Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[the king of murder]

I'll continue this for the lulz. Why is this so good if there are so many priority users with higher Speed? Or rather, what about Scizor?

I was talking about the Ubers. If Ray is EV trained on speed and attack it can be quit difficult to counter it for some Ubers. Arceus does a better job though.

 

[PowerBomb]

I think so, the pokedex gives up insight to certain pokemon's attributes that cannot be attained through the gameplay of a turn-based game like pokemon.

This has my vote. Both for moves and the standard pokedex.

This is probably a better alternative to just banning the Dex in totality.

I was talking about the Ubers. If Ray is EV trained on speed and attack it can be quit difficult to counter it for some Ubers. Arceus does a better job though.

Yeah, but no actual 'good' Arceus' can be obtained on Wi-fi (unless hacking >_>). Of course, if you're using a simulator, then that changes.

 

[the king of murder]

Lucky that I live in germany. I can download an Arceus in some shops till april 10th.

 

[PKNintendo]

Rayquaza with Swordsdance+Extremespeed+Outrage+Eartquake equipped with Focus Sash is more annoying. That's my opinion anyway.

You clearly don't play Ubers.
1) Arceus is useless due to it being obtained at level 100. So no max EV training (only 100 MAX for a stat)
2) Stealth Rock is omnipresent and thus Focus sash is useless on anything that isn't a lead.

Yeah, the base speed stats (and stats for that matter really) mean jack **** and I can name a few examples right now as to why they are bad. For starters Pidgeot is flying at mach 2, Garchomp is moving at jet speeds beyond the speed of sound, and so on according to their dex entries. Yet their speed stats are 91, and 102 respectfully.

No. Ingame stats>Dex entries especially with all of it's BS. We talk about game mechanics not useless crap like the pokedex. Especially considering they state that Flareon is 1600 degree's Farenheit upon touch.

Things like Sonic Battle disagree with you

Tied for max speed and slower than Mecha Sonic yet in single player he runs faster than Shadow.

Yeah but before he goes super M2 can stop him, and I don’t know why you think the chaos emeralds are good to keep around psychics who have been shown in the Sonic canon to be able to use them.

Sonic is FASTER Than Mewtwo. He clearly outspeeds, I mean he's basically KNOWN FOR THAT

Mewtwo if the total moveset it has is right is able to control the weather.

Good for him. Alakazam can control all kinds of weather... so!?!?!

In MD it is possible to link the attacks. Mew2 uses one attack and immediately attacks with another. That means he can use 2 attacks in a row. So you can combine the effects.

Of course he has to approach first which can be quit difficult.

One of the reasons why I'm leaning towards a tie.

Yeah I know about that pathetic gimmicky. Your stuck using both moves, and it can take up a good amount of PP. LOL lemme guess, Embargo + Trick Roon LOLOLOL.

Give me a more concise reason on to why it deserves to be a tie?

 

[PowerBomb]

Actually, here's something hilarious: Sonic uses Time Stop FIRST, and moves FIRST since he's faster than Mewtwo. Mewtwo does not know what to expect (I mean really, I don't know why we have the Scan Visor Online thing going. None of these opponents would likely know what they're up against). Besides, Mewtwo can't stop the Time Stop anyway. Time is frozen, Sonic mauls Mewtwo, and as soon as the Time Stop ends, he transforms into Super Sonic (Mewtwo cannot Psych Up these; otherwise it would be able to copy Tyranitar's 'invincible armor'). Super Sonic then continually mauls Mewtwo as his leisure.

I'm pretty sure Super Sonic's speed would let him attack Mewtwo in rapid succession, perhaps even stopping Mewtwo from ever even using an attack (think Doubleslap in PMD). Since PMD Mewtwo probably has some high amount of Reviver Seeds, Super Sonic can continually attack until Mewtwo eventually runs out of Seeds.

Would that work?

@Uberspeak: Giratina blocks all Rapid Spinners, and it's EVERYWHERE apparently, since it's better than Lugia at walling.

 

[BSP]

If powerbomb is right about Psyche up not being able to copy SS power, Sonic's got it in the bag. And how would M2 respond to a time stop first?

 

[_clinton]

1) Arceus is useless due to it being obtained at level 100. So no max EV training (only 100 MAX for a stat)

I could have sworn you could make Arceus EV trained by just doing the said requirements for it for one stat one point at a time, dumping it into the PC, than taking it out again. It takes a while though because after level 100 you have to do the box trick A LOT, but you can do it.

No. Ingame stats>Dex entries especially with all of it's BS.

The Dex has far less BS than what the movesets, stats, and so on imply. So, how come you're ok with a with a system that has something like a rattata having control over the weather, or stuff like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7b3bOQ6lY

All things like that video there just show one thing, that the BULK of pokemon's game mechs. in general are NOT good data to go by because it is trying to make a battle system where everything is "evened" out to a point at the end, as in it is doing what Brawl is doing for the most part in case you need a comparison.

I mean I’m not saying the moves and so on are 100% bad but when something like Pikachu is learning surf (or said Rattata and their control over the weather), I’m going to disagree with the stuff.

We talk about game mechanics not useless crap like the pokedex.

This thread is about canon.

However, another problem with game mechs. is that they aren't going to be the same all the time in between games, because game types can change. Hell they aren't even the same in the same types of game play (1st gen mechs are by far more different from 4th gen mechs. of course).

Realistically, there is nothing wrong for the most part with using game mechs. as an example of canon ability (because that is what they are trying to show anyway) and they do a pretty nice job at doing things like showing that the speed booster being invulnerable is BS from Metroid, but whatever.

However, the main games for pokemon/others (even the games in the main games), and things like PMD have different game mechs. (please show me the "speed" stat in the 1st gen of PMD) but are pretty much saying the same things, so things like that create issues (such as Mario's life system).

A lot of the game mechs. in case you can't tell by me pointing out some other examples don't really make sense. Even something such as "level" in pokemon, because "EV training" is also around for starters (and talked about in the canon on top of that, just not called EVs), and it really is the only thing that truly separates trained from non-trained pokemon according to the game's stories itself, NOT LEVEL, level doesn't do ****.

Going on, the dex is actually backed up by the games as far as canon info goes. You see proof in game what several pokemon are able to do:

-Such as Gyarados and the Lake of Rage in the 2nd gen. However, you most certainly don't see the game say that Gyarados has an 81 for a base speed stat in any of the canon story.

-You see people get turned into pokemon for the story itself, and the dex even reports it happening with things like Kadabra's entries.

-Guess what the 1st gen of PMD’s story is about when it comes to Ninetails and curses?

Tied for max speed and slower than Mecha Sonic yet in single player he runs faster than Shadow.

