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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

What is Sonic's worst match up?


  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .

da K.I.D.

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lol you dumb. you just want an easy way to beat sonics cus they proly whoop you normally, and in responce to your obligatory "I never have problems fighting sonic" post i just say that in that case you shouldnt care anyway, cus you dont need the secret
 
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MasterHavik
Sorry wannbe pokemon master. You gotta learn things the hard way. Anyways, I have been lots of Ness while trying to unlock Sonic. But here is my question. What is the best way around good DK with Sonic, since my area actually has one:D.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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ASC. Your running bait game is more important than your spin bait game cause DK is fast enough to simply tilt you away instead of committing to a strong attack. Empty shorthops are nice too. Bair is definitely your friend in this matchup. Moreso than others cause you can land a lot of them for damage racking. ASC and bair his **** till you're ready for an Fsmash. Normally it's nice to keep Bair somewhat for knockouts but DK's survivability means you REALLY have to up your DPS.
 

ShadowLink84

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This douchebaggery should stop.
This is matchup discussion then the tools of each character must be laid out in full.

Seriously, quit the bull **** sonic mains. You can't whine about people not knowing about Sonic and then refuse to discuss issues concerning the character.

You hinder both characters progress in terms of development.
SMH @ sonic mains.
S
M
H
 

Kinzer

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How can you say something like this? This is counterproductive to competitive brawl as a whole! What if everyone did this are hoarded away their secrets, never to enter the metagame, and never to be learned? Brawl's metagame would advance at a snail's pace. You'd be in a a literal Dark Age. It's your obligation to share your findings to the rest of the brawl community! For shame! This is the way games die.
I think you fell for some kind of bait.

lol you dumb. you just want an easy way to beat sonics cus they proly whoop you normally, and in responce to your obligatory "I never have problems fighting sonic" post i just say that in that case you shouldnt care anyway, cus you dont need the secret
I think you're not aware of said bait.

This douchebaggery should stop.
This is matchup discussion then the tools of each character must be laid out in full.

Seriously, quit the bull **** sonic mains. You can't whine about people not knowing about Sonic and then refuse to discuss issues concerning the character.

You hinder both characters progress in terms of development.
SMH @ sonic mains.
S
M
H
You need to come back to the true SBR, and not fall for the same bait that KID does.

MarKO where you @, you have something you need to clear up now.

Oh, and as for that G&W write-up, let me get to that now while I'm here, if nobody makes a new post by the time I'm finished check back on this one, it will have it editted.
 

da K.I.D.

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Kinzer, its not trollbait, me and marko have discussed this method that hes talking about, hes not just pulling ish out of his behind. you ar the one that i believe is unaware.
 

Kinzer

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MR GAME AND WATCH



Introduction: Definitely the least dimensional character you will see in this fighting game. Puns aside or otherwise, Mr. Game & Watch is just as much of a fighter as the S/A tiers in the 3.0 version, and for a very good reason. Agreed upon by anybody you'll come across to be one of if not Sonic's most difficult opponent he'll ever come across.

Behaviour: His character his shallow and so is his playstyle; You'll be clashing it out with a wall of junk, from turtles to flags and all that stuff. Normally bad players would be punished for this kind of gameplay but the problem is that it reaches so far and sticks out for a deceivingly long time that it's hard if not impossible to get around some of it. Bad players will have an easy time getting around, and pros alike will be a nuisance to get around with.

Commonly Used Moves: You'll be seeing a lot of Mr. G&W (some a bit more suggestive than others if you have the "right" mind for it), it's best you inform yourself now that if you ever see this matchup yourself you'll be somewhat prepared. Nothing can get you as far as practice though, but for now let this be something to look out for.

Back Air - The Turtle - Probably the most used aerial you'll see throughout the whole match, this thing has above average range, lasts for a long time, somehow how a shockwave hitbox, racks up damage nicely, and can be very annoying to work around.

Neutral Air - The Fishbowl - His best self-defense aerial, this thing covers his entire hurtbox save for his underbelly, has a decent enough array of range, is quick, and racks up damage neatly as well.

