So I guess ICs are "S Tier" now :) / :( ?

[DeLux]

This is what I was talking about. You disagree with me without testing, why? I've said over and over and over that you can kill snake with my method before 110 and people just blindly disagreed, the whole mashing thing didn't even come in till after the point.

You say "Of course they would die" but just earlier you were saying snake wouldn't even die.

If you look at my entire post:

But you won't kill Snake at 110 with a partial charge in that context :\

The ideal hit time on an fthrow is between 25-29 frames after initiating fthrow. Bthrow is substantially shorter so not really going to consider that one for the sake of charging.
Usmash is out on frame 13

That leaves 12-16 frames of charging. Or 1/4th or 1/5th charge time of the 60 frames to charge.


This is why I advocate fthrow > Uthrow / Usmash or Fthrow > Dthrow / Fsmash. You get longer charge times and guaranteed sweet spotted hits with longer charge times.

But even then they don't die that early unless you charge with the incidental pummel (the pummel will give you 30 frames of additional charge time assuming they don't mash out in that time). Based on my observations, you tend to use a combo of the incidental pummel > throw > smash OR the throw > partial charge smash.

But the draw backs for the former is that it's definitely possible to mash out during the pummel The draw back to the latter is you don't get as much charge time.

I have tested thoroughly. I took into account what I guessed what you were doing. I ended up being right on my guess. :\

Jordan, I'm not out to get you. Normally with people I would just spew whatever crap I know is right and leave at that. Since you're a special and respected case in my mind, I took the diligence of providing all the documentation that I've tested for and tried to map out the different possibilities. I even conceded that without the debated possibility of mashing, I'd use what you use.

You can disagree and not believe that people can mash that fast, but even then I showed documentation of video that it's possible. But for the sake of how much I respect you, I'd say that I tested and researched this specific topic more thoroughly and with higher scrutiny than I normally test things. So please don't call that into question.

I'm sorry, but I stand by my research. I think too highly of you to keep arguing, so if you want to continue, we can take it to PMs if you'd really like.

 

[Roller]

Yo. Real talk is going on in here right now.

Ok. So the past month or so I've started making a concerted effort to improve. I was wondering what each of your methods and approximate timetables for practicing are(/were at your peek).

I'm ESPECIALLY interested in what Vinnie, Hylian, Smoom, Cheese and Lux have to say.

I'd really appreciate your feedback, as I fully intend to integrate anything I'm not already doing into my routine. I've also been trying to pick up one or 2 little matchup specific tricks each week. For instance, the past 2 weeks I've been working a lot on throwing nades away in the middle of cging snake; and as of a convo I had with Lux the other night I've started putting time in doing the same with bananas while cging Diddy.

Any other little tricks like that would be appreciated.




I'm going to improve.

A lot.

EDIT: Please respond if you are willing even if you are not one of those individuals. ESPECIALLY if you have little tricks or an unorthodox way of practicing something that might help.

 

[DeLux]

Combine IB Chaser Reads + your natural inclination to pivot grab things.
This includes running past people and pivot grabbing them using the IB to cover your approach.

You are now broken

 

[Smoom77]

Personally I'm working on improving as time permits. I'm working on LD1 because I think it'll greatly improve my game.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

*Sad that I'm not in Roller's list*

 

[Hylian]

I apologize lux.

Roller, I didn't really have a time table when I practiced I just made sure to practice at least a few times a week. For chaingrabbing I would practice 99 stocks on characters I had trouble chaingrabbing or lost to in tournament and then just practice against random on 3 stocks for a bit.

For desynching I wouldn't practice anything specific, I would just run around and do random things on different stages, and try to figure out how to do creative things with platforms, or try to stay desynched for a long time using utilt/alternating different fast moves, making sure I know max lengths I can control nana at etc etc.

For squall practice I would go under FD over and over and over.

 

[Roller]

oh snap, haven't been doing much squall practice. I probably should do a bit. =o

And you mean going from one ledge to the other on FD?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

*sad lain is not in rollers list*



edit: hylian practices at least once a week.
I practice probably once a day, with a few exceptions.

Hylian is top 3 ICs.

I'm jelly.

 

[Sieguest]

oh snap, haven't been doing much squall practice. I probably should do a bit. =o

And you mean going from one ledge to the other on FD?

And then Roller realized that ICs could scrooge....
DUN! DUN! DUUUUUUUN!!

*sad lain is not in rollers list*

If Lain actually made an appearance more than once every third blue moon....

 

[ch33s3]

Roller, watch players, and I don't mean when they're fighting ICs. Both in person and on video. I don't care what level they are, just watch for habits. Try and pick up on when people get grabbed and when they don't. See what could get someone grabbed, then learn how to grab it. Look for places where a frame trap would get you a grab or damage. Just keep watching. Take notes if that helps. I used to keep a notebook on all of NY/NJ. You'll notice situations that come up repeatedly, so when you see them, you can handle them in a match.

