SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[MythTrainerInfinity]

3 things guys

How do you edgeguard luigi.

How do you kill wario

and where do you CP wario besides YI

Wario you can cp to Lylat.

We have trouble dying there and can punish his landing lag if we hang out near the middle.

You could hit Luigi with an FAir after he missiles. DAir him into the stage when he tries to recover using his Down B.

Wario's Clap is slower than our DAir (8 frames vs. 4). Depends on how they play though...

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Okay this isn't really working as I planned...

So I'm going to shift the topic to some MUs we all need to put our brains together for (probably do high tiers and mids, then lows).

Let's talk about Olimar now.

Jab in this MU is really really good.

What are some of the best ways for you to separate Olimar from his pikmin?

What do you do when he pulls out 3 blues and 3 purples?

How often do you pay attention to his pikmin order?

 

[culexus・wau]

Fair is the safest way to knock pikmin off you imo.

Depends on how they're lined up, and if you're in kill % or not.

not in kill % play normally VS the blues and be ready to shield/dodge purples.

if you're in kill % this becomes a little more tricky.. they're more likely to want to grab with the blues so be warry about that or wait for them to throw them/waste them in aerials/whiffed or spacing moves.

when they have the purple take note that your fsmash outranges purple grab and dash upsmash, and I THINK purple fsmash.

be warry of purple dsmash though.

ALWAYS ALWAYS PAY ATTENTION TO HIS PIKMIN ORDER unless its full of stuff of pikmin whose grabs can't kill you imo. [yellow,red,white].

Always pay attention when he has a yellow because thats one of the few times you can actually throw a FCAS under his pikmin tosses.

Blues are the most annoying pikmin in this MU.

SDI out of uair the opposite direction of which he's moving plus up, or just up if you can tap a lot of imputs.

I used to be able to falling dair to punish olimar after DIing upair sometimes but I can't do that anymore for some reason, trying to look for it again.

Uptilt and nair are weird, idk how to DI out them effectively. DI nair up when its falling nair though so you can dair/airdodge upsmash

Always be careful at being directly above him past 110, upsmash OOS it nuts.

Stay at a 90 degree angle at him or very close to him and MAKE YOUR JUGGLE TRAPS COUNT.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

What are some of the best ways for you to separate Olimar from his pikmin?

Don't focus on trying to do this.

What do you do when he pulls out 3 blues and 3 purples?

You should generally try to kill the pikmin that give you problems, and try to not kill the ones that don't, if you can help it.

I'll post more later because I love this matchup XD I'm better at answering questions/correcting misconceptions, though lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I never thought about not killing pikmin, most of the time I just fair or nair and I kill them all anyways.

The only issue I have is trying to approach without getting pivot grabbed, that and avoiding Usmash when my option to avoid a grab seems to put me into a position for a Usmash :/.

 

[D. Disciple]

Don't jump at him then, until you're close enough that if he tries to throw a pikmin at you, then you can punish him. Pretty much if you get close to him that he can't even spam a smash attack without fearing of getting hit they will roll.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So instead of using attacks from the air I should run up closer but avoiding the jump until I'm just outside of their grab range instead of my old method of mixing up my landing to get next to him from a jump.

 

[Tony T]

Also there is the DT factor in this match as well if his pikmin attach to you use the DT to kill them and possibly damage oli in the process.

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

Jab in this MU is really really good.

Jab is really really good overall, but I see what you mean. If you successfully roll behind an attacking Olimar, you can usually jab, sometimes utilt, and occasionally grab, same as with snake.

What are some of the best ways for you to separate Olimar from his pikmin?

Kill him.

What do you do when he pulls out 3 blues and 3 purples?

Pray to the heavens OR back off and camp until you kill a few.

How often do you pay attention to his pikmin order?

I watch for purples and blues because those are the two colors most likely to kill you, especially at low %. Blues, of course, encourage Olimar to go for a grab, and and purples remind me to play as safe as possible (by that I meandon't get grabbed/upsmashed).

Also, please don't use DT (unless you mean dark templar) against Olimar. It's just not safe or likely to work. If you ever have to play an Oli in tournament, good luck. This matchup is haaaard.