Sonic Battle isn’t Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, this is what Sonic Battle is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Hb9j_yMdU&feature=related

Shadow has a higher max speed than Sonic in that game.

Also where is your proof that he runs faster than Shadow in single player for SA2, just wondering? Last I checked their game styles for that game are the same.

Sonic is FASTER Than Mewtwo. He clearly outspeeds, I mean he's basically KNOWN FOR THAT

Yes, Sonic is known for his speed, so what. Mewtwo is so powerful that he is uncontrollable to humanity (the game says it not me) despite people showing having control over things with landscape destroying, mach speed moving monsters in the game’s canon.

Good for him. Alakazam can control all kinds of weather... so!?!?!

Mewtwo has proof backing his control over it, such as having all of the 4 types of it for a movepool/dex/history of it in game, but what do Alakazam/Rattata have again (sense they learn the same 2 moves when it comes to control over it in case you can’t tell) to back up their control over it?

Give me a more concise reason on to why it deserves to be a tie?

I still want to know why you think M2 is going to be unable to keep up with Sonic when other psychics in general for his game’s canon could (so, what makes you think Silver is better than Mewtwo).

And how would M2 respond to a time stop first?

So here is a bit of info, a pokemon that can control time in general is already on the list of things that only are controllable to humanity because they let themselves become caught according to the canon, they pretty much are showing something that Mewtwo has only been shown to do so far despite all of the other pokemon having things like control over the lands, seas, and skies.

 

[PowerBomb]

_clinton, what?

If Mewtwo can freely control space, time, and global weather patterns, as well as antimatter, please tell me how.

 

[Kitamerby]

Mewtwo uses selfdestruct.

Everyone dies.

It's a tie. :D

Also @ Powerbomb: teleport, rain dance, and shadow ball. <3

 

[_clinton]

If Mewtwo can freely control space, time, and global weather patterns, as well as antimatter, please tell me how.

Excuse me but I'm pretty sure I never said M2 could freely control space, time and all that other stuff. I just said that he has fought off being held to the point where he has something comparable to things that can control space, time, and such, because canon wise they are the only things I've seen to show enough force to resist being caught if they wanted to.

However, I think it having a BST in the main gen games that ties with stuff like Ho-oh, Lugia, Rayquaza, Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina should say something IMO, of course even the games hint that the thing is still at the least tied for the best still with several things that do some ****ed up stuff already, and all of them are beating a ton of pokemon that also do crazy things (besides "god" now, which beats them), I mean Ray seems to be more powerful canon wise than Kyogre and Groudon (its suppose to stop them fighting or something if the event comes up according to the 3rd gen game it has), and Mewtwo ties with Ray, and things like Ho-oh and Lugia are very powerful as well (like I have to explain that, Ho-oh brings three pokemon to life, and Lugia is able to make biblical sized storms).

But whatever, its not like Mewtwo has a pokedex entry or 20 saying its battle abilities were raised to the ultimate level, and it is a very dangerous vicious being that thinks of nothing else but battle when such a thing comes up (the game's info is way better than what that movie did IMO, Mewtwo being "evil" is so much better than the other thing).

And unlike some other stats (speed), BST actually makes sense in this context because the only things that are "out of place" on there based off what they can do in the 580 and up area is Slaking, and he has the worse ability in the game in order to make up for it if anything (yeah things like T-Tar make sense at around 600, just saying).

 

[ElPanandero]

I'm not trying to be a ****, but...Even though Sonic is fast, when did it become decided that his speed is measurable compared to other characters int heir respective games. Especially using in-game stats as the main unit of measure, there is no way to decide that if Sonic was given a speed stat, how it would match up.

though he probably is faster...

 

[PowerBomb]

Mewtwo uses selfdestruct.

Everyone dies.

It's a tie. :D

Also @ Powerbomb: teleport, rain dance, and shadow ball. <3

Snorlax using Self-destruct is cooler. And that moveset is illegal :D

I'm not trying to be a ****, but...Even though Sonic is fast, when did it become decided that his speed is measurable compared to other characters int heir respective games. Especially using in-game stats as the main unit of measure, there is no way to decide that if Sonic was given a speed stat, how it would match up.

though he probably is faster...

Well, he IS Sonic, and Mewtwo is not the fastest in his game (hell, his Dex entries don't even say anything about him being quick). We'd have to make assumptions based on his Base Speed, which is quite high. So we know Mewtwo's at least somewhat fast, but is he fast enough to match Sonic?

Probably not.

@_clinton: What? I thought you were all for the segregation of gameplay and story or something and said stats and BST among other stuff were un-canon.

 

[Diddy Kong]

He's basically saying that stats make sence when comparing ubers, but that stats for things like Slaking make less sence given it's canon abilities, right?

I still want to know why you think M2 is going to be unable to keep up with Sonic when other psychics in general for his game’s canon could (so, what makes you think Silver is better than Mewtwo).

I agree with this.

About Mewtwo not being able to match Sonic... That's bull****. How come say Dr.Eggman could catch up (and even outspeeds him in the original games?) but Mewtwo cannot even hit him according to you guys? No doubt Sonic is still faster. But not by too much that he could say, run circles around Mewtwo. Why is that always assumed with Sonic? Really, you can hate Mewtwo, but most Sonic fanboys are way worse.

Which is why we need to look at it objectively.

 

[Samochan]

*sigh*

Am I really the only one here who's not the least bit bothered of confused over game mechanics + pokedex entries? >_>

Jeez, rattata cannot control the weather, rattata can only make it rain for some period of time. Pokemons use energy called power points to do their moves they've learned. The more energy it needs (and usually more powerful/useful), the less PP it has, meaning pokemon can only do such powerful energy consuming move as many times as it has pp. Elixirs and such restore pokemon's energy level, while PP up ups the pokemon energy efficency. This energy is mentioned in trainer tips on pokemon platinum, on the route right from jubilife city. So there's no wonder why typhlosion, for example, can learn thunderpunch, even when typhlosion is not an electric type pokemon nor should be able to generate electricity from anywhere. Same goes for many other pokemons.

Note, only kyogre and groudon are said to control weathers (and rayquaza in different way) and it certainly shows too. Even us humans can make it rain for period of time, but weather control or more like manipulation? Heck no, far from it. We cannnot get even a tiny drizzle when it's sunny and no clouds in sight, but Kyogre and Groudon make it sunny or rainy anyday of the week without a hitch, just like when they were competing of dominace in pokemon Emerald, changing back and fort between rain and sun. Besides, some rain from clouds when they already have water in em doesn't seem like much when pokemons actually produce water out of nowhere without suffering from any dehydration themselves. Basically the water either comes magically out of the pokemon themselves, using up the energy they have or they create water out of particles in the air. Either way, even a simple thing such as that is fairly broken.

