matchups between the higher tier characters at a top level of play because it really does come down to the players. The difference of opinion between top level players on matchup difficulty proves it.

I never said that matchup numbers are totally irrelevant in all cases excluding MK; That was never part of my argument. My argument pertains to the unimportance of matchup numbers in general, and applies to the entire roster.

 

[Ru-fi-o]

Because not everyone is trying to win money. Stop jumping the gun and generalizing posts.

Then what the **** do you care about how you place? Do you wanna be known? Are you lacking friends?

You can go to a tourn, lose and play friendlies. Moron

 

[Darxmarth23]

Ban him. Plz.

Lets see what happens.

 

[Mecakoto]

Ban G&W and MK and you might see some sort of change. Banning just metaknight even temporarily is absolutely ******** and nothing will change other than the rest of the top tiers winning MORE.

Why post it if you want it ignored.. lol

I see no reason to ban G&W. Do tell.

 

[Excellence]

I just talked to SamuraiPanda, the SBR has little to no pull on the Smash community, says him.

 

[Kamikaze*]

the last two polls were also in favor of the ban.

But I'm pretty sure that we have our share of people(not assuming everyone) who voted yes for the sole purpose that they find MK to be annoying.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I just talked to SamuraiPanda, the SBR has little to no pull on the Smash community, says him.

Wow that sucks. They are doing this for the game, not for the people.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah SF4 is much better people just run around with Sagat.

If you know Sagat will do something you can destroy him. Hard.

If you know MK is going to do anything, usually you won't be able to do jack **** about it due to the properties of his moves.

 

[Max Ketchum]

I love how people think MK bans will add diversity excluding the MK players switching characters. Name 5 viable characters whose worst matchup is MK, first one gets a drink on me.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I see no reason to ban G&W. Do tell.

Because of his super broken match up against Kirby.

@TheDoom-Uh, I see Marf mentioned a lot when it comes to that. Mirite?

 

[Excellence]

Then what the **** do you care about how you place? Do you wanna be known? Are you lacking friends?

You can go to a tourn, lose and play friendlies. Moron

You're smarter than everyone here? Really now? Even being as an intelligent as you claim to be you still aren't smart enough to know that I wasn't talking about myself in that post.

****ing moron.

 

[BentoBox]

@Blitz: The last 2 polls had the pro-ban side leading too. Nothing happened. SP introduces the conflict at hand and asks the community's opinion and then proceeds to stay the f out of this thread, along with the rest of the SBR. Really, this is pointless.

I bought SF4 too, loving it :D Though it's funny how people on SRK complain just as much about the game. Can't please everyone, eh.

Yeah SF4 is much better people just run around with Sagat.

The american scene isn't even being led by a Sagat.

 

[NeoCrono]

You guys all need to give up the ghost already.

Play SF4, BlazBlue, KoF XII, or SCIV.

Seriously.

Give it up already.

Those games are too hard for people to play, you cant just pick one of these games and be good at them lol

 

[Darxmarth23]

If you know Sagat will do something you can destroy him. Hard.

If you know MK is going to do anything, usually you won't be able to do jack **** about it due to the properties of his moves.

As I said, the six characteristics of a good move. And with MKs net speed, he has all of them.

 

[xDD-Master]

He should be banned all together. a Ban is a bann.

I have a messed up arm as was told I could not play basketball. for a while. So does this mean i can play soccer with no problem? No it does not. Cause I can still get some injury from it that can mess up my arm some more.

Again. Temp ban for 2 months I say. Now when you guys wanna decided when to bann him, up to you guys. But it is the only way to find out if he is the problem of not from stopping other characters from doing well. Cause from what I been hearning. No one stops him.

The back room really need to talk and take this into mind. do it and have updates from all over the USA on tournamwnt results. A good way is of course, Ankoku's thread.

I say someone get a message to the back room and have them do this. Decide when the temp ban will start and then check out tournament results. Only answer there is after this topic was made three times. He is obviously some problem. What problem that is? This will help discover it.

WHOBO should be occur again with same entrants, BUT with MK banned.

If Results will be like...

1: M2K
2: Dojo
3: DSF
4: Lee Martin
5: Tyrant
5: Co18
7: Domo
7: Melee1

... MK wasnt the Problem, it were the player's skills.

If the results will be COMPLETELY different, then MK was the Problem.

 

[Ulevo]

Those games are too hard for people to play, you cant just pick one of these games and be good at them lol

Oh crap, you're right. You actually need to practice those games. Oh well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly the one character that would benefit the most would be Marth. Oddly enough I don't see alot of Marth mains posting in this thread advocating his ban. I see maybe...2.

I guess most of us realize this game has more problems then just MK. Although I guess MK is more of a representation of everything that is wrong with this game.

 

[BOB SAGET]

When you start ban dodging, you are obviously a troll.

