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Simpsons Mafia: will homer survive?

Riddle

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Riddle, you are starting to look more and more scummier. At first, you stated you believed my claims, but then you said that I was a good lynch target for the day because you think that I am a mafia fakeclaiming as a protective role which is safe according to you: this makes no sense to me at all as if they are mafia, they will not be killed during the night and then lynched the next day. Your opinion changed and now you think that my claim is not real.
The 2nd half of this is massive WIFOM. I honestly don't think its safe to keep you alive and allow mafia to do this. However, I don't think you should be lynched immediately. If we find a scummier prospect I will be happy to lynch them. We have more time and we should use it.


Cacti said:
These three posts I found very odd: your opinion changes yet again. First you think that I am town's best lynch target because a protective role is a good safeclaim for mafia and I am really scummy. These are the same reasons that you have been stating over and over again throughout this game. It seems to me that you're just trying to push a lynch onto me now.

But on the second two posts, you say that you're not sure if I'm a good lynch target and went back a little saying that I should be lynched if we cannot find anyone else, as if reeling back thinking that you've been pushing a little too hard.
No, you misunderstand. I think that you are currently our best lynch, however if we find someone better to lynch my vote will change to them. Yes I'm trying to push a lynch on you because you are scummy and a good candidate for a lynch imo. Do you expect me to come up with new reasons everytime I post my suspicions of you? Scumminess is so broad anyways.
 

#HBC | Mac

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Page Break Vote Count


[1]Gheb: Mcfox
[2]Cacti: Riddle, Rockin
[3]Riddle: Marshy, Cacti, KevinM
[1]KevinM: Frozenflame
[1]Junglefever: Steel
[2]Not Voting: Junglefever, Gheb


It takes 6 to lynch!

Deadline is set for the last second of October 11th. EST
 

mentosman8

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Ok, when did I ever say I was doctor/tracker/watcher? I said I was doctor and a watcher or tracker. I clearly stated the secondary effect in my post:



"I can also see if they are at home or visiting somebody"
The way it was phrased when you initially said it implied that. As I said, it was clarified later, so I don't hold it as a reason to disbelieve your claim. I merely stated when I first read it and saw that part it sounded like you were claiming a triple power

Page End Vote Count


[1]McFox: Mentosman
[1]Gheb: Mcfox
[2]Cacti: Riddle, Rockin
[3]Riddle: Marshy, Cacti, KevinM
[1]KevinM: Frozenflame
[1]Junglefever: Steel
[2]Not Voting: Junglefever, Gheb


It takes 6 to lynch!

Deadline is set for the last second of October 11th. EST
Cacti already said it, but I unvoted McFox. Just to make sure, Unvote
 

McFox

Spread the Love
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Huh, and I could've sworn that I unvoted Gheb a long time ago. But I just checked, and never had. Guess I was thinking about doing it and then thought I actually did.

Unvote

Still trying to wrap my head around what's gone on since yesterday. More to come soon.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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First of all, the reason protective claims should often be lynched the day they claim is because it sets mafia up for massive WIFOM. If they keep Cacti alive after his claim, it is going to make us question him.
Must we question him D2?

What if our lynch and the night actions give us new suspicions?

By lynching a probable town player today we are giving up a day, a chance to lynch scum. That's almost as bad or is as bad as a no lynch in my opinion.

Think of it from scum's perspective. Wouldn't they rather us just go and knock a town PR out of the way FOR them so they could eliminate another town over night instead of gambling with WIFOM tomorrow?

Why give up a day to look for scum?
 

mentosman8

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Protective roles are an easy claim for scum to make, because they know town will be over-cautious about lynching them. When a protective role claims early in the game like this, it is best to lynch them. Mafia can choose not to kill them, an important pr, which will cast suspicion on them. If we leave Cacti alive, we open up a massive bottle of WIFOM. I hate lynching a doctor claim, but his specific claim doesn't protect our most important roles, and by lynching him we make sure he isn't scum claiming, and don't open ourselves up to the massive framing we could be subjected to to amplify his suspicious behavior.

I'll try to make a solid decision if it's the overall best vote, but I do see leaving him alive to be damaging later in the game.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Are you trying to say that you, Riddle, still believe Cacti to be out best lynch candidate despite is ridiculously solid claim?

It doesn't matter if he claimed a protective role. He claimed a protective role as a VERY important character and and specific protective role at that. If he just claimed some whimsical character and a nebulous protective role, FF would be more inclined to agreed with you, but the fact of the matter is, sans CC, Cacti's claim is legit.
This is why I think that Cacti shoudn't be lynched today.

I also agree with your point against Kevin. He didn't even respond to it but just jumped the next best wagon. I don't care if it's the way he usually plays - it's easy to play that way if you're scum too.