I'd also like to note that comparing stats and pokedex entries needs something a bit more than just comparision and declaring it illogical. Note that pidgeot is said to be able to fly at mach 2 when in atmosphere, aka pidgeot needs to built up it's speed to be capable of flying at that speed. It's simply impossible in battles where the room is limited to visual range. Pidgeot's built is neither light or small enough to be super agile such as Swellow, which is noted for it's speed stat however is not much of an marathon flyer. If you compare them to real life animals, the resemblance is uncanny. Mewtwo might neither be capable of going at mach 2 speeds, but one must note he's one heck of a powerful psychic capable of levitation and teleportation, whicn in turn gives him superb maneuverability compared to a pidgeot whom needs to use it's wings and body to maneuver. As such, the speed stat is not actual speed of the pokemon nor max speed, but more or less the agility of the pokemon on battlefield. Garchomp can also fly like a jet plane when hunting, but whenever would Garchomp actually fold it's wings and fly in a not-so-roomy battlefield like that? I mean, he still needs to take orders from his trainer lol and on most occasions have visual contact with the adversary. Then we have slaking, who has truant as in you'd think he'd be very very slow... but when slaking wants to do something, he'll do so with suprising agility. Gorillas can be very fast too. I might not be a marathon runner, but there's a chance I might be just a bit more agile than some muscular person, or vice versa.

As further note to this same subject of speed, macho brace for example couldn't really slow a flying pokemon down, for example, as the brace is not nearly heavy enough like Iron ball is. What it does is greatly reduce agility, making movement more difficult with a workout brace like that. Iron ball is just so heavy it makes moving around quickly more taxing and Lagging tail is well, lagging tail.

All I'm asking is to read between the lines. Aka not "pidgeot flies at mach 2" which would imply that pidgeot's fly at mach 2 all the time, but it doesn't reflect on it's actual speed stat, but "Pidgeot can fly at mach 2" or "Pidgeot's fly at mach 2 in the atmosphere", transforming the meaning of it completely.

I have to say Mewtwo cannot really exceed supersonic speeds though lol. But that's just speed, Mewtwo's maneuverable as hell.

 

[PKNintendo]

Good god...

I could have sworn you could make Arceus EV trained by just doing the said requirements for it for one stat one point at a time, dumping it into the PC, than taking it out again. It takes a while though because after level 100 you have to do the box trick A LOT, but you can do it.

Guess again, the box trick doesn't work in DPPHGSS. Arceus is illegal in competitive play.

The Dex has far less BS than what the movesets, stats, and so on imply. So, how come you're ok with a with a system that has something like a rattata having control over the weather, or stuff like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7b3bOQ6lY

All things like that video there just show one thing, that the BULK of pokemon's game mechs. in general are NOT good data to go by because it is trying to make a battle system where everything is "evened" out to a point at the end, as in it is doing what Brawl is doing for the most part in case you need a comparison.

I mean I’m not saying the moves and so on are 100% bad but when something like Pikachu is learning surf (or said Rattata and their control over the weather), I’m going to disagree with the stuff.

I'm sorry since when did you make the precedent for what's right and what's wrong? I can feasibly see Magikarp sweeping because
A: It had help
B: The opponent used non-ev trained pokemon.

You are actually disallowing pokemon to use their own moves? Talk about grasping at straws.

This thread is about canon.

However, another problem with game mechs. is that they aren't going to be the same all the time in between games, because game types can change. Hell they aren't even the same in the same types of game play (1st gen mechs are by far more different from 4th gen mechs. of course).

Realistically, there is nothing wrong for the most part with using game mechs. as an example of canon ability (because that is what they are trying to show anyway) and they do a pretty nice job at doing things like showing that the speed booster being invulnerable is BS from Metroid, but whatever.

However, the main games for pokemon/others (even the games in the main games), and things like PMD have different game mechs. (please show me the "speed" stat in the 1st gen of PMD) but are pretty much saying the same things, so things like that create issues (such as Mario's life system).

A lot of the game mechs. in case you can't tell by me pointing out some other examples don't really make sense. Even something such as "level" in pokemon, because "EV training" is also around for starters (and talked about in the canon on top of that, just not called EVs), and it really is the only thing that truly separates trained from non-trained pokemon according to the game's stories itself, NOT LEVEL, level doesn't do ****.

~yawn~
and?

Going on, the dex is actually backed up by the games as far as canon info goes. You see proof in game what several pokemon are able to do:

-Such as Gyarados and the Lake of Rage in the 2nd gen. However, you most certainly don't see the game say that Gyarados has an 81 for a base speed stat in any of the canon story.

-You see people get turned into pokemon for the story itself, and the dex even reports it happening with things like Kadabra's entries.

-Guess what the 1st gen of PMD’s story is about when it comes to Ninetails and curses?

Lol, those are a few when compared to the BS that is the pokedex. Both Flareon and Marcargo are hotter touch then the sun itself.

I could name more but I am in hurry.

Sonic Battle isn’t Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, this is what Sonic Battle is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Hb9j_yMdU&feature=related

Shadow has a higher max speed than Sonic in that game.

Also where is your proof that he runs faster than Shadow in single player for SA2, just wondering? Last I checked their game styles for that game are the same.

There is a noticeable difference in-game.

Yes, Sonic is known for his speed, so what. Mewtwo is so powerful that he is uncontrollable to humanity (the game says it not me) despite people showing having control over things with landscape destroying, mach speed moving monsters in the game’s canon.

The pokedex is not a legitimate source but what ever. I'm not budging here.

Mewtwo has proof backing his control over it, such as having all of the 4 types of it for a movepool/dex/history of it in game, but what do Alakazam/Rattata have again (sense they learn the same 2 moves when it comes to control over it in case you can’t tell) to back up their control over it?

I don't care. Way to draw us away from the main point, but if you want Mewtwo to control all 4 weathers you waste up 4 moveslots.

I still want to know why you think M2 is going to be unable to keep up with Sonic when other psychics in general for his game’s canon could (so, what makes you think Silver is better than Mewtwo).

They are generally around his speed, but I'm adamant that Sonic is faster here. Not moving here either.

So here is a bit of info, a pokemon that can control time in general is already on the list of things that only are controllable to humanity because they let themselves become caught according to the canon, they pretty much are showing something that Mewtwo has only been shown to do so far despite all of the other pokemon having things like control over the lands, seas, and skies.

-_- not even going to bother here. Anywho, Celebi is the only pokemon with control over time.

Your whole argument hinges on "Mewtwo's a ****** pokemon thus he can do anything + Pokedex=canon"

Canon has as much to do with gameplay too.


Also STOP DANCING AROUND THE QUESTION

I want one. ONE ****ING moveset for Mewtwo to use against Sonic. And you only GET one.

