Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[The Sauce Boss]

Do you really thing he is just winning because he is pissing people off? I think he is pissing people off because he IS winning

 

[CR4SH]

The "Guys, the top players just Happen to main MK, and therefore skew tourny results" argument just HAS to go.

It's false, it's dumb. Get a new argument.

 

[Steel]

The "Guys, the top players just Happen to main MK, and therefore skew tourny results" argument just HAS to go.

It's false, it's dumb. Get a new argument.

Especially since MK MAKES the top players. (Not all of them, but definitely worth noting)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Making an appeal to popular opinion will not bolster your argument. Just because more people vote for MK to be banned does not mean he needs to be banned.

The fact that most of the top players use a top character is not a flaw. That's simply common sense. They want to give themselves the best chances at winning. This game isn't all Metaknight, and you do see other characters besides MK winning at larger tournaments.

1) Not much of a bolster, agreed, but still is one. Particularly when some of the changed opinions are from people like Snakee, who stated in another topic he was now Pro-ban. That, and seeing as we ALL play the game, their opinions still do factor in. It's not the end all deciding factor, but still weighs in.

2) Yes it is a flaw: when most of the top players use ONE top character, particularly at the huge tournaments with big pay outs, like at WHOBO.

In Brawl, big tournaments results most of the time look like this:

MK
MK
MK/Secondary
Main/MK
Main
Main/MK
MK
MK/Secondary

Give or take a few MKs. Melee was closer to something like this:

Fox
Fox/Marth
Falco
Sheik
Falco
Marth
Fox
Sheik/Falco

There was at least 4 characters you could win a big tournament with. In Brawl, you MUST use MK to win the big tournaments, or at least thats what it seems like. Everyone and their mother uses MK, instead of everyone and their mother using the top 4 or 5 characters. And thats a problem.

 

[Brinzy]

Banning MK will open metagames for many characters, and make many of them Viable.

Allowing everybody to prosper.

There are not that many characters whose worst match-up is MK. On the other hand, there are more characters whose worst match-ups are Marth, G&W, Falco, etc. Removing MK means you'd get more of these characters in the tournament scene, and the case for many characters goes from bad to worse.

As for those who have MK as their worst fight, sure, banning MK would help them out in order to win tournaments, but would it really advance the metagame? If their worst fight is MK, then they need to be working on their worst fight, not so much the second worst.

I think the only ones who could potentially prosper are those who suffer directly from MK.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Meta pisses too many people off. You just say his name and you are ticked. this messes up the mindset to deal or beat meta. This to me is one of the biggiest problems when dealing with meta. And learning how to kick his azz

there is a 40/60 chance that MK will get overthrown because its too early to tell if a character is too good. MK is not good enough to be banned, nintendo isnt that stupid to make a character far better than the rest.

 

[CR4SH]

Especially since MK MAKES the top players. (Not all of them, but definitely worth noting)

I disagree with that statement entirely. Here's how it goes, from my experience.

Players main the character they like, or the character that suits their playstyle best. They either get good (quickly or slowly) enough to have a reasonable chance to win a tournament, or to win tournaments fairly consistantly. At this point they make the decision that maining MK would win them more tournaments, so they do it. They do it because it is clearly and without question their best chance to win. That's ****ed up.

 

[Eddie G]

Do you really thing he is just winning because he is pissing people off? I think he is pissing people off because he IS winning

Is misinterpretation really that common around here?

He is clearly implying the frustration that can possibly stem from and by fighting a MK. The character has all the tools necessary to frustrate some players, thus hindering their ability to effectively deal with the matchup if they succumb to that frustration.

Honestly...

 

[Dark.Pch]

i dont want to start a fight i just want to say the truth. most people wont bother reading all dat because they have better things to do. anyway if u watch tournament battles on youtube. you will see how when MK fights, the battle is usually pretty close.

People did and most aggreed with what I said. wether in here or where i really posted all that in. So just cause you don't wanna read it, does not mean others are. and you saying that causes a fight. Think.

And pretty close against who?
What players are behind behind meta?
who is meta playing, High tiers or mid and below?
How high is the level of play here?

You can't just say this and be like" well this dude got close to kicking this dudes azz, thats more than enough reason to keep him in." It does not work that way. He is a problem to a point a thread like this has to be made on him. if it was that simple, this thread not need to be made.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What scrubby MK players beat top level players?

