Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Chis]

Why is spring > Uair being factored into this discussion anyways?

 

[Napilopez]

Sonic's speed can easily put him under Ike if Ike DIs. I've never seen how long Sonic's 2nd uair is, and it sounds long (I'd like a visaul of it [like a snapshot and like so a general. Hit box area]). Still if SA comes into play Ike will usually be FALLING so if he SA the 2nd hit of uair he will fall down to hit Sonic if his uair is that long.

Well don't forget Sonic can space his Uair as well by fastfalling it as he goes up. Either way it doesn't sound like a major issue for Ike to worry about Uair. At worst it seems less effective against him.



this is the Uair:

http://i40.tinypic.com/xn51ki.png

Frankly, its larger than it looks

I don't know if you saw it in my other post, but would you like to play? Since you're in NJ our connection would likely be smooth.

 

[MarKO X]

Ahh, I just remembered something... the off-stage homing attack. It rocks pretty hard, provided they don't see it coming.

Side taunt must also be done in this match, period.

On a serious note, I watched the KID vs. Kirk battles, and I noticed a few things:
- You can spring out of jabbies if they try to cancel it to something else, and you even get a free 4% damage. (lol)
- Ike's SideB is a serious business killer.
- Delfino is not a good stage to play against an Ike IMO.
- The battle is practically even. It's like, for every weakness, the opponent has in strength.

 

[Ussi]

Well I would like to play, as I don't completey hate wifi, but I'm at my
College and I commute so I'm not home to play. Sorry

I think every situation that isn't rare to happen should be discussed.

Now when Sonic recovers what is his normal course of action?

Uair is long but isn't Sonic's hurtbox being extended?

 

[ROOOOY!]

No, about the hurtbox thing. I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember that Sonic's legs don't even HAVE a hurtbox during the second hit of up air, it's from his body upwards methinks.

Sonic has multiple ways of recovering, but someone else can explain that because I'm off for eats.

Everyone knows my take on this match-up...

*sips tea*

 

[~TBS~]

http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=kid+vs+kirk&search_type=&aq=f

^^This. it was requested by KID that this was to be put up. He said he sucks at gimping and once you master gimping ike, the match is decidedly in sonics favor.
60-40
"These are the words of KID"

 

[MarKO X]

There's spindash (sideB) with the hop, used for horizontal cover. Ike could punish that with a well placed ftilt or eruption. Shielding it will only allow Sonic to spin by.

There's spincharge (downB) without the hop, can also be used for horizontal cover, but I think that it would be used if you're a little above the stage rather than at level with it because it lacks the hop, and it give the opportunity for the ASC, which is potential a 52% damage getter (although no one does it perfectly, so if you manage to get hit it, you'll take about 7 to 18% damage). Ike's punishment is practically the same.

There's the spring, which is used pretty obviously from under the stage, but can be (and should be) used elsewhere and anywhere provided the right mindgame is made. I saw Kirk punish a predictable spring with an ftilt, that made me go OOOOOOO!

And then, there's Homing Attack. Use sparingly, maybe after a number of spindashes/spincharges, because that whole spinning mindgame stuff to spark a reaction.

Edit: also, if done correctly, the spins (not HA) can be cancelled into a shield upon landing, which could fool an Ike.

 

[ROOOOY!]

You're forgetting Spinshot, Marko =]

I pretty much feel that this is one of Sonic's only legitimate advantages, 60:40. Sonic just has too many ways to play it safe against Ike.

Jab hurts Sonic up close though. Can you just Spring out of the combo though?

I haven't read anything on Ike discussion yet :3

 

[Napilopez]

As ROOOOY said, its not not extended. Actually, I think it might be shrunk. You can hit from under the lip of FD with it, for example, although I'm not sure about the relationship between hitboxes hurtboxes and the ability to hit through objects.

I think the thing about recovery is that there isn't a normal course of action, and it also varies depending on the Sonic main. Most of the mains here, however, seem to use SideB first, and then their double jump, unless they are too low. Sonic has neato momentum cancelling by either using SideB or DownB after an fair when being hit.

I personally usually choose to recover form below, because Uair makes that so safe. Also, Sonic can footstool jump after his UpB if you are edgehogging him, so make sure to refresh invincy frames.

EDIT: And no prob about not being able to play Ussi =P

Homing attack will be used if Sonic is too far and low to recover with spring alone.