Hilt, if you're still lurking in this thread, are you up for an Oli vs Lucario MM for old time's sake....but it might be a while before I see you again.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Haha definitely Fizzle. I love the matchup XD I'm just tired of EVERY Lucario bustin out their pocket MK lol

Also yeah, other than whites, Pikmin deal 2 damage every 30 frames, IF it's fresh. Taking a bit of damage to get in on Olimar when he's vulnerable is something not enough people think to do.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

DT is safeish when Olimar has to land. If he Whistles well yeahhhhh... How many times does pikmin pummel you with minimum movement, two times, three, or more?

Olimar's standing grab takes 11 frames. I'm wondering if we have a frame advantage with Jab/Grab or UTilt if he doesn't perfect shield a NAir.

Can't wait to read Hilt's frame data for Dash and Pivot Grabs.

Since "Lucario's one frame Grab" still initiates on frame 9, but we still grab faster than his standing grab at least. We could land to grab with it for a mixup.

His shield is also relatively easy to shieldpoke once you got it down a lil'.

Oli's roll is pretty bad and his options are pretty limited if you force him near a ledge.

Up Smash - Tosses a Pikmin a short distance in to the air. Olimar's fastest smash, has surprising forward range. Has a huge knockback when it's a purple Pikmin. Red Pikmin: 15% uncharged, 21% fully charged. Blue Pikmin: 15% uncharged, 21% fully charged. Yellow Pikmin: 14% uncharged, 19% fully charged. White Pikmin: 9% uncharged, 12% fully charged. Purple Pikmin: 16% uncharged, 22% fully charged.

Shouldn't we be NAiring a lot more?

 

[culexus・wau]

He does has a frame disadvantage.

probably.

jab, fair, and nair more.

they **** his hitboxes.

theres no reason not to mash out of his long distance grabs [esp the pivot grabs] unless you're slow like me.


REMEMBER GUYS IF YOU CLANK WITH OLIMAR GET READY TO SDI

HE GETS TO MOVE BEFORE YOU DO BECAUSE HE DOESN'T SUFFER THE HITLAG.

which makes pikmin ****ing annoying on Castle Siege 2.

 

[phi1ny3]

I haven't played this MU much lol

all I know is you want to approach smart

olimar dair's hitbox (I think mainly w/ red/purple) is killer as a spike and has a lot of horizontal knockback, so don't get hit

SDI uair

don't be stupid with dair

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Olimar's shield is pretty difficult to poke. What do you mean about frame data for Dash and Pivot Grabs? They're eleven frames, just like standing grab, if that's what you mean. Dash Grab is generally.. bad, and pivot grab is the main thing you'll be worried about.

Oli's roll is pretty bad and his options are pretty limited if you force him near a ledge.

This is very true and you should be taking full advantage of it.

 

[Steam]

I've played fino and got *****. my input is bad.

 

[phi1ny3]

Weruop's coming to GC and I'm hoping he's not super rusty, if so, I'll put some impressions on the MU after I play him

 

[culexus・wau]

whenever you see a olimar roll into you just dsmash.

even if you think its too late dsmash.

it'll hit trust me.

If you don't want to trust me or just want to start a juggle, substitute uptilt.


like hilt said all of olimar's grabs are the same speed.

but good olimars will dash shieldgrab like DDDs instead of dashgrab.

 

[culexus・wau]

Hey I want to talk about diddy again **** the title.

Diddy's forward toss is 7 frames.

whats safe vs that?

jabs probably outspeed it by one frame.

but nair is probably the only safe thing on shield VS it

 

[hichez50]

Diddy> lucario

Olimar is a tough matchup on any really flat stage or stages without low platforms. If you are having a hard time approaching for the kill I like to use DownB if a pikmin is attaches to you. To beat olimar you will have to bait him into the air.

 

[Steam]

I wouldnt say diddy > lucario in the MU...