NOTHING SITUATIONAL BECAUSE I SWEAR.

 

[PowerBomb]

*sigh*

Am I really the only one here who's not the least bit bothered of confused over game mechanics + pokedex entries? >_>

Jeez, rattata cannot control the weather, rattata can only make it rain for some period of time. Pokemons use energy called power points to do their moves they've learned. The more energy it needs (and usually more powerful/useful), the less PP it has, meaning pokemon can only do such powerful energy consuming move as many times as it has pp. Elixirs and such restore pokemon's energy level, while PP up ups the pokemon energy efficency. This energy is mentioned in trainer tips on pokemon platinum, on the route right from jubilife city. So there's no wonder why typhlosion, for example, can learn thunderpunch, even when typhlosion is not an electric type pokemon nor should be able to generate electricity from anywhere. Same goes for many other pokemons.

Note, only kyogre and groudon are said to control weathers (and rayquaza in different way) and it certainly shows too. Even us humans can make it rain for period of time, but weather control or more like manipulation? Heck no, far from it. We cannnot get even a tiny drizzle when it's sunny and no clouds in sight, but Kyogre and Groudon make it sunny or rainy anyday of the week without a hitch, just like when they were competing of dominace in pokemon Emerald, changing back and fort between rain and sun. Besides, some rain from clouds when they already have water in em doesn't seem like much when pokemons actually produce water out of nowhere without suffering from any dehydration themselves. Basically the water either comes magically out of the pokemon themselves, using up the energy they have or they create water out of particles in the air. Either way, even a simple thing such as that is fairly broken.

I'd also like to note that comparing stats and pokedex entries needs something a bit more than just comparision and declaring it illogical. Note that pidgeot is said to be able to fly at mach 2 when in atmosphere, aka pidgeot needs to built up it's speed to be capable of flying at that speed. It's simply impossible in battles where the room is limited to visual range. Pidgeot's built is neither light or small enough to be super agile such as Swellow, which is noted for it's speed stat however is not much of an marathon flyer. If you compare them to real life animals, the resemblance is uncanny. Mewtwo might neither be capable of going at mach 2 speeds, but one must note he's one heck of a powerful psychic capable of levitation and teleportation, whicn in turn gives him superb maneuverability compared to a pidgeot whom needs to use it's wings and body to maneuver. As such, the speed stat is not actual speed of the pokemon nor max speed, but more or less the agility of the pokemon on battlefield. Garchomp can also fly like a jet plane when hunting, but whenever would Garchomp actually fold it's wings and fly in a not-so-roomy battlefield like that? I mean, he still needs to take orders from his trainer lol and on most occasions have visual contact with the adversary. Then we have slaking, who has truant as in you'd think he'd be very very slow... but when slaking wants to do something, he'll do so with suprising agility. Gorillas can be very fast too. I might not be a marathon runner, but there's a chance I might be just a bit more agile than some muscular person, or vice versa.

As further note to this same subject of speed, macho brace for example couldn't really slow a flying pokemon down, for example, as the brace is not nearly heavy enough like Iron ball is. What it does is greatly reduce agility, making movement more difficult with a workout brace like that. Iron ball is just so heavy it makes moving around quickly more taxing and Lagging tail is well, lagging tail.

All I'm asking is to read between the lines. Aka not "pidgeot flies at mach 2" which would imply that pidgeot's fly at mach 2 all the time, but it doesn't reflect on it's actual speed stat, but "Pidgeot can fly at mach 2" or "Pidgeot's fly at mach 2 in the atmosphere", transforming the meaning of it completely.

I have to say Mewtwo cannot really exceed supersonic speeds though lol. But that's just speed, Mewtwo's maneuverable as hell.

This gives us another perspective... an interesting one, and one that can be used easily. When EL Pandero gives his opinion on this, I'll revisit it.

 

[ElPanandero]

I think this is the balance we were looking for. This is probably the most logical way to go about which moves/actions are feasible in this tournament. We take a look at the move itself, and compare it to the...movedex was it? The same for pokemon and movepools: We look at moves a pokemon can learn, specifically, and from their see how certain attributes of a pokemon (possibly from the Pokedex) and apply them where it is fit.

I like Samo' analysis of certain move-traits combined with the physical traits of the pokemon. This is probably the most feasible way to apply this.

As for the effect on the battle. This is where teleportation should be considered a valid move because logically the move teleport would have in battle uses before randomly teleporting to a select group of buildings...though Sonic's time control powers (where are these from exactly?) apprently trump anything anywhere (Sounding a lot like Samus >.>)

 

[PKNintendo]

*sigh*

Am I really the only one here who's not the least bit bothered of confused over game mechanics + pokedex entries? >_>

Jeez, rattata cannot control the weather, rattata can only make it rain for some period of time. Pokemons use energy called power points to do their moves they've learned. The more energy it needs (and usually more powerful/useful), the less PP it has, meaning pokemon can only do such powerful energy consuming move as many times as it has pp. Elixirs and such restore pokemon's energy level, while PP up ups the pokemon energy efficency. This energy is mentioned in trainer tips on pokemon platinum, on the route right from jubilife city. So there's no wonder why typhlosion, for example, can learn thunderpunch, even when typhlosion is not an electric type pokemon nor should be able to generate electricity from anywhere. Same goes for many other pokemons.

Note, only kyogre and groudon are said to control weathers (and rayquaza in different way) and it certainly shows too. Even us humans can make it rain for period of time, but weather control or more like manipulation? Heck no, far from it. We cannnot get even a tiny drizzle when it's sunny and no clouds in sight, but Kyogre and Groudon make it sunny or rainy anyday of the week without a hitch, just like when they were competing of dominace in pokemon Emerald, changing back and fort between rain and sun. Besides, some rain from clouds when they already have water in em doesn't seem like much when pokemons actually produce water out of nowhere without suffering from any dehydration themselves. Basically the water either comes magically out of the pokemon themselves, using up the energy they have or they create water out of particles in the air. Either way, even a simple thing such as that is fairly broken.

I'd also like to note that comparing stats and pokedex entries needs something a bit more than just comparision and declaring it illogical. Note that pidgeot is said to be able to fly at mach 2 when in atmosphere, aka pidgeot needs to built up it's speed to be capable of flying at that speed. It's simply impossible in battles where the room is limited to visual range. Pidgeot's built is neither light or small enough to be super agile such as Swellow, which is noted for it's speed stat however is not much of an marathon flyer. If you compare them to real life animals, the resemblance is uncanny. Mewtwo might neither be capable of going at mach 2 speeds, but one must note he's one heck of a powerful psychic capable of levitation and teleportation, whicn in turn gives him superb maneuverability compared to a pidgeot whom needs to use it's wings and body to maneuver. As such, the speed stat is not actual speed of the pokemon nor max speed, but more or less the agility of the pokemon on battlefield. Garchomp can also fly like a jet plane when hunting, but whenever would Garchomp actually fold it's wings and fly in a not-so-roomy battlefield like that? I mean, he still needs to take orders from his trainer lol and on most occasions have visual contact with the adversary. Then we have slaking, who has truant as in you'd think he'd be very very slow... but when slaking wants to do something, he'll do so with suprising agility. Gorillas can be very fast too. I might not be a marathon runner, but there's a chance I might be just a bit more agile than some muscular person, or vice versa.

