Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Tesh]

Pit planking is just like Olimar spamming that stupid pivot grab vs Sonic imo. A pain in the ***, but doable.

 

[Ghostbone]

Come on guys, if we really need to ban a tactic that Peach can beat, we shouldn't be playing this game.

Planking isn't broken unless MK is doing it.


Also Supreme Dirt, if we're going to ban Yoshi's Island Brawl, I'd like Halberd to go with it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And Lylat Cruise, ****ing hate that stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And I could finally ban Smashville? :D

 

[WindMajor]

Only if I get to ban every last one of you guys from Smashboards in return.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You only have to infract me once more, Twinkie

EDIT: Nevermind, didn't realize some of my points had expired.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No.

YI:B's randomness is isolated, Pictochat's isn't. This is a very important distinction to make and I've explained this a billion times before.

Thank you for injecting some sanity into the knee-jerk random crowd. Unfortunately, this is where it kinda ends...

1. Incorrect. I would support the banning of any character with broken planking. Differentiating "planking" from a character's standard strategies is a 100% arbitrary distinction to make. The fact that Meta Knight is very powerful in other respects just adds icing to the cake.

2. It is not a necessary evil in the slightest. Tournaments with no ledge-grab limits were going fine before the Rich Brown incident and even afterwards.

Need I remind you of Coney vs. M2K?

Look at it this way, imagine if Falco's laser camping was so strong that once he got the lead no character could get past his lasers, would you impose a laser limit or ban Falco?

You don't see the practical difference between the two things? But never mind, here's my main point:

Nobody would want to play Brawl because they would have to learn to deal with a completely beatable, gay tactic in some match-ups? Are you saying that you would quit? If so, BPC you are a scrub.

I might not quit. I play MK; I can beat it. But I guarantee you that when forced with such a dull, repetitive strategy with such a ridiculously skewed risk/reward, most people will simply lose interest. Brawl, as a competitive game, will die. See, I don't care just how beatable you think G&W's planking is–the falco main who suddenly becomes useless doesn't agree. And he's gonna be pissed. The Metaknight whose main you had to ban is not happy. I think at that point, yeah, sure, it would be scrubby, but so is quitting brawl for any other reason akin to it. And the other reasons aren't half as irritating and torturous. It essentially boils down to "Brawl is no longer a game I am interested in spending my time playing", which would become a valid complaint very, very fast if more people acted like Will or M2K at tournaments like that.

 

[C.J.]

Rumble Falls follows the same path every time and the hazards are unmoving (similar to RC). What criteria is it banned under? I think the speedups are random, but is that enough to warrant the ban? Walkoff camping isn't really that strong since you're forced to move with the stage. The stage also places a big emphasis on vertical mobility, but, that's not foreign to the skill sets we want to test.

I don't want it legal (unless all controllers have all buttons mapped to grab), but just curious why it's banned.

 

[ぱみゅ]

because people don't like it

IMO, speedups are just too much for certain characters that have to worry on recover ONLY.
That part with the stairs and the one with vertically-moving platforms that disappears are particulary bad, because those certain characters end up too close to their enemies, and they either fight them or move on the stage....
Thinking of it, by definition and criteria, might not be that bad....

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Also Supreme Dirt, if we're going to ban Yoshi's Island Brawl, I'd like Halberd to go with it.

That's different, though. Halberd's hazards are announced.

Just ftr, for me auto-ban criteria for stages, regarding hazards and moving parts, would be...

1. The event, hazard, or moving part is both unannounced and random. Examples of this would be the transformations on the Pokemon Stadiums being announced on the screen in the background several seconds before the transformation occurs, being very much "announced", or, adversely, the support ghosts on Yoshi's Island giving no warning whatsoever before appearing.
2. Potential to save or gimp a player, where a "gimp" refers to any loss of stock due to the hazard where had it not appeared the player would have survived, and a "save" refers to enabling a player to recover where had the hazard or event not occurred the player would have lost their stock. Examples of things meeting these criteria are the laser, claw, and cannon on Halberd or the platforms on Frigate Orpheon.

 

[Life]

The main issue with RF IIRC is the chokepoint about a third of the way through the level.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh wow.