 

[MarKO X]

You're forgetting Spinshot, Marko =]

I pretty much feel that this is one of Sonic's only legitimate advantages, 60:40. Sonic just has too many ways to play it safe against Ike.

Jab hurts Sonic up close though. Can you just Spring out of the combo though?

I haven't read anything on Ike discussion yet :3

Ah, yes, the SpinShot... might be the safest since you can airdodge an aerial.

You can rarely combo out of a straight jab jab jab combo, but you can usually spring out of jab cancels, like if Ike tries to go jab jab grab or something like that.

 

[Ussi]

Judging by Sonic's recovery options, eruption looks like it can punish Most of Sonic's recoveries. With mind games of course. Ike is normally better of flat out killing Sonic. An off stage fair is possible to.

Jab combo can't be spring out of.

Jab > jab so far is a true combo when done perfectly.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Yeah, Ike's better at killing onstage, no question.

Sonic ***** Ike's recovery more then most people do though with da Spring.

 

[MarKO X]

Eruption is definitely a pain for a silly Sonic (as is fair when done right), but most Sonic's here aren't silly. It's still something to look out for, definitely.

 

[Chis]

No way it is 60:40 though.

I main and dang it. And where's Kinzer?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Maining both characters has little to do with it.

I second Jigglypuff, yet I don't know **** about the Sonic v Jigglypuff match-up. You may know the characters, but not how they interact. I'm not saying that's specifically the case here, mind.

I've had a few games practice with an OFFLINE Ike, when dumb **** like running into fsmashes isn't happening.

 

[Chis]

1. I know his strengths and weakens better though

2. The jiggly thing is just you

3. People never run into my forward smashes

4. I didn't factor wifi into it

5. It's not 60:40

 

[Ussi]

Maining both characters has little to do with it.

He speaks truth. But normally those who main both characters tend to understand what each character can do though. Not knowing the Sonic vs Jiggs match is your fault ROOOY.


Now about the Spring gimp. Its partly avoidable on stages such as Battlefield and Smashville due to Ike being able to use aether to SLIDE under the ledge. Doing so has the stage protect Ike from above till he slides. Just a tid bit on the spring gimp.

Also when timing issues come into play (ie Sonic using spring too early or Ike uses aether earlier, etc) Ike's aether's SA will eat the spring.

When it comes to stage CPs, Rainbow Ride isn't a bad Ike stage in general. Ike's air game is good. How does Sonic do on Japes? That stage kills Ike better than MK.

 

[Chis]

Japes is one of Sonic's worst stages. He can't kill vertically, he has little room to move and can be camped.

 

[Ussi]

Alright, then as Sonic you don't want to CP Japes in case Ike has a 2ndary that likes Japes.

Frigate is an obvious choice since it doesn't affect Sonic's recovery one bit but Ike is like gone on the right side of stage 1.

Pirate Ship is a big stage to ban against Ike.

What are Sonic's really good stages?

 

[Chis]

IIRC, Corneria, Green Greens and Green hill zone.

 

[MarKO X]

Final Destination is excellent for Sonic. I like Delfino with Sonic, but for some reason, I don't like it against Ike.

 

[Kinzer]

Yoshi's Island (Barlw) is another good stage because Sonic can use HA to bounce on the wall and even wall-jump to recovery. Then again Sonic and Ike might go neutral on that stage.

 

[Ussi]

Delfino 1/2 the time gets rid of gimping possibilities against Ike and there is water, which is a big + for Ike.

FD is a good choice since Ike has no platforms and no slant on the stage to protect him from spring gimps.

Corneria is a good Ike stage as the slants make aether harder to punish (although Sonic is fast) And the fin wall gives Ike a wall "infinite" to 100% to be finished with a utilt.

Can't say anything about green greens and Green Hill Zone as they are banned in my state.

Yoshi's Island, that stupid GHOST fricken messed up my aether like every match.

 

[Napilopez]

Sonic doesn't have any uber good stages for him, except maybe green greens. But neither does he have any truly bad stages for him either.

 

[Kinzer]

Except Japes.

No matter how hard you try to talk me into saying Sonic has good things going for him on Japes, I will @#$%^ you up until you get tired of trying to move an immovable (sp?) object.

Good thing I won't have to worry about that stage when I fight an Ike (though I'll still ban it just to be sure the opponent won't CP characters and gay me)

 

[Ussi]

Sonic will only have to be wary about Pirate Ship and Delphino against Ike as CP. Always stage strike BF. CP Frigate or FD. The rest of stages are more or less even.