As further note to this same subject of speed, macho brace for example couldn't really slow a flying pokemon down, for example, as the brace is not nearly heavy enough like Iron ball is. What it does is greatly reduce agility, making movement more difficult with a workout brace like that. Iron ball is just so heavy it makes moving around quickly more taxing and Lagging tail is well, lagging tail.

All I'm asking is to read between the lines. Aka not "pidgeot flies at mach 2" which would imply that pidgeot's fly at mach 2 all the time, but it doesn't reflect on it's actual speed stat, but "Pidgeot can fly at mach 2" or "Pidgeot's fly at mach 2 in the atmosphere", transforming the meaning of it completely.

I have to say Mewtwo cannot really exceed supersonic speeds though lol. But that's just speed, Mewtwo's maneuverable as hell.

I love you.

Seriousy fantastic post.

 

[PowerBomb]

I think this is the balance we were looking for. This is probably the most logical way to go about which moves/actions are feasible in this tournament. We take a look at the move itself, and compare it to the...movedex was it? The same for pokemon and movepools: We look at moves a pokemon can learn, specifically, and from their see how certain attributes of a pokemon (possibly from the Pokedex) and apply them where it is fit.

I like Samo' analysis of certain move-traits combined with the physical traits of the pokemon. This is probably the most feasible way to apply this.

As for the effect on the battle. This is where teleportation should be considered a valid move because logically the move teleport would have in battle uses before randomly teleporting to a select group of buildings...though Sonic's time control powers (where are these from exactly?) apprently trump anything anywhere (Sounding a lot like Samus >.>)

Sonic had Time Control powers in... I think Sonic Adventure Battle 2?

Teleport is supposed to teleport away from danger/battle. Perhaps an alternative could be that Mewtwo teleports away from a dangerous situation?

 

[Samochan]

Guys guys, I've been saying the above like, forever. And I have made posts like that before as well. >_>

And I'm not saying that pokemon physical or other traits should disallow some moves from their movepool or anything of the sort, because that's not the way it should go. The pokemon moves are there to stay, just like shuckle can do protect for various reasons even when being just a moving pebble and why garchomp cannot use fly while it's said to fly at the speed of a jet plane (and then why a tiny starly can apparently carry humans lol).

It was more about putting things into perspective, say garchomp not learning fly =/= being able to fly at the speed of a jet plane. Like how the movepool affects the pokedex entries and most importantly, the interpretation of said entry. I was getting a tad bit tired of things such as "pidgeot is slower than m2 = pidgeot cannot fly at mach 2 = pokedex cannot be used as it's wrong" or something even more illogical like "m2 is faster than pidgeot = m2 can go at over mach 2 speeds cause pidgeot can as well". Starly being capable of carrying a human is both game mechanic and relies on pokemon energy to do so. It's apparent to me pokemons can seemingly do almost everything with this energy of theirs, some more or less. And they too have special traits of their own, which simply cannot be seen from just their statistics or even abilities or movepools. Especially legendaries. But if for example, Darkrai can do Spacial rend move (event), it does not mean he has control over space like Palkia has. The Spacial rend move itself can distort space, but Darkrai cannot control it and thus will only be one ripple in space uncontrolled. Same goes for many other pokes.

But I do hope I've cleared enough of my intention and that we could get a balance between the dex, moves, game mechanics and all that's pokemon canon, hopefully moving past the era where pokedex was simply snuffed outright due to some.. inconsisteties.

I still do advocate anime for canon, since it fleshes out the canon in pokemon very much, along with having the same directors (such as ken sugimori as an art director). It has moved quite far along from when Pikachu could still strike the horn of rhydon and deal massive damage, to rhydon using lightningrod ability on it's horn to nullify pikachu's electricity. From 3rd gen forward, that is. And besides, such inconsisteties are no concern of us, we can just ignore stupid stuff and move on and debate whether an argument would rise over abilities or such.

 

[_clinton]

What? I thought you were all for the segregation of gameplay and story or something and said stats and BST among other stuff were un-canon.

Um, I think you've had my view point confused, I'm not 100% against game play, I'm just not for gameplay that doesn't make "sense" as far as what other things in the canon go (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for example and how I feel Mario is weaker in that on purpose).

In case you've missed my points before here are some things about game play that I'm ok with:
-Ness having a PP/HP stat and comparing him to others in his canon, not outside his canon of course (not even with Lucas for the most part).
-EV training in the main Pokemon gens because it is the best example of proof showing "training" caught between wild in general.
-Stuff like a health bar in general really depending on how its used (Wario for example has been shown to have his reaction abilities with said very large health bar, Samus' E-tanks are being represented by gameplay with how they are used as well in regards to canon)

Jeez, rattata cannot control the weather, rattata can only make it rain for some period of time.

The said move works even in areas where it shouldn't work (sunny/not a cloud in the sky areas), and nothing about Rattata's entry backs the move up.

Pokemons use energy called power points to do their moves they've learned.

Yeah I know what power points are, I mean even the pokedex backs up the point of "power points" with things like "stamina/endurance" in general though. I mean for example please check Pikachu's section where it says the thing can run out of “energy.”

It still doesn't mean that everything they use "power points" for makes sense (especially when the bloody things are just a way to measure a physical limit in the 1st place).

A single pikachu being able to use rain dance doesn't make sense when the dex says that you need a ****ing group of them to just make a storm anyway.

I mean going off the game play only some more there is no difference between Rattata's rain dance and Mewtwo's, am I the only one who finds issues with that?

So there's no wonder why typhlosion, for example, can learn thunderpunch, even when typhlosion is not an electric type pokemon nor should be able to generate electricity from anywhere.

Um...I'm not 100% on that.

It rubs its blazing fur together to cause huge explosions.

Note that pidgeot is said to be able to fly at mach 2 when in atmosphere, aka pidgeot needs to built up it's speed to be capable of flying at that speed.

Pidgeot is a bird of prey, chances are it doesn't take long to build that speed you think it takes, ever look at how birds fly?

Also this:

Its well-developed chest muscles make it strong enough to whip up a gusty windstorm with just a few flaps.

