SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[culexus・wau]

Myth please play a fox that knows the MU like the back of your hand before you spout nonsense like that.

I don't even wanna hear "OMG SDI DAIR HE CAN'T KILL YOU OLOL"

have you ever tried catching a fox? and not a fox that just runs away, a fox that runs away with the intent of baiting you and when you're in a Advantageous position will press you instead of keeping his distance?

have you?

honestly?

lol browny so true :<

TKD too good I guess

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dunno, I've played two fox's offline in tournament, beat them both.

I played a bunch on the AiB ladder, I only lost to Zeton if I recall correctly, against him I felt like I was being outplayed rather than my character sucking against Fox.

I still hate fighting Fox.

Also I beleive SDI won't save you if he uses only the first two hits of dair, which is guaranteed Usmash.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Chill, FWK. Is exam season coming up?

If you do SDI that silly DAir from the beginning of it you can DI away enough where he has to dash to USmash ya. Have you tested this, Red Ryu? It also depends if he has to turn backwards to USmash ya, hey an extra frame can mean a lot.

When it comes to Fox we beat him in:
Air vs. Air attacks.
Air vs. Ground attacks.

Obviously, don't be silly and batter his shield with DAirs, unless ya wanna get USmashed oos.

A smart Fox player will run circles around our ground attacks plus that silly DAir.

Didn't TKD even think the Luc. vs. Fox MU was even in Lucario's favor?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think TKD thinks it's in Lucario's favor, only things I've heard is that it is the MU he knows the best. I know most of Fox boards think it's 6:4 Fox though.

I beleive Fox boards confirmed that if they only use the first two hits of dair, its guaranteed Usmash you can't Power shield even with SDI.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Do they have a video of it? Ah... Brawl these days all broken up into frames...

I've been waiting for this for the past year, hehe.

 

[Browny]

last i checked he had it as 70:30 fox advantage lol.

Also I doubt he can usmash oos if you dair-DJ-something else LIKE ALL SMART PEOPLE SHOULD.

 

[culexus・wau]

I'm not chilling Mythies, Fox is involved, so I have to be mad and stuffs.

lol he can upsmash OOS the fair before we can dair/DJ if he's quick enough, fair has very little shieldstun.

he can even trade hits with it /wrist.

this MU IS SO GAY

I rather fight falco then this ******ry tbh

 

[phi1ny3]

tbh I just say plant yourself in the ground at higher percents, all the stupid stuff involving killing comes from being in the air, so I don't see benefit beyond punishing/baiting (dair with any hit -> usmash only works on airborne characters caught in dair, although there's the thing Red Ryu mentioned, usmash has invincibility in the head to help him against aerials that try to muscle their way through it, uair is ****)

usmash will not only kill your dairs on block (if you don't space them with DJ), it'll definitely kill you on whiff/if you try to hit him out of it.

easier said than done of course, especially with his ground speed.

I had a good fox in my area (he's a pretty smart player in general) but his fox phase was very short lived (coincidentally it was during my ongoing sheik phase... you can see where this went). I'm deathly afraid of a good fox

all the fox players in my area are meh though, so I don't worry.

 

[culexus・wau]

once I'm kill % I just ****ing walk up to fox

idc about lasers hitting me anymore.

I don't want to overcommit and get upsmashed.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Never ever attack foxes shield, and be wary at higher percents habits he might have.

Fox is easy to deal with offstage, trying to gimp him is like gimping falco in a sense, but you have to know his fire trajectory. (Does it have a hitbox on startup like falcos?) Should be fine. If you don't predict a recovering fox to 2nd jump fair by now, then you are stuck in 08 my friend.

Never be directly under fox when you are close or closeish to the surface of the stage, you getting drill spiked isnt worth it for the few damage you're about to dish out. You can shield it, then try to jump before he can react, wich he most likely will retreat, or grab, both of which should miss if you shield the drill.

BTW: I'm going to write up in MS Word a guide to beating Pikachu and send it to Myth or Flame or something to transcribe into the appropriate place.

 

[RT]

once I'm kill % I just ****ing walk up to fox

idc about lasers hitting me anymore.

I don't want to overcommit and get upsmashed.

Pretty much this. After you get 80-90%, you're already in danger of dying anyways...you might as well take it nice and slow and wait for that mistake....then punish.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Pretty much this. After you get 80-90%, you're already in danger of dying anyways...you might as well take it nice and slow and wait for that mistake....then punish.

Yeah, once you are 100+ go for a hit and run, as 1 upsmash will kill you, and you can just poke in and out with aura.

Also never attack his shield at this percent.(Don't go for shield pokes is what I mean).

 

[Conviction]

The lucario in my area has never beaten me I think nothing has changed since the last time we discussed this in the Fox boards.