CP quality

legalize RF now.

 

[BSP]

I'm kinda with Supreme Dirt on how we've got a bit of a double standard going with YI:B legal and Picto banned.

Picto's randomness is a little bit worse imo because you don't know where or when it's coming, but it's usually just some more % at the worst. YI:B interfering means a stock was just saved or taken (platform), or a stock was taken because of the shy guys extending hitboxes. Picto isn't that far from YI IMO.

 

[ぱみゅ]

In that case, you either legalize or ban both (and Green Greens?).

 

[Life]

The difference is that Picto screws with you anywhere while Yoshi's only has the effect in a couple specific spots. Meh.

As for Green Greens, having that stage legal would make me want to take up Pit. Not saying he's necessarily OP, but he's got to be hard to catch here. The stage deserves another shot I think, but IDK how it will hold up after a while. And there's the exploding wall glitch, which I still don't know how it works.

 

[T-block]

No.

YI:B's randomness is isolated, Pictochat's isn't. This is a very important distinction to make and I've explained this a billion times before.

Actually, last time you tried to explain the distinction I called you out and you just stopped responding IIRC =)

 

[ぱみゅ]

For Pictochat to screw your game you need to be at a certain point at a certain time.
Posibilities of stuff happening should be WAAAAAAAY less than they actually are....
Stuff like that rarely ever happens to me (and I play the stage a lot), so if I had to make a choice, I'd say you can learn it and avoid most situations....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Actually, last time you tried to explain the distinction I called you out and you just stopped responding IIRC =)

Yeah I remember that but I didn't remember what your exact counter argument was, could you bring it up again?

For Pictochat to screw your game you need to be at a certain point at a certain time.
Posibilities of stuff happening should be WAAAAAAAY less than they actually are....
Stuff like that rarely ever happens to me (and I play the stage a lot), so if I had to make a choice, I'd say you can learn it and avoid most situations....

You have no idea how many matches Ghostbone and I have had on the stage where we get hit into a wall or hazard just as it appears. Or, way more commonly, a wall appearing screws with our momentum and forces us back into neutral positions.

You can't adapt to that kind-of stuff, it happens all the ****ing time.

 

[infiniteV115]

@ Dirt
Wait, you want Halberd banned? Please don't say yes.
Or were you trying to see that both those criteria must apply to a stage's hazards and/or moving parts in order for it to be banned?

I've said this once, but I'll say it again.

It's better to tear apart stages from all angles in a group collaboration, instead of having one guy do it all alone.

Well, that kinda happened in your case anyway, seeing as how you surveyed every character board. Or did you only ask those boards how their character performed on Norfair?

And anyway my point was that since I don't think it's likely to get a large group of people to collaborate on evaluating a stage such as Norfair, we need more people like you whose work may result in the nay-sayers re-thinking their positions. Of course if more people were willing to collaborate then that'd be awesome.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Actually, the only legit complain is the wall appearance disturbance (except the line, that's a different story). But, iirc, resetting a position is exactly what we're comparing between Picto and YI:B.
If you're randomly being hit by a hazard when it appears, you need to learn to position on the stage. If you were being juggled, or thrown to that position, the opponent sent you there in the first place.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Actually, the only legit complain is the wall appearance disturbance (except the line, that's a different story).

Even that by itself is legitimate enough to ban the stage.

But, iirc, resetting a position is exactly what we're comparing between Picto and YI:B.

The ghost resetting the positions is much less frequent and much easier to react to than the walls.

If you're randomly being hit by a hazard when it appears, you need to learn to position on the stage. If you were being juggled, or thrown to that position, the opponent sent you there in the first place.

Alright, I just won't get hit ever. No problem.

 

[Ghostbone]

That's different, though. Halberd's hazards are announced.

Not really, you have 1/2 a second to react to the claw deciding to attack you.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Even that by itself is legitimate enough to ban the stage.

Not really, imo (oh, sweet subjectiveness).

The ghost resetting the positions is much less frequent and much easier to react to than the walls.

Actually is more frequent.
"Easier to react" is subjective.

Alright, I just won't get hit ever. No problem.

