Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Terios the Hedgehog]

So you are around today. <3 Kaylo.

 

[Kinzer]

Behaviour:

Zelda has a good punishing game with Usmash, Fsmash, reversed Naryu's love, Dtilt, lighting kicks and Uair. She can easily obtain quick leads from the last two moves. At 50 Plenty of her attacks have lingering hit boxes making side stepping unhelpful. or so she gains true combos from her dtilt which she chain chain (LOLWUT?!) into a number of different things. Like Game and Watch she somewhat fits the description of a glass cannon character. She has lots of powerful attacks and can kill really earily but is hindered with her light weight. However her terrible recovery, cool down and other issues weigh her down even further.

Felt like bolding the part where you made a typo, I think you meant to say "can?"

Also is there no fear of getting water spiked by Zelda on Delfino which is why you suggested it?

 

[Chis]

1. Chain, not chain chain >_>
2. That's why I said I need help on the stages, thoses stages come from the Zelda discussion ages ago

Thanks for the help KayLo :D

 

[Kinzer]

1. Chain, not chain chain >_>
2. That's why I said I need help on the stages, those stages come from the Zelda discussion ages ago

Thanks for the help KayLo :D

1. Wut? I don't get it.

2. Ah, so the stage CP for Zelda is a bit outdated? Well, I don't know why I'm being extra nitpicky about Delfino, it's not like you're going to be in the water all the time, and if it comes down to it you can easily avoid it.

...Then again being predictable when you're very close to the blastline, like on the walk-offs might be easier said than done... you know how depressing it is to lose a stock like even before 100% (granted with characters who have kill moves out the wazoo it might be the norm but still... :/)? But the thing is the stage can also work into your favor/you can somewhat easily avoid bad situations...

I suppsoe what I'm trying to say is that you/we should look around for some BETTER CPs than Delfino, not to say that you would be wrong, but something just tells me there are other stages that would provide you with more options and work less into Zelda's favor.

...Have you considered Frigate Orpheon? Think about it.

You know I'd feel terribly silly only covering the fact about how awful Zelda's recovery is and how it becomes even more glaringly obvious to exploit with the stage design/hazard/s, but am I wrong to say that it isn't true?

 

[da K.I.D.]

the best stage to take advantage of zeldas awful recovery is lylat.

she can almost never sweet spot the constantly moving ledge, and is thus reduced to always attempting to land on the stage. which is easily punishable.

thats what ive gathered at least.

 

[Kinzer]

What about if Lylat is banned?

I just love to have something to fall back on if option A doesn't work... sort of like how other people besides me have CPs for Sonic, or vice versa (the ladder being uncommon).

So far RC as an extreme CP seems to be the best option, but being my boring self and wanting to go with what's comfortable, I'll probably go FD.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im pretty sure any stage with moving edges or without snap able ledges, makes it very hard for zelda to play effectively

 

[~TBS~]

i guess its safe to say dont get kicked...

@Chis
i'd say you just read her like a book with that guide. nice stuff.

@Kinzer
RC? wut?

@KID
i dont see how Sonic has an advantage over Zelda. 50:50 looks about right. Sonic can punish the crap outta Zelda, but she can kill, plus the long lasting hitboxes(coughUsmashcough). And on that last statement, do you mean her recovery, or her game overall on those types of stages?

 

[Kinzer]

Short for Rainbow Cruise.

 

[da K.I.D.]

her recovery specifically i was talking about.

also, i really think sonic has the advantage. yes zelda can kill, but even she needs to get damage up before she can do that, and i dont know how she would go about doing that, since just about every time she side bs, you can side b through it and get a free spindash combo. and than if sonic just decides to play keep away, what can zelda really do about it?

this is a serious question. cus it would seem to me like sonic runs circles around zelda, and with her one long range move rendered effectively useless, actually in my eyes, LESS than useless if you get to hit her every time she does it, she one of the few characters than really, REALLY cant catch sonic....

id like some input on this

 

[Camalange]

Zelda can pretty much just space smashes and tilts and all of a sudden you're dead. Her attacks do a lot of damage and good Zeldas also can auto sweetspot aerials OoS when that option is available (which is more often than you think) Bad spindashes will get killed by sweetspot OoS.