I mean if I play him anytime soon I'll post a video, but I don't really have a MU number but I don't see Fox losing in this MU at all.

EDIT: Wait actually there is Rayku and he has beaten me but I usually SD in our matches XD but no johns.

 

[phi1ny3]

Okay, so before it was taken down, there was set of matches of TKD against IceDX. IceDX is a fairly good lucario, I think people in SoCal who've played him would say that he's a fairly solid, midlevel player.

If you watched these matches, you would see why this MU is frustrating.

 

[culexus・wau]

I should get IceDX to give us a write-up

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

On neutrals if you DI Fox's USmash down and away from Fox, you should be able to survive a fresh one at slightly over 100%.

 

[phi1ny3]

Speaking of DI, I survived both a snake and fox utilt/usmash respectively by taking the hitlag that sent me up and SDIing into the ground so that I got knocked into the ground instead of dying.

I'm looking into a way to replicate it more, because although it's not too useful if they get the jump on you with the kill move, it could still be pretty useful imo.

 

[RT]

Yeah, you just have to SDI down like crazy. You can do it to almost any move that launches you vertically...I've seen it done on MK's utilt, dsmash, and dash attack, Marth's utilt, ICs usmash, etc...it's easier at low percents. Slopes also make it easier. At high percents, it's near impossible unless you SDI like a madman.

Needless to say, don't rely on it saving you...unless you're a wizard or something.

 

[hichez50]

Master dat smash DI. Anyway I just peck away at fox still he aroun 60+.
@iblis I only remember playing you once in friendlies.

 

[Browny]

Speaking of DI, I survived both a snake and fox utilt/usmash respectively by taking the hitlag that sent me up and SDIing into the ground so that I got knocked into the ground instead of dying.

I'm looking into a way to replicate it more, because although it's not too useful if they get the jump on you with the kill move, it could still be pretty useful imo.

Ive done this a few times.... All while on YI:B's platform >_>

 

[RT]

Dat slope.

Just for reference for those that are confused..

 

[Steam]

I wish we had SideB chaingrab so we could CG> Grab release at ledge> gay gimp stuff. Would make this matchup a lot easier.

It's annoying and stupid but nowhere near as hard as like Snake/D3/Marth

55:45 Fawx IMO

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Okay. I have a neighbor who mains just Fox. So here's my strategy vs him, if it helps:

Fox is a very fast character, that is very depending on movement in the air. You should definitely try to go to more ground based levels against Fox ALWAYS, like FD or SV. Just the initial thought when going in against a Fox.

Although we're light, with the proper SDI going directly left or right I've survived Fox's fresh U-Smash up to 105-110%! That's pretty freakin high considering OUR weight and his powerful foot.

As far as projectiles go, I say that Lucario has the upper hand. Fox's gun is very easy to dodge and approach against, as it has zero knockback. Using baby auras at low % to get him to approach is a fantastic method, because if he decides to reflect, it'll disappear before even getting to you, and chances are he probably won't even reflect anyway. What is this, Melee ?

He's a speed demon, and will **** us in the air. So that's not a great way to approach. Fox's like to use drill (dair) combos as an approach tactic. Utilts are the answer to that. It's decent range and priority in comparison to the drill will stop em in his tracks. And if you decide to approach, most of the time the simple fair-dair will do the trick to get em up. But...

Here's the thing: DO NOT FOLLOW A FOX OFF OF THE STAGE. A second jump-fair by a Fox is a good added 15%, since the double jump will make you sucked into all 5? (i think it's 5, may be 4 or 6) kicks, PLUS gets you the f*** away from him, which you don't want if you're actually following him off of the stage. Now, if you're the one forced off the stage and are being followed off by a Fox, it can be painful. The thing I find the most useful to get a bit of space is a simple fair and scurrying back on the stage. Trust me babe, you'll probably find yourself without a stock if you follow a Fox off the stage. It's suicide.

Now, one last thing to discuss: Recovery. I personally like our recovery, cuz it gives us some leeway. Usually an opponent thinks "Durr hurr imma grab da ledge since dey can't attack". Fox will usually do the same. So for the first few times, just going onto the stage will work. But when that Fox realizes that ledge hogging won't really work well, that's when you go into s***ing your pants mode. Try to make space as fast as possible, just enough space to give yourself time to grab the ledge and get on the stage. It's your safe haven.

Now, when a Fox recovers... we're in the drivers seat. He has two ways of recovering: Foward and UpB. When a Fox uses FowardB, they're not grabbing the ledge, so don't assume that they will. They're looking to land on the stage. That's when you can go into your fair-dair, or your foward B, or whatever you please. Now, Fox's UpB is fun . A perfectly timed dair will send a Fox either stage spiked, or the opposite way of the stage. And when a Fox does his UpB, your dair>his UpB. And if you wanna take the ledge hog approach, you can since his UpB is pretty predictable. But he'll get on the stage if he's kinda close to it. He gets decent horizontal air movement.