Mentos has it right when he says protective roles that claim should be lynched the day they claim as it sets up for ridiculous amounts of WIFOM the next day if they arent NK'd.
Protective roles are an easy claim for scum to make, because they know town will be over-cautious about lynching them.
First of all you seem to forget that he isn't a "protective" role like a doc. His ability to protect people is very, very limited unlike a real doc, which would be a much more scummy role to claim. Second, he has other uses than just protecting people - his watcher-like ability can also confirm innos to narrow down our lynchpool later in the game. I think that's too useful to lynch and not really a scummy claim. On the other hand it's not overpowered either.
Third, there are no CCs, his role fits his character and his role is useful for town so I can't see why we should lynch him now.

Currently I'm highly suspicious of all the people, who voted Riddle except Cacti due to his claim. Plus he voted Riddle to force a tie in votes, which is an acceptable move for a townie in my book.

that's kind of hard to believe and i wish you didn't post it in the first place unvote mcfox vote riddle
Doesn't elaborate on what's "kind of hard to believe". Plus Riddle has been vocal and shows commitment unlike Marshy.

Riddle two or three of our points were exactly the same and your first line was word for word.

Anyway, riddle lynch sounds good to me

vote: riddle
Doesn't post a reason for his vote, except "we share some points", which isn't scummy.

Riddle seems really scummy/

Unvote
Vote Riddle


We can always test his claim later.

He already has a target on his back, yet you're still pushing it. I'm fine with your lynch.
That's the weakest of all reasons to vote Riddle. "Riddle seems really scummy" you say but ignore the fact, that you're considered scummy yourself - not responding to FFs point, which has lots of merit but jumping the Riddle BW "because he seems really scummy". That's really weak.
Your vote lacks credibility due to the fact that you were so convinced that Cacti was lying and now suddenly Riddle is the play?

Vote KevinM
FoS Marshy and §teel

More suspicious of Marshy than Steel because I FOS'd Marshy before. The whole Riddle wagon is really weak and I don't think we should lynch him today. He's pushing the Cacti lynch, which isn't OK in my book so he's not clear but I'd rather see a Marshy or Kevin lynch because they're just downright scummy. I don't like how people take it by saying "that's the way they're always playing". First of all I have seen them playing a lot more
helpful and second it's really easy for scum to assume that playstyle.

:059:
 

Steel

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Protective roles are an easy claim for scum to make, because they know town will be over-cautious about lynching them. When a protective role claims early in the game like this, it is best to lynch them. Mafia can choose not to kill them, an important pr, which will cast suspicion on them. If we leave Cacti alive, we open up a massive bottle of WIFOM. I hate lynching a doctor claim, but his specific claim doesn't protect our most important roles, and by lynching him we make sure he isn't scum claiming, and don't open ourselves up to the massive framing we could be subjected to to amplify his suspicious behavior.

I'll try to make a solid decision if it's the overall best vote, but I do see leaving him alive to be damaging later in the game.
It's not just protective though, he's not even as good as a doc. Watchers are useful. What if he comes out D2 with useful information on scum?

Best case scenario: We spot scum today because we don't lynch cacti, he comes out tomorrow that so-and-so went somewhere, perhaps leading to ANOTHER scum lynch, which COULD be the game right there.

Why pass up on that possibility? Why don't we simply ask him for what he finds tomorrow?
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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Gheb I simply had scum vibes from Riddle, there are only a few concrete examples I can pull from. What's wrong with a wagon on D1? It's a good pressure tool to see if we can get reads out of someone. Also note my vote isn't on him right now.
 

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
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Gheb how would his watcher like abilities show someones innocent.

Mafia can have roles and thus "leave their house" too.
 

DtJ Jungle

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It depends on the game I believe

Like, in some games, the mafia chooses who to send, or the godfather does it. Depends on the moderator iirc.
 

DtJ Jungle

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How can you do that? What if they decide "I don't want to use my night action this time?" Unless you're also trying to claim you're a cop too.
 

Cacti

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I said kind of, I can't really confirm anybody. Seeing visits might be useful later on though if a mafia claims he's doing something other then what I see he's doing. Like if he claims vanilla and I see him visit.
 

#HBC | marshy

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cacti how many scumbags are seen at a corpse really depends on the mod
 

~ Gheb ~

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Gheb how would his watcher like abilities show someones innocent.

Mafia can have roles and thus "leave their house" too.
I was assuming that all scumbags leave their house at night. That means that if Cacti visits a house and somebody's there he's vanilla but apparently it's possible for scum to stay at home too so I guess I was wrong about that. Basically I was thinking that Cacti can confirm vanillas because they stay at home at night...