Down Air - The Keyblade - Is Mr. Game & Watch above you? In that case, expect a lot of this raining down on you. Being able to weave left and right with it and cover his 6 o'clock, fast but not really compared to some other things he has, and decent range, it will be hard- however possible, to avoid and/or counterattack it, you would just not rather have to deal with it at all.

Up Air - The Blowhorn is it? - This thing can reach FAR, as in you're not even anywhere near close to being above him and it will still work. The good thing is that at that range, it doesn't do anything other than harmlessly keep you in the air for a bit longer than you would think or like, the bad side is that being propelled into the air can not only be annoying when you want to get back on the ground, but it also refreshes Mr. Game & Watch's other moves and if you're really inattentive, he will hit you with some kind of powerful attack on your landing when you were being reckless trying to get back to the ground ASAP.

Forward Air - The Box... brick... what exactly is it anyway? - The least problematic/seen aerial in his arsenal of crap. This thing packs some nice knockback, and has a hitbox that sticks out for a little bit... that's about it, it's lacking in every other field you can imagine.

Forward Smash - The Match - To start off, this attack has a lot of power on the first hitbox, after that comes a weaker but still just as gruesome 2nd hitbox, has some ending lag (still have to be quick about this) and even less spotable start-up.

Down Smash - The Hammers - Much like his forward smash, this attack has about the same start-up lag, less ending lag, covers both of his sides, and if you aren't killed off the top by the sweetspot, the sourspot will still send you flying off to the side.

Up Smash - The Scuba-Helmet - Mr. Game & Watch's most power attack by far, but also his riskiest, just try not to be near the head and you shouldn't need to unnecessarily die. Easier said than done though.

Neutral A - Gas (The PG way to say it anyway...) - Clocking at 4 frames (1 frame = 1/60th of a second FYI), his fastest attack, but probably his most pathetic attack. Only reason for any G&W player to use this attack is to reset you to neutral position out of an unteched Down-Throw, get you in a hold for a little bit, and refresh his other moves. If you're ever caught in a neutral position with him proceed to do your own Jab combo as he has nothing to match yours which is 3 frames other than getting you in hitstun/lag/read.

Forward Tilt - The Chair - Nothing really special, just a surprise kill move at later percents if you weren't already killed before. If it doesn't kill you, it has alright knockback.

Down Tilt - The Sewer Lid - This stinks, this move is fast, spammable, and you'll find it to be another brickwall that you'll have to find some way to work around. This also works as an edgeguard.

Up Tilt - The "1" Flag - Nothing really impressive about this attack either, this is just here so that G&W's don't have to hit you with up smash, and has less ending lag than his chair.

Neutral Special - Chef - This attack will rarely be seen or used outside edgeguarding, the projectiles can be avoided, and the hitbox the Pan has can easily be outmatches with any of your ranged ground attacks.

Down Special - Bucket - This special would be used to capture certain projectiles against certain characters and use them against them, however since the only projectile Sonic has is his Spring and that can't be Bucketed, you would think this thing is no use against Sonic, right? Wrong, If you hit G&W out of the stage and think he would die under normal circumstances, he can just use this thing to stop ALL MOMENTUM. This allows him to live longer than the programmers of this game probably intended, because without this Mr. Game & Watch is the third lightest character in this game, surpassing only Jigglypuff and Squirtle.

Side Special - Judgment - You won't see this often if ever, varying from player to player, reason being is because for Mr. Game & Watch to use this, is like taking a risk. This move can either allow the greatest (and most random/lucky while you're at it) comeback in the history of whatever, or it can reassure his demise. Judgments differ from 1s to 9s, with the 1 being a backfiring Judgment, and the 9s being OHKOs (One-Hit K.O.s), number inbetween differ in power and use. Most noticeably 8s will freeze you, sevens would drop items if you're playing with items on but in a standard tourney ruleset is almost no better than him getting a 1. I forget what the other numbers do, but rest assured it's nothing to really worry about it. Outside the variable results, this attack has a lot of ending lag.