No one remembers when inui's 2 week old MK beat Bum's DK? =\

there is a 40/60 chance that MK will get overthrown because its too early to tell if a character is too good. MK is not good enough to be banned, nintendo isnt that stupid to make a character far better than the rest.

???

nintendo isnt that stupid

nintendo isnt stupid

/wrist

 

[spudzalot]

I voted Yes.

We only have one real MK in my scene and I have only faced him once so its not like he is a huge problem FOR ME. But from some of the videos I have seen and all of the tourney results (especially WHOBO) I just think the game would be better off without Meta.

 

[Steel]

I disagree with that statement entirely. Here's how it goes, from my experience.

Players main the character they like, or the character that suits their playstyle best. They either get good (quickly or slowly) enough to have a reasonable chance to win a tournament, or to win tournaments fairly consistantly. At this point they make the decision that maining MK would win them more tournaments, so they do it. They do it because it is clearly and without question their best chance to win. That's ****ed up.

How does that go against what I said?

Player mains Lucario
Player gets frustrated, switches to MK
Player is now a top contender at tournaments

This doesn't happen to all players, but I've seen it happen a lot.

 

[Ru-fi-o]

I'm voting Yes! As in Yes, we totally need more new polls!

I'm voting Yes! As in Yes, we totally need more sarcastic posts!

This was wonderful.

No one remembers when inui's 2 week old MK beat Bum's DK? =\

Some nobody calling Inui out. Awesome. And NJ is the Hyperbolic time chamber. Two weeks here is your whole life in training.

 

[BentoBox]

there is a 40/60 chance that MK will get overthrown because its too early to tell if a character is too good. MK is not good enough to be banned, nintendo isnt that stupid to make a character far better than the rest.

LoL, /thread.

Nintendo doesn't care about the competitive community.

I disagree with that statement entirely. Here's how it goes, from my experience.

Players main the character they like, or the character that suits their playstyle best. They either get good (quickly or slowly) enough to have a reasonable chance to win a tournament, or to win tournaments fairly consistantly. At this point they make the decision that maining MK would win them more tournaments, so they do it. They do it because it is clearly and without question their best chance to win. That's ****ed up.

He was agreeing with you...

 

[Master Raven]

No one remembers when inui's 2 week old MK beat Bum's DK? =\

I thought Inui stated somewhere that he used him for roughly a month (4 weeks), not to mention Bum has continuously beaten his MK afterward (correct me if Inui has gained another victory against him with MK since then).

 

[Overswarm]

If anyone has lyrics for a banning MK song, let me know. It can be rap or singing, I'll get y.b.m. to back me up

 

[CR4SH]

How does that go against what I said?

Player mains Lucario
Player gets frustrated, switches to MK
Player is now a top contender at tournaments

This doesn't happen to all players, but I've seen it happen a lot.

I've never personally seen a player dominate with MK that couldn't win most of those tournaments with lucario. It's not going to make you a whole lot better, it's just going to iron out the rough spots, get rid of the fluke losses etc. In other words, you win all the matches you're supposed to win when you play MK.

Oh not to mention a few you probably shouldn't.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

I'll wait for Apex and Genesis results first. If they wind up being just like Whobo's, then I'll swing pro-ban.

this. I vote not sure.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

People did and most aggreed with what I said. wether in here or where i really posted all that in. So just cause you don't wanna read it, does not mean others are. and you saying that causes a fight. Think.

And pretty close against who?
What players are behind behind meta?
who is meta playing, High tiers or mid and below?
How high is the level of play here?

You can't just say this and be like" well this dude got close to kicking this dudes azz, thats more than enough reason to keep him in." It does not work that way. He is a problem to a point a thread like this has to be made on him. if it was that simple, this thread not need to be made.

example: heres MK getting his *** kicked at a wifi BRoom tournament. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S5QoCi_NOI

example: MK losing to a diddy kong at Loser's Finals from Smash Riot I in State College, PA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j74xd47ld2E&feature=related

 

[bobson]

Oh great, this thread again.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Personally, I think we should not ban MK because he is the best character in the game currently.

If we ban him, it should be only when all we see at tourneys , are MK dittos :/.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Some nobody calling Inui out. Awesome.