By "the opponent sent you there in the first place" I meant he/she was intending to put you in a bad position... At least that's what I do on this stage: throw people outside the "safety zone" when the stage is empty, try to make them hit certain hazards already on it, and fight depending the transformation. Am I missing something?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not really, imo (oh, sweet subjectiveness).

Actually is more frequent.
"Easier to react" is subjective.

Notice that I didn't say the Ghosts are more frequent. I said that the ghosts resetting the positions happens more frequently. That is inarguable, as far as I can see, unless you are playing Super Ledge Bros. Brawl.

And the ghosts are easier to react to because there are less variables. It isn't subjective at all, it is easier to react to the ghost because it has only two variables:
a) What time will it come up
b) Will it go up

Pictochat's hazards have
a) What time will they come up
b) Will they come up
c) Which one will come up
d) Where will they come up

By "the opponent sent you there in the first place" I meant he/she was intending to put you in a bad position... At least that's what I do on this stage: throw people outside the "safety zone" when the stage is empty, try to make them hit certain hazards already on it, and fight depending the transformation. Am I missing something?

You are missing the fact that it is random whether your punish does 10% or 30% and that these situations can occur EVERYTIME someone gets hit. It isn't like Halberd where you might get thrown into the claw... once per match or some ****. Everytime you get hit on Pictochat there is the chance that you will take more damage than you would expect.

 

[John12346]

Not really, you have 1/2 a second to react to the claw deciding to attack you.

Uh, no...

This is what happens in the claw attack scenario:

A sound effect signifying the claw is prepping itself occurs.
The camera zooms out.
The claw begins wiggling around randomly for a good amount of time.
The claw stops, then attacks one random player.

Between the time of the claw stopping and its hitbox actually becoming active, roughly two seconds will pass. Even if you don't know whether or not the claw will attack you, timing the dodge is easy sauce, and you can even shield it if necessary.

 

[WindMajor]

Edit: Dang... ninja'd.

==========

Pictochat is a very adaption heavy stage.

I don't think enough people truly understand how to play the stage, leaving its ban under the URC ruleset to be kind of premature. Even though the timing for the hazards turning on and off aren't set in stone, the groove it follows is 100% consistent (transformations cycle by turning on and off linearly for specific time frames), and that should be sufficient enough of a warning to prepare you for incoming transformations.

I feel that people who complain that walls or hitboxes can suddenly appear, and they are hard to react to which therefore means "Ban!" are people who don't play on this stage with any foresight, which is a critical skill that playing on Pictochat demands. They play this stage on the spur of the moment, and adapt to things immediately as they show up, which unfortunately for them is almost instantly. If something were to "show up" suddenly that didn't favor them, the blame would immediately be cast on the stage, instead of the player's lack of foresight.




In order to play this stage correctly, one must understand the pattern to it:

No transformation > Random Transformation ON > Random Transformation OFF > Repeat from the beginning

Afterwards, one must understand the groove to it.

I know T-Block knows this, but for the sake of example, I'm just gonna assume blank time takes ~10 seconds, and so does each transformation.

Once they learn the pattern and the timing, one must then learn what to expect:

27 different transformations, that don't ever repeat within an 8 minute game, some with walls, hitboxes, and extra platforms.



Once we learn what to expect, we must then understand how to apply it during gameplay.

We know that there is some down time between each transformation that lasts around 10 seconds. During this period, we should be expecting a large multitude of transformations to show up, and thus, be prepared for them.

We know that hitboxes can appear suddenly, which means that during those 10 seconds, we might want to run to a safe zone.

We know that walls might appear suddenly, which means that we would want to make sure we don't get chaingrabbed during those 10 seconds.

We know that our enemy can sometimes put us in positions where properly responding to the transformations might be very difficult or downright impossible, so we would want to battle to control the safe zone during those 10 seconds.

We know that a certain line hazard can screw up recoveries on the left ledge, so we would want to refrain from ledge camping or recovering onto the ledge while the stage is blank.