Kevin, you've been pushing a Cacti lynch just as much but with weaker reasoning/no reasons at all. And then you decide it's enough and jump the Riddle BW for doing something you do and thus putting Riddle in the same situation as Cacti was?

:059:
 

~ Gheb ~

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OK the last sentence is poorly worded: You vote Riddle for something you did yourself (pushing the Cacti lynch) and then continue to push for a Riddle lynch in the same manner as Riddle was pushing for a Cacti lynch

:059:
 

mentosman8

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First of all you seem to forget that he isn't a "protective" role like a doc. His ability to protect people is very, very limited unlike a real doc, which would be a much more scummy role to claim. Second, he has other uses than just protecting people - his watcher-like ability can also confirm innos to narrow down our lynchpool later in the game. I think that's too useful to lynch and not really a scummy claim. On the other hand it's not overpowered either.
Third, there are no CCs, his role fits his character and his role is useful for town so I can't see why we should lynch him now.
First of all, the fact that he claimed a weak version of a doctor makes it less painful to lynch him. A lot of times I am more hesitant when it comes to lynching protective roles, but depending on the way Mac set up his game, it's very possible that he can only protect 3-4 people, which, in all honesty, isn't very useful.

To your second part, first of all people need to stop saying it's a "watcher like" ability added on. If he was a watcher/doc, he would be incredibly useful. Instead, we have an extremely dumbed-down tracker which, if the mafia doesn't all visit, doesn't help us at all, and if they do all visit it would be impossible to differentiate them from PR's, and odds would be highly in favor of hitting a visiting role to a point it's low chance to confirm any nillas.

To the final point, does no CC's really mean anything? Yeah, Flanders is a big character, but it's also very possible that the mafia was given safe-claims. Yeah, if someone claims a big character it should be considered, but at the same time I could easily see Mac throwing a wrench in the claiming by giving mafia safe claims.

It's not just protective though, he's not even as good as a doc. Watchers are useful. What if he comes out D2 with useful information on scum?

Best case scenario: We spot scum today because we don't lynch cacti, he comes out tomorrow that so-and-so went somewhere, perhaps leading to ANOTHER scum lynch, which COULD be the game right there.

Why pass up on that possibility? Why don't we simply ask him for what he finds tomorrow?
Yeah, watchers are useful. Too bad he isn't anything like a watcher and people have been calling him that for no reason. He is a ridiculously dumbed-down tracker. He can not get useful information on scum. Why are people considering this as an important part of his role? He sees someone visit, for all we know it could be a pr. He sees someone no visit it could be a scum that wasn't involved in the kill. So, his role can protect maybe 3-4 townies tops, and potentially 1-2 mafia depending on how Mac is running the game, gives us no usable info from the pseudo-tracking, how is this a really useful role?

Now, why pass up on that possibility? Because name-claim=/= clear. Cacti has seemed scummy today and it is completely reasonable to continue lynching him, especially since he has a nigh worthless role. And why not ask what he finds tomorrow? Because if mafia doesn't kill him people are still going to be suspicious, and if he chooses to protect a mafia involved in the kill, when he says they left the mafia can say they are vanilla, and we'll end up lynching him anyway. Also, what if he is scum? If he has a safe-claim, and says "I protected X and they weren't home" and we ask for confirmation, congratulations we just outted a PR to mafia. Really, his role gives more info to the mafia than it does to us.

Also, Jungle, I can kinda confirm non visiting roles if I do not see them visit.
You can confirm non-visiting roles, but in many forum games not all of the mafia go to the kill, so you potentially give us no info there.

Now, after rattling off my thoughts to respond to Steel's post, I realized just how worthless Cacti's role is. Not only can he only protect very few of us, but if he comes out with information about his power and says "so and so left last night" or "so and so was home," that tells us NOTHING because we don't know how Mac is modding the game, so we have to assume visits could be PR's or maf/indie, and no visits are nilla or maf/indie. However, if he outs results(the only way to confirm him) it either tells mafia who a PR is and sets up a target, tells them who a nilla is lowering PR possibilities, or is on one of them.

Knowing that his role is potentially far more useful to mafia, and nigh useless for town, coupled with the very high potential of mafia WIFOM'ing the situation if we don't lynch him, I'm still in line to lynch the scummy player despite his name-claim.

Vote: Cacti

If anyone can explain to me why I'm wrong that his role helps mafia more than us, or why I'm wrong that leaving him alive causes problems later in more crunch situations if he continues to do things that build suspicion and isn't killed, then I will consider unvoting. However, right now I see him as being more of a potential damage to town later on than a help.
 