I like this, start it off by calling someone a nobody.
No really, unless you are known, anything you say is not valid.
Please do me a favor and just delete your account if this is ALL you can say.

And NJ is the Hyperbolic time chamber. Two weeks here is your whole life in training.

A 2 week old Metaknight should not be beating a Dk user who has MUCH more experience and skill.

We know for a fact that inui is not some incredible genius at smash, we can tell from his tournament results.

At that point in ime, inui wasn't as good as he is currently and he STILLbeat Bum's Dk.
Keep your bull**** about Nj to yourself. Not in the mood for anymore trolling.

 

[Dark.Pch]

there is a 40/60 chance that MK will get overthrown because its too early to tell if a character is too good. MK is not good enough to be banned, nintendo isnt that stupid to make a character far better than the rest.

What Game are YOU talking about here???????

Do you really thing he is just winning because he is pissing people off? I think he is pissing people off because he IS winning

People do get pissed when one picks meta, and it does not have to do with him winning tournies. Meta is the best character in the game correct? Lets say player A players player B. Player A wins round one. Then player B decides to go meta. Player A loses. Game three wether player A decides to stay the same character or switch and choose a good stage (seriously, where the hell you gonna take him) Player A still loses. But why would Player a Be pisses?

- He found out Player B does not uses meta.
- Meta is usually the answer to everything and it is annoying.
- The player may not be all that good Player A is better But meta gets away with too much crap.
- Seeing how everyone just goes meta when things get ruff is annoying.

In my other post I added reason why he annoyes people. it affects thier mindset. they are not on point with a clear head. some sort or rage or w/e had been planted in your head before the match. And as the match goes on, that seed begins to grow.

 

[Synth]

-additional generic smash comment-

MK shouldn't be banned.

 

[Ru-fi-o]

Ummm... http://allisbrawl.com/group.aspx?id=7372

/bow/

 

[ShadowLink84]

*looks at dark pch's post, feels a sudden rage when he thinks about G.I.M.P.E.D*
ARRRGH!!!!!!!

its too true.

 

[CR4SH]

there is a 40/60 chance that MK will get overthrown because its too early to tell if a character is too good.

MK is not good enough to be banned, nintendo isnt that stupid to make a character far better than the rest.

1. You're incredibly wrong. MK is on top, solidly. This game isn't going to go so far forward that MK is going to get overtaken, it's been out too long at this point.

2. Umm, definetly smart enough to break their fav. character on purpose.

 

[Ru-fi-o]

I like this, start it off by calling someone a nobody.
No really, unless you are known, anything you say is not valid.
Please do me a favor and just delete your account if this is ALL you can say.
.

I do not want Green Eggs and Ham
I will not eat them, nobody.

That wasn't a poignant as I wanted it to be.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ummm... http://allisbrawl.com/group.aspx?id=7372

/bow/

Dude that has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. Why bring it up

I do not want Green Eggs and Ham
I will not eat them, nobody.

That wasn't a poignant as I wanted it to be.

*le sigh*
Some people...
*ignores*

 

[Ru-fi-o]

SF community:

Guy 1: Man, sagat is like.. Way good.
Guy 2: I know, let's both use him, cause he's way good.

******s.

 

[Dark.Pch]

example: heres MK getting his *** kicked at a wifi BRoom tournament. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S5QoCi_NOI

example: MK losing to a diddy kong at Loser's Finals from Smash Riot I in State College, PA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j74xd47ld2E&feature=related

Cant watch videos on the PC I am on.

This you need to explain yourself from why you qouted my post and what you are trying to get at.

 

[Anther]

Just ban him, jeez, omfg. Sooo much whinery, aren't you people hosting these tournaments x_X? Who's going to cry if he's banned if so many of you want it? It's your game, do what you want with it. Ridiculous T.T, most tourneys are local, so ban him locally and make happy.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

1. You're incredibly wrong. MK is on top, solidly. This game isn't going to go so far forward that MK is going to get overtaken, it's been out too long at this point.

2. Umm, definetly smart enough to break their fav. character on purpose.

out too long! only 2 tier lists came out so far!

 

[ShadowLink84]

I would feel more comfortable if we waited until Apex and Genesis. Just so that there is enough data so that both sides of the argument would be supported more thoroughly.