We know that all of our best and quickest options to defensively react to a hazard is while we're standing on the ground (shield, spot dodge, roll, SHAD, free access to movement in 3 cardinal directions), so in turn, we would like to refrain from being airbourne during the blank transformation, where our only defensive option would be air dodge, while going downward + two cardinal directions.



Again, I don't think enough people play Pictochat with this mentality. I don't ever see matches in which people are cautious and try to avoid getting caught up during those 10 seconds in the blank transformation. I never see people blatantly run back, just to put space between themselves and the opponent. I never see people waiting for the next transformation, then adapting to it. I never see players playing intelligently with their surroundings. All I ever see when people play in Pictochat is a constant battle between one player and another, playing independently of the terrain changing around them.

I think that this act of constantly adapting to your surroundings is a key element to the stage, and one that simply isn't being done correctly enough times. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to constantly do this, given the nature of the game. This is Smash after all, the game where numerous things happen at once, and all we ever do is multi-task. Even though the elements of the stage can be random, I think that the timing of the transformations and the amount of different transformations make it reasonable to have a certain gameplan to cover all possible options, and if not, then to make decisions that minimize as many risks as possible. You know, risk management skills.

My $0.02 on Pictochat.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The safe zone only exists if there is one player on the screen.

The presence of an opponent removes any notion of a "safe zone".

 

[ぱみゅ]

Notice that I didn't say the Ghosts are more frequent. I said that the ghosts resetting the positions happens more frequently. That is inarguable, as far as I can see, unless you are playing Super Ledge Bros. Brawl.

That said, frequency alone is not a good argument.
"How much is too much?" (that one big lesson SuSa left)

And the ghosts are easier to react to because there are less variables. It isn't subjective at all, it is easier to react to the ghost because it has only two variables:
a) What time will it come up
b) Will it go up

Pictochat's hazards have
a) What time will they come up
b) Will they come up
c) Which one will come up
d) Where will they come up

Picto's and c) and d), are the same, lol
Again, "how much is too much?"
I can't really think of something deeper than that atm...

You are missing the fact that it is random whether your punish does 10% or 30% and that these situations can occur EVERYTIME someone gets hit. It isn't like Halberd where you might get thrown into the claw... once per match or some ****. Everytime you get hit on Pictochat there is the chance that you will take more damage than you would expect.

I'm looking for the odds to make my reward bigger.
did I get it? ****YEAH
I do not get it, fight continues as normal.
My opponents get it, he got lucky, just as he would if he got saved by a ghost.




Also, great write-up there, Twikie

 

[Ghostbone]

Uh, no...

This is what happens in the claw attack scenario:

A sound effect signifying the claw is prepping itself occurs.
The camera zooms out.
The claw begins wiggling around randomly for a good amount of time.
The claw stops, then attacks one random player.

Between the time of the claw stopping and its hitbox actually becoming active, roughly two seconds will pass. Even if you don't know whether or not the claw will attack you, timing the dodge is easy sauce, and you can even shield it if necessary.

Note I specifically said deciding to attack you.

And it's not only about avoiding it, it's avoiding your opponent punishing your for avoiding it, the claw can often decide games in edge-guarding situations, just because it randomly targets the player off-stage recovering, rather than the one edge-guarding.

You air-dodge to avoid it? Your opponent punishes your air-dodge, or you die if you were off-stage.
You shield to avoid it? If you're on the platform, your opponent gets free shield pressure, if you were on the ground, free grab.
You spot-dodge/roll? Your opponent gets a free punish.

 

[John12346]

No... because the opponent can't possibly know whether or not the claw is going to attack him or her...

There's enough time to dodge the claw, but definitely not enough to realize it's not targeting you and actually capitalize on it.

 

[WindMajor]

The safe zone only exists if there is one player on the screen.

The presence of an opponent removes any notion of a "safe zone".

Ummm... what?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think that's a fancy way to say "I'm too focused on my opponent to concentrate on my position and the timer".

 

[WindMajor]

Grim, I'm talking about the safe zone from Pictochat's hazards. That safe zone will always exist, unless we decide to modify the geometry in Pictochat.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The safe zone from Pictochat's hazards is not safe from your opponent i.e. there is no safe zone

I don't know if your strategy on Battlefield is to stand in one place and let the opponent run into you over and over, but when I play I like to move around so my opponent doesn't get a positional advantage over me.