I don't see how it is slow starting at all when the dex/game info on it does a lot to back up the control that it has with regards to making a windstorm in a few flaps.

In fact the thing is as far as "wild pokemon" go, it can't be found in all 4 generations of the games so far, in fact you have to raise one of its earlier forms or get it from someone in order to get credit for it, now how about we look at just what something like that means (as in look at what is catchable usually in the games and what isn't catchable easily).

Basically the water either comes magically out of the pokemon themselves, using up the energy they have or they create water out of particles in the air. Either way, even a simple thing such as that is fairly broken.

That is only adding to why I have an issue with a common as hell field mouse using it in the same effectiveness as a pokemon build for fighting.

As such, the speed stat is not actual speed of the pokemon nor max speed, but more or less the agility of the pokemon on battlefield.

Quick question, how big do you think pokemon battlefields are? Because based off the in game stuff in general, I’d say they are pretty big.

Guess again, the box trick doesn't work in DPPHGSS. Arceus is illegal in competitive play.

So what about giving it vitamins?

I'm sorry since when did you make the precedent for what's right and what's wrong?

Excuse me, but I’ve never said my view is right or wrong. It is just an opinion, an opinion backed with info, but still an opinion. You guys are free to take whatever you want with it.

I can feasibly see Magikarp sweeping because
A: It had help
B: The opponent used non-ev trained pokemon.

So, if outside of pokemon and into another media how would you explain that?
What is +6 attack, +3 speed (swift swim was in effect with a salac berry) mean outside of the pokemon game stats? What does having a stat of 100 attack say OUTSIDE of pokemon? It’s the same thing with other RPGs like EB, Ness having 900+ HP, what does that mean outside of EB? We have no idea, the only thing we can do is compare what they mean in game, and the explanation for Pokemon’s stuff really sucks (level or EV, which one does a better job at showing trained pokemon? I say EV because I’ve found close to level 50 pidgey before along with level 2 ones).

You are actually disallowing pokemon to use their own moves? Talk about grasping at straws.

Oh, so besides moveset please explain where in the canon does it say Rattata can control the weather or Pikachu can swamp a large area (and said large area will be just peachy still after that)?

I’d like to have proof that stuff like this happens in more than just one area.

and?

The dex (as in a source of canon info) is constant with its info, but the game mechs. are not for pokemon.

The games as far as gameplay goes have changed a lot just in something as battles go.
2nd gen-new types, special split, item system, ect.
3rd gen-EV system changed, natures added, ect.
4th gen-physical/special switch, ect.

So, notice how the Dex entries haven’t changed that much? Or am I the only one who has noticed it?

Lol, those are a few when compared to the BS that is the pokedex. Both Flareon and Marcargo are hotter touch then the sun itself.

Flareon’s 1600 F is not hotter than the sun, the 3100 F breath it has isn’t either. (Marcargo I have no comment on ^_^)

And yeah the Pokedex has a lot of BS in it, but a lot of it seems to be done on purpose in making the pokemon world to be as ****ed up as possible (in case you already didn’t know that from how the age of 10 seems to be the time where you’ve hit adulthood). I mean Alakazam has an IQ of 5000, and other things besides the Dex are saying it. It is actually in the game’s script for PMD 1st gen (at around the start of the game in fact) are saying it as well, WTF?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouFailTheIQTest

I personally think it’s best to avoid certain things like “extremely high numbers” when it comes to the pokedex (along with things like “destroys/blocks everything” if you get my point). So Marcargo’s 10000+ body temp is BS for a number of reasons (for starters the dex also says that its body is as hot as lava, which is about 8000 degrees colder than 10000), but some of that other stuff such as it vaporizing water on contact doesn’t sound “that bad.”

There is a noticeable difference in-game.

So where is this proof saying Sonic is faster then?

The pokedex is not a legitimate source but what ever. I'm not budging here.

So if you are going to say that you might want to make sure you watch what part you say it at, because this part here was me quoting stuff that happened in the games, but whatever. Most of Mewtwo’s info is also found outside of the dex anyway, so I guess I could understand how you’d mistake that.

I don't care. Way to draw us away from the main point, but if you want Mewtwo to control all 4 weathers you waste up 4 moveslots.

How was it drawing away from the main point, one of my main points is that things like movesets, stats, and so on have flaws in them.
I mean the idea of pokemon only knowing how to do 4 things makes sense as well, **** how does that work with regards to stuff that isn’t battling but still requires a move?

They are generally around his speed, but I'm adamant that Sonic is faster here. Not moving here either.

So, what do you think takes more effort to do? Think to attack (what Mewtwo pretty much does), or other as in what Sonic does?

Anywho, Celebi is the only pokemon with control over time.

Ah no, Celebi doesn’t have control over time, it just wonders freely through it. Dialga is the one with control over time, to the point where the game makes it sound like he has control over how it flows.

Your whole argument hinges on "Mewtwo's a ****** pokemon thus he can do anything + Pokedex=canon"

Oh I’m sorry, but the thing being overpowered for every game to the point where it is on the same level as things that control time/space but w/o any real reason makes it kind of hard to talk about w/o referencing stuff that happens outside of the games (but is 100% about it anyway, how about that?), the best info we have on Mewtwo comes from comparing him to other Ubers in the games.

Oh and I’m not sure, but it seems like you seem to be giving the idea that I’m 100% ok with the dex (because I’m not in case you’ve missed that in some older posts, I’m just not going to throw it out 100% because of it doing some BS things on purpose). I mean the fact that I can find examples of the dex’s info in the pokemon world as canon is proof on that you shouldn’t just throw it out 100% (and if you are you are denying the game’s canon info).

Canon has as much to do with gameplay too.

So, I’ve noticed you haven’t even been paying attention to the fact that I’ve said that about 20 times now from when you joined the thread (add about 100 times from before you joined or so).

The only time I have issues with gameplay is when the stuff doesn’t make sense for the canon or ****s previous info about the canon (again, like something such as Mario vs. DK).

So please explain why the 4 move limit game mech. in pokemon is ok again and not just a way to make sure that you “the trainer” will use more than just one pokemon for the battle part of it because several of them like Mewtwo happen to more than possible to be a one man army outside of the forced limit (again its comparable to what SSB does with trying to make all of the characters “even” fighters on purpose, but failing badly as well if you check just what is being used).

Also STOP DANCING AROUND THE QUESTION

How was I dancing around the question? I said in some earlier posts stuff like Mewtwo could just swap away Sonic’s emeralds with something like trick (and replace it with an orb that lights Sonic on fire or something else), I even said Sonic is a pure 100% physical fighter it seems so physical defense stuff should help so bulk up to make taking Sonic’s hits easier/swinging, recovery for adding to the tanking, and something like psycho cut for cutting Sonic up into future chilidog meat.