 

[Eddie G]

There are not that many characters whose worst match-up is MK. On the other hand, there are more characters whose worst match-ups are Marth, G&W, Falco, etc. Removing MK means you'd get more of these characters in the tournament scene, and the case for many characters goes from bad to worse.

As for those who have MK as their worst fight, sure, banning MK would help them out in order to win tournaments, but would it really advance the metagame? If their worst fight is MK, then they need to be working on their worst fight, not so much the second worst.

I think the only ones who could potentially prosper are those who suffer directly from MK.

You put too much faith into matchup numbers my friend.

Matchup difficulty is subjective in most cases at high level play and not a lot of people pay enough respect to this. Leepuff claims the GnW/MK matchup to be 50/50, but not every GnW player (top or not) says the same thing; The same applies to Atomsk's claim on the DDD/MK matchup being 50/50. This is nothing more than their own personal comfort with the matchup, which proves that matchup numbers are ultimately irrelevant unless it is visually clear that one character is totally outclassed by another, which in the case of MK vs. the majority of the cast is valid. Why is it that a lot of the best players (Ally, M2K, etc.) don't sit in these threads and cherry-pick others' arguments while preaching matchup numbers as much as a lot of players on the lower end of the spectrum do, if at all?

Can you recall when you last saw Azen, a player with extensive personal knowledge on several characters, pay a visit to a thread like this to discuss such a subjective topic like anything regarding matchup numbers? Exactly, he doesn't, and yet he is still one of the handful of players at the top who are dealing with the matchups. He and other players who "walk the walk" learn the ins-and-outs of matchups. They aren't stuck playing these silly little number games with a side of theorycrafting.

 

[Synth]

Just ban him, jeez, omfg. Sooo much whinery, aren't you people hosting these tournaments x_X? Who's going to cry if he's banned if so many of you want it? It's your game, do what you want with it. Ridiculous T.T, most tourneys are local, so ban him locally and make happy.

^This. Ban him at local tourneys and see what happens from there. However, all the drama over this IS pretty amusing.

 

[CR4SH]

Then everyone at the tournament whines that their character can't get points.

 

[Bonehimer]

If anyone has lyrics for a banning MK song, let me know. It can be rap or singing, I'll get y.b.m. to back me up

edit the lyrics for The Times They Are A Changing I will even make a video for it and everything.

Quick edit for the lyrics
Come gather 'round smashers
Wherever you roam
And admit that the metagame
Around has stagnated
And accept it that soon
You'll be maining MK.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start voting
Or you'll sink like a low tier
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come backroomers and To's
Who prophesize with your posts
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the losers now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.


that is all i have, rest of the lyrics
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

 

[Ru-fi-o]

You put too much faith into matchup numbers my friend.

Matchup difficulty is subjective in some cases and not a lot of people pay attention to this. Leepuff claims the GnW/MK matchup to be 50/50, but not every GnW player (top or not) says the same thing; The same applies to Atomsk's claim on the DDD/MK matchup being 50/50. This is nothing more than their own personal comfort with the matchup, which proves that matchup numbers are ultimately irrelevant unless it is visually clear that one character is totally outclassed by another, which in the case of MK vs. the majority of the cast is valid. Why is it that a lot of the best players (Ally, M2K, etc.) don't sit in these threads and cherry-pick others' arguments while preaching matchup numbers as much as a lot of players on the lower end of the spectrum do, if at all?

Can you recall when you last saw Azen, a player with extensive personal knowledge on several characters, pay a visit to a thread like this to discuss such a subjective topic like anything regarding matchup numbers? Exactly, he doesn't, and yet he is still one of the handful of players at the top who are dealing with the matchups. He and other players who "walk the walk" learn the ins-and-outs of matchups. They aren't stuck playing these silly little number games with a side of theorycrafting.

This guy just said: Get. ****ing. *****.

 

[Overswarm]

edit the lyrics for The Times They Are A Changing I will even make a video for it and everything.

Quick edit for the lyrics
Come gather 'round smashers
Wherever you roam
And admit that the metagame
Around has stagnated
And accept it that soon
You'll be maining MK.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start voting
Or you'll sink like a low tier
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come backroomers and To's
Who prophesize with your posts
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the losers now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.


that is all i have, rest of the lyrics
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

It will be done.