Also, learn ISSDI. Even just a little ISSDI changes things dramatically sometimes.

 

[Roller]

*sad lain is not in rollers list*

If Lain actually made an appearance more than once every third blue moon....

I mean... I live like 5 minutes from him. I see him all the time. I didn't see a point in asking him on here. lol

Roller, watch players, and I don't mean when they're fighting ICs. Both in person and on video. I don't care what level they are, just watch for habits. Try and pick up on when people get grabbed and when they don't. See what could get someone grabbed, then learn how to grab it. Look for places where a frame trap would get you a grab or damage. Just keep watching. Take notes if that helps. I used to keep a notebook on all of NY/NJ. You'll notice situations that come up repeatedly, so when you see them, you can handle them in a match.

Also, learn ISSDI. Even just a little ISSDI changes things dramatically sometimes.

Solid advice, and the ISSDI is exactly the type of little trick stuff that I'm talking about. Thanks!

 

[Vinnie]

Keep up with the metagame, be creative. Have near-perfect tech skill. Just work on basic things that you think you need to improve on, and learn things you haven't learned yet. There isn't exactly a training regiment >.> just try to learn the CG timing for everyone... lol.

I'm happy because I can be lazy because like, I pretty much go vs //// (and some s), but yeah I do practice a lot and I guess it shows because of how rarely I drop CGs in tournament.

Also, watch videos. I watch videos of other people all the time >_> I'm subscribed to like every smash channel, and I've watched like every video ever, which gives me an extremely good understanding of the game.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Keep up with the metagame, be creative. Have near-perfect tech skill. Just work on basic things that you think you need to improve on, and learn things you haven't learned yet. There isn't exactly a training regiment >.> just try to learn the CG timing for everyone... lol.

I'm happy because I can be lazy because like, I pretty much go vs //// (and some s), but yeah I do practice a lot and I guess it shows because of how rarely I drop CGs in tournament.

Also, watch videos. I watch videos of other people all the time >_> I'm subscribed to like every smash channel, and I've watched like every video ever, which gives me an extremely good understanding of the game.

This advice and Cheese's advice is the best. Cheese, you need to do work yo, I know you can do better.

Vinnie, I want you to message me on Skype more! I wanna get better too and I'd ask you a question like everyday.

Also, Esam's ICs are legit as well.

 

[DeLux]

Roller (and probably most ICs not named Hylian),

In my opinion, one of the glaring weaknesses of your game is under utilization of frame traps. If you combined practicing in training mode between a level 8 on "attack" and seeing how to safely zone your desync to grab setup options when your opponent is trying to overwhelm you, and a level 8 on "run" and learning how to trap opponents with setups will help you get familiar with using options outside of the context of practicing them in the vacuum of training mode and requiring you to get your *** handed to you repeatedly in friendlies. Different styles of desyncs have different zoning/startup/cooldown properties, so you should understand all of them.

I say this because I watch IC players chase people around and try to grab their landings. So when they get punished for chasing too hard without a desynced option to cover them, I cringe. All of us aren't 9B; we can't get away with doing nothing and walking around and having opponents get punished by some sort of magical foresight.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Lux, you always seem to throw out the word frame trap so loosely imo, can you at least list out a fair amount of them so I can practice? Im pretty sure I asked you in skype but I only remember you saying the obvious Ice Block Chaser. (Which I'm also bad at btw)

 

[DeLux]

How is it loosely? Desyncing essentially gives us a source of all the frame advantage we want in the world. If that frame advantage is over +6, the opponent is effectively trapped into committing on options because of the threat of the grab. So if we read the trap correctly, we net a grab or a reset of positive tactical situations.

I use it so often because we're probably the only character that can play an entire match out of positive frame advantage if we wanted to.


Uairing someone? The weak hit box becomes a frame trap. They either get hit by the weak hit box and then it's a guaranteed footstool at certain percents, or they air dodge and get hit by a strong hit box of Uair because of positive frame advantage.

IB Chaser? Frame Trap for obvious reasons

Blizzard Chaser? Frame trap for obvious reasons

Belay Desync on ledge? Frame trap if you exercise certain options

Nana Smash Cancelling? Frame trap for obvious reasons

Baiting Desynced Laggy options with Popo? Nana is there with positive advantage if your opponent commits to something dumb

Our frame trap game is so versatile because we have both aerial and grounded ones that on certain situations set up for grab > death.

 

[Hylian]

What lux says is truth.

You guys should also work or using hitlag desynchs more effectively, and desynching straight from squall, I just rarely see climbers use these in a lot of situations they could. It's all very situational though so it's up to you to be creative with them .