Her SideB isn't all that effective. It's annoying when you're recovering, and can force you to approach still...and eat more smashes. It's hitbox is also extremely, decievingly disjointed so don't fall for it...I usually get trapped like a moron while I'm recovering from spring or with no jumps, lol.

They like to try and go for kills with it when you're near the blastzone...and it will kill.


I say it's about even, slight favor towards Sonic 55:45. She can still wreck if you don't know watsup.

 

[Kinzer]

her recovery specifically i was talking about.

also, i really think sonic has the advantage. yes zelda can kill, but even she needs to get damage up before she can do that, and i dont know how she would go about doing that, since just about every time she side bs, you can side b through it and get a free spindash combo. and than if sonic just decides to play keep away, what can zelda really do about it?

this is a serious question. cus it would seem to me like sonic runs circles around zelda, and with her one long range move rendered effectively useless, actually in my eyes, LESS than useless if you get to hit her every time she does it, she one of the few characters than really, REALLY cant catch sonic....

id like some input on this

If it matters, I agree with you.

However I don't say anything because 5 points is almost nothing, and the MU is already even at best, anybody who says otherwise is just about more delusional than Sonic fanboys... if that's even possible. I would be forced to partake in discussion if however the advantage was big enough to say 6:4 Sonic's favor, but I question that.

 

[Camalange]

Zelda can kill and she makes it hard for Sonic to do that, so it's no way 6:4

I think it's still Sonics favor because one he gets past her "wall"...G@ME. He just can wreck once he gets inside since she has such slow options, but she still has good ways to keep Sonic at bay and kill in absurd ways.

Usmash is ********.

 

[Kinzer]

I need to do the MU again. As in I want a rematch with a good Zelda now that I'm not out of practice.

KID is right about how Din's is a joke of a projectile, it doesn't force you to approach even if you have the lead, and can easily be avoided if not countered thanks to Sonic's speed.

Up Smash can be punished with FTilt/DTilt if you're not caught in it... IF though, I know exactly what you're all talking about when you're caught in that attack, in or out of your shield Not every Zelda is also going to spam smash attacks and hoe you're going to fall into it, that only works if you don't have control over Sonic, and we're not assuming anything but high-level play here.

FSmash I believe can be punished with a DA OoS, once the attack is done anyway. Not trying to get a point across, I'm just saying. What with Sonic's speed and how if we can punish MKs attacks we should be more than equipped for Zelda.

I would go as far to say that her aerials are hard to land on Sonic, but being able to avoid them is easier said than done, and if you really commit to an attack on hit her shield, well pray they miss and you have enough time to not get hit by it. :/ Sonic may be fast in the air and no question on the ground, but his aerial acceleration is rather poor... granted not Luigi/D3/MK poor but it's not exactly stellar for him... again having to make you commit to one way which can lead to being predictable... no good.

Just a couple of tidbits, I really don't want to get in-depth since it appears that has already been taken care of.

 

[Camalange]

I need to do the MU again. As in I want a rematch with a good Zelda now that I'm not out of practice.

KID is right about how Din's is a joke of a projectile, it doesn't force you to approach even if you have the lead, and can easily be avoided if not countered thanks to Sonic's speed.

On the ground yes, in the air I find it much harder, or I might just be dumb due to my lack of experience and just playing good Zeldas yesterday xD

Not every Zelda is also going to spam smash attacks and hoe you're going to fall into it, that only works if you don't have control over Sonic, and we're not assuming anything but high-level play here.

lolsorryhadto

I would go as far to say that her aerials are hard to land on Sonic, but being able to avoid them is easier said than done, and if you really commit to an attack on hit her shield, well pray they miss and you have enough time to not get hit by it. :/ Sonic may be fast in the air and no question on the ground, but his aerial acceleration is rather poor... granted not Luigi/D3/MK poor but it's not exactly stellar for him... again having to make you commit to one way which can lead to being predictable... no good.