Up Special - Fireman - Apparently the firemen also have 2nd/3rd/4th jobs/shifts, because recovering isn't it's only use, but it just happens to be what it's good for mainly. After the move is executed, Mr. Game & Watch pulls out a parachute to slow his fall, and he can still act and do anything he normally could do except another Fireman attack until he lands or gets attacked on the way down. The trampoline also has some wind properties much like his U-Air, and if you weren't hit by the windbox, you were either not hit by it at all or you got hit by the part that hurts you, knocks you somewhere relatively close to G&W, and if that didn't happen then Game & Watch just has another follow-up/mix-up/"OH @#$%" panic button. Mr. Game & Watch also happens to become his own attack after he jumps, so it's really hard to attack him during, you'll have to rely on hitting him before and/or after he's done this move.

Throws - There's nothing really special to mention about any of his throws excluding his Down Throw, which you should be prepared to avoid. The best way not to get caught up in this mess is to not get grabbed, unfortunately chances are you will eventually get grabbed and chances are The opponent will throw you down. There's no way to tell which way he threw because the animation for all of Mr. Game & Watches throws is the same, the only variable is where it goes, and his Down Throw will put you right next to him in a prat-fall. Mr. Game & Watch can act immediately after his animation finished, and depending on what you (can) do and how you react (and I guess what he tried to predict), a couple of things can happen. Assuming you don't tech and do anything you will be vulnerable to any of his attacks (though don't discard this as useless, you will want as many options as you can from this point on), assuming you don't tech but have a reaction action and time, you can roll forward and back, or you can do a get-up attack (or even normally get up, this is faster than any of the others but the safety can still fluctuate). Mr. Game & Watch can still try and predict you correctly and punish you for any of these actions, however it's up to you to make sure you don't pick the wrong course of action and punish him for messing up. Now assuming you do tech, you will be granted much more time to react and defend yourself, but you're not out of the woods yet. You can tech in place, back, or forward, usually doing this will allow you a bigger reward for the same/bigger risk, but again sometimes one option might not be the best, it's still in your hands to make the right decision and react accordingly.

How to Win: With this whole shopping list of stuff, how do you get around this? If you're playing Sonic, you really cannot do a lot of things and if some things do/did work then it was a mistake on the opponents' part. You're at the mercy of the other player no thanks to the people who created this game and missed this part here. Granted you are still spared a "counterpick or lose" solution with some saving graces, but at top level play this matchup becomes just horrible to deal with.

You will need to play this matchup so many times in order to condition yourself to know what works and what doesn't, and always be at the very top of your game if you want to even have a chance to win. That means you will also have to understand every aspect of both characters' gameplay, and if you know this then that means you will have to bust out of crazy tricks with Sonic, because if super computers where playing this matchup there is no way in Hell Game & Watch should lose. Am I discouraging you from playing this matchup yourself?

That's a yes and no answer:

Yes because eventually (and) with enough practice, you will and could prevail.

No because if you're not confident and/or you're not at that skill level yet your chances of winning are statistically very, VERY low.

The best way to win this matchup is to play it many times over and over and heavily analyze it, because if you give up midway there is/was no point to it all, but if you have just started I cannot make the decision for you on whether you should dedicate a lot of time and effort to do this or not. Some great tips I can tell you know that would make things easier is that your key points should be controlling Sonic's speed, getting in your opponents' head, and take advantage of anything and everything you can and try to minimize the damage, for what that's worth.

Recommended Stages: Personal preference, though I'm leaning more towards platform stages, not Battlefield though but I mean something like Smashville.

Matchup Summary: On paper (stupid pun), this matchup should be in no way winnable for Sonic with the time/metagame this guide was made/written, however since no one person/thing but super computers can play perfectly there is still a chance at top/near perfect level gameplay, and for this reason alone the matchup is clocked at 65:35 Mr. Game & Watches favor.
 

Sonicstud

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not g&w D=
How to Win: learn to 2nd main snake ._. lol jk
but good match up guide. I cant stand a good g&w >_<
 

Kinzer

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Learning to 2nd Snake makes a logical strategy though, since I heard the MU is 65:35 Snake's favor.

However this IS a Sonic guide, and while I'm not going to lie about how stupid hard the MU is, I will try to help anybody that wants to actually go through with playing Sonic.

...Being a masochist is so fun.
 

Camalange

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I agree with ROB and GaW being 65:35.