Seriously, why do people keep thinking he's NOT a troll? I went through this the first time he was banned. -_- Obvious troll is obvious, ban him.

i was banned becasue of the thread i made. not because of wat i said on the tier list thread it was the thread i made up that got me banned. my thread was spam. wat i said on the tier list page wasnt trolling it was debating

 

[Ru-fi-o]

You're smarter than everyone here? Really now? Even being as an intelligent as you claim to be you still aren't smart enough to know that I wasn't talking about myself in that post.

****ing moron.

It was a generalization.

All people want is to be like m2k. To be known for being the best, and they think they'll have a better shot with mk gone.

The truth is, you can go ahead and ban him. We (The badd *** MK/SK players) will use your mains, better than you do. Then you'll really be ****ed.

 

[NeoCrono]

Yeah SF4 is much better people just run around with Sagat.

Sagat against anyone is an uphill battle, but if you are smart you can beat a good sagat. Watch the finals of Sinsation

 

[Falconv1.0]

I should note this poll seemed to have been spawned from the WHOBO results, which no one will reference due to how much Hylian and others ***** the **** out of that argument. This isn't some reoccurring issue, Samurai Panda just freaking loves making polls that get us NOWHERE.

 

[Palpi]

I love how people think MK bans will add diversity excluding the MK players switching characters. Name 5 viable characters whose worst matchup is MK, first one gets a drink on me.

I couldn't do it doom, but I still want a soda.

 

[Dark.Pch]

WHOBO should be occur again with same entrants, BUT with MK banned.

If Results will be like...

1: M2K
2: Dojo
3: DSF
4: Lee Martin
5: Tyrant
5: Co18
7: Domo
7: Melee1

... MK wasnt the Problem, it were the player's skills.

If the results will be COMPLETELY different, then MK was the Problem.

And this is why we need to finds out. If he really is the problem. Look, about 30 pages of what.....seriously what? arroganot post, spamm post or plain spam. And another 30 more in the next 24 hours. Might as well use this thread for post counts, this is going in circles. SBR needs to realize this. Just once and for all, after the third thread about this. Just take him out and do this test. someone get the SBR on this somehow.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I love how people think MK bans will add diversity excluding the MK players switching characters. Name 5 viable characters whose worst matchup is MK, first one gets a drink on me.

Falcon
Ganondorf
Marth
jigglypuff
Luigi

I like coke

 

[Ru-fi-o]

metaknight against anyone is an uphill battle, but if you are smart you can beat a good metaknight. Watch some games from Whobo

Fixed. Yer'Welcome!

I couldn't do it doom, but I still want a soda.

No

 

[NeoCrono]

Oh crap, you're right. You actually need to practice those games. Oh well.

Idk if you are being sarcastic, but these games are SIGNIFICANTLY harder to play then brawl

 

[Darxmarth23]

Honestly the one character that would benefit the most would be Marth. Oddly enough I don't see alot of Marth mains posting in this thread advocating his ban. I see maybe...2.

I guess most of us realize this game has more problems then just MK. Although I guess MK is more of a representation of everything that is wrong with this game.

Eliminating MK will help. We will also see a brawl with less crap.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, SL I love you but he said VIABLE characters.

Only Marth and MAYBE Luigi fit that description honestly out of the characters you mentioned.

 

[Nic64]

I love how people think MK bans will add diversity excluding the MK players switching characters. Name 5 viable characters whose worst matchup is MK, first one gets a drink on me.

matchups are pretty arbitrary though, some people may rank them differently than each other. IMO Marth and ROB are the main two viable characters that are really hurt by MK but, arguably, I could say Marth, ROB, Lucario, and Olimar. Although I think the effect on Olimar would be insignificant if not actually negative.

 

[Excellence]

Because of his super broken match up against Kirby.

@TheDoom-Uh, I see Marf mentioned a lot when it comes to that. Mirite?

Kirby mains should switch characters then.

It was a generalization.

All people want is to be like m2k. To be known for being the best, and they think they'll have a better shot with mk gone.

The truth is, you can go ahead and ban him. We (The badd *** MK/SK players) will use your mains, better than you do. Then you'll really be ****ed.

Don't quote someone if you're making a generalized statement.

The truth is that you will continue to do poorly with other's characters because you wasted possibly a year playing someone who is going to get banned.

 

[CRASHiC]

WHOBO should be occur again with same entrants, BUT with MK banned.

If Results will be like...

1: M2K
2: Dojo
3: DSF
4: Lee Martin
5: Tyrant
5: Co18
7: Domo
7: Melee1

... MK wasnt the Problem, it were the player's skills.

If the results will be COMPLETELY different, then MK was the Problem.

WRONG.
Did you even watch the stream?
Co killed Lee.
Then Lee got pissed and switched to Metaknight.
He won the last match by 2 percent on a time out.
On top of that, he was a spamy Metaknight.
If Lee did not go Metaknight, co would have beat him.

 

[OverLade]

WHOBO should be occur again with same entrants, BUT with MK banned.