I'd say it's pretty even

 

[iDeo]

Diddy> lucario

Olimar is a tough matchup on any really flat stage or stages without low platforms. If you are having a hard time approaching for the kill I like to use DownB if a pikmin is attaches to you. To beat olimar you will have to bait him into the air.

Just walk away from him. Let him come to u.

 

[D Who?]

Just control your damage with the piks and watch which ones next. using what he has to your aura can provide a well placed Fsmash that can outrange his grab or f or dsmash. Thats how I beat fearless.

 

[A New England Winter]

We have more information on the Olimar MU here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283638

Just a bit of help, you know?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Okay let's discuss the fat man.

Points of interest:

• All of our air attacks outrange his air attacks.
• Our DAir comes out on Frame 4, while his UAir comes out on frame 8.
• DI his DAir up to punish with our DAir.
• If you land on a platform near him you are probably going to get punished (yet we can do the same to him).
• His air dodge lasts as long as ours with the same invincible and vulnerability frames.
• If Lucario air releases Wario Lucario can attack with NAir, possibly USmash, possibly UAir, or FAir.
• Stay on the ground too much and you will get a face full of Bite.
• If you can keep him away from his grounded Bike you will have an easier time gimping him.
• Lucario's backroll glidetoss has incredible range.
• Watch the timer for fart charging; also remember that half charged Wafts will have greater knockback and will kill you at 50% if you are near the side of a stage.
• If he FSmashes against our shield we have a variety of moves we can use to punish it (requires more testing to check which ones).
• Watch for Bite at the ledge when trying to get back on the sage, you don't want your second jump to get eaten, right?

 

[AlexoftheAura]

You can also get an fsmash out of an air release.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

You can also get an fsmash out of an air release.

Hmmmm, tipper or not?

 

[Steam]

we can fsmash him if he Fsmashes our shield.

 

[RT]

-Wario has superior mobility, so don't be surprised if you get air-camped a la DMG/Shaky style. If you encounter such a situation, you may have to consider smaller stages to keep the pressure on Wario.

-His uair is good for damage, KO, and all around air-dodge punisher. Be especially careful if you want to challenge it with dair because his uair has a lot of range.

-Just remember that grab release on him is not guaranteed.

-Chomp has grab priority, so if you see a Wario waiting with it, use a ranged attack on him.

-Don't forget about this Bike as a projectile and the tires. If his Bike is on stage, consider leaving it there so that it can reduce his recovery options.

-Wario's Fsmash/Chomp out of spotdodge...expect it.

 

[culexus・wau]

Don't let him throw the bike at you LOL that **** does like 20% really ****ing fast.

if you have the lead, FAIR WALL THE MOTHER****ER.

Grab release on him is not guranteed, but if they don't mash you can get a lot of pummels on them ircc.

remember that out of bike jump he has a bit until he can airdodge/aerial.

 

[RT]

I was thinking more when Lucario is offstage and Wario throws the bike off. If you get hit...yeah. Bad things.

 

[culexus・wau]

I respect the onstage bike throw because zebra did it once to me and racked up like 60% in one string :X

Wario can toss the bike pretty **** far too.

 

[Pitbuller26]

Maybe I'm a masochist but I want Wario to fsmash me when we're both at high percents, shielding it is a free fp grab which in most cases will take Wario's stock.

fair and ftilt make great walls against Wario.

Expect Wario to spotdodge(if you're close to him) if he whiffs his fsmash.

 

[D. Disciple]

Ban brinstar!

 

[Steam]

you can footstool Wario out of bike jump for lol gimps

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

ooops I'll post some vids here to make it a useful post

Lee Martin vs DMG 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqjL_0duubE

Lee Martin vs DMG 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8qlLq63jgQ

He goes mk game 1.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I've never seen a Lucario use BAir so much against a Wario before.

Delicious platform canceling, hmm.

 

[Browny]

Oh hey whats this? This thread is re-discussing the same top tier only matchups like it has done every week for the past year?

Call me when something interesting happens.

 

[Braxton2011]

Needs more Midtier discussion.

 

[culexus・wau]

We should do DK next.

for reals


maybe ike

 

[A New England Winter]

There's a reason why we're discussing the top tier MUs...