Nair is pretty good, and smart Zeldas will land sweetspot Bair/Fairs more than you'd think...and it's annoying xD This kinda goes into predictability, but I find with it's odd start up, it's good for punishing airdodges and you dieing...and like I said it's a good OoS option for her.

 

[Kinzer]

Curses, I forgot the P in "hope!" DX

 

[Camalange]

It's hopeless.

/hope

 

[Chis]

It's 50:50 imo. She can easily gain a lead with her kind of punishing and killing power. And Zelda with a good lead isn't very fun to fight. Sonic is not hard to hit in the air lol. Yes DA OoS sheild punishes Fsmash, if it doesn't poke through.

 

[Kinzer]

Well... that's it.

I finally did a couple of testing, and here's what I found.

Tippered UTilt kills at a lower % than untippered UTilt... how about that?

On Final Destination, I found some of the numbers to be... rather surprising. The UTilt hitbox from Marth's back has more power than the frontal hitbox, I believe the back part of the hitbox was in the high 120s... that would be either normal, considerably high, or low, depending on what exactly Marth hits you with... like if you got hit by a tippered FSmash at the edge of the stage... that's going to be quite a low number... however if nothing else will kill you (highly unlikely), then this seems to be the norm... or whatever... Anyway you guys were right, depending on your criteria, it does kill... however here's the fun part:

You have to be within Sonic's grab range to get hit by this sad excuse for a ground move. Granted it probably makes a better anti-air, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was meant just for that, but you know, it's kind of lulzy. Marth has to have his back turned to you if he wants to get any of those low numbers, so for him it would be less optimal to counter with if you were to approach for whatever reason... you wouldn't even have to worry about this killing you if he is forced to approach you. UTilt is also easily punished on reaction, assuming you weren't thwatted away by it.

Get ***** Sonic boards, I am STILL a biased mofuggah, and you don't want me to get anymore angry than I am now...

I would've just for the Hell of it found the DB kill % numbers, but I can't, even if I wanted... and here's why:

Somebody took (accidentally or intentionally, I have no idea) my component cables. I only hope Hi-Def cables can still work on a standard T.V., but if they don't then I'm stuck with a Wii that is going to be collecting dust until I go to more tourneys on Monday since I would only have those cables that work.

You know what, I think it's fine, if any of you care enough to change my opinion on it not killing, you can get the numbers yourself, the burden of proof is not on me. Until then if it bothers you so GD much that I'm wrong in some places, you'll do work, and you'll prove me wrong by writting perhaps a lengthy and detailed description (perhaps more correct in your eyes... maybe mine too if it is that good) of both UTilt and DB, and I will be nice enough to C&P, or Chis if he so wishes to can cut out the middleman (me) and put it up there himself... your choice, I don't care where we go from here... I may be sounding extremely arrogant but you try being in a jolly mood after you find out you can't get your Wii to work and how you'd explain to your parents that you swore you did not leave your junk there and couldn't bring it back home with you because it is in somebody else's possession right now.

 

[Camalange]

Tippered UTilt kills at a lower % than untippered UTilt... how about that?

well ofc, that's how Marth's whole moveset works xD (yes, i got the joke)

You have to be within Sonic's grab range to get hit by this sad excuse for a ground move. Granted it probably makes a better anti-air, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was meant just for that, but you know, it's kind of lulzy.

Oh Kinzer...Sorry to say, but you don't seem to know all that much about Marth gameplay. Utilt is used EXACTLY as an anti-air move, and used to catch you on a platform. It's not meant to be used like a smash attack or a primary KO move..it's meant to catch you when you're in a bad situation.

I guess I can understand what you're trying to say, but the fact of the matter is Marth's know how to land and can kill with Utilt if needed. It's not exactly the move of choice, but it works well if they're platform camping.

I know you admitted to it being able to kill...but you're wrong again about it being easy to react to and punish >_<

Get ***** Sonic boards, I am STILL a biased mofuggah, and you don't want me to get anymore angry than I am now...

As a human being, I'm sorry about your situation Kinz, I'm sure that can be frustrating.

Also saying this as a human being, you're silly to think that DB is not considered a KO move. Hell, not even silly, foolish.