I might do an edit of my old ROB write up since the boards re-discussed it not too long ago.

:093:
 

Kinzer

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Committed?

I can understand maybe seeing them from a mile away, but they're stupid fast and powerful.

It's like I just wanna rip mah hair out If I still had any leftover from my haircut.

And while I disagree with Camal saying R.O.B. is 65:35, he has probably played more R.O.B.s than I will ever in my smash career, so I won't argue.
 

Camalange

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And while I disagree with Camal saying R.O.B. is 65:35, he has probably played more R.O.B.s than I will ever in my smash career, so I won't argue.
It's trufax.

You guys just gotta take my word on this ._. I am the ROB guru after all :/

:093:
 

LordoftheMorning

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lol you dumb. you just want an easy way to beat sonics cus they proly whoop you normally, and in responce to your obligatory "I never have problems fighting sonic" post i just say that in that case you shouldnt care anyway, cus you dont need the secret
Sorry wannbe pokemon master. You gotta learn things the hard way.
I care about this because of the principle. There is still no sufficient reason not to reveal this whatever-it-is. Both of your posts are blatant ad hominem fallacies and they have no validity at all. The metagame must be advanced. I'm sure you'd understand if 3 MK (or any character, really) mains knew about an infinite sonic had on them but they wouldn't disclose it to anyone.

And to "learning things the hard way", that is complete nonsense. I suppose you would prefer it if the only ATs you could use were the ones you yourself discovered? That would mean only a very small fraction of the competitive smash scene would be able to use ATs at all. That's not the way we do things. We learn a secret, and we share it with the rest of the community. That's always been the case, and that's one of the major reasons behind the competitive success of Melee (and hopefully Brawl). I'm 99% sure that you didn't "do your learning the hard way" and discover all the ATs you know without seeing them performed in a video or in person or reading about them on a forums.
 

Kinzer

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Really, I'm curious too, if anybody should be disclosed to a secret, it should at least be the people most affected by it.

...That is to say, there is actually something going on.

I highly doubt that though, unless something really wacky is found, most of Brawl is set in stone.
 
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I care about this because of the principle. There is still no sufficient reason not to reveal this whatever-it-is. Both of your posts are blatant ad hominem fallacies and they have no validity at all. The metagame must be advanced. I'm sure you'd understand if 3 MK (or any character, really) mains knew about an infinite sonic had on them but they wouldn't disclose it to anyone.

And to "learning things the hard way", that is complete nonsense. I suppose you would prefer it if the only ATs you could use were the ones you yourself discovered? That would mean only a very small fraction of the competitive smash scene would be able to use ATs at all. That's not the way we do things. We learn a secret, and we share it with the rest of the community. That's always been the case, and that's one of the major reasons behind the competitive success of Melee (and hopefully Brawl). I'm 99% sure that you didn't "do your learning the hard way" and discover all the ATs you know without seeing them performed in a video or in person or reading about them on a forums.
I was just joking man relax. I learn my crap by watching videos. You're real talk my friend.
 

Camalange

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I care about this because of the principle. There is still no sufficient reason not to reveal this whatever-it-is. Both of your posts are blatant ad hominem fallacies and they have no validity at all. The metagame must be advanced. I'm sure you'd understand if 3 MK (or any character, really) mains knew about an infinite sonic had on them but they wouldn't disclose it to anyone.

And to "learning things the hard way", that is complete nonsense. I suppose you would prefer it if the only ATs you could use were the ones you yourself discovered? That would mean only a very small fraction of the competitive smash scene would be able to use ATs at all. That's not the way we do things. We learn a secret, and we share it with the rest of the community. That's always been the case, and that's one of the major reasons behind the competitive success of Melee (and hopefully Brawl). I'm 99% sure that you didn't "do your learning the hard way" and discover all the ATs you know without seeing them performed in a video or in person or reading about them on a forums.
Get future status.

:093:
 

TwinkleToes

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I care about this because of the principle. There is still no sufficient reason not to reveal this whatever-it-is. Both of your posts are blatant ad hominem fallacies and they have no validity at all. The metagame must be advanced. I'm sure you'd understand if 3 MK (or any character, really) mains knew about an infinite sonic had on them but they wouldn't disclose it to anyone.