Edit: On that note, I was thinking today about writing a guide for playing Ice climbers while desynched. There is a ton of information on how to desynch, and direct follow-ups but there is a lot you can do past that. I doubt I would write anything that isn't already known, just elaborate in depth on things I've learned that I don't see others utilize very often. Still not sure though.

My girlfriend got 2 free plane tickets to anywhere in the US from her work, so we are going to Apex which means I'll be practicing for it as my last national. Thought thinking about my play and writing down a lot of stuff would help. Opinions?

 

[Roller]

I would love to hear what you have to say. Can't hurt.

And I'll be at Apex as well. Sounds like we'll have quite the showing of ICs.

 

[DeLux]

Frozen Notepad Part 2

 

[Smoom77]

you ruined my life, Lux.

 

[Hylian]

Frozen Notepad Part 2

LOL oh god whatever happened to that. This is probably a bad idea.

 

[Exceladon City]

Fluttershy says I need more love

I command thee Ice Climber Nation, LOVE ME

I'd love you but I doubt you'd be a big fan of that kind of love. L

Roller (and probably most ICs not named Hylian),

In my opinion, one of the glaring weaknesses of your game is under utilization of frame traps. If you combined practicing in training mode between a level 8 on "attack" and seeing how to safely zone your desync to grab setup options when your opponent is trying to overwhelm you, and a level 8 on "run" and learning how to trap opponents with setups will help you get familiar with using options outside of the context of practicing them in the vacuum of training mode and requiring you to get your *** handed to you repeatedly in friendlies. Different styles of desyncs have different zoning/startup/cooldown properties, so you should understand all of them.

I say this because I watch IC players chase people around and try to grab their landings. So when they get punished for chasing too hard without a desynced option to cover them, I cringe. All of us aren't 9B; we can't get away with doing nothing and walking around and having opponents get punished by some sort of magical foresight.

I've heard this before...Apparently, I suck at utilizing frametraps...
I blow with ICs anyways. I get grabs on Hylian's Falco and drop all of them.

 

[Hylian]

True story(about dropping grabs)^^^^ I beat excel last tournament with falco on FD in pools o.o.

 

[Roller]

Oh no. How does that even happen? =o

 

[Exceladon City]

I'm the worst.

 

[Hylian]

I'm also just reeeaaallllyyyy good against ICs lol.

 

[Exceladon City]

I'm also just reeeaaallllyyyy good against ICs lol.

In my defense, I hadn't played those 2 in a few months AND I'm horrible against Falco.

 

[DarkFlameX]

Esam thinks im top 5 IC, behind vinnie, lain/esam, and then me, and then smoom, I think smoom is a bit better than me, he's had more notable wins

 

[ch33s3]

Esam thinks im top 5 IC, behind vinnie, lain/esam, and then me, and then smoom, I think smoom is a bit better than me, he's had more notable wins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar9XFyP_4cY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrWMsDZ831Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVe31liaCBg&feature=related

K.

 

[DarkFlameX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar9XFyP_4cY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrWMsDZ831Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVe31liaCBg&feature=related

K.

dude, that was my first national tournament, that was way back when before I got into the competitive scene, Ive gotten so much better since. play me again if you think you're still better haha

 

[ch33s3]

dude, that was my first national tournament, that was way back when before I got into the competitive scene, Ive gotten so much better since. play me again if you think you're still better haha

K. How much of your money do I get to take would you like to play for? $100+ plz.

 

[DarkFlameX]

K. How much of your money do I get to take would you like to play for? $100+ plz.

lmao, Ill settle for $5, my profits are dwindling atm, more than likely I wont be going to apex, but hopefully once things get settled, Ill come out to a regional or something. cant wait for this rematch =)

 

[ch33s3]

I appreciate the donation.

 

[DeLux]

Maybe we can get some tournament results to substantiate your claim?

 

[DarkFlameX]

Maybe we can get some tournament results to substantiate your claim?

like I said, it wasnt my claim, it was esam's, I'll have to step on out more, but yeah, we'll see, and also @ cheese, we'll see about that too

 

[DeLux]

But if you posted it, you must have some confidence to its truth.

Why not just post your recent tourney results and settle the dispute to some level?

 

[DarkFlameX]

But if you posted it, you must have some confidence to its truth.

Why not just post your recent tourney results and settle the dispute to some level?

I just have confidence that I can be a potential contender to being a top IC, Im not making any claims since I dont have MUCH evidence to back it up, but Ill definitely post my results everytime I enter OoS tournaments.

 

[DeLux]

You still haven't posted any results

Not saying you're good or bad, but it would help if you posted results either way :\

 

[DarkFlameX]

my most recent tournaments
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313790&highlight=the+gold+mine+3
and
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311870&highlight=gold+mine

 

[DeLux]

Have you only been to two tournaments since Pound?