Summary: 55:45 Lucario. Just... don't go off of the stage and you'll win. A good Fox CAN beat you if you're not careful.

 

[Rizk18]

heres my 2 cents, i play a pretty good lucario every few days(mti) and the most things i find lucarios doing is rolling behind you, and apporoaching with fair,or some usually dair spam if their above u and i sheild grab them. SHTL works really good here because i run away and shtl until i see an opening and i punish/capitilize on the moment.also ive found thru my expeirnce that jumping behind lucario into bair works pretty well. killing is based on how u play and how ur opponent plays,i read rolls and usmash them,or when they approach with fair,i sheild to oos usmash.dair setup doesnt work that good unless the last hit is the only one hit because they can sdi away from us .50-50

 

[Steam]

@gordito- Just about every single thing you said was completely wrong. like the opposite of correct. not even partially correct. worst post ever IMO.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

That's me vs my neighbor dude. Idk any other Foxes. You wanna fight his logic go ahead. That's just my piece, and how I see it.

 

[D. Disciple]

Nice post Gordito.

 

[Steam]

well... I'll point the stuff out.

Lucario is not light. he's floaty yes but he's a mid-heavy.

fox outcamps us. auraspheres are slow and fire slow and it's pretty easy for fox to get around them/ reflect them while building our damage and refreshing his moves with his laser. really the most annoying thing in this matchup is trying to catch up to fox while avoiding getting punished hard for something.

we "beat" Fox in the air, we also beat him on the ground. however none of that matters when all he's doing is running and punishing openings.

Fox will not approach. if he does for some reason we can punish anything on shield with jab or Grab. and just like jab/grab earlier if you think he'll mix in a grab.

Always follow fox offstage... Both luc and fox **** each other's recovery but us moreso than him. if fox is high up you should probably wait on stage to punish illusion. remember he can shine stall as well. If Fox is down low you should almost always gimp him. When we're above him our Fair beats fox's Fair and will take away his double jump if he's DJFairing. from there just fair>dair or something and he'll be out of range.

if we're recovering low fox should just grab the ledge and drop off and shine gimp us when we UpB... if we're down low we're basically screwed.

Overall this matchup is stupid because fox just runs away the whole time and punishes well.

it's like the falco matchup except he can't camp as well and he kills a looooot better.

 

[Conviction]

Why do you guys think Fox is going on stage if he side b's? That's just stupid as Fox to do repeatedly. Rising Fair is good vertical option and get you back to the ledge and/or close enough to where can shinestall to mix-up whether or not you want to land on stage, even then you can cancel the Illision. I'm not saying Fox isn't gimpable. He is. It's just not as easy as I've seen written out here.

 

[Steam]

oh yeah I forgot to point out that fox could just illusion to the ledge.

I know our Fair beats fox's when we're above him or diagonally above him. straight in front fox's fair baaaaaarely wins IIRC.

edit: but yeah by the same token if we DI properly we shouldn't be getting gimped. Punished maybe, but not gimped.

 

[Alus]

well... I'll point the stuff out.

Lucario is not light. he's floaty yes but he's a mid-heavy.

fox outcamps us. auraspheres are slow and fire slow and it's pretty easy for fox to get around them/ reflect them while building our damage and refreshing his moves with his laser. really the most annoying thing in this matchup is trying to catch up to fox while avoiding getting punished hard for something.

we "beat" Fox in the air, we also beat him on the ground. however none of that matters when all he's doing is running and punishing openings.

Fox will not approach. if he does for some reason we can punish anything on shield with jab or Grab. and just like jab/grab earlier if you think he'll mix in a grab.

Always follow fox offstage... Both luc and fox **** each other's recovery but us moreso than him. if fox is high up you should probably wait on stage to punish illusion. remember he can shine stall as well. If Fox is down low you should almost always gimp him. When we're above him our Fair beats fox's Fair and will take away his double jump if he's DJFairing. from there just fair>dair or something and he'll be out of range.

if we're recovering low fox should just grab the ledge and drop off and shine gimp us when we UpB... if we're down low we're basically screwed.

Overall this matchup is stupid because fox just runs away the whole time and punishes well.

it's like the falco matchup except he can't camp as well and he kills a looooot better.

Fox is up high... So he uses illusion?

I also am wondering how to force fox to recover low.

 

[phi1ny3]

Fox imo is overall harder to edgeguard than Falco merely because he has a lot more tools which free him from relying on weaker aspects of his character's flaws (Falco has to rely on second jump HEAVILY), even though his illusion isn't quite as good, it still gets the job done. Not to mention his upB is significantly better than Falco's.