I don't need numbers to prove things all the **** time, and this is the main reason why I hate MU discussions. PEOPLE KNOW that you can die from a DB at higher percents (around 140 give or take) I don't need further testing, frame data, or statistics to prove it to me otherwise because it happens all the time. I don't need to hear no named players from other boards tell me what my character can or can not do at the highest level of play against characters when I'm out there doing it myself. (i'm not just saying this in reference to myself and our boards...from what I can tell when I go to tournaments and I hear about how much some people hate character boards...I can guarantee that most people feel this way)

There's certain things that you just have to accept and can't always be explained by data. It's like when SL tries to tell me that jab>fsmash is a terrible option for Sonic to kill.

Sure, statistically, it's lousy and extremely easy to punish. Doesn't mean people don't fall for it.

I'm sure there's data out there that proves DB kills, since it's a great move and Marth boards sure do love their frame data and theory craft...but when you have everyone and their mother telling you that you made a misteak, just accept it dude. Now you're just acting dumb.

Even Malcolm, one of, if not our best Sonic player, who plays top players all the time and almost never even posts on our character board comes in and tells you you're wrong? Just deal with it dude, it's not a personal attack...it's simply you being arrogant.

 

[Kinzer]

Rawr, I can't think straight right now!!!!

Gah... perhaps I look at the face value too much, maybe Marth has some stuff...

*Sigh* Yeah, it probably will come down to me just C&Ping somebody else's write-up... and I don't see why mine still can't be used so long as we override those two little nitpicks... but otherwise, nobody else has been complaining about anything but it, and if I can't come up with the right thing, somebody else will have to cover for me and at the very least I will have to agree to disagree... which I believe i have already done/ am doing right now.

You know I'm trying my best with this right? I guess sometimes it just isn't enough...

I'm sorry guys, I really am. I hate myself/ my life right now.

/emo

 

[Camalange]

and I don't see why mine still can't be used so long as we override those two little nitpicks... but otherwise, nobody else has been complaining about anything but it, and if I can't come up with the right thing, somebody else will have to cover for me and at the very least I will have to agree to disagree... which I believe i have already done/ am doing right now.

You can't expect for your one write-up to cover everything and anything! It's a group effort bro, hence why we're a community. If someone has something wrong, we correct them. We can still use your write-up as a base and give you majority of the credit, but if there are things blatantly wrong, you gotta learn just to accept it and fix it.

Like I said, it's a community effort. We're not trying to bash your write-up, you just got really defensive when we tried to correct you a couple things.

You know I'm trying my best with this right? I guess sometimes it just isn't enough...

prepare for more reiteration ;]

we don't EXPECT your write up to be perfect, clean cut, and ready to go. The majority of what we do here is a community effort. We understand that what you have isn't going to be 100% correct because we all have different views on MUs based on our experiences...but when you're going to get so defensive on denying facts then...idk man >_<

I'm sorry guys, I really am. I hate myself/ my life right now.

/emo

I assumed something else must've been on your mind for you to be acting this way. You're usually much more chillax.

We're here for you dude, I know most of us don't know you personally, but post in the SBR, the Xat, or even PM someone if you're having life problems but don't know who to turn to irl...we can offer as much help as possible :/ life can get confusing sometimes, but you gotta know when to not let it bottle up inside and let it out in strange ways on...video game forums @_@

If you can't talk to someone irl, just come in contact with me or some other Sonics. We're like a family.



From now on, let's leave this kind of stuff to profile messages please, let's not spam this topic ;D

EDIT: Chis, can we please remove the poll now?? You know I can't stand the sight of having Marth appear as our worst MU >_>

 

[Kinzer]

But we're Sonic boards, we never do anything on-topic!

...Seriously though, thank you for the kind words and slapping me back into shape Camal, I appreciate you taking this time.

With that said, yes Camalange is right, you're all free to take the guide, edit some things on your own, and post your stuff... I honestly don't care about credit, but more about helping the community now and whoever might see this in the future.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Thats why you never have and never will see me do an entire write up on a character.