Move tutors and TMs have swapped places a few times throughout the pokemon canon (2nd gen, 3rd gen, and 4th gen all have that), just saying that right now in case it comes up.

 

[ElPanandero]

@Samochan

I was trying to get across what you said about your intention, you're just so much more tactful. Good job,

Oh and I agree on the anime, it does give us a more real time view on how certain things could be applied (Like teleport?)

@PowerBomb

But I don't see how that is the only way it can be applied. In pokemon battles it is for fleeing, but you can use it while walking around, where there is no danger, so danger is not an inherent need for the move. The game restricts it to the pokemon center/fleeing from danger because there isn't a logical way to simply just teleport around a map.

The ability to teleport should not be restricted by situational game mechanics

 

[Samochan]

Ugh clinton, whenever storm = rain or explosion = electricity? >_> Like, rubbing fur together cannot create electricity lol besides some static and whenever would a typlosion rub some fur when trying to punch someone? >_> Blazing fur to create explosions undoubtedly refers to fire. You're just skirting around the very reason pokemon are capable of doing moves in the first place, like you cannot accept that rattata can make it drizzle for a little while. Perhaps the very reason they can make it drizzle is because they can apparently manipulate water particles in the air, as to use things like water gun, surf, etc. They go hand in hand and good deal of pokemons can use water moves alongside rain dance and rattata is no exception. And yet it's far from weather control, far from what Kyogre or Groudon can do.

And btw, pidgeot is still far clumsier than Swellow is. It even has the ability tangled feet to prove it. Pidgeot is bigger built and heavier too. Ever seen a pigeon fly around as gracefully as a swallow? I hardly think going at mach 2 is very conductive when trying to battle an adversary on a limited field.

--

I believe that the very reason teleport doesn't allow you to teleport all over the place is due to Fly being a HM for such transportations. Teleport is something you can find from wild abras in the beginning of the game and would quite transform the neccesity of obtaining badge to be able to fly and the neccesity of carrying along a flier in the first place, alogn with having fly as a HM.

It's a reasonable limit, but quite gameplay mechanic. We know you can teleport out of battles and yet teleporting outside battles only takes you to the last pokemon center. Why would you be able to teleport from battles at all if they were supposed to take you directly to the center and yet they do not? Note, fly doesn't take you away from battles and yet only teleport is restricted. If it can be used very freely as an escape method, I cannot see how it couldn't be used freely otherwise then. You can escape even if you're not in "danger", per se and when your pokemon are healthy.

 

[BSP]

Guys, Where are we with Sonic vs. M2? I'm about to go on a trip, so I won't be here for the next few days. Can you guys give M2 his best possible moveset or something? So i can say something before I leave.

 

[Lovely]

Maybe Psychic, Aura Sphere, Recover, Calm Mind/Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Protect/Substitute/Trick Room, (I'm not really sure about the last moveset). );

 

[PowerBomb]

Why do we care about Teleport anyway? Mewtwo doesn't get it, and even in the RBY remake he doesn't get it.

 

[ElPanandero]

Hmm? Really? When I cam ein it was beign argued, I just assumed he had it. My bad.

Just call it a tie and be done. And If PK won't let it go, give the Sonic the win. I'm pretty over this.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

So, a tie we're agreeing on?

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Here's the next MU.

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE WARRIOR Vs. THE FOX

Ike Vs. Fox

Vs.

Round 6, Match 4.

Overall Results

Wins +6:

,

Wins +5:


Wins +4:

,

Wins +3:



Wins +2:

, , , , , ,

Wins +1:

, :mewtwo:, , , , ,

Neutral:

, , ichu:

Loss -1:

, , , , , ,

Loss -2:

, , ,

Loss -3:

,

Loss -4:

,

Loss -5:



Loss -6:

,

I updated the OP around to make it look better.

 

[ElPanandero]

Is Ike still blessed by the goddess, or was that revoked?

 

[PowerBomb]

I thought Ike's blessing didn't even make him invincible or something?

 

[Lovely]

Yune's blessings should make him strong enough to take down someone that's a god, but not make him invincible.

 

[PKNintendo]

Wow, if this how some of the matches are going to be handled then count me out.

Tie?
We didn't even reach a verdict. I know it was dragging on but it needed to be finished. If these half-finished discussion occurs, fanboys can literally power their characters with undying fanboyism.

(Guess which to pair of boys will reach 7+ wins in the near future...)

Ike? Fortunately I happen to like Ike and I'm **** positive Ike has this hands down so I might just sit this one out.

 

[_clinton]

besides some static

Which was my point actually; it has some way to build “power” like that, it doesn’t have to just use natural fire from the sounds of it. Charizard would be a better example as to why it having it makes no sense.

and whenever would a typlosion rub some fur when trying to punch someone?

Typlosion rubbing its fur in general is how it attacks with its fire in the 1st place from how it sounds actually.

like you cannot accept that rattata can make it drizzle for a little while.

Maybe because things like rattata are common vender trash pokemon, but canon wise live around people in the 1st place. Things like Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza are super powerful and do whatever they can to stay away from humanity.

I know the pokemon world is filled with dangerous creatures, but several of them aren’t any real threat to humanity (and those are close to people in the 1st place).

Perhaps the very reason they can make it drizzle is because they can apparently manipulate water particles in the air, as to use things like water gun, surf, etc.

Surf being used in battle away from a water source makes as much sense as FF7’s Super Nova from Sephy from certain pokemon.

And btw have you ever noticed how a lot of pokemon that learn water moves naturally (as in by level) like Squirtle have their own natural source of water for an attack in the 1st place?

And yet it's far from weather control, far from what Kyogre or Groudon can do.

Oh I’m sorry you think that making it rain magically out of nowhere w/o anything helping to cause it is far from what Kyogre can do, by the way ever look at what the definition for Rain Dance was according to the game:

The user summons a heavy rain that falls for five turns

If you think Rain Dance is a “light rain” or a little drizzle this thing disagrees with you. There are only two things separating the moves from being the same thing, Kyogre does it naturally (as in it is like breathing to it when it comes into a fight) and it lasts for as long as he wants.

However, according to the dex; something like Lugia can make a 40 day storm, so how come its ability isn’t something other than Pressure?
So, how about that then? If you are so on to saying Kyogre is so much more powerful so it having something other than rain dance makes sense. Then how come Rattata is equal to Lugia instead in such a situation? Where in the dex does it back the idea and say Rattata can make a 40 day storm?

Oh and if Lugia isn’t good enough to prove that Rattata having something like rain dance is stupid. Then how about some of those other 600 BST legendaries that hint at control over the weather as well?

And btw, pidgeot is still far clumsier than Swellow is. It even has the ability tangled feet to prove it. Pidgeot is bigger built and heavier too.