 

[Kinzer]

They don't give me the option to stage strike in Vegas, only 1 ban.

Edit: I've been thinking.

Other than Ike getting a boost from the water, why would Sonic not like Pirate Ship as a counterpick?

For one thing, Sonic is fast (obvious fact is obvious), so he can like easily dodge the bombing part, and the huge stage allows Sonic to live just as long as Ike could.

I can only see this as Ike getting a slight boost from this stage (because no Sonic is going to try to hit you in the water unless they are ********)

 

[Ussi]

Ike gains the ability to NOT GET GIMPED...... Sonic lacks a spike as well... so yea, Ike is living forever no matter what. Ike still flat out kills you and spikes if you some how land in the water



EDIT: Why the heck are all you Sonic mains invading the Pikachu XAT >_>

 

[Kinzer]

Thank you for the idea Ussi, watch me go raid it now.

But seriously I guess the fact that Ike doesn't have to worry about a stat that usually ruins him is bad enough not to go on it.

 

[Tenki]

Judging by Sonic's recovery options, eruption looks like it can punish Most of Sonic's recoveries.

Not really. Well, at least don't expect to land a charged Eruption with any form of edgeguarding, lol.


from a side-B hop, we can still double jump out of it (+height; +distance), THEN spring. It isn't uncommon (or is it..? :l) to use spring out of edge range due to people attempting to grab gimp, or airdodge punish from there.

But I may concede that, if you're moving, you should be able to camp spring landings pretty easily.


edit:

btw, Brinstar D-throw anyone? <3

 

[Kinzer]

I don't think we want to go to Brinstar with the insanely close blastzones and the laval saving Ike from gimps.

Also I has been banned, I am out of control man!

 

[MalcolmM]

corneria isnt legal in ur state either ussi. neither is pirate ship.

 

[Ussi]

I've played on both stages though <_< I used PS in a LA tourney xD too much **** I even beat the #2 of LA there. I think corneria maybe is aloud in PA don't know.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Those stages are legal in Texas. Good enough for me.

 

[Kixx]

Just Curious?

Just curious, at what point is sonic at a major disavantage against DK? I saw the chart had it as red for him. I have had no problems with DK players its quite simple really... DK , which i do enjoy , is good don't get me wrong, but its so easy to just bounce around him and sneak hits in. DK gives off obvious signs of attacks and if you just wait u can make him miss and just tag him. Only thing i would say is dont get under him off the edge thats bouts it. Let him grab the edge...barely run off spring board spike him and off he goes o.o

 

[Tenki]

B-air spacing, quick moves, high knockback/kill power (this + quick moves = no good :/ ), can punish things like SH F-air with spotdodge > D-smash.

And pretty decent grab range/grab game.

It'll probably be nice to revisit it one day, when people know how to fight Sonic and Sonics meet more DK's in tourneys.

 

[MalcolmM]

malcolm says its a red for sonic because the risk vs reward for DK is insanely in his favor. rumor is he risks getting grabbed and taking 11% at most....or killing u @ 80 (exaggeration if we r talking about dsmash) with a smash attack. and he doesnt have to spotdodge ur fair to punish it...shield drop is sufficient since his arms are stupid long he will catch u while ur retreating. i've also heard hes an insanely heavy character with a very difficult to gimp recovery. he also doesnt leave himself open very often, his aerial game is way above decent, his upair punishes Spindashes into his shield of any kind, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he has a brutally strong neutral b with super armor. but what does malcolm know...he never plays anyone good anyway.

edit: ike is 50:50

 

[MarKO X]

In terms of DK, Sonics in NYC must deal with Bum... dum dum dummmmmm.

 

[Kinzer]

I would like this board to revisit the DK matchup, as I was not here at the time when they did it... and 6:4 is just a ******** matchup ratio seeing as how DK for example is a huge target and thundering down on his recovery with Dair from the top will always beat him out. I would call it for DK's slight advantage at worst seeing as how if not getting gimped he will be lively for a very long time and he can kill you much earlier.

 

[Ussi]

I would like this board to revisit the DK matchup, as I was not here at the time when they did it... and 6:4 is just a ******** matchup ratio seeing as how DK for example is a huge target and thundering down on his recovery with Dair from the top will always beat him out. I would call it for DK's slight advantage at worst seeing as how if not getting gimped he will be lively for a very long time and he can kill you much earlier.

DK is like faster than Ike, heavier than Ike, has the sakurai combo, best ground range ever, WoP bair.... the list goes on...