And to "learning things the hard way", that is complete nonsense. I suppose you would prefer it if the only ATs you could use were the ones you yourself discovered? That would mean only a very small fraction of the competitive smash scene would be able to use ATs at all. That's not the way we do things. We learn a secret, and we share it with the rest of the community. That's always been the case, and that's one of the major reasons behind the competitive success of Melee (and hopefully Brawl). I'm 99% sure that you didn't "do your learning the hard way" and discover all the ATs you know without seeing them performed in a video or in person or reading about them on a forums.
KASR doesn't actually know anything when it comes to Sonic; so, it's not like he was going to tell you anything anyways. As for the rest of us, we shut our ***** mouths when it comes to Sonic's weaknesses in other match ups because this **** is hard enough as it is :/

I think you're taking this way too seriously anyways, man. Even as a point of principle I don't think keeping a few opinions/observations quiet is all that egregious.
 

Kinzer

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Too bad apparently only "3 of us" even know what this mess is about, so even if anybody else wanted to tell, we can't because we don't know.
 
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KASR doesn't actually know anything when it comes to Sonic; so, it's not like he was going to tell you anything anyways. As for the rest of us, we shut our ***** mouths when it comes to Sonic's weaknesses in other match ups because this **** is hard enough as it is :/

I think you're taking this way too seriously anyways, man. Even as a point of principle I don't think keeping a few opinions/observations quiet is all that egregious.
He's right actually. I just playing Kirby and Ness atm. But I wanna learn sonic.
 

TwinkleToes

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It's hardly a mess. Just a little spill. It'll turn into a mess if LordoftheMorning doesn't know what's good for him.

GRRRRRR!
 

infomon

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Sonics release all info about Sonic to the public because we're not scrubs, and so stupid ppl don't have matchup inexp johns (like about tier lists and whatnot). There are deffo pros in this game who keep everything to themselves, cuz they're a bunch of nervous scrubs. Information wants to be free, yo. :)
 

Kinzer

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Somehow I knew Infzy would be coming up in here.

However that Down-Throw tech(nique) should've been kept a secret da****! :mad:

I'm telling you, if there is anything you want or need to know about Sonic, you'll be able to find it, anybody who feels that they are being left out are just getting trolled.
 

Kinzer

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Sweet.

I'll take care of Marth next, I mean it's good that we get characters we haven't even done, but take a look at GS' current Marth write-up and you tell me that's better than not having one at all. @_@
 

Camalange

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infomon

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I thought it was frame 5? 4 seems too fast.
But furthermore, Sonic's Fair is his aerial that ends the earliest, and is thus his best option for momentum-cancelling :) fyi
 

Chis

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So after the whole 'ZSS match up convo' in their boards, you want it changed to 45:55 right?
 

Camalange

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So after the whole 'ZSS match up convo' in their boards, you want it changed to 45:55 right?
Yes, even though for whatever reason Zero put 60:40 in the OP, all of the Sonics and most of the ZSS's agreed to 45:55 so I say it should be put as that.

I'm going to try and get a MM with Snakeee this weekend, so if that works out, I'd like to do a write up for ZSS.

:093:
 

da K.I.D.

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you shouldnt be qualified to do a write up from just one MM, it should be from like 2 hours of straight playing with the matchup, cus otherwise i would be qualified to do the write up on ZSS just cus I had a match with the best ZSS, check the sig.

but I still feel like theres tons I dont know about the matchup
 

Camalange

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you shouldnt be qualified to do a write up from just one MM, it should be from like 2 hours of straight playing with the matchup
I've played Snakeee before, we've done a lot of friendlies, just not a lot of Sonic vs ZSS for odd reasons *lolganonvsmk* or *lolnonannerdiddyvszelda* ^_^

He's a pretty chill dude, so I'm sure if we were to MM there would be plenty of friendlies afterword. We were supposed to last tourney, but right when we started, Singles began and we had to stop -_-'

I already know a pretty good deal about the MU, it's just that someone claimed Snakeee believed it to be a 60:40 MU, so I want to see if our MM would change his opinion, since there would be money on the line...obviously.


Also your sig didn't show >_>

:093:
 
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