So what if it is bigger and heavier, the thing is built to “fight” according to the dex entries. Oh and “tangled feet” only activates when the thing is confused. So, saying it is clumsy really only works when it is “confused” (as in distorted somehow).

Also the translated name of the ability is “Tottering Steps,” which means to walk unsteadily or shakily. Ever watch how birds move anyway when on the ground? The name makes sense just because of that, it has nothing to do with how Pidgeot flies (which it does well).

Ever seen a pigeon fly around as gracefully as a swallow?

WTF? Pidgeot isn’t a pigeon, the only thing that says Pidgeot is a pigeon is part of his “name.” The thing by far resembles a bird of prey by far such as a falcon or eagle. It also certainly doesn’t eat the same things its lower forms eat as well according to the dex. In fact Pidgey is the only one of the three that is “pigeon like” at all as far as behavior goes.

I hardly think going at mach 2 is very conductive when trying to battle an adversary on a limited field.

How is the field limited? Have you seen where most pokemon battles take place in the games? Or are you on the list of thinking they just “take turns” hitting each other like some other users here seem to be?

I believe that the very reason teleport doesn't allow you to teleport all over the place is due to Fly being a HM for such transportations. Teleport is something you can find from wild abras in the beginning of the game and would quite transform the neccesity of obtaining badge to be able to fly and the neccesity of carrying along a flier in the first place, alogn with having fly as a HM.

Well at least we agree on something (teleport being limited on purpose), so how come you aren’t feeling that way with regards to other things as well?

Several moves have clearly been put in the games to allow for customization/countering on other pokemon (stuff like the dark type was put in just as a multi part phase too **** the psychic type because of how overpowered it was at the time), that clearly is a game mech. for how a lot of the moves work especially when you look at what they naturally learn anyway.

Hell the fact that most pokemon also naturally learn more than 4 things is another thing I’d like to bring up, but whatever.

Why do we care about Teleport anyway? Mewtwo doesn't get it, and even in the RBY remake he doesn't get it.

Really stop the view you have on this.

Why is Samus able to use Phazon despite canon wise Phazon has been removed out from the Metroid Universe again?

(Because she did use it once was something you have said in older posts wasn't it? How about that, so have you really failed to get the fact that Mewtwo used teleport once as well?)

Oh and I'm pretty sure the main reason Teleport hasn't been around on M2's moveset sense Gen 2 was because it hasn't been a TM sense Gen 1 (because the move sucks in game) anyway.

(Guess which to pair of boys will reach 7+ wins in the near future...)

Samus isn't a boy

But yeah, that is how a lot of matches have gone on, notice that Ness vs. Peach is a tie somehow, Lucas still has lost to Metaknight because he "somehow" doesn't have anyway of hitting flying foes despite his game being filled with them and all packing ranged weapons, or that Wario's results haven't been changed despite the fact that Diddy Kong backed down out of the matches he had recently (or at least never replied to the last post).

Ike? Fortunately I happen to like Ike and I'm **** positive Ike has this hands down so I might just sit this one out.

Fox has "god killer" on his resume as well actually, and is packing a few more things than a sword.

Sci-Fi beats Dark Ages as far as technology goes.

 

[PKNintendo]

But yeah, that is how a lot of matches have gone on, notice that Ness vs. Peach is a tie somehow, Lucas still has lost to Metaknight because he "somehow" doesn't have anyway of hitting flying foes despite his game being filled with them and all packing ranged weapons, or that Wario's results haven't been changed despite the fact that Diddy Kong backed down out of the matches he had recently (or at least never replied to the last post).

So Ness actually tied with Peach? Did Wii or the other Peach fanboys have something to due with this? As usual _Clinton you failed at your duty of promoting Ness.

Lucas losing the Metaknight is pure lawl though. Wario too.
Pure proof of this topic being a popularity contest

Edit: I just skimmed through some of the matchup. Wow... talk about cheese, and I thought _Clinton was whiny.

That was a pretty poorly done matchup, and I hope to god I'm here next time it appears. I can handles Ness losing to someone like Samus, due to her broken (ie lame and cheesy) speed booster invincibility, but Peach tying with Ness due to... item spamming? Geez, one quick Psi Paralysis and peach can't move for the rest of the match. Match over.

Sure she can parasol camp but to what extent? This can be applied to ANY character. She can camp Mario, Ganondorf, Link (the coveted mewtwo) and many many more. She's forced to playing defense, but she CAN be affect by paralysis since no such status affliction exists in SMRPG.

My favorite one:
Peach vs Ness:

Is Ness immune to sleep? Peach could just use Sleepytime and put him to sleep... then shove him into a pit of lava or something.

Then there's the whole Stopwatch thing...

Whatever Ness does will be blocked by parasol. If Peach does get hit she can heal herself.

Safety Ring prevents all magical damage that isn't Earth or Neutral(magic). It also blocks status effects. I don't know the elements of Ness' attacks.

Unless Ness can prevent Sleep and Time Stop, I can see Peach winning here... not a spectacular win... but still a win.

Ness also can put Peach to sleep and push into lava LAWL.


I was GOING to search up an item that Ness can use for the sleep spell but Ness can just psi shield to block it.

People should look at the spell list, it's pretty good.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/24066

Edit 2: Match ended over tea and crumpets?

Edit 3: Guess Peach can outcamp Ganondorf too with that Parasol.

Edit 4: Peach is the godliest character in her respective game imo.
Her>Mario>>>Geno (overrated as hell glad he isn't here)>>>Mallow>>>>>>The rest>>>>>Bowser.

 

[PowerBomb]

You can always revisit them. Nothing stopping you.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

PKNintendo, calm down. No need to get angry over nothing, you're giving this thread a bad name.

Raizen? agrees to change match-ups already discussed/finished if you provide more evidence or proof of whatever it is you're trying to prove.

 

[BSP]

Maybe Psychic, Aura Sphere, Recover, Calm Mind/Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Protect/Substitute/Trick Room, (I'm not really sure about the last moveset). );

I'm fine with the tie, but just saying. If you used that moveset, Sonic could go super with no reprocussions.

So, for the current MU, is Ike still invincible or not?

 

[ElPanandero]

Well Yuna's blessing gives the same as Ashera's which makes only blessed weapons (and magic, and laguz, i beleive, take that as you will). So with Yuna's blessing's weapons cannot harm Ike. Of course...how does Fox's blaster play into this equation?

 

[PKNintendo]

PKNintendo, calm down. No need to get angry over nothing, you're giving this thread a bad name.

Raizen? agrees to change match-ups already discussed/finished if you provide more evidence or proof of whatever it is you're trying to prove.

I was a bit sporadic sorry...

I'm ready anytime. (Tomorrow)