~ Gheb ~

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mentos, are you saying that we should lynch Cacti regardless of the potential use of his role? He seems only helpful for scum if he posts his results at the wrong time (too early) and he still can safe people's life. We have only 11 players and any investigator/protective can be useful even if he's not as good as a real cop.

The only reason to lynch Cacti is if he's just lying about his role (assuming yedi gave scum safe claims), which is still a posibility...imo

:059:
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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Alright, mentos pretty much convinced me.

And unless someone can convince me otherwise, my vote shall stay on cacti for today.

unvote vote: Cacti
 

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
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Gheb, that's exactly what he's saying. His potential usefullness is incredibly marginal.

I want to hear more peoples thoughts on this nameclaim before i hammer.
 

mentosman8

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Gheb, yes I am pretty much. The only way his role is useful to us in terms of finding scum is if by chance he protected one and they visited the kill/claimed vanilla, or didn't visit and claimed a PR. If we have a reasonably intelligent scum(which I would expect given most people in this game), that wouldn't happen. Add to that the very few people who are actually saveable, and I would rather lynch a scummy claim than let them live when their role is barely more useful than a vanilla.

One other important point that needs to be made, is Marshy's comments since Cacti claimed. From what I've seen, Marshy is a strong proponent of lynching protective roles the day they claim, yet has not suggested the idea at all this game. He may be a good place to look if Cacti flips town(and remember, part of the reason I'm voting Cacti is that he has been scummy enough where I feel he may be scum with a safe-claim) due to his lack of wanting to lynch the protective claim(would look bad on scum). Also, if he flips mafia Marshy may still be a good place to look. Regardless, just some food for thought.
 

Cacti

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Vote: Junglefever

Pseudo scumhunting and not really helping town so far.

I think that Mentos and Riddle's reasons are valid right now, and I think that Mentos and McFox are townies, not too sure about Riddle but not really fosing him. Just saying this stuff for when I die.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Don't hammer just yet, jungle. There's still about 4 days left.

Mentos, I see what you mean and I guess what you say has merit...however, I still think that the people on the Riddle wagon are better lynch candidates. Looks like Cacti will die today though so it doesn't really matter =/

:059:
 

mentosman8

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Trust me when I say I'm looking at more than just the Cacti situation Gheb. While I feel he may be our best over-all lynch choice today, I'm also looking critically at some others. As I mentioned in my last post, Marshy is the next standout to me, especially if Cacti does flip town.
 

Steel

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And fos steel for all of his bandwagoning.
nice pseudo omgus. Bandwagoning is hardly a scummy tactic at this stage and for the decisions I'm making with my votes. I voted for Riddle to see if we could get any more out of him, I was the sole person to vote Jungle (not at all convinced he's town however), but now pretty sure I want you lynched.

Kevin why are you not putting him at L-1? Didn't you say you were comfortable with his lynch? Or would you prefer Riddle?

answer questions this time plz
 

Cacti

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Does it really matter how scummy I am at this point? I'm getting lynched anyways and I will flip town.

And I'd like Kevin to answer Steel's question.

Unfos Steel
 

KevinM

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Mainly because even though I'm ok with his lynch I'm really suspicious of Marshy not voting for him after his claim.

*shrugs*

Why put him at L-1 when I have a few more days left.

Anyways, game theory says that you want to lynch protective roles as soon as they claim because if there is any type of recruitment role such as a Yak (highly unlikely) a recruiter (not as unlikely) or a Cult (who knows) who gets control of the doctor, it becomes REALLY hard for the town to bring themselves to lynch the un CC'd doc.

It's like HP Mafia when Dumbledore got snagged, it's impossible.

Basically it's common sense to do so, I was putting pressure on Riddle to see if he knew why he still wanted to vote but it didn't get me anywhere besides having Gheb freak out and vote for me.

However the fact that Marshy even said in another game that protective roles should be lynched as soon as they claim and he's not on the lynch worries me.

There are your answers plz.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Unvote Kevin you bring up a some good points. Maybe a Cacti lynch isn't such a bad thing after all considering your point about the recruiter makes sense. I'm really going to think the whole Cacti issue over...

:059:
 

mentosman8

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Kevin, I'm glad to see someone is on the same page as me with Marshy. I don't think it's a good idea to go after him today(not enough time to properly think it through), but at least I'm not the only one who's noticed that fact.
 

Riddle

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Did I answer satisfactorily Kevin?

I really think we need to lynch Cacti toDay though. Can someone give me a reason why we shouldn't?
 

#HBC | marshy

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i haven't been pushing for cacti's lynch for claiming doc because his claim is convoluted enough that i doubt he's making it up. though i see his claim isn't necessarily pro-town. i'll read into it more later
 
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