At top level play, one players is ALWAYS going to be affected randomly by the hazards.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's why I said I would be looking for it.
It is a strategy, one with a great impact on the game, but both players are aware of it, and both would be trying to make opponent to be affected by it.

That means that, other than the intended reward boost, the only other topic here is the situation reset, which isn't any worse than YI:B's


Alternatively:
People seems to be looking at it like "I don't wanna get hit by hazards", instead of "I'll make my oponent to get hit by hazards"....

 

[WindMajor]

The safe zone from Pictochat's hazards is not safe from your opponent i.e. there is no safe zone

Again, that's not the point. The point is that there is a position on the map where hazards will not suddenly hurt you. The position exists, and it is safe from Pictochat's hazards.

What you're doing is adding another factor and saying it's not safe. It's like me trying to mention that the safezone from the fish in Summit is anywhere on stage, which is true, but you insist on taking things further and try to claim that the area isn't a safe zone from the hazard because of the existence of an added opponent. In other words, no where is safe.

You're getting ahead of me, and because of it, we're talking about two different things.

I don't know if your strategy on Battlefield is to stand in one place and let the opponent run into you over and over, but when I play I like to move around so my opponent doesn't get a positional advantage over me.

At top level play, one players is ALWAYS going to be affected randomly by the hazards.

Okay so now that I have explained the existence of a position of the map where the hazards won't affect it (the safe zone), now we are put in a situation where we have to battle for that safe zone. The conditions are that you have until the entire duration of the blank transformation to control that zone because it puts you at a territorial advantage, which is something you want. You don't want to be in an unsafe area, you want the safe zone.

From this point on, arguments would be basically identical to claiming different safe zones in PTAD. The platform removes you from the car hazards (similar to the blank page in Picto), then after a set period of time, you are put in a situation where you are at risk of getting hit by a hazard (a Pictochat transformation appears), but there is an area where you won't get hit, which you must claim. In doing so, you enter a battle for that position, which is something that we want to encourage. The person who successfully controls the position gets the reward of being safe from the hazard. On the other hand, the person who did not get it puts himself at a risk of being hurt.

I don't see anything wrong with this, and nor when I translate this to Pictochat language. Battle emerges, someone comes out victorious, the other gets punished. Nothing new, nothing broken, it's all in good strategy, unless you're against players capitalizing on hazards.

On another note, arguments like these...

At top level play, one players is ALWAYS going to be affected randomly by the hazards.

...are very misleading. One, you don't mention how the one player is going to get affected (negatively/positively, a lot/a little, opponent interaction/accidental, etc). Second, you make the assumption that something will ALWAYS happen, which is false. There is no proof in the world that can support that claim because that proof doesn't exist. The claim is baseless, and that's all there is to it. Last but not least, you don't mention what top level of play has to do with anything. I have no idea where your point is going.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My point is this: A stage where players fight for random rewards as frequently as on Pictochat is not fit for competition.

The situation is very translatable to WarioWare, not that I think of it.

 

[T-block]

Too lazy to go find it... all I remember is that there's a contradiction in your defense of YI:B and your desire to look at things on a fundamental level.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That sounds true, T-Block

 

[theunabletable]

Again, that's not the point. The point is that there is a position on the map where hazards will not suddenly hurt you. The position exists, and it is safe from Pictochat's hazards.

What you're doing is adding another factor and saying it's not safe. It's like me trying to mention that the safezone from the fish in Summit is anywhere on stage, which is true, but you insist on taking things further and try to claim that the area isn't a safe zone from the hazard because of the existence of an added opponent. In other words, no where is safe.

Well what he might be saying, I don't really know but what I would say, is that the safe zone is so completely irrelevant in a real match, because when there's another player in the game, it removes the whole point of the safe zone.

Yeah if there wasn't an opponent, you could avoid all the hazards, but because there's an opponent, you're often forced into positions where SOMETIMES you're punished for making the smartest move, and SOMETIMES you are not.

That's not intelligent luck manipulation on your opponent's part, that's just luck.