Unless its like Ike or lucario or MAYBE ddd

because for some reason I play Ikes ALLLLL the time, and I play a TON of lucarios not to mention Ive played him seriously myself since launch.

But other than Ike, and Lucario, I dont even claim to have the mass of knowledge on a character to do an entire write up on their moves, tendancies, and setups, and what to do against them.

I dont say that i know that stuff because I dont, and honestly its dumb to even pretend you do by writing a matchup writeup. thats why all i do, is throw out the information that my experiences tell me, correct misconceptions, and listen.

 

[Kinzer]

Eww, that shouldn't be the last post on what could be a good topic.

Can we perhaps jumpstart this thread again on a new character?

We ought to go over Peach.

Of course I won't say much if anything, I have little to no experience, and Peach is too awkward of a character to even study/analyze/whatever from afar, you either know what she is capable of or you don't.

With that said, there are perhaps only two Peach mains in Vegas, one is inactive AFAIK, and the other one doesn't compete in-tourneys.

 

[mars16]

Sonic should have had a shadow costume

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

You should be infracted for that.

And so should I for this. lol

 

[Tenki]

Sonic should have had a shadow costume

He does.

There's this pretty cool thing that people have where they can like, play Sonic as Shadow, or Falcon as Protoman and Space Ghost.

Cool story.

Search for Brawl texture hacks on this site and google.

 

[Kinzer]

I was hoping this thread got bumped because somebody wanted to talk about Peach or any other character I could offer my 2cents on.

I was disappointed.

I am also very sad to see Chis has left without a word (AFAIK).

I guess this project is on hold for now?

 

[Camalange]

new topic : how shadow should've been in brawl



seems pretty good imo. thanks mars16.

 

[Kinzer]

Shadow should've died after Sonic Adventure II.

Somewhat on-topic to Camal's post, I actually tried Shadow in LOL+, he feels very awkward and either I need to better readjust to his playstyle or he needs works.

...Yeah, that's my problem, I can't inspite anybody to help me discuss anything, I have to wait until somebody else starts something... that's why I wanted to talk about Peach or something else related to Sonic's actual factual MUs.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Shadow shoulda been in. Just sayin'

*Is the only Shadow fan here*

 

[BSP]

i think knuckles could've gotten in too.

Back on topic, what was being discussed?

 

[Kinzer]

Back on topic, what was being discussed?

Nothing, there was no discussion prior to Sonic characters.

 

[~TBS~]

can we please go over the annoying matches? like when to be defensive, offensive, or just hit and run...something? I need to know when i can do what vs who...I read the write-ups, but i still need some help.

 

[Chis]

I am also very sad to see Chis has left without a word (AFAIK).

Chis' internet got *****. Chis will be back soon.

K, let's talk about Peach again. Er, still 40:60?

Dair is still the gay, same goes for her jabs and aerials. If you avoid fair and Up smash, she wont be killing you for a while. Also never, ever use the homing attack against a Peach who knows the match up.

 

[Trent]

Also never, ever use the homing attack against a Peach who knows the match up.

Probably shouldn't be using Homing Attack against anyone in the first place, 'less you're feeling daring. I used to fight a Peach on a regular basis, and one thing that was fun and effective to do was catch her turnips in mid air, mix between throwing them back at her and glide tossing it up to seem like you're throwing it at her, then immediately grab her when she shields.

 

[Tesh]

Why would she shield? In my limited experience, Peach can avoid any damage from normal turnips with lots of her attacks. That is how it always happens for me though.

That is my main problem in this matchup. I can't seem to do better than trade unless its my super stale bair. Difficult to grab her out of her landings (isn't dair AC a 7 frame advantage on shields?). Her airdodge is the worst ever. I can't bait defensive actions and I can't seem to beat the offensive ones consistently.

Advice?

 

[Kinzer]

Glad to see your back Chis.

Also, it's never a good idea to HA, but Peach makes it especially impossible to ever, ever, ever land a HA unless the controller is disconnected.

I don't want to say anymore, not experienced in this MU. nobody active in Vegas plays Peach.

 

[vidwatcher4ever]

yeah, i'm not very up-to-date on the current peach meta-game.