Oh, and it's harder to use AS as a limiter against fox because unlike Falco, Fox's shine allows him to not lose vertical distance from use.

 

[Steam]

we can Grab release him to get him low. otherwise we probably have to hope for Poor DI because he can shine stall and has his massive DJ.

 

[phi1ny3]

And even then, he has some stall mixup that can help him a little after the grab release.

Plus grabbing someone over the edge is pretty situational, especially with Lucario's grab range.

 

[Steam]

yeah... We could probably also get FPgrab > Grab to get him at the ledge. Most people don't mash out of the first one so it's not too bad. Also even an air release out of a FPgrab in that position would put him below stage level and put us at a positional advantage.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Also amazing news with fox.

If you jab him to jab 2 only RIGHT at the ledge

he don't grab the ledge automatically (neither does wolf/sheik/link)... :3

 

[D. Disciple]

so you're saying, I can dtilt him after jab 2?

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

so you're saying, I can dtilt him after jab 2?

I think he falls FASTER then that, where he is now below the lip when you can dtilt.

I believe it was jab 1 or 2 that did this, I was finding this out when figuring what percent aura sphere would hit people on the ledge.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Here is my input on the match-up.

Lucario needs to play this a lot differently similar to how he has to adjust to playing against Diddy. Things that would be normally be ok for Lucario to do aren't true for this match-up. Normally you would want to catch characters on landing, that doesn't work well on Fox because of his shine being able to stall himself in the air. You can't really camp Fox because of his speed, blaster, and reflector.

First off grabs, if you grab him early, do the Uthrow CG to 38% and finish it with a Dthrow so it will do a total of 48%. Aura will get in the way of this if you don;t catch him near equal % or your % is high. My general rule of thumb is 25% is the most to go to with Uthrow, after that regrab and end with a Dthrow to do 35%. You can still regrab him at 25% if he tries to jump away, but then he can shine out, but if you shield his shine you can shield grab him, kind of a tech chase sort of thing. At max aura I don't thing we can even regrab him because the knockback is too high. Other than that, I would Bthrow if your close to the ledge behind you, if not go for the Dthrow usually. Fthrow if it can kill or get him off stage.

Be very careful of using Fsmash, at higher % and spaced well, I'm pretty sure non powershielded Fsmash's are safe, if you misspace or he power shields it, he can punish it.

Spacing is key in this match-up, you need to keep proper distance while being careful of not run into something. Keep approaching, Fox will keep camping lasers looking to bait us into a poor approach. Tilts and jabs are what I would recommend, Fair as well if you can do it while rising.

Aura Sphere...well it's not great here, we can still use it to force a reflector response or even bait it. Like a lot of match-ups with a reflector, don't throw it predictably. It's not worthless in this match-up but you need to be very careful while using this. BAS is fine to try and stop his laser camping for a second or so, FCAS is different that should be a baiting tool, if he reflects it...well hope your not too close when you did, lol.

Fox's Usmash, I honestly think it's the best Usmash in the game when you consider everything it does. It will kill us around 120% on common stages I beleive...the thing is with Fox while he falls fast is pretty light. Around the same % we die, we have enough aura at that % to kill him well. However this isn't like Snake where if he don't kill him first we might have serious issues killing, we could die first and still get a kill in. He does have a could of kill set-ups, dair is only a kill set-up into this if he only hits with the first two hits of it, otherwise you can DI and powershield the Usmash. I've heard he has some other legit set-ups/combos into it, but I haven't seen anyone do these or even tell me about them.

In the air I think we solidly win, even with his shine stalling to help him avoid juggles we kinda can just out space him. Our horizontal air speed is better, while his jump height is better than ours.

We can gimp him better than he can gimp us. His recovery is definitively better than Falco's, having a better second jump plus his Fair to help him get more vertical movement, but a lot of the same principles follow with trying to gimp him. If he goes for the stage catch him in phantasm, the timing is different Fox delays a bit before he launches off. If he goes for the ledge try to edgehog. Aura sphere can still work, but like I said before if you are going to fire it, make sure you have enough distance to shield if in case of shine.

Stages, pick to ban Battlefield or Halberd, I personally ban Battlefield because the platform layout helps him a lot, over the fact Halberd has a lower ceiling. It's up to you which to ban, both can be bad in many aspects. I would counter pick Frigate or anyplace that is smaller in size. I think larger stages with more platforms assist him much more than it assists us in this match-up.

I think this match-up is 50:50, it's annoying because you have to change a lot of what you do but when you do it's a lot easier to handle. We have better spacing tools and aerials, but he has a better speed and camp game to bait and attack.

My input.

 

[Alus]

Is fair difficult to hit fox out of off stage?