If Results will be like...

1: M2K
2: Dojo
3: DSF
4: Lee Martin
5: Tyrant
5: Co18
7: Domo
7: Melee1

... MK wasnt the Problem, it were the player's skills.

If the results will be COMPLETELY different, then MK was the Problem.

If you look at the later results you will see EXTREMELY talented players like RoyR and DMG that would definetly place MUCH HIGHER without the meta. Lee martin wouldn't have beaten CO18 without MK for example, as CO wrecked his lucario. The majority of this part of the bracket was MK dittos anyway, but if the players werent using MK who knows how it would've turned out.

That's a horrible assumption, that all the best players use MK......

 

[Crow!]

Wow, 400 posts in one day. This thread is insane.

As though anyone will see this post in this sea of craziness, here's my take:


MK needs to be banned, but not necessarily because he is too good. The fact that he's top tier only makes the problem more obvious because he is played so often.

MK needs to be banned because he (and to the best I can tell, he alone) makes the criticisms that are leveled against Brawl as not being a good competitive game true. A MK vs MK game is little more than a glorified version of Rock, Scissors, Paper, and it's not fun to watch, and not particularly much fun to play. MK vs Not MK is boring when MK is losing (ironically enough) for reasons I'll go into more detail about below.

The problem is that MK's options are never different. Whether you approach him from above or below or from the side, whether he is on the ground or in the air or off the stage, his A attack is a fast, long range, minimal lag attack, and his B-options are always the same. He doesn't even need to land on the ground more than once every 15 seconds or so, so having been in the air for 2 seconds isn't really different from him having been in the air for 7 seconds.

The pseudo-combos that define Brawl don't happen when MK is hit; while most characters have some akward angle so that approaching them from that angle after a hit forces an air dodge which leads into an akward situation, MK can attack with a longer (or as long) range attack than the person chasing after him faster than he can even air dodge, regardless of the direction the character trying to press an advantage comes in from. The result is that people don't try to pressure MK immediately after a hit because they can't (not even another MK!), so that the game IMMEDIATELY returns to the same old approaching game (whose similarities toRock, Scissors, Paper are discussed in other threads which I have not taken the time to hunt down).


If MK is not banned, it is my belief that the lack of strategic interest that plagues all matches with the most frequently encountered character will lead to the death of competitive Smash as people gradually lose interest and leave.

 

[Some_Kind_of_JokÈ?]

i put NOT SURE, because... well hes pretty much too good, but at the same time i main Wario... and the fact that Wario can beat MK makes me happy... lol. and if MK gets banned then i bet there will be a bunch of marths to pop up... and own Wario, then ill have to learn a new character... but marth doenst relly have any good CPs other then MK... who in this situation is banned.


also, yes im thinking only of myself, and my personal matchups, and i dont care.

 

[BOB SAGET]

And this is why we need to finds out. If he really is the problem. Look, about 30 pages of what.....seriously what? arroganot post, spamm post or plain spam. And another 30 more in the next 24 hours. Might as well use this thread for post counts, this is going in circles. SBR needs to realize this. Just one and for all, after the third thread about this. Just take him out and do this thest. someone get the SBR on this somehow.

how do u know there gonna ban him. they might just say "forget the polls were not banning him. he is apart of the game and if u aren't good enough to beat him even though hes beatable like all the other characters, then tough."

 

[Emblem Lord]

SugarShiek: No he wasn't being sarcastic. You both basically agree on the same thing.

 

[ZHMT]

Marth will benefit from the ban the most, but thats not why I am for it. Theres no way I can say how I feel about MK without sounding like an *** to the anti-ban people so I wont say anything at all.

 

[Likeness101]

Falcon
Ganondorf
Marth
jigglypuff
Luigi

Jiggly benefits from MK because she does good against him, better than most actually. Luigi would still get owned by D3.

 

[Excellence]

matchups are pretty arbitrary though, some people may rank them differently than each other. IMO Marth and ROB are the main two viable characters that are really hurt by MK but, arguably, I could say Marth, ROB, Lucario, and Olimar. Although I think the effect on Olimar would be insignificant if not actually negative.

No, you were right. Olimar versus Meta Knight is an unwinnable match-up if the Meta Knight knows what he/she is doing and doesn't mess up doing it. In fact, without Meta Knight Olimar would probably rise even further in the tournament scene.

 

[Ulevo]

Idk if you are being sarcastic, but these games are SIGNIFICANTLY harder to play then brawl

A rotting vegetable can play Brawl. I'm not sure if you comprehend exactly how overly forgiving and easy Brawl is.

They are not significantly harder. They simply take significantly more dedication to be good with. And honestly, basing that on Brawl standards is nothing to be intimidated by.

Of course most of you people who have been spoon fed all your lives by Mario and Nintendo wouldn't know anything about actual practice. Trying, dedication or practice are just not in your vocabulary.